Catholic Marian Apparitions

[MichaelArchangelos]

I was discussing this with my priest earlier, and he said that he didn't attack other people's devotions. However, either the Marian apparitions are from God, or they are from the Devil. What does everyone think about the following listing of Marian Apparitions?

From God
Our Lady of Guadalupe
Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal
Our Lady of Light, Zeitoun
Fatima Miracle of the Sun
Miraculous Spring at Lourdes

Suspect
Fatima revelations (She spoke about Purgatory and devotion to the Immaculate Heart, both of which are not in Orthodoxy)
Our Lady of Lourdes ("I am the Immaculate Conception")
Our Lady of La Salette (Prophecies about "Rome" losing the faith - that happened in 1054)

Demonic
Our Lady of Peace, Medjugorje
Our Lady of Garabandal
Our Lady of Necedah
Our Lady of Bayside


Fr. Ilyan spoke about the Virgin Mary tonight at Bible Study, and he said that no-one would be kicked out of the Orthodox Church for believing in the Immaculate Conception. However it is not part of Orthodox theology.
I also do not think that God would let the Devil work a miracle like the Fatima Miracle of the Sun.
What do you all think about these apparitions? Do you think that the list I made is accurate?

[Xpycoctomos]

Why do we have to categorize them? Why can't we just leave them alone since they have nothing to do with our spiritual tradition? I don't mean to come across as combative. I realize the full intention of your post what out of complete respect. But these threads tend to turn into a Catholic-bashing fest (which I know is NOT your intention) at worst and best an unintentional slap in the face of some OBOB friends who hold some of these apparitions dear to their heart and are very centered on God in spite of or BECAUSE OF the apparaition.

Anyhow, please don't take this as a personal reprimand at all. It's only a warning from having experiences about 5 too many of these threads in TAW and none turning out (IMO) productive. Also, it's Advent and we tend to get a bit more feisty during these days :)

In Christ,

John

[Ioan cel Nou]

Zeitoun isn't Roman Catholic, it's a Coptic apparition. Personally, I have far less of a problem with that than with most of the others, but generally I think that if it's outside the Church we should practice discernment and not touch it. That doesn't mean, though, that we should bash those who do believe in them, no matter how much we might disagree (as an Orthodox Christian would be hard put not to do with some of them, such as Fatima).

James

[kamikat]

Here is an interesting article. Not everyone agrees with everything in the article, but it certainly gave me food for thought when I was thinking about leaving the Catholic Church.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

[Michael the Iconographer]

How can Fatima be of God when at Fatima Mary asked for the consecration of Russia to her Blessed Heart? The Theotokos is not about herself, she is all about her son. She never asks for anything for herself, she asks for everything for her son. And was not Russia consecrated to the Theotokos in the mid 10th Century when it was Chrismated? This very fact shows that Fatima can not be of God because she was asking for at Fatima in contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church.

[Xpycoctomos]

How can Fatima be of God when at Fatima Mary asked for the consecration of Russia to her Blessed Heart? The Theotokos is not about herself, she is all about her son. She never asks for anything for herself, she asks for everything for her son. And was not Russia consecrated to the Theotokos in the mid 10th Century when it was Chrismated? This very fact shows that Fatima can not be of God because she was asking for at Fatima in contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church.
I don't know... good thing we don't have to worry about that since we're Orthodox :)

[Michael the Iconographer]

I don't know... good thing we don't have to worry about that since we're Orthodox :)
Exactly. It just bothers me that some Orthodox think Fatima was ok. I guess they never really studied the things Mary supposedly said there.

[Emmanuel-A]

Exactly. It just bothers me that some Orthodox think Fatima was ok. I guess they never really studied the things Mary supposedly said there.

That's my point of view.

"Messages" like those of La Salette and Fatima are completely unorthodox.

[Michael the Iconographer]

That's my point of view.

"Messages" like those of La Salette and Fatima are completely unorthodox.
Are Germans and French allowed to agree on anything? :D

[MichaelArchangelos]

I agree that the Fatima messages were not from God (they were probably from the Devil), because she spoke about one of the children's friends who was in purgatory, and the Consecration of Russia issue. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is absent in Orthodox spirituality, but I don't think it is contrary to any Orthodox teaching. But the Consecration of Russia was to stop Russia spreading her errors (communism) throughout the world. But why didn't she appear to Russian Orthodox children if she wanted Russia consecrated?

However, I don't agree that the Fatima miracle was demonic. God allows the Devil to work signs to lead people astray as a test of their faith. But God would never allow Satan to work a sign like Fatima. The Miracle of the Sun (where the sun started to spin like a pinwheel, and then rushed towards earth; afterwards the people's muddy clothing was spotless) is something only God could do. While I admit the messages weren't from God, only God could have done such a miracle.

And Zeitoun has been approved by the Orthodox Church.

[Knowledge3]

If the apparition is seen by more than 5-6 witnesses each giving an accurate description, then it is plausible.

[OnTheWay]

I really don't think labeling something that the Catholics hold sacred as "demonic" is going to do anything to help bring unity to the faith. Being as I've never seen anyone at OBOB label an Orthodox belief demonic I think we ought to have enough common courtesy to extend to them the same.

[Matrona]

I agree that the Fatima messages were not from God (they were probably from the Devil), because she spoke about one of the children's friends who was in purgatory, and the Consecration of Russia issue. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is absent in Orthodox spirituality, but I don't think it is contrary to any Orthodox teaching. But the Consecration of Russia was to stop Russia spreading her errors (communism) throughout the world. But why didn't she appear to Russian Orthodox children if she wanted Russia consecrated?

Exactly. There's also the fact that no one can seem to keep it straight how exactly Russia was supposed to be consecrated, or indeed whether it actually was consecrated at all.

Although we do refer to Mary as "Immaculate" or "All-Pure", our beliefs on original sin are different and we would never ever call her the "immaculate conception". Save for the angel's foretelling of Anna's pregnancy, Mary's conception was no different from anyone else's. She had the same fragile human nature as all of us, so that Christ could assume it from His mother and heal it. As for praying to her heart, it's been my experience that Orthodox generally address the whole persons of the people in heaven rather than appealing to the heart directly.

However, I don't agree that the Fatima miracle was demonic. God allows the Devil to work signs to lead people astray as a test of their faith. But God would never allow Satan to work a sign like Fatima. The Miracle of the Sun (where the sun started to spin like a pinwheel, and then rushed towards earth; afterwards the people's muddy clothing was spotless) is something only God could do. While I admit the messages weren't from God, only God could have done such a miracle.

I would be interested to hear more of your perspective on this. The devil can do many things, including masquerade as an angel of light. While God's own ways are inscrutable, I can't imagine why He would work a miracle at that particular place and time so that it would lend credence to the false apparitions.

And Zeitoun has been approved by the Orthodox Church.

Zeitoun was approved by the Coptic Orthodox Church, not the Orthodox Church. While it has a similar name to the Orthodox Church (aka "Eastern Orthodox") and the Coptic church's name makes it sound like one of our autocephalous jurisdictions, they (and all other non-Chalcedonians, such as Ethiopian Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, etc.) are a different confession from us. With the similar names, it's easy to get them confused with us, but they have doctrines that differentiate them from Orthodox and they are not part of the Church.

[Matrona]

I really don't think labeling something that the Catholics hold sacred as "demonic" is going to do anything to help bring unity to the faith. Being as I've never seen anyone at OBOB label an Orthodox belief demonic I think we ought to have enough common courtesy to extend to them the same.
The Church is not here to make friends. She is here to save souls. When we encounter the potentially or manifestly demonic, it's our job to tell it like it is.

[seashale76]

Here is an interesting article. Not everyone agrees with everything in the article, but it certainly gave me food for thought when I was thinking about leaving the Catholic Church.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

Kamikat,

Thank you for posting the article. It was certainly an interesting read. Myself, I go with the prelest option. This stuff gives me the heebi-jeebies.

[OnTheWay]

The Church is not here to make friends. She is here to save souls. When we encounter the potentially or manifestly demonic, it's our job to tell it like it is.

Let's think about this for a moment. St. Paul is standing in the middle of pagan worship, does he start condemning them and telling them they're worshipping demons? Wait a second, he didn't do that. Instead he meet them on their terms and proclaimed the unknown God. Using the Church as an excuse to act like rude children is pretty pathetic.