Unless you become like a little...savage...?

[Dust and Ashes]

On the way home from prayer service last night, I was listening to the local Christian station (which happens to be the very place that lets us use their conference room to pray Small Compline). Adrian Rogers was on and I found his sermon pretty disturbing.

He was very adamantly proclaiming that "we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners." Then he pointed out, with Scripture reference, that all are "children of wrath" and that children are little savages. He said that an infant wants what they want, when they want it and if they don't get it, they become enraged and that their rage would be murderous if they weren't so helpless.

I sat there thinking, "And Jesus said we must become like they are..."

Any thoughts?

[Dust and Ashes]

Though he didn't state it clearly, I got the distinct impression that he was claiming belief in total depravity.

[Orthocat]

Though he didn't state it clearly, I got the distinct impression that he was claiming belief in total depravity.



Out of a depraved mind come depraved thoughts....


One thing I love about being EO is the view of original sin and infants...

[Matrona]

He was very adamantly proclaiming that "we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners." Then he pointed out, with Scripture reference, that all are "children of wrath" and that children are little savages. He said that an infant wants what they want, when they want it and if they don't get it, they become enraged and that their rage would be murderous if they weren't so helpless.

I sat there thinking, "And Jesus said we must become like they are..."

Any thoughts?

He's cribbing. I remember reading something to this effect in one of the sociology/criminal profiling books I used to read.

[Oblio]

Good ol' Adrian. Fun to listen to, but quite unorthodox in many respects. May God remember him.

[Dust and Ashes]

He's cribbing. I remember reading something to this effect in one of the sociology/criminal profiling books I used to read.

Yes, he said that got the information from a study conducted by some group looking at the causes of criminal behavior

[lsg03]

On the way home from prayer service last night, I was listening to the local Christian station (which happens to be the very place that lets us use their conference room to pray Small Compline). Adrian Rogers was on and I found his sermon pretty disturbing.

He was very adamantly proclaiming that "we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners." Then he pointed out, with Scripture reference, that all are "children of wrath" and that children are little savages. He said that an infant wants what they want, when they want it and if they don't get it, they become enraged and that their rage would be murderous if they weren't so helpless.

I sat there thinking, "And Jesus said we must become like they are..."

Any thoughts?
Yet another reason why I'm becoming Orthodox.
Not to judge Adrian Rogers, great guy, but all the contradictions in Protestant teaching and man's own individual interpretation are the two main reasons my husband and I both left Protestantism. Also agree with Orthocat on the EO view of infants and original sin.

[Jacob4707]

On the way home from prayer service last night, I was listening to the local Christian station (which happens to be the very place that lets us use their conference room to pray Small Compline). Adrian Rogers was on and I found his sermon pretty disturbing.

He was very adamantly proclaiming that "we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners." Then he pointed out, with Scripture reference, that all are "children of wrath" and that children are little savages. He said that an infant wants what they want, when they want it and if they don't get it, they become enraged and that their rage would be murderous if they weren't so helpless.

I sat there thinking, "And Jesus said we must become like they are..."

Any thoughts?

I think Adrian Rogers was describing Baptists. :P

[Jacob4707]

On the way home from prayer service last night, I was listening to the local Christian station (which happens to be the very place that lets us use their conference room to pray Small Compline). Adrian Rogers was on and I found his sermon pretty disturbing.

He was very adamantly proclaiming that "we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners." Then he pointed out, with Scripture reference, that all are "children of wrath" and that children are little savages. He said that an infant wants what they want, when they want it and if they don't get it, they become enraged and that their rage would be murderous if they weren't so helpless.

I sat there thinking, "And Jesus said we must become like they are..."

Any thoughts?

I think Adrian Rogers was describing Texas Baptists. :P

(FYI - Rogers died a year ago)

[Mary of Bethany]

I remember hearing that phrase often, as a Baptist - "we aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners". I remember feeling that my soul was hopelessly "black", and though we shouldn't give in to sins, it never seemed even the remotest possibility that my soul would change. Jesus "covered" my sins, but I could/would never really change.

I quit listening to Mr. Rogers quite a few years ago, because I found his sermons to be rather harsh - a bit lacking in love or something. That's not a judgment on Mr. Rogers' faith - just on his sort of sermon.

Mary

[Oblio]

I concur with Steve & Bill from OLiC who contend that one of the most misquoted (and misunderstood) NT verses is:

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(1Co 15:56 KJVA)

[lsg03]

I remember hearing that phrase often, as a Baptist - "we aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners". I remember feeling that my soul was hopelessly "black", and though we shouldn't give in to sins, it never seemed even the remotest possibility that my soul would change. Jesus "covered" my sins, but I could/would never really change.

I quit listening to Mr. Rogers quite a few years ago, because I found his sermons to be rather harsh - a bit lacking in love or something. That's not a judgment on Mr. Rogers' faith - just on his sort of sermon.

Mary
I agree with Mary

[irishseventysix]

I think that what's truly criminal is that he assumes that infants are being horrendously sinful because they have actual needs they are unable satisfy themselves. So they do the one thing they are able to, which is to cry and yell so that they can get the attention of their parents to supply their needs.

I am so sick of hearing that because babies need things constant, involved care an attention from their parents and place a burden of responsibility on them in a way that tends to grate on the parents (crying, screaming, spitting up, resisting sleep, wanting to be held and have attention) they're being sinful.

That's ludicrous and dangerous.

[Orthocat]

What I find interesting is that some protestants will have this view and debate over whether abortion is okay or not. I wonder if anyone has ever used this type of logic as justification.

weird....

[The Virginian]

I agree with Mary


Add my ditto, to this!!!

Speaking of style of sermon, I know of a promeinent Orthodox speaker whose style is often harsh.

[Jacob4707]

What I find interesting is that some protestants will have this view and debate over whether abortion is okay or not. I wonder if anyone has ever used this type of logic as justification.

weird....

Yes, if infants are children of wrath, savages, totally depraved sinners, then their death by abortion is not the taking of innocent lives.

[Xpycoctomos]

He's cribbing. I remember reading something to this effect in one of the sociology/criminal profiling books I used to read.
what's cribbing?

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Yet another reason why I'm becoming Orthodox.
Not to judge Adrian Rogers, great guy, but all the contradictions in Protestant teaching and man's own individual interpretation are the two main reasons my husband and I both left Protestantism. Also agree with Orthocat on the EO view of infants and original sin.

These are also big reasons why I'm seriously considering Orthodoxy.

I think that what's truly criminal is that he assumes that infants are being horrendously sinful because they have actual needs they are unable satisfy themselves. So they do the one thing they are able to, which is to cry and yell so that they can get the attention of their parents to supply their needs.

I am so sick of hearing that because babies need things constant, involved care an attention from their parents and place a burden of responsibility on them in a way that tends to grate on the parents (crying, screaming, spitting up, resisting sleep, wanting to be held and have attention) they're being sinful.

That's ludicrous and dangerous.

That reminds me of a clip from one of the Tenchi series (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=919). I believe it was Washu telling Tenchi how babies cry whenever they need something. Tenchi said to a baby he was holding, "You're pretty selfish, then, aren't you?" Washu said, "He's not selfish. He has to be that way."

[OnTheWay]

Anyone ever read "Sinners in the Hands of an Angery God?" Nothing makes an impression on you like going to a high school full of people that think that sermon was the greatest every composed by man.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Yep, I've read it. :P The strange thing is, I remember liking it the first time I read it back in high school. Now, it horrifies me.

[choirfiend]

I thnk you're supposed to be horrified of the things you liked in high school. My goodness, the fashion choices!!!

[Matrona]

Yep, I've read it. :P The strange thing is, I remember liking it the first time I read it back in high school. Now, it horrifies me.

I read it first when I was in high school for a literature class, long before becoming a believer. The theology wasn't to my taste, but I respected (and still do to some degree) Edwards because he was "hardcore", in my estimation. :D

[irishseventysix]

Yeah, my Dad was totally into that sermon. He had me read it when I was about 13. For the time, I was on-board, with reservations.

Now I look at it and I think it's pretty sick and sad.

[Xpycoctomos]

what's cribbing?

[Orthosdoxa]

isn't it stealing?

LK

[OnTheWay]

The only use of the term cribbing I know of is when you have people that can write extremely small well. It's often used to write answers to multiple choice tests on something for use in cheating.

[Xpycoctomos]

Ah.. like crib notes.... gothca... now I get it! I had never heard the term "to crib" in my entire life.

[irishseventysix]

I've always thought it was synonymous with "riff", "nick", and "filch" and "pilfer"...meaning "to steal".

[Matrona]

I've always thought it was synonymous with "riff", "nick", and "filch" and "pilfer"...meaning "to steal".
That's right... cribbing is stealing or plagiarizing. It's also used for when one uses crib sheets (little slips of paper with the answers on them). I was using it somewhat cheekily. :D