Headcovering for women - all opinions welcome [open]

[psalms66]

as long as you use SCripture to back it up. :blush:

My husband left our 4 children and I about 2 weeks ago and prior to that I had been praying about/studying the custom of headcovering for women. He would not take a position on it and left it to me. I discerned that he did not like the idea and so I did not cover. Now though (and this is why I mentioned that he is divorcing me) I feel I have the freedom/obligation to make this decision for myself.

And so.... lacking adequate fellowship on this subject in real-life, please offer your observations. As a Fundamentalist I think the SCripture is really really clear. But then there is that one where it says the the hair is given to a woman for her covering. If that is the covering though, then it stands to reason that men should shave their heads bald since, if hair is a covering, it is shameful for them to pray/prophesy COVERED.

Let's TALK about this shall we? I really really am seeking the Lord but I want to be sure because I feel it is a life-long decision I am considering.

[TwinCrier]

I have in the past year felt convicted to study this issue and feel that head covering is not necessary for either salvation or obedience. If someone feels convicted to do so I think it's wonderful, as when I see women in public with a head covering I imediately make the judgement that they have strong convictions of their faith.
There are lots of beautiful inexpensive head-coverings for sale on the internet, so much so that just looking at them makes me want to just wear them anyways. :D

[soblessed53]

What does Paul say about it?

1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
1Cor 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Cor 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Cor 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Cor 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Cor 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.
1Cor 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Cor 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1Cor 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
1Cor 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Cor 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.
1Cor 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

[zhilan]

I think it can be quite pious, but it can also easily become a source of pride that can be distructive. For example, sometimes I go to a Coptic church and there it is expected that the women cover so I do and I think this is nice and it doesn't really lead to pride because it's what everyone does. But at my other church no one covers. I think doing it there it would be easy to start feeling like "oh i'm more holy becuase I do this" so I don't.

[kenneth558]

You are asking a wonderful question, psalms66!

Here are a couple of commonly overlooked points regarding the head coverings teaching in 1 Corinthians 11:
The context of this teaching is in addressing our conduct outside, not inside, the worship service. In fact, this is the final teaching in the section of the epistle dealing with conduct outside the worship service. The verse immediately following the head covering teaching introduces the epistle's section of conduct inside the service with these words: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it." Note also that the word "now" is commonly used by Paul to introduce a new context. This is a very important point because if we don't see it, we could easily think, contrary to chapter 14 verse 35, that women are allowed to pray and prophesy (chapter 11 verse 5) during the service.

Paul uses the example from nature of men's and women's hair lengths as God's pattern and precedent in creation. Jesus and Paul commonly used examples from nature to support the teaching they were delivering, and this is another such example. Hair is not the covering for prayer and prophesying that Paul (actually God) is saying we are to observe. In fact, God simply wants a woman to be consistent in prayer/prophesying - if she wants long hair in the rest of her life, cover up additionally when before God, too. If she doesn't cover up, cut her hair off, too. The covering is glory to the female - hair in the natural before other people, a veil additionally when before God.

It makes no sense whatsoever that God and Paul would waste inspired scripture by allowing some contentious, ungodly person to nullify the teaching. What God has to be saying here is that while someone might be contentious about obeying this, there is no such contention or debate happening amongst the apostles nor in churches.


Regrettably, I don't attend churches that understand the women's side of this teaching, but I had one pastor pull my construction helmet off my head before he would proceed with with a men's group prayer with me. That he acknowledged the validity of the men's side of this teaching is a witness against him that he should also recognize the women's aspect of it.

[psalms66]

Kenneth, excellently put. In some translations, that last verse says, "We have no other custom." rather than "we have no such custom". BIG change in meaning. Also, I have heard the argument that the hair is the covering. If this is so, then every man should be shaved since it is a shame for a man to be "covered" while praying/prophesying.

I can't really get away from this teaching and have begun wearing a covering. They are small, since there is no direct instructions on what it should look like, how big, how much coverage, etc. (think of the instructions of the Priests robes in the construction of the temple. If this was important God would have put it in there!). The children's favorite is the one they picked out. It is desert camo! ;) Can you tell I have 3 boys?

[ttreg]

Wow!!! I was doing my quite (SP?) time and read 1 Cor 11 and its somehting that I have been thinking about. So is it the hair thats the covering or a hat thingy?

[kenneth558]

Wow!!! I was doing my quite (SP?) time and read 1 Cor 11 and its somehting that I have been thinking about. So is it the hair thats the covering or a hat thingy?I trust you are having quite a quiet time.:P

Hair is the head covering in Creation that shows observant people that God cares about head coverings, and they mean something to Him. What they mean to Him is made a little more clear to us as we come to understand that God wants us to pay particular attention to it (by adding more for women, less for men) when in certain contexts that more closely approximate that in which the angels live. In other words, Paul says to observe head coverings "because of the angels" in recognition of the fact that we come into the presence of God cognizant of orderly authority we are under by His decree.

You can be sure the American mentality has long been at enmity with this God-ordained authority structure, and you will not be able to embrace both it and the American way at the same time. The Bible is counter-cultural and always has been. That is yet another reason I ardently disagree with the statement I heard from a radio preacher the other day that "the Bible must be culturally understood and interpreted".

psalms66, once you understand this teaching, it is a beautiful thing. The intent of the head covering seems to be to make the woman more beautiful (glorious) to God when coming into His presence. God tells women not to adorn themselves with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, costly array, plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel. But when it comes to head coverings, knock yourself out with something beautiful for Him! Like TwinCrier talks about above.

And have you learned to "covet to prophesy" yet?

[No Swansong]

I truly appreciate they tone and manner of this discussion. Thanks for making my job so very easy on Fundamentalist Churches forum.

[marke]

as long as you use SCripture to back it up. :blush:

My husband left our 4 children and I about 2 weeks ago and prior to that I had been praying about/studying the custom of headcovering for women. He would not take a position on it and left it to me. I discerned that he did not like the idea and so I did not cover. Now though (and this is why I mentioned that he is divorcing me) I feel I have the freedom/obligation to make this decision for myself.

And so.... lacking adequate fellowship on this subject in real-life, please offer your observations. As a Fundamentalist I think the SCripture is really really clear. But then there is that one where it says the the hair is given to a woman for her covering. If that is the covering though, then it stands to reason that men should shave their heads bald since, if hair is a covering, it is shameful for them to pray/prophesy COVERED.

Let's TALK about this shall we? I really really am seeking the Lord but I want to be sure because I feel it is a life-long decision I am considering.
You've read the scripture. It's as plain as day. Obey or not.

In respect to "then it stands to reason that men should shave their heads bald since".

Reason or opinion doesn't matter. What does the scripture say? It doesn't. So let it go. You, as a woman were the one spoken to.

My wife, for example doesn't cover. A friend does. What's right for you is right for you. We all sin in some manner or another. Make a choice and ask for forgiveness if you need to, but there is no question according to scripture.

God Bless.

[oliveplants]

Sounds like you guys have it "covered" already, but just to comment on the hair/material aspect...

1Cor 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

I cannot think of a way to read this verse where it makes sense for the hair to be the covering discussed in the passage. "If she has no hair, let her shave her hair" :confused:

I respect anyone who looks at the issue Biblically and decides for OR against the issue. (So nothing against those who've posted so far, okay?) What bugs me is when people use something other than the BIble to decide what to do about what the Bible says. If that makes sense...

I can also see places where it would be pride/false humility to wear a covering, or when a husband is against it, and in those cases it would do no good.

For myself, it felt SO WEIRD at first, and I know I stuck out like a sore thumb, but now it feel like part of my head; no way I'm leaving the house without a covering of some sort.

I have a few websites on my other computer if you are interested. Bandanas from the general store are cheapest, though.

[cubanito]

What bothers me is that a near-universal custom, based on a near-universal plain interpretation of Scripture, was dropped so suddenly and without much discussion by protestants and RC as a DIRECT RESULT of the women's movement.

Whatever your position about the matter is, it is undeniable that the loss of this practice was caused by the world's pressures, and not by some deep rethinking.

It is interesting to me that in the OT, it was the man who had to cover his head to pray, which the Jews maintain a practice of today. For woment there was no law. Like many things, the NT turned it to the opposite.

I will not go to Church with my wife or daughters unless they put something on their head, and know why it is there: as a sign of submission to male authority. The Church I go to has no such observance.

JR

[kenneth558]

What bothers me is that a near-universal custom, based on a near-universal plain interpretation of Scripture, was dropped so suddenly and without much discussion by protestants and RC as a DIRECT RESULT of the women's movement.

Whatever your position about the matter is, it is undeniable that the loss of this practice was caused by the world's pressures, and not by some deep rethinking.

It is interesting to me that in the OT, it was the man who had to cover his head to pray, which the Jews maintain a practice of today. For woment there was no law. Like many things, the NT turned it to the opposite.

I will not go to Church with my wife or daughters unless they put something on their head, and know why it is there: as a sign of submission to male authority. The Church I go to has no such observance.

JRJR, I am interested to know if you see the observance of head coverings as to be done just for attending church or for anytime when praying and prophesying?

[cubanito]

Good question, never thought about it.

later...

JR

[cubanito]

JR, I am interested to know if you see the observance of head coverings as to be done just for attending church or for anytime when praying and prophesying?

Never before realized it, but taking my own viewpoint it seems clear that a woman ought to cover her head when praying, in or out of assembly.

I've got to rethink my position.

Thank you for asking!!:)

JR

[psalms66]

JR,See that's what I got too - since we are also commanded to "pray without ceasing" then when is it ok to not cover? And even if you take this VERY literally then it would be waaaay to inconvenient to put it on, take it off everytime I pray. So I wear it pretty much all the time. SO my next question becomes, what to wear?U have amde a couple of really pretty ones and they seem to make quite a splash. Some think since they draw attention they are "immodest" (I have lace trim on one that makes it very feminine, etc. and one with trim on black chiffon). I don't see that it matters what I cover with.ON a side note, and probably more important that the other things I've brought up so far, it has been AMAZING the difference I notice in myself since beginning to cover. I am more at peace, more patient, in all I feel it is easier for me to be the woman God ordained me to be. I hope that makes sense. It might not if one hasn't personally experienced it. It's sortof like that feminist spirit that came over me after wearing pants for a day or so. That's why Iwear skirts ot dresses.

[cubanito]

Though I need to re-examine my position, I do think your attitude praiseworthy. In fact everybody who's posted here.

JR

[twistedsketch]

I believe the covering referred to the natural covering of long hair. Of course, shaving the head and all of that also had specific cultural meanings and if the women in Paul's day didn't obey this, it would pretty much be the equivalent of wearing fishnet to church today.

[oliveplants]

JR,See that's what I got too - since we are also commanded to "pray without ceasing" then when is it ok to not cover? And even if you take this VERY literally then it would be waaaay to inconvenient to put it on, take it off everytime I pray. So I wear it pretty much all the time. SO my next question becomes, what to wear?U have amde a couple of really pretty ones and they seem to make quite a splash. Some think since they draw attention they are "immodest" (I have lace trim on one that makes it very feminine, etc. and one with trim on black chiffon). I don't see that it matters what I cover with.ON a side note, and probably more important that the other things I've brought up so far, it has been AMAZING the difference I notice in myself since beginning to cover. I am more at peace, more patient, in all I feel it is easier for me to be the woman God ordained me to be. I hope that makes sense. It might not if one hasn't personally experienced it. It's sortof like that feminist spirit that came over me after wearing pants for a day or so. That's why Iwear skirts ot dresses.
This is my position also.

There are times I get upset with DH and want to rip it off my head, but there it is, reminding me that I'm supposed to do the right thing. grr ;)

I wear bandanas for everyday, and have a snood and a lacy white covering that I use on more special occasions.

[HadassahSukkot]

Hola Cubanito!

There is scripture in the Tanakh (OT) that speaks to women covering their hair (veiling/unveiling)...

One of the passages has to do with a woman suspected by her husband of committing adultery. She is to be taken to the altar at the tabernacle (or Temple) and the High preist is to uncover and unbraid her hair - which is a disgrace.

A woman never left her home without being modestly covered, and much discussion of this is in the Talmud, dating several discussions to temple period #1 and temple period #2 before being discussed after the temple period.

Much discussion is also in the ECF (Early Church Fathers) and their understanding of the straightforward Hebrew and Greek about headcovering.

I have a lot of links with much scriptural support I would like to post on here when I get a better chance.

I also agree that this is something that was cast off in light of the women's movements, and we have lost a lot because of it.

I have been covering since about 2001, pretty much full time. I almost lost one job because of it.

Where I work now, I have the freedom to exercise my faith without persecution for my beliefs, including covering my hair with a scarf, snood, hat or ladies' kippah.

Sure, some people stare or don't understand, but if they ask, I have a ready answer.

Paul was solidifying what was already understood in the Tanakh (OT) and already in practice within the synagogue culture - explaining it to the Corinthians which had a very strange pagan reverse-order custom of women praying/prophesying to the gods uncovered, and male prostitutes who dressed as women and veiled to pray and prophesy.

Other issues are also discussed in the letter to the Corinthians that are already present in the OT... and Paul is drawing them out and solidifying the reasons these things are to be observed.

More to come ..

[No Swansong]

Hola Cubanito!

There is scripture in the Tanakh (OT) that speaks to women covering their hair (veiling/unveiling)...

One of the passages has to do with a woman suspected by her husband of committing adultery. She is to be taken to the altar at the tabernacle (or Temple) and the High preist is to uncover and unbraid her hair - which is a disgrace.

A woman never left her home without being modestly covered, and much discussion of this is in the Talmud, dating several discussions to temple period #1 and temple period #2 before being discussed after the temple period.

Much discussion is also in the ECF (Early Church Fathers) and their understanding of the straightforward Hebrew and Greek about headcovering.

I have a lot of links with much scriptural support I would like to post on here when I get a better chance.

I also agree that this is something that was cast off in light of the women's movements, and we have lost a lot because of it.

I have been covering since about 2001, pretty much full time. I almost lost one job because of it.

Where I work now, I have the freedom to exercise my faith without persecution for my beliefs, including covering my hair with a scarf, snood, hat or ladies' kippah.

Sure, some people stare or don't understand, but if they ask, I have a ready answer.

Paul was solidifying what was already understood in the Tanakh (OT) and already in practice within the synagogue culture - explaining it to the Corinthians which had a very strange pagan reverse-order custom of women praying/prophesying to the gods uncovered, and male prostitutes who dressed as women and veiled to pray and prophesy.

Other issues are also discussed in the letter to the Corinthians that are already present in the OT... and Paul is drawing them out and solidifying the reasons these things are to be observed.

More to come ..
Hi Antsinmypants thanks for the added info.

[HadassahSukkot]

Here's the passage of the suspect-wife.

Numbers 5

11 And the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Give the following instructions to the people of Israel.

“Suppose a man’s wife goes astray, and she is unfaithful to her husband 13 and has sex with another man, but neither her husband nor anyone else knows about it. She has defiled herself, even though there was no witness and she was not caught in the act. 14 If her husband becomes jealous and is suspicious of his wife and needs to know whether or not she has defiled herself, 15 the husband must bring his wife to the priest. He must also bring an offering of two quarts of barley flour to be presented on her behalf. Do not mix it with olive oil or frankincense, for it is a jealousy offering—an offering to prove whether or not she is guilty.
16 “The priest will then present her to stand trial before the Lord. 17 He must take some holy water in a clay jar and pour into it dust he has taken from the Tabernacle floor. 18 When the priest has presented the woman before the Lord, he must unbind her hair and place in her hands the offering of proof—the jealousy offering to determine whether her husband’s suspicions are justified. The priest will stand before her, holding the jar of bitter water that brings a curse to those who are guilty. 19 The priest will then put the woman under oath and say to her, ‘If no other man has had sex with you, and you have not gone astray and defiled yourself while under your husband’s authority, may you be immune from the effects of this bitter water that brings on the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray by being unfaithful to your husband, and have defiled yourself by having sex with another man—’
21 “At this point the priest must put the woman under oath by saying, ‘May the people know that the Lord’s curse is upon you when he makes you infertile, causing your womb to shrivel and your abdomen to swell. 22 Now may this water that brings the curse enter your body and cause your abdomen to swell and your womb to shrivel.’ And the woman will be required to say, ‘Yes, let it be so.’ 23 And the priest will write these curses on a piece of leather and wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He will make the woman drink the bitter water that brings on the curse. When the water enters her body, it will cause bitter suffering if she is guilty.
25 “The priest will take the jealousy offering from the woman’s hand, lift it up before the Lord, and carry it to the altar. 26 He will take a handful of the flour as a token portion and burn it on the altar, and he will require the woman to drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself by being unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings on the curse will cause bitter suffering. Her abdomen will swell and her womb will shrink, and her name will become a curse among her people. 28 But if she has not defiled herself and is pure, then she will be unharmed and will still be able to have children. 29 “This is the ritual law for dealing with suspicion. If a woman goes astray and defiles herself while under her husband’s authority, 30 or if a man becomes jealous and is suspicious that his wife has been unfaithful, the husband must present his wife before the Lord, and the priest will apply this entire ritual law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any guilt in this matter, but his wife will be held accountable for her sin.”



Two reasons a woman would have been "shorn":

a) Sotah - the suspect wife.
b) A woman who was taken in captivity to wife.

Deuteronomy 21]10 “Suppose you go out to war against your enemies and the Lord your God hands them over to you, and you take some of them as captives. 11 And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. 12 If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her nails, 13 and change the clothes she was wearing when she was captured. She will stay in your home, but let her mourn for her father and mother for a full month. Then you may marry her, and you will be her husband and she will be your wife. 14 But if you marry her and she does not please you, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her.

For a woman, whose hair is her pride, joy and glory for her husband, having a shorn head is a disgrace and dishonor.

A young girl who wasn't yet betrothed would be uncovered. But as soon as she has agreed to marry and is presented to the man to sign the Ketubah (Marriage contract) she covers herself.

Here is one example:

Genesis 24

61 Then Rebekah and her servant girls mounted the camels and followed the man. So Abraham’s servant took Rebekah and went on his way.

62 Meanwhile, Isaac, whose home was in the Negev, had returned from Beer-lahai-roi. 63 One evening as he was walking and meditating in the fields, he looked up and saw the camels coming. 64 When Rebekah looked up and saw Isaac, she quickly dismounted from her camel. 65 “Who is that man walking through the fields to meet us?” she asked the servant.
And he replied, “It is my master.” So Rebekah covered her head with her veil. 66 Then the servant told Isaac everything he had done. 67 And Isaac brought Rebekah into his mother Sarah’s tent, and she became his wife. He loved her deeply, and she was a special comfort to him after the death of his mother.

For a woman to be uncovered before a man who is not a near relative or her husband, was *enough* to declare her "sotah" (suspect wife).

For anyone interested, there is a very lengthy discussion of "Sotah" in the babylonian talmud which can be read online here (http://www.come-and-hear.com/sotah/index.html).

An interesting thing I came across is that Sotah is better translated "One who goes astray"

Remember the bitter waters in the Exodus that Israel had to drink? Those were waters of testing the Sotah that G-d gave us.

What about Revelation... water becomes bitter...?

Noticing a theme? ;)

There are many other instances and references if we really go and look.

(more later) :)

[cubanito]

This is my position also.

There are times I get upset with DH and want to rip it off my head, but there it is, reminding me that I'm supposed to do the right thing. grr ;)

I wear bandanas for everyday, and have a snood and a lacy white covering that I use on more special occasions.
What or who is DH?

JR

[No Swansong]

What or who is DH?

JR
I think DH means Dear Husband

[oliveplants]

Yes, thank you, JT. DH is dear husband.

[HadassahSukkot]

Ok, here's the promised added info.

Don't freak out.. it is really a TON of info to go through.


Studies on Modest Clothing/Headcovering (Christian, Messianic & Jewish):
For the Ladies! [Open] (http://www.christianforums.com/t75620-for-the-ladies-%5Bopen%5D.html)
USA Today Headcovering Article (http://www.christianforums.com/t3905885)

History of Headcovering and writings on it in Church History: (http://www.covenanter.org/Attire/Headcoverings/headcoverings.htm)
Headcoverings in Scripture - what does church history teach? (http://users.bigpond.net.au/joeflorence/hc.htm)
More church history and headcovering (http://www.expage.com/page/headcovering)
The Status and Role of Women in the 1st Century Messianic Community [This is a PDF file] (http://www.etz-chayim.org/articles/Role%20Status%20Women%201st%20Cent%20Mess%20Comm%20v5.pdf)
Centurion Body - Woman, Prayer and Headcovering (http://www.centurionministry.org/body/head-covering.asp)
Headcovering resource by Renee Ellison (http://www.crossover.ellison.net/Ordering.html#EBooks)<-- too many to mention, also homeschooling material - these are for sale unfortunately (used to be free, but I'm guessing that it cost so much to host on her site) - - Biblical Headcovering: scarf of Hidden Power is well worth the cost!
Headcovering by Ellen Kavanaugh (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/women/headcovering.html)
Headcovering info on Fern's Homestead (http://fernshomestead.com/index3.html)
The Mitzvah of covering the hair (http://headcoverings-by-devorah.com/HeadcoveringArticle.html)
Beneath the Surface: A deeper look at modesty (http://headcoverings-by-devorah.com/BeneathSurface_ModestyArticle.html)
Open Scroll - Relationship between man and woman (http://theopenscroll.com/headcovering.htm)
Women's headcoverings - a Messianic Viewpoint (http://freegroups.net/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/Yeshua_Messianic_Judaism/Womens_headcoverings_a_Messi.shtml)
Biblical Modesty (http://www.wolfeborobible.com/modest.html)
New Testament Pattern - Headcovering and Uncovering (http://www.newtestamentpattern.net/biblestudy/headcovering/introduction.htm)
Scroll Publishing's Christian Women's Headcovering: (http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/headcovering.html)
Headcoverings in the Body of Messiah - EliYah's site (http://www.eliyah.com/talmidim/headcovering.html) (please, ONLY view this one, I cannot vouch for the rest of the site!)
Women's Headcoverings -A Messianic Standpoint (http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jp-fem4.htm)
Miriam, the Virgin of Nazareth (excerpts) by Victor Buksbazen (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/Commentary-MiriamWomenInJewishLifeMarriage.html)
The Church of G-d at Corinth by John Rice (excerpts) (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/Commentary-TheChurchofG-dAtCorinth.html)
Studies in First Corinthians by Millard J Berquist (excerpts) (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/Commentary-MillardBerquist.html)
MacArthur New Testament Commentary on 1 Corinthians - John MacArthur Jr (excerpts) (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/MacArthur-1Corinthians11.html)
Headcovering in Jewish Law (http://www.geocities.com/%7Erabbi1/headcovering.html)

[HadassahSukkot]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/Moderation/spy.gif

[WannaWitness]

I think it can be quite pious, but it can also easily become a source of pride that can be distructive.

That's exactly what I think. It seems to me that the head covering issue is one of those gray areas that everyone has different thoughts on, along with other like issues such as whether or not women should wear pants (or anything bifurbicated), whether or not to play games using playing cards or dice, whether or not Christian music should be played in certain "non-traditional" styles (such as pop or jazz), whether or not a television set has any business in a Christian home... these things only scratching the surface of the debates (some turning into some pretty bloody arguments) I've seen many get into.

But here's how I think. Anyone who has a strong conviction about something or other should follow through with it, but also using caution not to develop a Pharisee-like attitude, and flaunt how much "holier" they might be than other people (Luke 18:9-14 tells of such an account). What we ALL should do, rather, is take a look at Romans chapter 14 -- where nobody is to condemn one another for having a different conviction, nor are we to be a stumblingblock in any way to our brothers and sisters, but focusing on uplifting and edifying one another, as we all share the common bond of having Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and that we are trying our best to obey and serve Him. That is ultimately what counts.

[oliveplants]

That's exactly what I think. It seems to me that the head covering issue is one of those gray areas that everyone has different thoughts on, along with other like issues such as whether or not women should wear pants (or anything bifurbicated), whether or not to play games using playing cards or dice, whether or not Christian music should be played in certain "non-traditional" styles (such as pop or jazz), whether or not a television set has any business in a Christian home... these things only scratching the surface of the debates (some turning into some pretty bloody arguments) I've seen many get into.

But here's how I think. Anyone who has a strong conviction about something or other should follow through with it, but also using caution not to develop a Pharisee-like attitude, and flaunt how much "holier" they might be than other people (Luke 18:9-14 tells of such an account). What we ALL should do, rather, is take a look at Romans chapter 14 -- where nobody is to condemn one another for having a different conviction, nor are we to be a stumblingblock in any way to our brothers and sisters, but focusing on uplifting and edifying one another, as we all share the common bond of having Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and that we are trying our best to obey and serve Him. That is ultimately what counts.
You have a good point. People should not push 'personal convictions' as gospel.

But, the difference between headcoverings and, say TV, is that one is mentioned specifically in scripture, and the other isn't. We can decide about TV for ourselves based on scripture like "I will put no unclean thing before my eyes," but it does come under freedom, because it is possible to have a tv and only watch unoffensive programming. But the headcovering is taught in the Bible and so it doesn't fall under personal conviction.

That's not to say we aren't to be gracious to one another! We all ought to realize that nobody knows everything, and therefore we teach each other in love so we can grow closer to God. But it would be unloving if we didn't encourage one another to holiness.

[WannaWitness]

In my opinion my headcovering is my own hair... that's why I never wear it too short.

That's not to say we aren't to be gracious to one another! We all ought to realize that nobody knows everything, and therefore we teach each other in love so we can grow closer to God. But it would be unloving if we didn't encourage one another to holiness.

Agreed. :)

[LittleladyinChrist]

What a wonderful little thread. Psalm 66, I have been wondering about this issue for a few months now. A few times I wore a covering, it was like an awareness of who I was, and just a feeling of being protected. Im really enjoying all the different information in this post. I pray neither of us or the other ladies on this post would get a holier than thou attitude, but realize that God deals with us all at His own rate. I do have a question though, I work in a Christian bookstore, and my manager does not agree with me wearing a headcovering. I have decided not to wear one at work, because of contention. I think this is the right way to go abouts it:scratch:

[HadassahSukkot]

because of EOE laws, and religious beliefs, one cannot be discriminated on due to the lack of covering nor the covering.

I cover at work with a hat or scarf at all times.
Once my job was in the line of fire; but my boss had hired me on the provision that my modest dress and coverings would not be a point of contention.

There are a lot of mennonites to the north of us about an hour away, and they don't seem to have any problems with equal opportunity employment; why should Messianics, Orthodox Jewish ladies or Christian women who cover? :)

I would suggest talking over your convictions and getting something in writing before giving up.

I almost lost a job over it; and I do not bend to my faith convictions at work at all. Sometimes you win some, sometimes you lose some - but everyone respects someone who stands up to their principles, even if they don't agree with them. :hug:

[LittleladyinChrist]

How do you rectify the ending sentence in the King James Bible that says "if any man seem to be contentious we have no such custom neither the churches of God." Im all for standing on my convictions, no matter what happens. But my manager is my brother in the Lord, but he is staunch Baptist, and if anything goes against that he has a really hard time looking at anything different. It was discussed, but he just kept bugging me about why I believe that, and why he thinks its not right, everyday. So I just went with that ending of the subject in 1 Corinthians 11.

[HadassahSukkot]

The last part is about being contentious- that there is no such custom of being contentious in the body.

Headcovering was a well established custom within Judaism well before it was called "Judaism" - and it was only Abraham and Sarah, Isaac & Rebekah; Rachel, Leah and Jacob...


In fact, the suspect wife was to be publicly humiliated by her headcovering being removed and her hair let down.

If a woman was taken from captivity to wife, not only was her hair uncovered; but it was also shaven off as a sign of mourning.

It is and was a shame within Judaism of the day (and of this day) to have one's hair beared to anyone other than her husband and to have it shorn or shaven.

The only other time a woman would have had her hair shorn or shaven is if she had taken a Nazarite vow for a period of time. When you complete the vow or are defiled; your head was shorn/shaven and your hair was part of the sacrifice to HaShem.


If he has problem with the last passage there is almost nothing you can do to convince him other than to point him in the direction of Judaic, Messianic, Mennonite and other pro-headcovering studies on the passage. Paul is not speaking against Headcovering but establishing it with the new believers of Corinth who did not originally cover or follow the natural order of things that were offered in the home congregations and synagogues.

Contention is something that is not at all accomodated within worship. It's kind of "G-d's way or the highway"...

I've had people try to dissuade me, but the more they try, the more I find reasons to cover, and more support for it in scripture in other passages... as well as historical support.


One of the "Uncleanesses" that the rabbinic courts allowed a husband to divorce his wife over was if she left the house bareheaded (as this was a sign of giving up on her marriage and wanting to be head of the household; as well as adultery)...

Girls at a certain age once betrothed abstained from allowing even a male member of the household to see her hair.

Jewish women were known for their beautiful braiding and going to hairdressers (as well as makeup abilities! :D) to come up with new and innovative ways to hide their hair under scarves and have it nice for the rest of the week/month when at home with her husband. :)

Greece and Rome were exact opposites. Women wore the pants, and were being given new civil-rights to be just like the men; provided they were not married. Egypt was far more progressive in that women were completely emancipated and did not have to answer at all to their husbands.

They did not cover, and modesty on any other level were shunned.

Judaism was different and is different. Modesty and propriety both of the heart/soul and the body are key - we are modest so that everything is special between the spouse and the children are encouraged to follow suit.

The difference in dress and styling from Muslims is that there are different interpretations of what is allowed and not allowed to wear; but it is not a matter of life or death - and it is about comfort and style as much as covering essentials. :)


In simple terms, it is your conviction; and if you do not have a husband or a father you answer to; you answer to G-d directly and your boss cannot dissuade you as he is not your spiritual head. (G-d allows provisions for a young woman or a wife to have her vows abrogated or affirmed by her father or husband if she is legally in his care)

[LittleladyinChrist]

Ok, here's the promised added info.

Don't freak out.. it is really a TON of info to go through.


Studies on Modest Clothing/Headcovering (Christian, Messianic & Jewish):
For the Ladies! [Open] (http://www.christianforums.com/t75620-for-the-ladies-%5Bopen%5D.html)
USA Today Headcovering Article (http://www.christianforums.com/t3905885)

History of Headcovering and writings on it in Church History: (http://www.covenanter.org/Attire/Headcoverings/headcoverings.htm)
Headcoverings in Scripture - what does church history teach? (http://users.bigpond.net.au/joeflorence/hc.htm)
More church history and headcovering (http://www.expage.com/page/headcovering)
The Status and Role of Women in the 1st Century Messianic Community [This is a PDF file] (http://www.etz-chayim.org/articles/Role%20Status%20Women%201st%20Cent%20Mess%20Comm%20v5.pdf)
Centurion Body - Woman, Prayer and Headcovering (http://www.centurionministry.org/body/head-covering.asp)
Headcovering resource by Renee Ellison (http://www.crossover.ellison.net/Ordering.html#EBooks)<-- too many to mention, also homeschooling material - these are for sale unfortunately (used to be free, but I'm guessing that it cost so much to host on her site) - - Biblical Headcovering: scarf of Hidden Power is well worth the cost!
Headcovering by Ellen Kavanaugh (http://www.lightofmashiach.org/women/headcovering.html)
Headcovering info on Fern's Homestead (http://fernshomestead.com/index3.html)
The Mitzvah of covering the hair (http://headcoverings-by-devorah.com/HeadcoveringArticle.html)
Beneath the Surface: A deeper look at modesty (http://headcoverings-by-devorah.com/BeneathSurface_ModestyArticle.html)
Open Scroll - Relationship between man and woman (http://theopenscroll.com/headcovering.htm)
Women's headcoverings - a Messianic Viewpoint (http://freegroups.net/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/Yeshua_Messianic_Judaism/Womens_headcoverings_a_Messi.shtml)
Biblical Modesty (http://www.wolfeborobible.com/modest.html)
New Testament Pattern - Headcovering and Uncovering (http://www.newtestamentpattern.net/biblestudy/headcovering/introduction.htm)
Scroll Publishing's Christian Women's Headcovering: (http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/headcovering.html)
Headcoverings in the Body of Messiah - EliYah's site (http://www.eliyah.com/talmidim/headcovering.html) (please, ONLY view this one, I cannot vouch for the rest of the site!)
Women's Headcoverings -A Messianic Standpoint (http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jp-fem4.htm)
Miriam, the Virgin of Nazareth (excerpts) by Victor Buksbazen (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/Commentary-MiriamWomenInJewishLifeMarriage.html)
The Church of G-d at Corinth by John Rice (excerpts) (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/Commentary-TheChurchofG-dAtCorinth.html)
Studies in First Corinthians by Millard J Berquist (excerpts) (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/Commentary-MillardBerquist.html)
MacArthur New Testament Commentary on 1 Corinthians - John MacArthur Jr (excerpts) (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/MacArthur-1Corinthians11.html)
Headcovering in Jewish Law (http://www.geocities.com/%7Erabbi1/headcovering.html)
The Church of G-d at Corinth by John Rice (excerpts) (http://www.geocities.com/meg-a-bytes/Faith/1_Corinthians_11/Commentary-TheChurchofG-dAtCorinth.html)

This Link is about women and why their hair is a covering, rather then a veil.

[diamondjoust]

It hardly makes sense that God would inspire his apostle Paul to provide a dissertation on why a women should cover her long hair which is her glory, and then promptly annul that teaching by having him say: "we have no such custom". Why would Paul bother writing it all in the first place? The obvious interpretation of the words: "if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom" is that contention among Christians and the churches of God as to what Paul has plainly written by inspiration of God is not to be considered customary, and certainly shouldn't provide us with the opportunity to deceitfully annul his teachings as is done in many of the churches today. Paul says nature teaches us spiritual truths, and there is a natural covering which is the woman's long hair, and there is a spiritual covering, which is a comely veil or scarf which is to cover her long hair which is her natural glory, so that God's glory only is on certain occasions seen. My daughter wears a light, comely scarf in our churches in houses, and when praying or prophesying, and I'm certain her meek and quiet spirit, and simple obedience to the Bible in this matter of the head covering is "in the sight of God of great price".

[kenblaster5000]

as long as you use SCripture to back it up. :blush:

My husband left our 4 children and I about 2 weeks ago and prior to that I had been praying about/studying the custom of headcovering for women. He would not take a position on it and left it to me. I discerned that he did not like the idea and so I did not cover. Now though (and this is why I mentioned that he is divorcing me) I feel I have the freedom/obligation to make this decision for myself.

And so.... lacking adequate fellowship on this subject in real-life, please offer your observations. As a Fundamentalist I think the SCripture is really really clear. But then there is that one where it says the the hair is given to a woman for her covering. If that is the covering though, then it stands to reason that men should shave their heads bald since, if hair is a covering, it is shameful for them to pray/prophesy COVERED.

Let's TALK about this shall we? I really really am seeking the Lord but I want to be sure because I feel it is a life-long decision I am considering.
Is not your hair a covering? Did you shave your head? I think you are alright. Do you prophesy? A man should have no covering when prophesying, but a woman should have her head covered. Something about the angels not knowing whether you are male or female. Why is it it is written that there is no male nor female in the Body of Christ? God bless you.

[psalms66]

So now here's another question to throw out there on this subject. Since I am single now, should I be wearing a covering? Traditionally, only married women wear coverings. Biblically, some translations say "if uncovered a woman dishonours her head (husband)". I have no husband so does that mean I don't need a covering as long as I have long hair?I am trying really hard not to come across as legalistic on this. I don't wish to be. I only wish to be obedient to the LORD. It seems such a confusing subject.

[kobuk]

So now here's another question to throw out there on this subject. Since I am single now, should I be wearing a covering? Traditionally, only married women wear coverings. Biblically, some translations say "if uncovered a woman dishonours her head (husband)". I have no husband so does that mean I don't need a covering as long as I have long hair?I am trying really hard not to come across as legalistic on this. I don't wish to be. I only wish to be obedient to the LORD. It seems such a confusing subject.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=61606173634

I can't answer your question psalms66. But i can share with you this video that i predict will show a lot of women wearing hair covering in Church. I've seen a few of Ian Paisley's sermons on video and was always in admiration of all the women that are shown in the audience who are covered.

Our Creator knows about your sincerity to do what is in obedience to His WORD. If we can see that He sure can.

If i happen to find some more valuable information i will add that to this thread in the future. Sermonaudio has a lot of high quality fundamentalist preachers who do not leave out sections of Scripture just to accomodate those who are pushing for higher church attendance goals.

...peace.

[oliveplants]

HEy, Psalm, that is a good question.

WHen DH did the teaching on headcovering at our church, there was a widow in the group and she asked about her status; who is she honoring by covering her hair? DH suggested that since she is not tied to a male 'head' she goes straight to God as her head. (KInda like the catholic nuns being "married to God")

I really think this is something you'll have to come to peace with yourself. What would be the purpose of the covering in your situation? Do you feel it's needed, regardless of marital status, to pray and prophecy? DO you consider yourself free and single, or temporarily unmarried? (Would that make a difference?)

I don't know what the traditional approach would be to this matter.

[PretzelMonger]

I have thought on and off about wearing a headcovering. I really can't afford to get anything at the moment but I also feel that I would be looked down upon for wanting to cover up like that. I'd be more likely to use a "sunbonnet" type covering on myself, but I think others at church and definitely around town would find it silly. What do you think?

Pax,

Briana

[IronWill]

I believe in the headcovering. I don't make it an issue of contention, but I do believe that it was commanded by God. It's a headship issue. 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 make this pretty clear.

As for verse 16, think of it as a sarcastic comment. All the churches practiced the wearing of the covering. So Paul in essence was saying "If somebody's going to fight about it, look at the other churches. Do they wear the headcovering? Or do you think your church is the only one this applies to?"

[oliveplants]

Well, I don't know if other people thought it was silly...

But I sure felt silly! (at first) I hate to stick out at all, and felt very odd to have something on my head, but now I am so used to it that when I go without it is like going without a bra.

It does witness, though. People recognize me around town (store clerks, etc) and I think that is why. WHenever I am recognized, it reminds me to watch my behavior because others are!

(I usually wear a bandana; they are about $1 each, and I shape it and sew down the folded part so it's always ready to go. Secured with 2 bobby pins it stays in place all day, and worn that way it's clear that I'm not wearing it for style.)

[PretzelMonger]

Now if I only I can find some fabric I like and just MAKE one...hopefully something we already have. At least it is almost March. (Dad gets paid...I have no job of my own right now, and am really not supposed to! SSI issues.)

[PretzelMonger]

My mother supports my decision as it is mine and mine alone!

[Shalico2007]

I think a headcovering is very personal, and if one has a conviction to wear one, then they should.

[PretzelMonger]

I am just glad she understood when I told her; did not laugh etc.