Old Catholics & Trent

[Iosias]

Do Old Catholics accept the Council of Trent?

[gtsecc]

I would think they must since they split at Vatican 1.

[No Swansong]

Fr. Rick Paging Fr. Rick!!!!

Wigglesworth Paging Mr. Wigglesworth!!!

Did I miss anyone?

[Iosias]

I would think they must since they split at Vatican 1.

That was my conclusion but I just wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak.

[kiwimac]

This is from the Declaration of Utrecht, 1889.

5.We refuse to accept the decrees of the Council of Trent in matters of discipline, and as for the dogmatic decisions of that Council we accept them only so far as they are in harmony with the teaching of the primitive Church.

So the answer is "yes, but..."

Rev. Ray McIntyre,
Priest
Anglican Church International

[No Swansong]

Fr. Rick Paging Fr. Rick!!!!

Wigglesworth Paging Mr. Wigglesworth!!!

Did I miss anyone?
Oops missed Kiwi.

[Wigglesworth]

The Polish National Catholic Church does not recognize the Council of Trent as binding, and adopts the phrase posted above from the Declaration of Utrecht on the issue.

The true ecumenical councils were the first seven (or four, depending on whose counting) that were held before the schism between the East and the West. So, the PNCC upholds only the ones to which everyone was invited and welcome to participate.

:crossrc:

[Iosias]

The true ecumenical councils were the first seven (or four, depending on whose counting) that were held before the schism between the East and the West.

Which are they? What authority then does the 529 Council of Orange and the Council of Carthage possess?

[Wigglesworth]

Here's a list with pictures and everything:

http://www.heartlandoldcatholic.org/councils.htm

I know nothing about the church that hosts this website and make no claim as to their infallibility. It's just a site I found in a search.

:crossrc:

[Wigglesworth]

It seems to me that regional councils make pronouncements on behalf of the bishops present. So, if your bishop, or someone under whose authority you submit, was not represented in the council, it holds no authority over you.

An ecumenical council was open to the entire church, and holds authority in the entire church. A regional council may be persuasive, but is not necessarily authoritative.

:crossrc:

[kiwimac]

I would agree with Wigglesworth here.

The first four (and possibly the first seven) councils are authoritative for the whole church as they were Ecumenical councils. As both the councils of Orange and Carthage were regional councils they would not be considered binding on the whole church.

Rev. Ray McIntyre,
Priest
Anglican Church International

[Iosias]

What about the Council of Ephesus and the Mother of God decision?

[kiwimac]

From the following site (http://www.heartlandoldcatholic.org/councils.htm)

Third Ecumenical Council

Council of Ephesus, A.D. 431
This council was called by Byzantine Emperor (Eastern Empire) Theodosius II, grandson of Theodosius I. It was in response to the heresy of Nestorianism, which said Jesus was merely a man in whom the Word of God dwelled (as in a temple). Nestorianism also taught that Mary, Jesus' mother, was merely the mother of Christ, not Mother of God.

The Council declared that Jesus Christ is completely God and completely man (although without sin) and that Mary is rightly called the Mother of God. Furthermore, the Council declared that the Nicene Creed, defined during the first two Councils, was complete and never to be changed. 200 bishops attended

This is one of the Ecumenical Councils of the church. Some Old Catholics would accept Mary as the Theotokos others would not.

Rev. Ray McIntyre,
Priest
Anglican Church International

[kiwimac]

If it is of interest to anyone, the Old Catholic Church(es) generally do NOT say the filioque clause of the Nicene Creed.

[No Swansong]

If it is ok interest to anyone, the Old Catholic Church(es) generally do NOT say the filioque clause of the Nicene Creed.
I do find that somewhat interesting Kiwi. Considering the timing of the split I would have assumed that generally they would have continued the practice. Interesting.