Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit?

[Simon_Templar]

I've run across this teaching in the Catholic church before.

Mary is the Daughter of the Father
The Mother of the Son
The Spouse of the Holy Spirit

This is also usually linked to the idea that God does whatever Mary tells Him to do, and that God only gives grace through the suplication of Mary.

Personally I find this teaching to be completely abhorrent. I find it to be insulting to Mary, as much as to God.

Catholics always insist that they do not worship Mary, nor regard Mary as divine. Yet in this line of thinking some Catholics do ascribe to Mary the quality of omnipotence since she can get God to do anything she wants.

I find this attitude to be worshipful of, and ascribing divine characteristics to Mary.

The idea that any human being commands the will of God is insulting both to the sovereignty of God and to the holiness of the human involved.
This view essentially turns Mary into a meddling, interfering, busy body, mother.


I know alot of Catholics who do not agree with the view presented above. However, at some point all the protestations that they don't worship Mary and don't confer divinity upon Mary become empty in the face of teachings like this which really do.

So what do you think? am I off base?

[gtsecc]

I believe the Roman Catholic teachings about Mary are incorrect, and generally way over done.

I believe the Orthodox teachings are spot on, but in the liturgy, she is still emphasized way too much. And, the liturgy is the teaching, so what do you do?

I believe most Protestants have simply taken all Roman Catholic teachings about Mary, both true and untrue and dumped them out of the window. This too, is obviously an error.

[SumTinWong]

I've run across this teaching in the Catholic church before.

Mary is the Daughter of the Father
The Mother of the Son
The Spouse of the Holy Spirit

I have run across the same but I am unclear if the "spouse" part is official teaching and not just part of pias thoughts.

This is also usually linked to the idea that God does whatever Mary tells Him to do, and that God only gives grace through the suplication of Mary.
Although that is one way of putting it, it really does not give the teaching justice. Basically without going into it too far (because I believe it is far fetched), Mary's will is locked with the will of God therefore if she asks of it, it is already His will to begin with. Mary would never ask for anything that is not in the will of God to begin with. That is from what i understand, somebody PM me with the correct thoughts and I will post them here.

Personally I find this teaching to be completely abhorrent. I find it to be insulting to Mary, as much as to God.
When you state it the way you state it, it IS abhorrent to God. It is however the belif of the Catholic church (at least in a mystical way) that all graces flow through Mary since the author of that Grace came from her womb. So when people are saying this it is because they believe it was through the obedience of Mary that we recieve these graces or in short . . .

Catholics always insist that they do not worship Mary, nor regard Mary as divine. Yet in this line of thinking some Catholics do ascribe to Mary the quality of omnipotence since she can get God to do anything she wants.
While admit it is tempting to try and distort the actual teaching of the Roman church remember that people wax poetically about her quite a bit and not everything that is put on paper is the law of the church. Please go to the OBOB and ask them what this teaching entails and I am sure they will correct my mistakes as well as yours on this matter :)

So what do you think? am I off base?
Yes a little. Now do I think that some of the poetry is overboard and out of line? Certainly, as Glenn said the Orthodox seem to have a better way of putting things that we can generally accept.

[SumTinWong]

By the wya in my opinion calling Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit is wrong, in that Mary had a spouse (Joseph) and for her to have to would have been adultery. JMHO.

[Simon_Templar]

I have run across the same but I am unclear if the "spouse" part is official teaching and not just part of pias thoughts.


Although that is one way of putting it, it really does not give the teaching justice. Basically without going into it too far (because I believe it is far fetched), Mary's will is locked with the will of God therefore if she asks of it, it is already His will to begin with. Mary would never ask for anything that is not in the will of God to begin with. That is from what i understand, somebody PM me with the correct thoughts and I will post them here.


When you state it the way you state it, it IS abhorrent to God. It is however the belif of the Catholic church (at least in a mystical way) that all graces flow through Mary since the author of that Grace came from her womb. So when people are saying this it is because they believe it was through the obedience of Mary that we recieve these graces or in short . . .


While admit it is tempting to try and distort the actual teaching of the Roman church remember that people wax poetically about her quite a bit and not everything that is put on paper is the law of the church. Please go to the OBOB and ask them what this teaching entails and I am sure they will correct my mistakes as well as yours on this matter :)


Yes a little. Now do I think that some of the poetry is overboard and out of line? Certainly, as Glenn said the Orthodox seem to have a better way of putting things that we can generally accept.
I realize the distinction you made regarding the statement "God does whatever Mary tells him" and I thought about giving a better explanation of it.

However, when I was presented (by a Catholic friend) with some of the writings of a couple of Doctors of the Church who taught this doctrine, they flat out said that Mary was omnipotent and that it was the pleasure of God in his three persons, to do whatever Mary asked. The clear implication was that we should be devoted to Mary because if we can convince her to bring our request to God, then God will do it, but otherwise he might not.

I feel that the implication and the motivation in this idea really does include the unacknoledged idea that Mary controls the will of God.

Now, this post was prompted by a discussion going on in OBOB. I posted this here because I don't want to debate the issue there in violation of the rules etc.

I do not want to give the impression that this is the official dogma of the church. In the discussion in OBOB, there are several Catholics who also have taken issue with this teaching and have stated that it is not the teaching of the church etc.
However, I do know from my own past reading that a few approved doctors of the church have taught this. Thus wether its official teaching or not, it is approved and obviously allowed.

Even the people who agree with this teaching, however, would still say that they do not worship Mary or ascribe to her divine characteristics, but I believe thats exactly what this teaching does.

[masuwerte]

Sometimes I don't quite get Catholic reasoning. They seem to be saying, "God does what Mary says, because Mary would only ask those things that He would do anyway." If that's the case, why ask her to ask the Father for anything? Why not just pray for His will to be done. Which is what we should be doing anyway, IMHO.

It's like the reasoning behind Papal Infallibility. The Pope can make a mistake, but not when he's guided by the Holy Ghost. How do we know when he had such guidance, in any particular instance? Because he didn't make a mistake.

Maybe this kind of reasoning makes more sense in some language other than English.

[higgs2]

Sometimes I don't quite get Catholic reasoning. They seem to be saying, "God does what Mary says, because Mary would only ask those things that He would do anyway." If that's the case, why ask her to ask the Father for anything? Why not just pray for His will to be done. Which is what we should be doing anyway, IMHO.

It's like the reasoning behind Papal Infallibility. The Pope can make a mistake, but not when he's guided by the Holy Ghost. How do we know when he had such guidance, in any particular instance? Because he didn't make a mistake.

Maybe this kind of reasoning makes more sense in some language other than English.


Maybe Latin? :D

[Simon_Templar]

Sometimes I don't quite get Catholic reasoning. They seem to be saying, "God does what Mary says, because Mary would only ask those things that He would do anyway." If that's the case, why ask her to ask the Father for anything? Why not just pray for His will to be done. Which is what we should be doing anyway, IMHO.

It's like the reasoning behind Papal Infallibility. The Pope can make a mistake, but not when he's guided by the Holy Ghost. How do we know when he had such guidance, in any particular instance? Because he didn't make a mistake.

Maybe this kind of reasoning makes more sense in some language other than English.
There are some Catholic teachings I don't agree with such as Papal Infallability, but I could believe them. I could see myself believing it as it is taught, if I were given proper confirmation of the teaching.

This stuff dealing with Mary I can not. There is simply no way I can even imagine myself believing that the only way to come to Jesus is through Mary. That it is impossible to receive grace from God except through Mary.

[SumTinWong]

However, when I was presented (by a Catholic friend) with some of the writings of a couple of Doctors of the Church who taught this doctrine, they flat out said that Mary was omnipotent and that it was the pleasure of God in his three persons, to do whatever Mary asked. The clear implication was that we should be devoted to Mary because if we can convince her to bring our request to God, then God will do it, but otherwise he might not.

I feel that the implication and the motivation in this idea really does include the unacknoledged idea that Mary controls the will of God.

Now, this post was prompted by a discussion going on in OBOB. I posted this here because I don't want to debate the issue there in violation of the rules etc.

I do not want to give the impression that this is the official dogma of the church. In the discussion in OBOB, there are several Catholics who also have taken issue with this teaching and have stated that it is not the teaching of the church etc.
However, I do know from my own past reading that a few approved doctors of the church have taught this. Thus wether its official teaching or not, it is approved and obviously allowed.

Even the people who agree with this teaching, however, would still say that they do not worship Mary or ascribe to her divine characteristics, but I believe thats exactly what this teaching does.
Okay I see what you are saying. You are correct a few doctors of the church have gone wild with the Mary thing, but I think they were made doctors on the whole of their work not just because of or maybe even in spite of some of the things they put out there. Origen is considered both brilliant and a heretic by certain people for example.

"This stuff dealing with Mary I can not. There is simply no way I can even imagine myself believing that the only way to come to Jesus is through Mary. That it is impossible to receive grace from God except through Mary."
I agree with you there.

[ChessCastle]

I've run across this teaching in the Catholic church before.

Mary is the Daughter of the Father
The Mother of the Son
The Spouse of the Holy Spirit

This is also usually linked to the idea that God does whatever Mary tells Him to do, and that God only gives grace through the suplication of Mary.

Personally I find this teaching to be completely abhorrent. I find it to be insulting to Mary, as much as to God.

Catholics always insist that they do not worship Mary, nor regard Mary as divine. Yet in this line of thinking some Catholics do ascribe to Mary the quality of omnipotence since she can get God to do anything she wants.

I find this attitude to be worshipful of, and ascribing divine characteristics to Mary.

The idea that any human being commands the will of God is insulting both to the sovereignty of God and to the holiness of the human involved.
This view essentially turns Mary into a meddling, interfering, busy body, mother.


I know alot of Catholics who do not agree with the view presented above. However, at some point all the protestations that they don't worship Mary and don't confer divinity upon Mary become empty in the face of teachings like this which really do.

So what do you think? am I off base?

Hello Simon

I think you're a bit off base when you say the idea is God does whatever Mary tells Him to do. This is not a part of any teaching I have seen.

The example you used of Mary being Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and Spouse of the Holy Spirit, is used by St Louis De Montfort, but if you have read his work you will see that he goes through great pains to make certain the reader (or listener) understands that Mary is not to be put on the same level as Christ, the Father or the Holy Spirit. In fact he begins one of his writings by stating

I avow, with all the Church, that Mary, being a mere creature that has come from the hands of the Most High, is in comparison with His infinite Majesty less than an atom: or rather she is nothing at all, because only He is "He who is" (Exod. 3:14) consequently that grand lord always independent, and sufficient to Himself, never had, and has not now, any absolute need of the holy Virgin for the accomplishment of His will and for the manifestation of His glory. He has but to will in order to do everything Repeatedly throughout the book this theme recurs to ensure that the distinction is clear. And never is it implied that Mary ever commands God to do anything....asks yes, tells, no. The overall theme that I have taken from his work has been that, the most perfect way to approach the divine Christ, is through His mother by mimicing her humility. I have also not seen anything stated that God only gives grace through the supplication of Mary.

Lastly, while papal infallibililty, is a required belief of the RCC, I do not think anyone is required to adhere to any particular teaching regarding Mary outside of the Virgin Birth, the Immaculate Conception, and possibly the Assumption. So I think it's likely you would find many who would agree with the teachings of St De Montfort, and many who do not.

[SumTinWong]

The example you used of Mary being Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and Spouse of the Holy Spirit, is used by St Louis De Montfort, but if you have read his work you will see that he goes through great pains to make certain the reader (or listener) understands that Mary is to be put on the same level as Christ, the Father or the Holy Spirit. In fact he begins one of his writings by stating
You meant is NOT correct?

[ChessCastle]

You meant is NOT correct?


Yes, I definitely meant not..thanks for pointing that out. I'll go and edit.

[Simon_Templar]

CC,

Partially what I'm getting at is that saying "I don't elevate Mary to divinity" eventually ceases to have meaning, no matter how often you say it, when you do infact give divine attributes to her.

To say that God does whatever Mary asks, because she asks according to his will, is largely pointless. First because scripture says that God does whatever any of us ask, if we ask according to his will. Secondly, there is no point in taking your petition to Mary, if she only asks according to the will of the Father, and never seeks to bend his will to hers, because if what you petition to her is not according to the Father's will, she will not ask Him for it, and if it is according to his will, he would do it wether Mary asked or even only if you asked.

So the argument that we must petition God through Mary, or that it is advantageous to do so, either is nonsensical, OR it does include implications that Mary bends the will of God by her requests, or that we can only approach God through Mary, as in he will grant to her what he will not grant to us.

As for the argument that we can only come to Christ or only recieve grace from God through Mary.. it was presented by MarkH in the thread I was watching over in OBOB. Some of the posters disagreed with him, other supported him. He, as one would expect, insisted that he was posting the official teaching of the church.

[SumTinWong]

Simon. For the reasons you layed out here, that is why I do not ask prayers from saints who have passed on. I may ask you but that is only because I can get an answer back from you ;)

[ChessCastle]

CC,

Partially what I'm getting at is that saying "I don't elevate Mary to divinity" eventually ceases to have meaning, no matter how often you say it, when you do infact give divine attributes to her.


Are you using the word 'you' meaning people in general or are you referring to me specifically? If you are saying that I have given Mary divine attributes, I'd like to know which ones you're speaking of.


To say that God does whatever Mary asks, because she asks according to his will, is largely pointless. First because scripture says that God does whatever any of us ask, if we ask according to his will. Secondly, there is no point in taking your petition to Mary, if she only asks according to the will of the Father, and never seeks to bend his will to hers, because if what you petition to her is not according to the Father's will, she will not ask Him for it, and if it is according to his will, he would do it wether Mary asked or even only if you asked. These are very valid points, but let's look at what else the bible says regarding our petitions to God.


James, chapter 1

5: If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him.
6: But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
7: For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man,
8: unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord.


From this we can see that there is at least one stipulation on our petitioning of God, and that is that there be absolutely no doubting. In my opinion this is much harder than it sounds, but the point here is that the bible doesn't simply tell us we will get what we ask for and leave it at that, but rather that the nature of our petition is also very important.

So the argument that we must petition God through Mary, or that it is advantageous to do so, either is nonsensical, OR it does include implications that Mary bends the will of God by her requests, or that we can only approach God through Mary, as in he will grant to her what he will not grant to us.
Now having established that the nature of our petition is very important, I would say it is not nonsensical to seek the intercession of Mary, or other saint for that matter. Of course I am speaking for myself here, I personally feel much more comfortable seeking the assistance of intercession with my prayers, because I am a sinful creature. If one believes in any way shape or form in intercessory prayer, how can one not seek the prayers of the blessed Virgin Mother?

I realise I may not be typical of the Anglicans on this board, but when did intercessory prayer become such a debated thing? For example on the sundays that I serve at the altar, all servers, the choir, and our priest all recite the following:

I Confess / The Confiteor

I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the Saints, that I have sinned exceedingly, in thought, word, and deed, through my fault [strike breast], through my fault [strike breast], through my most grievous fault [strike breast].

Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the Saints to pray to the Lord our God for me. Amen.This is just a part of the entire prayer but it clearly seeks the intercession of saints beginning with Mary, is this not a common practice?

[Simon_Templar]

Are you using the word 'you' meaning people in general or are you referring to me specifically? If you are saying that I have given Mary divine attributes, I'd like to know which ones you're speaking of.


I was using it in the general sense referring to the Catholic folks who put forth these teachings. Not referring to you :)

[holyorders]

Ironic how a whole thread on what Catholics believe about Mary can be based on false speculation.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM



Don't speculate things, look them up. Athough you'll find things in that that you will find some way to hate us for. I'd rather you hate us for the truth instead of predjudical imagination though. :)

[holyorders]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

Here I even got to the part about Mary. No mention of her being elevated as a 'god' whatsoever.



The writings of saints, theologians, and even popes have no real measure as to the standard or basic principles of the Faith.


And for the record, Popes are only infallible:

1]On issues of faith and morals (Marian devotion is not a requirement nor a matter of faith/morals and that is official)

2]The Pope has to institute his infallibilty. Like "By the chair of Peter" and so on and so forth.

3] The most debated dogmas about Mary are 1. The Immaculate Conception (she was born w/o sin), Theotokos (she is the mother of God), Ascention into Heaven (beamed up like Elijah), and Perpetual Virginity.




Ok......probably the last time I'll post here.

[Simon_Templar]

Ironic how a whole thread on what Catholics believe about Mary can be based on false speculation.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM



Don't speculate things, look them up. Athough you'll find things in that that you will find some way to hate us for. I'd rather you hate us for the truth instead of predjudical imagination though. :)
thanks for the input :)

I don't hate catholics. Frankly I want to see greater unity between protestants and Catholics, which is why I find issues like this to be so frustrating.

However, if you take a look in the "is mary required for salvation" thread in the OBOB Catholic forum here, you'll see that I'm not just making this stuff up or imagining it. A significant portion of the Catholics there defend this position.
They would not agree that they ascribe divinity to Mary, but in my opinion that is what these teachings do. The teachings themselves I've been given by Catholics.

[SumTinWong]

Ironic how a whole thread on what Catholics believe about Mary can be based on false speculation.

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM



:) Don't speculate things, look them up. Athough you'll find things in that that you will find some way to hate us for. I'd rather you hate us for the truth instead of predjudical imagination though.
Thanks for this but we already discussed this and Simon has expressed why he came to the conclusion that he did. Nobody has spoken in hate in this thread.

[Tetzel]

Sometimes I don't quite get Catholic reasoning. They seem to be saying, "God does what Mary says, because Mary would only ask those things that He would do anyway." If that's the case, why ask her to ask the Father for anything? Why not just pray for His will to be done. Which is what we should be doing anyway, IMHO.



Better yet, why pray for anything at all, isn't that just demonstrating that you don't trust God?

[No Swansong]

Because He directed us to.

[masuwerte]

Respectfully, prayer does not always mean asking for something:

www.christianforums.com/t673925&page=2 (http://www.christianforums.com/t673925&page=2)

See #14 above.

[dv81]

This is what we say to Mary, the exact words... if you find one part that isn't biblical or something God might not like, then E-mail me because I would love to here it:

"Hail Mary,
Full of grace, the lord is with you
Blessed art thow amoungst woman and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

If we WORSHIP her then WHY do we ask her to PRAY FOR US? Really, people!

I'm sick of protestants being told such lies by pastors attacking our church, if you have a problem with Mary, tell me and I'll sort it out :thumbsup:

P.S. you have to E-mail cuz i prob wont check this particular forum

[No Swansong]

I would like to take this opportunity to remind our non STR bretheren that they are welcome to post fellowship posts and make inquiry into Anglican/Old Catholic thought, teaching, and practice. However according to CF rules you may not debate.

For STR members, I want to thank you for keeping this thread civil and would like to voice my hope that it stays that way.