What if there's no Catholic or Orthodox churches nearby?

[Splayd]

Hey guys,

I'd appreciate the perspective of Orthodox and Catholics about this.

In the early years of European settlement, Australia had no Catholic or Orthodox priests. There were certainly some here that professed to be Catholic but several generations were never baptised, never partook of the Eucharist and never attended a liturgy of any description because there were no priests here. In such a scenario, was it better that they remained seperate, living their whole lives without fellowship, teaching and liturgy or would they have been better off attending the Anglican services?

Where I live currently there is no Orthodox church. There used to be, but for the last few months I've been phoning an unmanned answering machine trying to find out where and when the services are. As it turns out they've gone. The closest church is hours away. In your eyes, am I better off not attending church at all, rather than attending a Protestant church?

Peace.

[a_ntv]

Where I live currently there is no Orthodox church. There used to be, but for the last few months I've been phoning an unmanned answering machine trying to find out where and when the services are. As it turns out they've gone. The closest church is hours away. In your eyes, am I better off not attending church at all, rather than attending a Protestant church?


If you can you shall attend a Catholic Church (there are almost everywhere inthe wold)
Otherwise you can attend an Eastern Rite Catholic Church (look in directories for: Maronite, Melikite, Ruthenians, Chaldean, Malankars, Malabars....)

Or you could attend the Assirian Church of the East (they have a diocesys in Australia)

To look for EO Churches it is quite easy, simply look in directories for Orthodox..

Or you can attend Oriental Orthodox Church (look in directories for: Copts, Armenians, Syrians..)

Nowadays, there are many communities in Australia of EC and OO: these people are recently escaped (and still escape) from the Middle East because of the War.

P.S.: to attend do not means to take Communion...
PP.SS.: I was told by my priest, that if I cannot find a CC or a EC in a couple of hours by car (the Assirian Church is a alternative), look for EO or OO, or stay home and pray a rosary.

[Splayd]

Thanks a_ntv

I always appreciate your responses.

In truth there is a Roman Catholic church in my town and as a teacher in their school, I'm very much a part of that community.

None of the others you listed are anywhere near my town though. The closest is a Greek Orthodox church 200km away.

Apart from all of that - I'm really just curious as to the Catholic and Orthodox perspective on the matter of attending other churches. When I was teaching my Religion class it struck me as odd that those Catholics in Australia's early history would opt to live their entire lives without baptism, eucharist, liturgies etc... rather than attend the Anglican church. Now - I realise that there was also a lot of cultural and political forces at play there. The Catholics were mostly Irish and Catholicism was a huge part of their culture, while the English were their oppressors etc... BUT, it did make me wonder where Catholics and Orthodox might stand on this issue today.

If there were no Catholic or Orthodox churches in their area, might they consider attending a Protestant church (perhaps an Anglican or Lutheran) or would they still prefer to avoid church altogether? I'd imagine it's not a practical concern for the Catholics and Orthodox on these forums, but it has been a very real issue in the past and is bound to be an issue for some people somewhere. What's your perspective?

[Splayd]

PP.SS.: I was told by my priest, that if I cannot find a CC or a EC in a couple of hours by car (the Assirian Church is a alternative), look for EO or OO, or stay home and pray a rosary.Thanks again. This is consistent with what the early Australian Catholics did. While they had no church to attend they still remained very dedicated to praying the rosary.

[a_ntv]

None of the others you listed are anywhere near my town though. The closest is a Greek Orthodox church 200km away.
I think that there are not many Greek Orthodox churches in Australia, because there was not a huge immigration from EO countries.
But there was a huge immigration in Australia of EC and OO, so probably it is not too difficoult to find their churches, even if these churches are not listed under the name 'Orthodox' in directories.
I've not idea of how large is Australia, or where you life.

For any catholic it is suggested sometime to attend the EC churches (even if there is a Catholic Roman rite nearby): you can take the Communion, the liturgy is valid for the Sunday obbligation, and you can breath the eastern and oriental rites with their spirituality: it is a way to enrich your faith.


Apart from all of that - I'm really just curious as to the Catholic and Orthodox perspective on the matter of attending other churches. When I was teaching my Religion class it struck me as odd that those Catholics in Australia's early history would opt to live their entire lives without baptism, eucharist, liturgies etc... rather than attend the Anglican church.

Back to your answer: the point is a valid Eucharist.
The Sunday meeting is the Eucharistic Sunday: my parish priest told me that, if there are no actually catholic churches available, we shall go to attend a Liturgy where there is a true Eucharist (even without taking the Communion): this is the case of EO or OO (with the Assirian Church it is different: we are officially allowed also to take Communion if no catholic churches are available).

Ok, let us consider what happen if there are only protestant churches (without a valid Eucharistic): this is the important case of many catholic communities (particulary in South America) that are still now without a priest: we catholics shall meet toghether the Sunday to pray only the Liturgy of the Word (the first part of a Mass), or simply a rosary, under the leading of a deacon or even of a lay. The Vatican have published a liturgy to be used in these cases (obviously without the consacration of the Eucharist).

Why dont attend a protestant service? because it has not a valid Eucharist and so there is no any improvment rathan than a catholic liturgy of the Word, while many doctrinal mistakes are teached.
And the Sunday attendance IS the church that is met, so it is something very important.

That do not means that catholics are not allowed to attend, in some cases, a protestant service: sometime it is positive to pray together, but you shall know a bit of doctrine to recognize the doctrinal mistakes that are present in the prayers and in the sermon, and anyway your usual sunday community cannot be a protestant one, or you are a protestant.

[Splayd]

That's a great response a_ntv!

You've clarified the Catholic perspective beautifully. That's not to say I entirely agree with it, but I have a much better understanding of it and that's exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks.

I'm curious if any Orthodox christians might be able to inform me if it's the same for them. As I've perceived it there seems to be a slight difference in your attitudes towards each other. While there's certainly some mutual acknowledgement, it seems to me that many Catholics almost consider the Orthodox to be part of their church, while many Orthodox seem (to me) to view the Catholics more like a step-sister. I'm probably way off or (at best) very vague in my understanding, but that's how I perceive the relationship between you.

Would an Orthodox member be able to enlighten me as to your position if there were no Orthodox churches nearby? Would you attend a Catholic church? If there weren't any, would you attend a Protestant church?

[MariaRegina]

I would stay at home and then try to visit an Orthodox Church at least once a year.

Some people who live far away, bring their motor home and spend the night at the church. In that way, they can attend Saturday Great Vespers and then Sunday Divine Liturgy. They make a weekend of it. I knew one family who did this regularly.

Another young lady who moved away from her family, comes and visits with them for the weekend and spends the night with them, attending the church.

Others have started mission churches after locating other Orthodox who live nearby. In that way, they can have Reader Services and an occasional Divine Liturgy when a visiting priest comes around.

[Paisley]

Perhaps put in a request for an Orthodox mission to be placed in your area. I have heard this can be done.

[OnTheWay]

We shouldn't worship with the heterodox, as such going to a protestant church is not really an option. I would suggest visting the Church that's closest as often as you can, even if it's only a once a year visit for Pascha.

[choirfiend]

The Orthodox DO have a different view of the RCC. We have a different teaching on Truth. If the RCC position is that we have a "valid" eucharist because we have not changed dogma since the break between our churches, because we still teach true things even if we are wrong about following the pope and the other doctrinal differences between the OC and the RCC.

The OC position is that NONE of the teaching of the Church is "optional" for sustaining a "valid" eucharist/sacraments. We cannot accept the RCC as "valid" because we have no teaching on "validity" the way they do. ALL belief must be held in-common to be in-communion. There can be no conflict, no contradiction, no parallel doctrines that never meet. We see the Body of Christ as undivided, with no part set against the other .

Where the RCC sees us as just not following in their footsteps, left somewhere back on the path, the OC views the RCC as having walked off on a tangent, having left the path behind.

[authiodionitist]

I want to firmly agree with my Orthodox brothers and sisters. Request a mission, try to visit an Orthodox parish once a year, stay away from heterodox worship.

[Silentchapel]

:sorry: I also agree.
Remember, if you 'go Catholic', I think that RCC allows its memebers to participate in Orthodox Eucharist under certain extreme circumstances. However, the Orthodox would never give the Eucharist to a non-Orthodox - these circumstances, dire as they may be, do not heal schisms and teachings seen as wrong by the Orthodox.

[kamikat]

I can tell you what my family did. My grandfather was a member of the US Diplomatic Corp for most of his career and then worked for US AID for the rest of his career. Most of the time, he was stationed in Pakistan and Afghanistan, where there were very few Christian churches of any kind. Thier "home" Orthodox bishop and the local Catholic bishop gave them permission to receive communion once per year in the closest Catholic church (several hours drive away) as long as whenever they were home, they attended Orthodox services and received communion and confession with an Orthodox priest. They did their best to keep the faith, but it's less than ideal. However, today, it would be a little easier. There are services broadcast over internet radios, communication with distant priests is easier. There are more English language resources for teaching children the faith.

[a_ntv]

There are services broadcast over internet radios, communication with distant priests is easier.

A service broadcasted on internet, tv or whichever other way, can be very instructive and usefull.

But it is NOT the same of life Liturgy. not only for the the meaning of a community that get united, but also for the phisical nearness to the Eucharist.

Of course it is better to eat/drink the Eucharist, but if you cannot (because lack of fast or because you are in a EO/OO church), you can always adore the Eucharist and take it spiritually. But not by broadcast.
If the RCC position is that we have a "valid" eucharist because we have not changed dogma since the break between our churches, because we still teach true things even if we are wrong about following the pope and the other doctrinal differences between the OC and the RCC.

No. The CC position is that you have a "valid" Eucharist because you have bishops with a true apostolic succession and so you are a True Church and not a denomination.

Noone have a perfect faith, nor a pefect doctrine.
God is stronger than our faith and our doctrine (and even of our moral).
The Eucharist is a gift of God for the whole community: it cannot depend on priest/bishop: if there is lack in the priest, God covers it.

Christ was so humile to be born in a unworthy cave: He is also so humile to became the Bread by the prayer of a unworthy priest (any priest are unworthy, as any cave is unworthy...)

The only requirment is the epiclesis of the Eucharist shall be prayed by who, by the sacrament of the ordination, has the ecclesial ministry and grace to be the mouth of the Body of Christ.

[authiodionitist]

you can always adore the Eucharist and take it spiritually.


We don't do Eucharistic adoration, btw. Unless you want to count the preparations to receive the Sacrament as such. But we don't talk about/do that.

[eoe]

What I would do:
1 - develop a relationship with the priest of the EO parish that was 200km away
2 - get a concrete rule of prayer from him
3 - have weekly contact with that priest
4 - learn to chant the typica as well as the hours
5 - get to that parish as often as was possible to participate in the sacraments.


You aren't aware of this but Orthodoxy is not something that we do once a week. While the weekly liturgy is certainly the "peak" of the week it is not the beginning or the end of the Orthodox experience.

If you would like to experience this - just one day pray the liturgy of the hours and see for yourself how fulfilling it is.

CLICK HERE (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/services_nopriest.aspx)

and then

CLICK HERE (http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/horologion.htm)

Combined with the daily readings, (http://goarch.org/en/chapel/OnlineChapel.html)all of this adds up to a very satisfying activity.

[a_ntv]

We don't do Eucharistic adoration, btw. Unless you want to count the preparations to receive the Sacrament as such. But we don't talk about/do that.

But you are rightly teached to go to the Sunday Liturgy even if, at least up to a few time ago, the most of faithfulls do not take Communion...

[Akathist]

If I were in this situation, I would not attend any church except to travel to the closest Eastern Orthodox Church as often as possible.

I would also work very very hard to find a way to move closer as soon as possible.

Then I would make sure that I attended for the services before Pascha (arranging to have confession the day before) then staying in that town until I was able to make the trip back home after Pascha. (Our Pascha services are from around 10 pm and the meal often isn't over until 3 am so driving home directly from it might not be ideal.)

If at all possible, I would travel more often then this and would arrange in advance for confession before the DL probably by traveling there on Saturday and staying locally over night.

Then I would do a Reader's Service at home and would follow the advice of my Priest about fasting and prayers, etc. I would try to be as much a part of an Orthodox community as I could over the internet and via phone.

I would not attend another church though, except for things like family weddings and funerals and the occassional special event I am invited to and need to be polite about.

[Renton405]

The Orthodox DO have a different view of the RCC. We have a different teaching on Truth. If the RCC position is that we have a "valid" eucharist because we have not changed dogma since the break between our churches, because we still teach true things even if we are wrong about following the pope and the other doctrinal differences between the OC and the RCC.

The OC position is that NONE of the teaching of the Church is "optional" for sustaining a "valid" eucharist/sacraments. We cannot accept the RCC as "valid" because we have no teaching on "validity" the way they do. ALL belief must be held in-common to be in-communion. There can be no conflict, no contradiction, no parallel doctrines that never meet. We see the Body of Christ as undivided, with no part set against the other .

Where the RCC sees us as just not following in their footsteps, left somewhere back on the path, the OC views the RCC as having walked off on a tangent, having left the path behind.

The EO and the RCC are in union together on many things and they both recognize each other..

It will be a wonderfull day when the EO and the RCC FULLY come in union together though.. Imagine how powerful christian unity will be then.. This is what Ive been hoping the RCC does get fixed in this lifetime. A pre-schism Catholic Church :) :crossrc: :liturgy: :priest:

If there are no CC in your area I would just drive the distance a few times a month. It may be a sacrafice but it will be worth it in the end.. dont settle for a protestant church, because there is no eucharist and they teach incorrect doctrine(Martin Luther).

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I was told by my priest, that if I cannot find a CC or a EC in a couple of hours by car ( look for EO or OO, or stay home and pray a rosary.


:(

[a_ntv]

:(

Dont be sad. :)

But the point is a valid Eucharist, that unfortunatly many christian denominations do not have, simply because the lack of apostolic succession (that is, in my opinion, and not only in my opinion, the higher difficoulty in west ecumenism).

The core of the Sunday service is the Eucharist.
Without Eucharist, which Mass it is?

If in a denomination there is a valid Eucharist, you could also take the risk to lissen in the prayers and in the sermons some theological ideas not completly correct.
But if there is not a valid Eucharist, you get only the risk.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Dont be sad.


I'm not sure I can feel otherwise.
I'm not offended, just sad.


But the point is a valid Eucharist, that unfortunatly most christian denominations do not have.


Well, we can't discuss this here. But, IMHO, not receiving the Eucharist in a Protestant church would not be worse than not receiving it by staying home, but that's again something we can't discuss here. Worshiping with Protestants does not require accepting His Holy Sacrament - Protestants permit people to refuse it. If you remain in your seat, no one will force you to do anything.

I think you might be shocked that the Scripture readings in a typical Protestant church - the OT, Psalm, Epistle and Gospel readings - are all pretty sound and in the case of my Lutheran church, usually identical to the readings at the Catholic church. Many of the hymns in a Protestant church are quite sound and are often sung at Catholic churches, too. And my guess is that 95% of the sermons I've heard would have nothing whatsoever objectionable to a Catholic, in fact could be in a priest's sermon at a Catholic church and be just as appropriate and welcomed. The Lord's Prayer MAY have a sentance SOME Catholics don't use but adding that shouldn't be TOO offensive I would think, so offensive as to suggest one should stay home; IMHO there's nothing heretical or uncatholic about "for thine is the kingdom and power and the glory forever..." The Creed is identical. Yet, it's the view of this priest that it's better to stay home than to listen to the Scriptures read by a Protestant, than to pray The Lord's Prayer with Protestants, etc. It's better not to worship or listen or pray at all. Better to stay home, he says. I find that sad, but I'm sure we should just leave it at that. And it's just my view there, we all must obey our own conscience in this regard. And I'd never advise anyone to go against the spiritual advise of their pastor.

For the record, I consider it doesn't offend me at all to have the Scriptures read by a Catholic or to pray the Lord's Prayer with Catholics or to confess the Creed with Catholics or to sing songs with Catholics. I have no problem with that at all. I'd rather do this with Catholics than to stay home - those being my only options. I would not particiate in the Eucharist at the Catholic church but only because I am not so permitted. But again, I would not attempt to change anyone's convinctions here or suggest anyone act contrary to their conscience or spiritual advise. I just found it sad.


Sorry for the intrusion.


Pax!


- Josiah

[Mick116]

Would an Anglican Catholic parish (of the TAC, for example) ever be an option, especially for an isolated Roman Catholic? As far as I can see, we share an identical faith.

I'll be moving to a small town early next year, and will no longer be able to attend a TAC parish. My options will probably be either to attend a more "liberalised" Anglican parish, or to join the RCC (I'm leaning towards the latter). I don't think there are any Orthodox churches nearby, otherwise I would seriously consider that as an option (I was introduced to catholic Christianity via an investigation of Eastern Orthodoxy, and I deeply appreciate the Eastern liturgy).

[kamikat]

Personally, I'd be concerned about an Anglican Church. After leaving the RCC and before committing to the Orthodox Church, I investigated the local Anglican churches. Most of them had women pastors, which I was not comfortable with. There was one church that had traditional music, a male pastor and even looked like a real church instead of a big room with bare walls. The only problem is that it was a dying parish. They had recently canceled their Sunday School because there weren't enough families and most of the parishoners were elderly. It just didn't seem like the right place for my family. The traditional parishes are dying and the more contemporary churches don't fit with my beliefs.