CALLING ALL MESSIANIC/Jewish MEN! [open]

[Sephania]

Note: This thread is for Messianic/Jewish Men only please.


Now that I got your attention and in one thread ( see torah we do have some around here ;) ) I would like to discuss some things with you.

What do you see as the leadership role of a Messianic Husband/Father?

Are you the priest of your home? How is that established?

Are you the head in the family? What do you feel about this responsibility? Are you comfortable with it?

Are you comfortable in this role of headship, of the responsibility for your wife, your family, to the L-rD?

How was your upbringing ( as this will definatly have a bearing on how this is seen).?

Thanks Guys, ! Now speak your hearts and Us ladies will sit back and listen, maybe ask a question or two, but leave it mostly for you to chat and share in.

[P_G]

What do you see as the leadership role of a Messianic Husband/Father?

Our roll is no different than any other believer in that we are to provide for our families and guide them and protect them. This both physically and spiritually


Are you the priest of your home? How is that established?

You bet. You do this by walking the walk not talking the talk. Your children must see you pray and study. You must pray over your wife and children and you must lead a blameless life. Then you can teach them to pray and how to avoid sin and how to keep Torah not before.


Are you the head in the family? What do you feel about this responsibility? Are you comfortable with it?


Yes I am the head of the family with no questions. That is my job the one that HaShem gave me. If the family comes under attack its my job to take the hit. Being the head of the family is not being the BOSS of the family it is being the Master servant. To lead and to love. Being head means that you are to protect and lay down your life not just physically but spirtually. You have to give time and be gentle yet firm. The Rod of Y'shua is what is needed not your own notions.


Are you comfortable in this role of headship, of the responsibility for your wife, your family, to the L-rD?
When miss Bonnie dies one day I shall pine away forever she is the most true tangable gift G-d has given me. It humbles me that he would allow me to take care of her needs.


How was your upbringing ( as this will definatly have a bearing on how this is seen).?
I was brought up as a 3rd row every Sunday and twice on Christmas and Easter devote Catholic. And you better like it cause thats what our family is George we are Catholic and we will always be Catholic.

Sigh it did not stick so good.
I am the black sheep

Ohhhhhhhhhhh I just wanna be a sheep bah bah bah bahhh
(kids song)


Thanks Guys, ! Now speak your hearts and Us ladies will sit back and listen, maybe ask a question or two, but leave it mostly for you to chat and share in.


On behalf of the men it is nice that the wife allowed us a moment to speak - umm even if it is some one elses wife

Now I shall go and see if I have permission to post this and say I am in charge of things ;)

PG

[ChavaK]

[quote=Zayit;28993062]
Are you the priest of your home? How is that established? [quote]

Zayit can you please explain what you mean by
"the priest of your home?" I understand priest
only in the kohanic sense, am and not sure I
understand what you mean by this....

thanks,
Chava ( a lady with questions :) )











/quote]

[Athaliamum]

I have a question,

What advice do other men have for a wife whose husband wont step up to these things? How can he be inspired? How do I get him to take the initative is something... lets settle for anything to do with decision making and the spiritual welfare of my family?

[Steve Petersen]

Most of the men I have met in the Messianic Movement have domineering wives. The women are the ones who run the show.

[HadassahSukkot]

Most of the men I have met in the Messianic Movement have domineering wives. The women are the ones who run the show.
Please forgive me if I just stuck my nose in the wrong place.. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/nerdy/flowrs.gif

I have a question in relation to this.

How are the women domineering? Is it like: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/fighting/action-smiley-051.gif and a man being "whipped" so to speak?

Or is it just that women tend to be the only ones participating and the men are afraid if they step up to the plate that the women won't relinquish...?

I'm just a teensy confused and I want to understand.

You see, I grew up, and women were practically the only ones in the church with their children, because the men were in the military and on call or on duty and couldn't come, so it was mainly women doing everything..

Some had problems because when the men were home they were not the head, and when the men were gone, they were- - so it created some division.

My question is - How can we fix it?

There really isn't discipleship. How can we get that changed?

Me being "so young" and all, adults think I'm either "too cute" or "questioning authority" when I ask "why do we not do ________ like scripture says ________" or "who would be a good person to talk to as far as __________?"

I'm the only one of my family attending schul. I have no one to ask BUT my elders. I can ask Andreas when I'm home and he's awake the next day (we have 7 hours difference), but otherwise I won't grow if I can't ask questions.

Then I wonder, am I domineering? Am I of all those bad qualities?

I mean, I'm opinionatied and sometimes bossy.. but I guess that comes with the territory of being the first born and having to look after two others... but how do I fix it or recognise if i've stepped out of bounds unless someone tactfully tells me?


As you can see i'm full of questions, and would love input from someone who isn't afraid to put his foot down where it needs to be (and not at my rear please.. I don't need a swift kick. :P) ...

I love ya'll and I respect you, and that's why I ask http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/Love/0031.gif

[Sephania]

Most of the men I have met in the Messianic Movement have domineering wives. The women are the ones who run the show.
Could that be because the men aren't living in their G-d given positions as head of the family?

[Steve Petersen]

Could that be because the men aren't living in their G-d given positions as head of the family?
Or because their wives won't let them?

Generally women say they want men to be leaders, but then do all they can to undermine them. There is some seriously strange psychology at work there.

[Henaynei]

insecurity does strange things..... and creates deep motivations...

[Sephania]

Hi Henaynei,
May I ask if you are speaking of the men or the wives? :)

[insaneinthebrain]

I'd say this thread is successfully derailed. ;)

[Sephania]

Now we just need to figure out if it was the men or women, or if the women will blame the men or the men the women? :)

[Henaynei]

Hi Henaynei,
May I ask if you are speaking of the men or the wives? :) As a woman I an ill equipped to speak for the men....

[P_G]

Maybe the problem is that sometimes men think that they are part of the world and listen too much to what the world says we are supposed to be.

Think about TV comercials (gahhh I hate the one eyed monster)
If you see a couple on a comercial is the man ever painted as anything less than a bumbling idiot?

PG

[insaneinthebrain]

If you see a couple on a comercial is the man ever painted as anything less than a bumbling idiot?

PG

Yes, he's painted as a perverted bumbling idiot.

[HadassahSukkot]

:(

I do agree that there is insecurity on both ends, as well as other factors that have kept men from stepping up, or women from stepping down -- and any working-together.

That being said, I had some questions I stated, and I wonder if anyone has any answers to any of them?

When subjects like this come up, I do get a bit insecure.
Granted, I've not been with my shul in about a month due to my car situation- and I am hardly with my fiance, considering work, distance and the time zone difference - so I can't really ask him, and when I do, he gets upset that I am become so insecure over such a small matter...

I do need to know if I contribute any to the lack of support from the men's side or not... and I feel that by the answers I get, I can determine if I am doing any of the things mentioned; whereas without answers I go "well, is it me?" and I have no mirror or image to compare my actions to.

I guess it doesn't really help that I don't have any peers to compare myself to either... and the ones I do are relatives, and we believe very differently from each other..

[P_G]

There is an old saying that goes something like if you repeat something enough times it becomes a fact. Or at least has the appearance of fact.

Males in todays world are shown to be completely incompetent and it has been said enough times that we feel this is a fact. So both women and men seek to make this a reality in their lives since it's already a "fact"

So if a man tells me he cannot be the spiritual head of his household I would retort that he needs to get his "facts" straight.

Look in the instruction manual!

And again I want to really emphasize that being the spiritual head of your household does not give you carte blanch to be a tyrant and mean but rather to lead as Y'shua led. Humbly and with grace and love.

PG

[Steve Petersen]

There is an old saying that goes something like if you repeat something enough times it becomes a fact. Or at least has the appearance of fact.

Males in todays world are shown to be completely incompetent and it has been said enough times that we feel this is a fact. So both women and men seek to make this a reality in their lives since it's already a "fact"

So if a man tells me he cannot be the spiritual head of his household I would retort that he needs to get his "facts" straight.

Look in the instruction manual!

And again I want to really emphasize that being the spiritual head of your household does not give you carte blanch to be a tyrant and mean but rather to lead as Y'shua led. Humbly and with grace and love.

PG
Great theory!

[Henaynei]

in shul:

I am a strong opponent to women taking on those things which traditionally belong to the men; i.e. wearing tallitot, wearing kippot, reading from the Torah, handling the Torah, etc..... it seems all too often that women are demanding to do all that men do - what space do we leave them to BE men? and WHY do we do it? are we so displeased with and uncomfortable with being women, that we are driven to redefine it?

[ContraMundum]

Just like amongst us Jews!:)
...which is why you have to sit upstairs. :)

[ContraMundum]

To put my two cents in, I think the doctrine is the cause of the imbalance- it always is. For example, most Messianic congregations would have no segregation in seating at worship (although the earliest Messianics certainly did), would have no problem with women actively vocal in worship (again- the early believers did have a problem with that) , whether it be preaching or prophesy or leading worship, and lastly the current world-view of gender roles has infiltrated religions across the board.

In this sense, Messianic congregations inherited too much from evangelicalism and not enough from ancient orthodoxy.

As for me- I never had the problems presented here. I was head of the family, both servant and mentor, and yet still democratic and submissive in love to my spouse. Now of course I don't have to worry about it any more.

[HadassahSukkot]

I have no issue about sitting seperate. In fact, that is one of the main things I am putting my foot down on about my wedding. It will be a traditional orthodox style wedding with men on one side and women on t'other.

In fact, I have usherettes, so that they usher the women in, and the men usher the men in to seats. No worries about a "bride side" or "groom side" -- (esp since the groom side is slim pickin's) -- just segregation.

As far as the reception, I want part of the dancing to be segregated, Fiddler on the roof style, and then the rope being dropped down and put away, and dancing with the handkerchiefs.

My mom said "people won't.. husbands and wives will want to sit together" but I say "if they're ushered in, they have no say -it will be explained in the order of service"

I have been called up to Torah, and I blow the shofar when I'm asked, as well as I have been called up to carry the Torah twice by our Levite-Elder.

It is an honor, and I feel I am not out of place (nor improper) in doing so respectfully and not asking for that place. Had I asked for it, I would not be shocked to hear "no". I don't at all expect the same treatment elsewhere, but this my family and how we feel we are led. if it is truly improper, I know Y'shua will correct it in us and it will stop.

As for a tallit, I do not at all feel comfortable about that. However I wear Tzitziot due to the command in scripture (and I tie them).

I am still very uneasy about women teaching the congregation. Testimonies, sure.. Teaching... ehh.

In an all woman's service - sure! men and women... especially when uncovered... no...

In fact, I've been asked if I would teach and I've turned them down on several occasions. I give input during Midrash and am the one who is handed things to Drash out and investigate because I love that -- but I don't teach on it.

I may email out "hey, did you see this?" but I don't usually take it further.

Might write a book - but teach in a congregational setting? No.

Sure, I wish women would take on a more Titus 2/Timothy type mother/daugther teaching mode, but I am unsure if I will see it in this life at all...

I've lacked discipleship, this I know. It's been me and G-d and that's about it, other than people saying "where'd you learn that?" and "here, read this and get back to me"...

So I've had to figure it out on my own and adjust my life accordingly.
Unfortunately, it's been the same with the kids at schul too.. all of us who have gravitated there.. and we've yet to really have *anyone* take us completely under their wing to learn from.

Sure I have "second parents" there that look after me and make sure I get home ok, and I house-sit for them, but discipleship . . . no.


So how do we fix the dominatrix spirit that is so often present with women in many congregations? Do we just say "ok this is it- women, sit here, men over here!" and then "SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH services are starting!" ?

Or do we rather step up to the task and do some hard core teaching on the subject, let it soak up and then say "ok we laid the groundwork, here is where we are going from now on"?

I wish someone would say something...! Because I think people are getting ticked off about me asking..

[Henaynei]

I wish someone would say something...! Because I think people are getting ticked off about me asking.. I know the feeling....

[Sephania]

I do wish my congregation had separate seating. What really gets me sometimes is that you are in service and your focus should be................?

G-d of course! and you look around and the men and women are holding hands or the man has his arm around his wife like it is Saturday afternoon at the movies! Sometimes I've seen the wife or husband even so comfortable in this posture that they have nodded over and fallen asleep!

To me that is so disrespectful.

As far as the things mentioned:

Torah reading - should be for men unless a bat mitzvah
Tallit wearing -women wear a distinctly feminine one, not a mans, and no dancing around with it!

Handling the torah - I think when brought around it should be reverenced, with tzitziot or siddur, or a bend of the knee and if a woman is 'clean' I see no reason why she can't help in opening the Ark or dressing the scroll, as long as she is properly dressed.

Blowing the shofar, I see this as a weapon of G-d and a commandment that was reserved for the priests and all priests were men so, I believe this is a headship, leadership thing, the man has the authority of the home, or should and the unclean spirits know this.

In relation to this let me tell a little story.

A friend of mine separated from her husband because he was not in fellowship after much discipleship. She went to stay with some members of the congregation. These members are fairly new believers and Messianic even newer. Now recently the woman bought a shofar, because she felt that the L-RD told her to.

While up one late one night , my friend and this woman were up talking when they heard a noise, this noise was coming from the ceiling. It sounded like scratching sounds, like little feet. They first thought it might be mice because it was an old house, but quickly dismissed that because of a recent fire that part of the house had been rebuilt and there was no way anything could be there. The sound got louder, and louder and sounded as if it was coming from the perimeter of the ceiling to the center, directly over where they were sitting.
So the woman says, I am going to get my shofar and blow it. She did, and they prayed, and the sound grew quieter...........but it never went away.

Now the thing is , here husband was upstairs, in bed and she never went to him to tell him what was happening and get him to take charge and authority over this manifestation. They knew they didn’t' have to listen to her because her husband was in the house and she was not alone.

The spirits know exactly the order of things and the headship given all the way back to Adam. And Satan has tried all kinds of ways to keep men from rightfully fulfilling this role.

[ContraMundum]

Isn't this thread for men? LOL :)

ants- you are called up to the Torah??? :confused: :eek:

I'm curious- is it that normal nowadays in some Messianic congregations to have a Reformed Jewish/Evangelicalist approach to gender roles?

This may be due to my upbringing, but everytime I see a woman with a Tallit or tzitzis in general I feel sad. I was always taught that any mitzva connected to a time was not an obligation for women. Likewise, I feel the same when I see women in kippahs. I see this as a distinctively masculine head covering. I have no idea why some women want to wear them when there are so many wonderful feminine head coverings available.

[ChavaK]

Handling the torah - if a woman is 'clean' I see no reason why she can't help in opening the Ark or dressing the scroll


Is it a commonly held belief amongst messianics that
a niddah should not touch the Torah, etc?

thanks,
c

[HadassahSukkot]

ants- you are called up to the Torah??? :confused: :eek:


I've been called to read the passage from my Tanakh, but not teach.

I've been called to carry the Torah scroll through the congregation, but not open it or read from it.

I'm curious- is it that normal nowadays in some Messianic congregations to have a Reformed Jewish/Evangelicalist approach to gender roles?

We're more along the lines of Conservative, and some of us leaning towards Orthodox actually....very few Reform ideas floating around in there... Reform only in that we have music and piano playing, and liturgical dance on Shabbat.


This may be due to my upbringing, but everytime I see a woman with a Tallit or tzitzis in general I feel sad. I was always taught that any mitzva connected to a time was not an obligation for women.

The rabbis determined that a woman isn't "obligated" but that if she is drawn to worship G-d more and take on these things, she is more than welcome to, and not to be hindered. It is said many of the matriarchs as well as pious women did these things.

Do I wear a tallit, no. I feel I should rather wear a shawl.. but on all four-cornered tunic shirts I have, I wear tzitziot in accordance with the command.



Likewise, I feel the same when I see women in kippahs. I see this as a distinctively masculine head covering. I have no idea why some women want to wear them when there are so many wonderful feminine head coverings available.

While I would agree with you, in some places it is not only dangerous but seen as subversive to wear the scarves like on ModestWorld and Tznius. :(
Where I am moving, it's "OK" In the country and "OK" at home or gardening, but otherwise, people think you Muslim or Turkish and as an outsider who won't blend into society within reason.

The women's kippot I have (Three) are very feminine and look like the hats from the 1940s/1950s, very pretty and not at all to be confused with what the men wear. (lace chapel style hat, beads and bows on a chenille one & a Buchari style-like the old pillbox hats)

I am at a loss on how to be modest and covered without getting attacked for being muslim or turkish where I am moving, without wearing a feminine style hat or ladies kippah.

For Shul I'm sure I can wear my scarves, but otherwise.. :sorry:



Is it a commonly held belief amongst messianics that
a niddah should not touch the Torah, etc?


I don't know about other congregations, since ours is pretty isolated- but this is the common consensus amongst us women, and I guess the guys are OK with it - - since we don't talk about those things in mixed company :blush:

[Sephania]

Is it a commonly held belief amongst messianics that
a niddah should not touch the Torah, etc?

thanks,
c
Sadly no, but it is with this one! :)

[Sephania]

Isn't this thread for men? LOL :)

I'm curious- is it that normal nowadays in some Messianic congregations to have a Reformed Jewish/Evangelicalist approach to gender roles?



Well if the men would just get a yaking we ladies wouldn't have to keep the thread up on top! ;)

Yes it is normal, but not to my liking, there are some very orthodox Messianic shuls but few and far between :(

[Tishri1]

I have a husband with a very Jewish sounding last name who agrees with the teaching of the Sabbath, and that Pagan Holidays are not right to celebrate and that the Torah is ours for today

but


He has no interest in becoming Jewish, and finds praying and singing in Hebrew boring and realizes that we are first saved then learn how to walk as we go..

problem

he wont go, he wont move.....at least not in any Jewish looking direction, not for himself, not when he doesnt see the need to take on a different culture to do Festivals and Shabbat...

so what do I do about it?

nothing


I do nothing on the outside, it's his life, his choice...oh I'm here, and will be here, should he want to invest in his wife and kids spiritually, we all are here waiting ....

but I wont take his place! oh I tried to but I was wrong...the goal is for him to be the head and by my taking the reins I was only wasting time, giving him a reason to stay in the background....nope he has a calling and by golly I will not stand in ABBA's way and take on the man's role.....but I do wish he would hurry up and get in the drivers seat:pray:

I go to Shul and to the Christian churchs too....I have my women's things and teach the kids informally about life and Torah, but I dont do anything that looks even the least bit "leading" or leaderish... He will have to do it or it wont get done.....

I know that there are some of you out there thinking, "just do this Tish, or that , or ....."Believe me I have and I was wrong, I was wasting Abba's time, time he needs to teach my DH how to lead.....Dont ask me how He's gonna do it, I dont know , but all I do know is I'm quietly praying and have been and will continue to and keep my mouth shut till Abba does the work in my DH

sooooon is all I can say soooooon ABBA sooooooon:pray:


I am one of those non controlling wives in case you want to know what one of those looks like......

and life is NOT good, but who said being non controlling was gonna make everything good? Who said everything has to be good all the time ....yes I want what is good and hopefully someday.....

meanwhile I wait...

[zhilan]

What should a man do as head of the household? What does this mean? What duties, etc?


P.S. Tishri, I always mean to tell you, the picture in your icon looks just like my cousin. =)

[Tishri1]

What should a man do as head of the household? What does this mean? What duties, etc?


P.S. Tishri, I always mean to tell you, the picture in your icon looks just like my cousin. =):clap:Cousin!!!!!!(((((Big Hugs)))))) maybe we are who knows, I like the thought of it though:hug:

[Henaynei]

Sadly no, but it is with this one! :) agreed... there is a small grass roots scattered community that knows that a niddah should refrain from touching the sacred or anyone who might handle the sacred - thus the women don't touch the sacred at all and don't touch any men but their husbands - because the timing of a woman's cycle should be a private thing between her, her husband and G-d - and this relelves the men of the congregaton from the burden of determining the status of a woman before allow her to touch him (i.e. in fellowshiop, etc) or that which is kosher in the shul service.... AND preserves these things for the men, thus supporting and nurishing the position and fellowship of the men in the community :)

[ChavaK]

Sadly no, but it is with this one! :)

Interesting....upon what is it based that a niddah
should not touch the Torah?

[Sephania]

It is not the custom of my synogogue but rather a personal reverence. Since being in the state of Niddah has references to death, and Torah is life, why mix the two?

[stone]

hmmm... head of the house...

My wife chooses everything that goes in the house. Everything from what goes on the floor to what goes on the wall, where and why. She's also chose the paint colors and what color went where. She chose the furniture and where it goes...

I pay the bills and such... by this i will make my declaration of leader of my household. :cool:

[Athaliamum]

It is not the custom of my synogogue but rather a personal reverence. Since being in the state of Niddah has references to death, and Torah is life, why mix the two?

Maybe we should start a seperate thread for this so it doesn't highjack this one.

I do not see Niddah as a reference to death, but the renewing of the body so that it can produce life.

[ChavaK]

It is not the custom of my synogogue but rather a personal reverence. Since being in the state of Niddah has references to death, and Torah is life, why mix the two?

So this is a personal belief, rather than scriptural
or messianic?

:wave:

[Sephania]

Now look, see what happened, the men didnt' step up ( except brave P_G ) to answer our questions so seeing so many women in here milling around do you think we could keep from talking to each other? Not! That would require one of these http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/th_whitecoats.gif (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/?action=view&current=whitecoats.gif)and a gag! :D



:) So then we chat ( on topic mind you as niddah, which is FAMILY purity) a bit while we are waiiting for the rest of the men to be brave and you come in here and get embarrased, then lure them all over to talk of beer drinking and sports and hunting and manly man things http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/th_iq.gif (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/?action=view&current=iq.gif).



It's like a Tim Taylor response to womens questions. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/th_yesyes.gif (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/?action=view&current=yesyes.gif)




So much for getting them off the http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/th_couchpotatoe.gif (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/crazy-silly/?action=view&current=couchpotatoe.gif) and getting them to talk to us.

:sigh: :swoon:




















:)

[HadassahSukkot]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/signs/focus.gif

And http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/signs/bounce53.gif

[MattyJames]

Greetings all,

I've been too slow of late to offer my opinion in the last few threads about headship and the role of women within both this Forum and the Messianic Community at large...so here I go.

To start off with, I haven't been around the forum for some time due to family stress and problems, further business projects, and a general sence of apathy toward the forum, to be honest. However, I still pop in time to time, as I wish not to lose touch with some of the great folks I've met here, and to whom I owe my gratitute.

To the subject at hand:

The issue is obviosly a complicated one, and from both my personal observences and from the general museings I've read over the last few days, there seems to be a divided reality and differences of opinion from both sides of the party.

On one side we have the men laying the problem at the feet of the women, stating such things like 'they won't let us be men'. And on the other hand we have the women laying the blame at the feet of the Man asking them to 'stand up and be men!!'. Interesting, I think.

Now for my opinion:

I've been bought up in a house where the father is the head, and the end of every disicion lays at his feet. And naturally the outcomes of that dicision are his to shoulder, whether good or bad. However, all dicisions have been talked over, discussed and even debated amoungst the household, with all sides voiceing their concerns.

Essentially the topic boils down to two issues, Accountability and Authority, albeit that lack thereof. If one refuses to be acountable, then the relevent authority is also annulled. Likewise, if one refuses to be athoritive, due to fear of accountability, then the stability of those under Authority (ie wives and childern) will suffer. To further this, if the Accountability and Authority is lacking, then it is only natural to find/ estabilish such from another source. Hence the shift of roles and a redefineing of 'headship'.

So the question remains: Is it wrong for a women to assume the role of Authority and therefore accountability if the Man will not fulfill that role. IMO: NO!

Lets look at Deborah. Why did the Lord chose a women to JUDGE Israel?? And again, in the Brit Hadasha, we have Philips four daughters as 'Prophetesses'. How can one Prophsey if they are not permited to speak within the Congretation? Or if they are not permited to hold positions of 'Authority'?

So what is my asessment of the situation?

To be frank, Men are not prepared to be Men. As I look out into both society and the Congregations of God, I see plenty of Domineering Fathers and Husbands, and I also see plenty of Pussy Cats whoes wives have them at their beck and call, but I find very few real MEN.

Men who are both as solid as a Rock, yet meek and teachable; who are both bold, yet also humble; who are strong, yet also soft. Men like Abraham, who was able to be both ravished in his wife Sarah, yet also respected by her when she called him 'Lord'; Like david, who, when sinned and fell, was able to be corrected and submit with a humble heart; yet both men were men of War, and they sat with kings. These are meek men, who did not blame anybody else for their incompetencies, but rather stood up to their failures and faults, shouldered them, and did their best to reconcile to both God and Man (albeit, their wives).

Furthermore, I find these two of particular interest because of their stated devotion to their wives, Abrahams favorite being Sarah, and Davids eventuall favorite being Bathshebah. I see a picture of tenderness and concern for their wives, and I am without doubt, that the support of the wives did at times 'lift their head', so as to speak.

I once heard a famouse TV evagelist who was talking about the relationshop between himself and his wife and he stated something to the effect of...

'Many a cold and bitter day, when all I feel like is the scum of the earth, this women has been the lifter of my head.'

Sometimes God seems afar off, and men need some where soft to rest their head. And I have also witnessed relationships where, due to the Man fobbing off responsibility, the woman becomes the Rock, and he loses that soft place to fall.

In conclusion: I believe that the Man is supposed to be the preist and head of his house, as it was from the begining. However, if God should not find a man to lead, then he will have to look to the ladies for help. And I think that he has done this very thing.

And we men can sit here and blame the women for being to 'feminist' orientated, but I'm sure that if we'd had more backbone and compassion and concern for the lady folk, we wouldn't have found ourselves in this situation. Lets try and teach our sons to be 'better men'.

Shabbas Shalom to all.:wave:

warm regards,

Matt James

BTW: For the records sake, I have been asked a number of times to be a mod on the forum. After the Icon change, such is not possible.

[MattyJames]

Antsy, this is for you.

Never stop questioning! Ever. I welcome your talents and opinion to any discussion. After all, you may be right and I may be wrong. :)

Must keep going.

Warm regards,

Matt James

[HadassahSukkot]

Matty, dear brother, thank you for your post. It was very enlightening :thumbsup:

[MattyJames]

Matty, dear brother, thank you for your post. It was very enlightening :thumbsup:

'Tis my pleasure.:)

Further thoughts:

If we as men, do not step up to the plate and lead, remembering that the accountability of our actions are upon us; Then we automatically shed any priviliges of Authority.

Furthermore, we need to gain a biblical sense of what a women is/ can be. I'm sure we'd all agree that Proverbs 31 is a pretty good discription of a 'Godly Woman', yet look at the ammount of time Solomon devotes to portraying her as a Business woman. She buys and sells land, she plants a vinyard (Cropping), she sells to the merchants, she buys her food from afar; These are all traits of A woman who is Self confident, extreemly capable, wise, prudent, hard working, deals/ negotiates with MEN, takes a large role in being the bread winner and so on:
The point of the matter is this:

We men, expect such an above woman to submit and be submissive to a man who shirks Accoutability and ultimatly responsibility.?? And this is the obsurdity of the issue. We men want women to be like proverbs 31, and yet on the other hand we approch them with a sort of 'you are to be seen and not heard' sort of attitude.

Let us be reasonable. If a women, a virtuous women, can buy and sell land, handle big business, and ultimatly carry positions of finacial power; all within the blessing and guidance of the Lord: then why couldn't she run a chat forum? Or why must she be unable to read the Torah in public? Or why wouldn't/ shouldn't/ couldn't the Lord use her to deliver a message to the Congregation?

Let me also point out another example:

Anna, the prophetess, recognised the Lord while he was yet baby. There were no miracles, signs or words spoken, yet the Lords spirit revealed such unto her. In contrast, look at the religous leaders of the day; Gamaleil, Annas, Caiaphas and many other MEN in positions of Authority, although they had the Word walking amoungst them, they could not see the reality of the I AM. So who then should God speak through/ to? The Men, or Anna the Prophetess, a women? The answer is obvious. Therefore, if God spoke through/ To Anna, should she be forbidden to carry a position of Authority within the Body of Messiah? And should she not also be accounted for as a Judge of the people?
So much for the stay at home, at the kitchen sink woman.

Just some thoughts of mine.

Once again, Shabbas Shalom to all.:wave:

Warm regards,

Matt James

[MattyJames]

Bump.

Thought this might still be of interest.

MJ

[plum]

well gosh matty, you basically said it all better than i could. ;)

good bump. i hope we can discuss this with thoughtful maturity