A proposal and a challenge regarding Bible authority/validity

[elsbeth]

I've been reading and participating in another thread about the Bible. A lot of the posts on that thread hinge on whether or not we accept the Bible as authoritative and 100% God's word; and a lot of the arguments used are along the lines of "because it just is", and have gotten down to opinions and emotions.

I'm proposing here another thread about the authority of the Bible, with a few loose "rules", such as not using pure opinion as proof (no -"it's true bacause it is, everybody knows that") and so trying to get away from the emotional. I don't have a problem with quotes from the Bible, as long as they aren't out of context, are from a reasonably, generally accepted translation/version, and as long as we take the LITERAL meanings of the words. What about using Strong's Concordance for the meanings? Or a generally accepted dictionary? I also don't have a problem with personal revelation (although other people will probably not accept it as proof).

I say that there is no conclusive proof that the Bible is 100% God's words, and that even the Bible itself doesn't really say this!
If you believe strongly that the Bible is 100% God's words then PROVE IT TO ME and to those others reading who don't think so. Anyone game?

[tturt]

Here's a couple of verses -

2Ti 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

Joh 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

If we think some of The Word is accurate and other verses aren't, if we follow that line of thinking, then which verses are correct and which ones aren't? Perhaps the ones I agree with and the ones I don't, aren't accurate?

Our logic? Our reasoning? Our thoughts aren't His, that's the reason we have to renew our minds. Our God, the Lord of the Universe, is well capable of watching over His Word.

Jer 1:12 "Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it."

"...my word..." sounds pretty possesive to me. Same here -

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

We either believe the Word or we don't. Our interpretation of The Word might not be correct But that's on us not the Lord.

[elsbeth]

Here's a couple of verses -

2Ti 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
This verse is always quoted as proof. But if one takes the words literally they say inspired and profitable. I have no problem believing that, because those words do not say that all scipture is written by God, inerrant, infallible, or any of those things that people claim


Joh 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
This is talking about Jesus, not the Bible.



Jer 1:12 "Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it."



Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
Again, not about the Bible, God's words don't HAVE TO mean the Bible. And certainly this was written in the OT, long before the NT, and wasn't written about the NT.
I'm NOT claiming to "know it all". I'm asking for proof. Or in there NOT any proof? Is it ALL opinion?

[SteelDisciple]

Honestly. I don't think there is anyway to prove it to OTHER PEOPLE that the Bible is 100% true.

The Holy Spirit is the only source of absolute proof. And that can't be shared.

[marke]

I've been reading and participating in another thread about the Bible. A lot of the posts on that thread hinge on whether or not we accept the Bible as authoritative and 100% God's word; and a lot of the arguments used are along the lines of "because it just is", and have gotten down to opinions and emotions.

I'm proposing here another thread about the authority of the Bible, with a few loose "rules", such as not using pure opinion as proof (no -"it's true bacause it is, everybody knows that") and so trying to get away from the emotional. I don't have a problem with quotes from the Bible, as long as they aren't out of context, are from a reasonably, generally accepted translation/version, and as long as we take the LITERAL meanings of the words. What about using Strong's Concordance for the meanings? Or a generally accepted dictionary? I also don't have a problem with personal revelation (although other people will probably not accept it as proof).

I say that there is no conclusive proof that the Bible is 100% God's words, and that even the Bible itself doesn't really say this!
If you believe strongly that the Bible is 100% God's words then PROVE IT TO ME and to those others reading who don't think so. Anyone game?
Go girl.

[marke]

Honestly. I don't think there is anyway to prove it to OTHER PEOPLE that the Bible is 100% true.

The Holy Spirit is the only source of absolute proof. And that can't be shared.
F A I T H.

Faith. Faith that the one you proclaim is God the Father who created you, me, the stars and the universe is competent enough to arrange letters into words, words into sentences, sentences into paragraphs, paragraphs into pages of text, pages of text into the beautiful communication with mankind we call the Bible in the exact manner he chooses.

Without faith all is lost.

God chose to interact with the jewish people to reveal Himself to the world in a way He had not done before.

"I AM" He proclaimed and then proceeded to document His interaction with the Jews over thousands of years. The One God said this will happen and it did. God said this would happen and it did time and time again in prophecy to establish His existence in the minds of men.

But they didn't listen. God gave the descendents of Abraham the Ten Commandments and they didn't listen. The purpose of the OT was to prove, without a doubt (say it again) without a doubt that He, God existed and to point the way to The Word that would salvage the evil mess called humanity.

The first agreement didn't work so God spoke of a second agreement, a better agreement that was to come and gave a set of criteria that would need to be met to prove whom was The Word.

The Word came, fulfilling the promise of God. Fulfilling the prophecies which spoke of Him to the letter. The "Kingdom of Heaven" is at hand The Word proclaimed and proceeded to teach something quite different than that contained in the OT. You may have heard it said "and eye for an eye" but now I say, DO NOT return evil for evil.

But people wanted to believe what they wanted to believe as they do today. They chose the evil of the world over the light of life. The Father gave His Son, The Word of eternal life, for humanity to follow, but instead they tried to shut off The Word by nailing Him to a cross.

Only The Word came back, just as He said He would defeating death and fear for those who chose His way rather than the corruption of the world.

When The Word appeared to His astounded followers a few days after His death, The Word opened their mind to all the scripture (OT) which speaks all about Him, proving without a doubt Jesus is the Christ spoken of.

All scripture is indeed useful for the exact reason Jesus speaks of. You too can open your mind to the truth that points to the Christ. This is the reason for the OT. To prove without a doubt (to those who don't harden their hearts) that 1) A greater power than you exists and is your creator and 2) Jesus is the Christ you are to follow if you desire eternal life in the company of your creator. No goats allowed.

Many here in these forums profess to be saved by their faith and yet their writings show them to be misguided. Faith starts with the acknowledgement of God our Father and that He is as He says and He says "I AM".

Once you agree God controls everything (Psm 139) fast forward to God's NEW AGREEMENT with humanity brought by Jesus Christ. It is quite different than the Old agreement which is meant to fade away because the OT was a means to an end, and the end was the NEW Testament brought by the Christ Jesus which replaced the OT.

Jesus says "I am the way". Follow My actions, My teaching and you'll win the peace of the Kingdom of Heaven within. Follow the ways of the world and never find peace.

This is known as your free choice. Trust God or not.

There is no proof elsbeth. This is the faith which is spoken of. You either believe without reservation or you don't. Our Lord Jesus says "Seek and you shall find". The more you study the New Testament, the more you find and your faith builds.

When the Lord Jesus called me I had the good fortune to have good guides. They took me back through the OT and said see here and here and here and here speak about Jesus until I was led to Jesus and the NT. They showed me how to leave the world and become a rock in a stream; to let go of the world and let God run His show. I never looked back. Thanks be to God for His mercy on my soul.

Those whose faith is not strong enough to believe our God is competent enough to keep His Word from being polluted by man often say the Bible is manipulated. I beg to differ. Imagine if you will, all the hands and minds of man over time who have contributed to the Bible as we know it today and STILL if contains the roadmap leading to the New Testament of Christ Jesus.

I wouldn't call that manipulation. I'd call that reaffirmation.

God Bless. II COR 9:15

[salida]

Else...

The Bible has stronger manuscript support than any other work of classical history including Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Caesar and Tacitus. Also, the Bible has been virtually unaltered since the original writing as attested by scholars who have compared the earliest manuscripts with manuscripts written centuries later.

Its affirmed by the testimony of its authors, who were eyewitnesses or close associates of eyewitnesses to the recorded events and by secular historians who confirm the many events, people, places and customs chronicled in Scripture.

In addition, there is archaeological evidence which is a powerful witness to the accuracy of the New Testament documents. This evidence is has been continuous throughout time til today and more evidence I'm sure in the next 5 years - its nonstop.

There are biblical records of predictions of events that could not be known nor predicted by chance or common sense. For example, the book of Daniel was written before 530 B.C. accurately predicts the progression of kingdoms from Babylon through the Medo-Persian Empire , Greek Empire and then the Roman Empire - culminating in the persecution and suffering of the Jews under Antiochus IV with his desecration of the temple, his untimely death and freedom for the Jews under Judas Maccabeus (165 B.B.).

It is statistically unreal that any or all of the Bible specific, detailed prophecies could have been fulfilled by chance, good guessing or deliberate deceit. (This is just one example out of hundreds of prophesies like this).

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"; 2 Timothy 3:16.

[FollowTheLamb]

"I say that there is no conclusive proof that the Bible is 100% God's words, and that even the Bible itself doesn't really say this! If you believe strongly that the Bible is 100% God's words then PROVE IT TO ME and to those others reading who don't think so. Anyone game?"

You are approaching this in the right manner. You are questioning what others have said and not accepting their comments at face value. Your next step is to be a Berean: "These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received th eword with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11).

In other words, what does God's Word say about itself? I'm not concerned about whether or not it uses the same phrases believers use - frankly I think too many believers quote each other with sound bites - but what does it actually say? I suggest you approach the Word in that context. Start from the beginning of Matthew and read on to Revelation.

No - there is no quick answer that will satisfy you. You will have to kneel before the Lord and seek the answer from Him. When He Himself speaks to you from His Word, then you will know. The Word is living, and so is the God who speaks through it. When you find God speaking to you, then you'll know the authority behind the Word!

[New_Wineskin]

I've been reading and participating in another thread about the Bible. A lot of the posts on that thread hinge on whether or not we accept the Bible as authoritative and 100% God's word; and a lot of the arguments used are along the lines of "because it just is", and have gotten down to opinions and emotions.

A good post . However , my desire for you is that you actually get what you ask . I have never been answered when I ask such questions . I started a thread a while ago and asked for *Scriptures only* to support the Scriptures only doctrine . I also asked that the passages be clear to the point of the doctrine so that interpretation is not needed . All I got were one or two passages not having anything to do with the doctrine and a lot of explanation which was against my request for Scriptures only .

Scriptural authority is really quite interesting since none obey all of the Scriptures . They demand that people obey their favorits laws but spit on those they don't like .

If the Scriptures support biblical authority , they would definitely support the Law more so than any of the newer writings . Why is that ? Because , anything in the older writings supporting Scriptural authority would refer to the Law as the Law represents the written commands to be followed . Now , with regards to the newer writings , anything even relating to the authority of the Scriptures would be looking directly at the Law , as well . The only Scriptures that they considered to be Scriptures were the older writings . COntextually , they would be referring to the Law *if* they were actually supporting Scriptural authority .

That being said , one can find many references that do away with Scriptural authority ( at least , for the *Gentiles* ) . There is the council at Jerusalem that wrote only three things to do and not have the Gentiles be under the Law ( ie Scriptural authority as *they* knew it at the time ) . Paul goes on and on about the doctrine of Scriptural authority in several of his writings - declaring that going by that doctrine is not by faith . The author if Hebrews discusses it , as well .

There are those that say that the authrority of the older writings no longer has authority . And , they only mention this after first declaring Scriptural authority and then shown where they violate many commands - showing them to be hypocrites . Yet , Paul writes that if *any* written set of laws could bring righteousness , it would be the Law - not *Paul's* or any other apostle's writings - the Law . Paul also tells those that go to Scriptural authority negate the gospel . He says that he wished of those that demanded Scriptural authority and demanded Gentile's be circumcized that they would emasulate themselves .

[Zecryphon]

I've been reading and participating in another thread about the Bible. A lot of the posts on that thread hinge on whether or not we accept the Bible as authoritative and 100% God's word; and a lot of the arguments used are along the lines of "because it just is", and have gotten down to opinions and emotions.

I'm proposing here another thread about the authority of the Bible, with a few loose "rules", such as not using pure opinion as proof (no -"it's true bacause it is, everybody knows that") and so trying to get away from the emotional. I don't have a problem with quotes from the Bible, as long as they aren't out of context, are from a reasonably, generally accepted translation/version, and as long as we take the LITERAL meanings of the words. What about using Strong's Concordance for the meanings? Or a generally accepted dictionary? I also don't have a problem with personal revelation (although other people will probably not accept it as proof).

I say that there is no conclusive proof that the Bible is 100% God's words, and that even the Bible itself doesn't really say this!
If you believe strongly that the Bible is 100% God's words then PROVE IT TO ME and to those others reading who don't think so. Anyone game?
Here is some of what I was taught about the bible at my former church. If this is not proof or evidence to you then please dismiss it.

As to the composition of the bible, the bible is made up of 66 books, 39 Old Testament and 27 New Testament. The bible authors used different styles of writing: historical, poetic and prophetic.

It was composed by more than 40 different authors, from a variety of backgrounds: doctors, fishermen, kings, shepherds, etc. It was written over a period of 1600 years on 3 different continents: Asia, Africa and Europe. It was written in 3 different languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. A book that has all these different authors from all over the world and from different periods of time writing what they believe to be true about God because God revealed it to them have produced a book that is essentially without error. How is this possible? That alone is evidence enough for me that the bible is indeed God's revelation of Himself to human beings.

[WesWoodell]

A good book to read: The Canon of Scripture by F.F. Bruce. ( http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Scripture-Frederick-Fyvie-Bruce/dp/083081258X )

If you're truly a truth seeker (and not simply an argument seeker) you may find some answers there. Bruce is one of the leading and most knowledgable biblical scholars this world has seen.

I would also recommend that you read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel ( http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307/sr=1-1/qid=1163085141/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0410783-2733748?ie=UTF8&s=books ).

Jesus certainly thought that Scripture was authoritatively God's word ... I'd recommend you spend some more time studying this issue if you're wondering. Truth will always stand up to the hardest questions if it is really truth.

If the Bible truly is God's word and you treat it like its not for most of your spiritual life, you may be in big trouble.

[elsbeth]

I don't throw out the Bible. I simply think it is a mixed bag. It contains history which was written down long after the events happened; it contains prophecy which the writers state is given to them from God (I can accept that); it contains the psalms which are pretty much love letters to God (I pray psalms sometimes, if I can't find my own words); it contains sensual poetry (Song of Solomon); it contains the accounts of Jesus' life here on earth; it contains books of advice and teaching.
If you read it carefully you have to see that not every writer understood God in the same way. Jesus taught about a loving, caring Father. At the same time the book of Job has God allowing the devil to kill Job's servants and then his children, just to try to prove whether or not Job would curse God if things got too bad. Is that the same loving Father that Jesus said God is? There's another thread running that got into Calvinist predestination. Some people interpret scriptures to show that God "foreordained" certain people to be saved, but chose that others would not be saved. For what reason? None that we can understand. Is this the loving God that Jesus talked about? Is He only loving to those He pre-selected?

My argument against the Bible being word of God as if He wrote it: For this to be true, for there to be no human errors, personal opinions/predjudices, errors in translation or copying, God would have had to be so in control of each writer/copier/translator/ that He controlled what they did. COULD God do this? OF COURSE HE COULD. But DID He? He does not control us unless we allow Him to, and even when we are trying to give Him control don't we slip up and go by our own way sometimes? Why would we think the writer/copiers/translators were any different? Because they lived a long time ago and people were holier then?

I don't throw out the Bible. It's a book like no other. God uses it mightily. He has used it in my own life. But to claim it is 100% God's words, inerrant, infallible, etc. IS PUTTING WORDS IN GOD'S MOUTH! He, Himself, doesn't say any of that anywhere that I can find. If you say He does, then WHERE?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm concerned by how many people almost worship the Bible. On another thread someone posted "the BIBLE IS God". I'm sorry, but that's blasphemy. The Bible is a wondrous and unique book. But it is STILL a book.

[Zecryphon]

"But to claim it is 100% God's words, inerrant, infallible, etc. IS PUTTING WORDS IN GOD'S MOUTH! He, Himself, doesn't say any of that anywhere that I can find. If you say He does, then WHERE?"


My former church gave me a handout during my membership class entitled: "The Accuracy of the Bible: Does It Have Errors" by Dr. John Bechtle of www.christiananswers.net (http://www.christiananswers.net).


This is an excerpt:


"However, classic Christianity rests on the assurance that the Bible is completely accurate. It may contain statements that are 1) figures of speech; 2) non-technical descriptions; or 3) difficult to understand. But actual errors would fall into a different kind of category. If there are any errors in Scripture, no matter how small, the book can no longer be our standard of truth. I become the standard of truth, as I determine which Bible statements are right and which are wrong. And if I can't trust God to get the facts straight on things like dates and measurements (where I can check on Him), why should I expect Him to be more accurate in areas like sin and salvation (where I can't check on Him)?"


Near the end it states that the bible itself doesn't use the word inerrant, but the idea is obvious.



Psalm 19:7-9 ESV



7 The law of the LORD is perfect,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2019:7-9;&version=47;#fen-ESV-14176a)] reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.


Psalm 119:43 ESV



43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, for my hope is in your rules.


Psalm 119:42 ESV


42 then shall I have an answer for him who taunts me, for I trust in your word.


Psalm 119:160 ESV


160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.


John 17:17 ESV


17 Sanctify them[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:17;&version=47;#fen-ESV-26762a)] in the truth; your word is truth.


The handout then goes on to say: "An inaccurate Bible contradicts God's character quality of absolute truthfulness."


Titus 1:2 ESV


2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%201:2;&version=47;#fen-ESV-29874a)]


Hebrews 6:18 ESV


18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

[elsbeth]

Yes, a lot of churches say those things about the Bible. I understand that. But I don't see where they get it. For some people, anywhere in the Bible that mentions "word" they take that to be about the Bible. Never mind that the verse may be OT and written long before the NT. They still figure it means the whole Bible. And many claim that if one questions the Bible they are calling God a liar. I KNOW God is not a liar, and I don't belive any of the writers of the Bible LIED. I just think they were human, and therefore fallible. My faith is in God, not in the Bible. How then do I know right or wrong or God's will? Certainly God uses the Bible to teach me, but He also uses other books, other people, and He teaches me directly thru the Holy Spirit.

[MarkEvan]

Hi Elsbeth,


A proposal and a challenge regarding Bible authority/validity


I've been reading and participating in another thread about the Bible. A lot of the posts on that thread hinge on whether or not we accept the Bible as authoritative and 100% God's word; and a lot of the arguments used are along the lines of "because it just is", and have gotten down to opinions and emotions.

I'm proposing here another thread about the authority of the Bible, with a few loose "rules", such as not using pure opinion as proof (no -"it's true bacause it is, everybody knows that") and so trying to get away from the emotional. I don't have a problem with quotes from the Bible, as long as they aren't out of context, are from a reasonably, generally accepted translation/version, and as long as we take the LITERAL meanings of the words. What about using Strong's Concordance for the meanings? Or a generally accepted dictionary? I also don't have a problem with personal revelation (although other people will probably not accept it as proof).

I say that there is no conclusive proof that the Bible is 100% God's words, and that even the Bible itself doesn't really say this!
If you believe strongly that the Bible is 100% God's words then PROVE IT TO ME and to those others reading who don't think so. Anyone game?



Firstly may I ask what you mean by authoritive, do you mean that if the bible says this on a subject but I or someone else believes something different, the bible is authoriteve so we must accept that?
Secondly I agree that the scriptures were not writen directly by God, but as you have stated were inspired for men to write down, I will say however that what the scriptures say in terms of principles is definetly the words of God, if I may lets look at the OT, by Jesus time the OT was a collective piece and all the books that we have know were there then, Jesus to my knowledge never said do not accept this or that about any particular book but rather quoted from them, which I believe was His way of saying they and what was in them was valid, Jesus also used the scriptures against satan in the wilderness using them to correct the twisted view that the devil had put on them.
As Jesus said "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God," I accept that here He is talking spiritually about Himself, but if we accept that the scriptures are at least inspired by God then this is where we go to find out about Jesus and the Father, and I believe the same about the NT.
Paul always made a point at the begining of his epistles to give his credentials as an apostle, stating a few times that he recieved personal revelation from Christ, the other apostles who walked with our Lord for three years, the scrptures say of them that the Holy Spirit bought back to their minds what Jesus had said, couple this with what Jesus says in John 7 (16 I think) "anyone that resolves to do the will of God will know that I am not speaking on my own authority ..but am only saying what I heard from the Father," (the last bit I don`t believe it says however it does say that in lots of places in the scriptures) If Jesus says that He only spoke what He heard from the Father i believe it is reasonable that these people only spoke what they heard from the Father through Jesus.
finally as Jeus said in john 8 30+ "continue in my word if you are truelly my disciples and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free," is Jesus here refering to Himself or is He refering to His words as revealed by scripture? What do you think?

Mark :)

[Zecryphon]

"Yes, a lot of churches say those things about the Bible. I understand that. But I don't see where they get it."

They probably get those things from their interpretation of the bible verses themselves.

"For some people, anywhere in the Bible that mentions "word" they take that to be about the Bible."

I think that would depend on the context of the verse. For instance, I take John 1:1 to be talking about Jesus and not the bible.

"Never mind that the verse may be OT and written long before the NT."

Well you have to view the bible as a collection of books rather than as one long book. It is a collection of writings from various authors, from various continents, who spoke various languages and held various jobs and wrote about God at various times. Through all that there is not one contradiction. That's a collection of writings with a supernatural origin, as in the original author who is God. I believe God used humans to record His words the way we use a pen to write a letter.

"They still figure it means the whole Bible. And many claim that if one questions the Bible they are calling God a liar."

Only by questioning something can you ever hope to increase your knowledge of it. If we just took the bible at face value and never questioned what is inside of it, how could we know that it is true?

"I KNOW God is not a liar, and I don't belive any of the writers of the Bible LIED. I just think they were human, and therefore fallible."

Of course they were fallible, but this is where faith comes in. If God is dictating what is to be written to these authors, can God not also ensure that no mistakes are made? I believe He can. Now I also believe that the original manuscripts were the inerrant manuscripts. Since we don't have the originals anymore but instead copies of the originals, it is possible that there are translational errors in the manuscripts that we derive the bible from.

A good example is the new discovery of an ancient papyrus manuscript that reveals that the true number of the beast may be 616 instead of the number we all know of 666. Click below to read the article.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134/beasts-real-mark-devalued-to-616

"My faith is in God, not in the Bible."

The bible is one of the ways God has chosen to reveal Himself to us. Another one is creation.

"How then do I know right or wrong or God's will?"

One way is to go to God Himself in prayer and ask for the ability to discern what is God's will and what would He have you do. If you are still unsure about what has been revealed to you through prayer, search the scriptures and see if the answer you were given lines up with what the scriptures say. Then you will know if this is the will of God or a latent desire you have that has come to the surface.

"Certainly God uses the Bible to teach me, but He also uses other books, other people, and He teaches me directly thru the Holy Spirit."

Yes, God is not limited to the bible alone. Therefore you should not be limited to the bible alone.

[FollowTheLamb]

Is the Bible 100% authoritative? Let's break it down so we can understand what's being said here. Is a calculus textbook 100% authoritative? Yes, but only regarding the subject matter of calculus. It is not 100% or even 1% authoritative regarding English grammar or science. Is the Bible 100% authoritative regarding science? No. On what issues is it authoritative? It is authoritative when it speaks of life after death. What other book can speak with such authority? When it speaks of the heart of God. Can the novels on my shelves approach that kind of authority? When it speaks of sin and salvation. What other religion tells about a God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and paved the way ahead of time thousands of years earlier with the sin offering among the Jews? The Bible is 100% authoritative about many other things that we simply can't get from any other trustworthy sources. And when those source are trustworthy, like other Christian books, guess where they get their authority from?

[elsbeth]

There is no proof elsbeth. This is the faith which is spoken of. You either believe without reservation or you don't. Our Lord Jesus says "Seek and you shall find". The more you study the New Testament, the more you find and your faith builds.


I have faith in God, in His power and His Mercy and His compassion, and all the oher wonderful words we can use. I just don't have faith that the Bible is all the things people claim. It is a wonderful book written about God by people who knew Him, but it is a book. To quetion it is NOT the same as questioning God.

[elsbeth]

Hi Elsbeth,
Firstly may I ask what you mean by authoritive, do you mean that if the bible says this on a subject but I or someone else believes something different, the bible is authoriteve so we must accept that?

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean. If we're talking about the ten commandments or Jesus' teachings or such then yes, I am willing to accept that as the authority. But I've heard people take some fairly obscure verse (sometimes out of context) and argue about EACH WORD. I've heard people argue that women had better cover their heads in church and that men better not have long hair because the Bible says so. Well, yes, it does, but do we really believe that we should take thse verses as the authority now? And then we can get into different translations/versions using somewhat different wording, do we all have to go back nto the original languages? I just don't think that the Bible as a whole should be used as "the final authority" in that manner.
I will say however that what the scriptures say in terms of principles is definetly the words of God,
I agree. I don't argue with this. And I think that as a whole the Bible presents a pretty clear picture of God. I DO think Jesus presented a clearer picture than does the OT.

Jesus to my knowledge never said do not accept this or that about any particular book but rather quoted from them, which I believe was His way of saying they and what was in them was valid, Jesus also used the scriptures against satan in the wilderness using them to correct the twisted view that the devil had put on them.

I'm not sure that Jesus quoting from them was endorsing all of the Bible. Satan did what a lot of people do today. He found verses to support his agenda.


Paul always made a point at the begining of his epistles to give his credentials as an apostle, stating a few times that he recieved personal revelation from Christ, the other apostles who walked with our Lord for three years, the scrptures say of them that the Holy Spirit bought back to their minds what Jesus had said,
I take the NT letters as I do writings from any other Christian writer (yes, I do agree that the NT writers have more authority than MOST). The letters are very good advice, we should read them, we should try to follow them. Are they infallible, inerrant? I don't think so.

finally as Jeus said in john 8 30+ "continue in my word if you are truelly my disciples and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free," is Jesus here refering to Himself or is He refering to His words as revealed by scripture? What do you think?

Mark :)
I think that Jesus was talking about Himself as He revealed Himself, and as the Holy Spirit reveals Him.

Thank you for a well thought out answer to my OP.

[elsbeth]

I believe God used humans to record His words the way we use a pen to write a letter.
The Bible itself doesn't (at least not clearly, in so many words, in the literal meaning of the words) say this. My argument is that we, as fallible humans, EVEN WHEN WE ARE TRYING TO LET GOD HAVE CONTROL, still sometimes let our own beliefs and thoughts and predjudices intrude. I don't see that the writers of theBible would have been any different. There are books of prophesy where the writer says basiclly that God dictated to him, but most of the books make no such claim.
I guess it does just come down to the interpretation of the verses.


"How then do I know right or wrong or God's will?"

One way is to go to God Himself in prayer and ask for the ability to discern what is God's will and what would He have you do. If you are still unsure about what has been revealed to you through prayer, search the scriptures and see if the answer you were given lines up with what the scriptures say. Then you will know if this is the will of God or a latent desire you have that has come to the surface.

I have no problem with this. I agree that any answer I would receive from God will certainly line up with the main sense of the Bible, with the principles which it teaches.

[elsbeth]

Is the Bible 100% authoritative? ...What other book can speak with such authority? When it speaks of the heart of God. Can the novels on my shelves approach that kind of authority? When it speaks of sin and salvation. What other religion tells about a God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and paved the way ahead of time thousands of years earlier with the sin offering among the Jews? The Bible is 100% authoritative about many other things that we simply can't get from any other trustworthy sources.
2nd part answered first: What other authority? The same authority which the writers of the Bible got their inspiration from. The Holy Spirit. Direct from God.

1st part: I posted this in another post above, showing a couple of examples of where I DON'T think the Bible is 100% authoratative.
If you read it carefully you have to see that not every writer understood God in the same way. Jesus taught about a loving, caring Father. At the same time the book of Job has God allowing the devil to kill Job's servants and then his children, just to try to prove whether or not Job would curse God if things got too bad. Is that the same loving Father that Jesus said God is? There's another thread running that got into Calvinist predestination. Some people interpret scriptures to show that God "foreordained" certain people to be saved, but chose that others would not be saved. For what reason? None that we can understand. Is this the loving God that Jesus talked about? Is He only loving to those He pre-selected?"
What do you think about this? I would like to hear opinions.