Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner- Wrong? [Archive]

View Full Version : Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner- Wrong?

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 06:40 AM

Savate

7th November 2006, 07:17 AM

I really enjoyed reading that and agree the semantics can be truly "anti-Christian" or not very Christ-like.

However, I don't know if we could say that the writings of the prophets Amos or Isaiah showed either God (or asked us) to be blind to sin and sinful conduct around us. It seems judgement is left to God, but we must be aware of things that lead us away from God's laws and expectations without "judging" those around us.

What do you think...?

Mrs12bfishin

7th November 2006, 09:36 AM

You have made a very good point. We are not supposed to judge others and their faults. We are supposed to love others as Christ does. However, I don't believe this saying came as a way to disguise hate though. We are supposed to hate sin, not just other's but our own. I don't believe we can be totally blinded to sin because it is all around us, nor should we act as if it weren't there (like we were blind to it.) We are not to judge others because of it though.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 10:30 AM

Thanks for the two answers ^_^

Well when it comes to our own sin, definitely be aware of it. Never blind to it.

But to others, I think we should act as if we are blind to it, because it's none of our business. If God makes it our business, we can use his eyes to see their sin, and thus do God's Will in the way that he wants (For example, He wants you to confront someone about their sin. But God basically tells you about their sin, so you don't see it with your eyes, but with God's.)

I agree with you two, but stand very strongly to my point. And I honestly believe that Christians use that "hate the sin, love the sinner" to disguise their hate for the sinner. Not all, but some do it. Perhaps we should just use no slogan at all?

"Hate our own sin, pay no attention to other's sin because it's not our business, and to love the sinner."

lol, not as catchy of a slogan :P

Also, I'm sure being as if blind to the sin of others wouldn't always apply. Say to close intimates that are comfortable with you and wouldn't get offended, but take you seriously, if you talk about their sin.

In my understanding of God, He is both blind to our sin and not blind. He knows everything, so He knows of our sin, but at the same time He blots out our sin and forgets it.

And if God forgets it, does that mean He is blind to it, or that it doesn't even exist anymore? Either way, it is as if we don't sin, because God forgets our sin.

" For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us. "

Kindof like that one song,
"What Sin, What sin? It's as far away as the east is, from the west."

That's what I mean by "as if blind to sin." :D

I completely agree though, we must be aware of sin, but not judge others. Perhaps instead of "hate sin" be aware of sin but forgive and forget it. "Love the sinner, aware of the forgiven and forgotten sin."

I think they should just change it to this:

"Love the sinner." That way no one can ever justify hate in any way. Hate is a strong word. In my opinion instead of "Hate the sin, love the sinner." it should be

"Forgive the sin, love the sinner."

In essence, I think that portrays Christianity more, because the word "hate" honestly should be as far away from Christianity as possible. 'Hate' just being in the same sentence is bad enough.

What do you think? I'm sure I'm wrong somehow, because you're right, God isn't blind to sin, nor are we. But I'm at a loss for words and don't know how else to describe it.

SteelDisciple

7th November 2006, 11:19 AM

People say that the right thing is to "Hate the sin, but Love the sinner." I think, that although this is correct, it is the wrong way to be a Christian. Yea, we are to hate sin. Yea, we are to love the sinner. BUT, I think that this view of "hate sin, love sinner" is in fact creating hate for the sinner. In my opinion, this view is wrong.

From what I know about Love, God's Love towards us, and Love Love Love, it's this: Love blinds. I think to truly love others, with God's Love, and to see them the way God sees us, is to be SO full of Love that we're blinded.

That the quote, "Hate the sin, Love the Sinner." is a wrong life-view, and the more correct version is this:

"Love the Sinner, be blind to the sin."

Other's sin is none of our business, it's God. Why should we "hate the sin" when it only portrays a hateful negativity to the sinner? But we are not to judge those outside of the church. That's in scripture. If we don't judge those outside of the church, and we love them so much, are we not completely blind to sin?

God loves me so much that it is as if He is blind to my sin. He looks down at me and sees His wonderful child, covered in Jesus's Blood, blinded by my sin that is underneath the Blood. From what I know personally of God, He is blinded by His Love. God would normally see my sin, but because I am covered in Jesus's Blood, He doesn't see my sin, He can't, He only sees the Blood of Jesus covering me.

And for you "semantics" people who have to have EVERY word perfect, here's a rephrased statement of what I see as the correct view:

"Love the sinner, be as if blind to the sin."

It's not a Christian's place to judge others, but in "hate the sin" I see nothing but Christians judging and hating others. This view of "Hate the Sin" doesn't produce the fruit of "Love the Sinner." If we truly loved the sinner, we'd be as if blinded to their sin.

Good Lord people...where do you come up with this. No wonder Christianity is royally screwed up in this era...people making up their own ideas!

God HATES sin. That's a fact that is repeated through out the bible.

GOD HATES SIN
GOD HATES SIN
GOD HATES SIN
But loves the person.

I can't make it any clearer....some fundie will problem come in and complicate the issue like usual.sigh

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 11:26 AM

Good Lord people...where do you come up with this. No wonder Christianity is royally screwed up in this era...people making up their own ideas!

God HATES sin. That's a fact that is repeated through out the bible.

GOD HATES SIN
GOD HATES SIN
GOD HATES SIN
But loves the person.

I can't make it any clearer....some fundie will problem come in and complicate the issue like usual.sigh
I never said God doesn't hate sin. You are reading what I am saying, but creating your own understanding.... or did you even read what I said?

lilymarie

7th November 2006, 11:47 AM

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 01:02 PM

Thanks.

I don't mean to proclaim that every word I say, and in the EXACT way I say it, is to be perfect. My words aren't the Bible. :P

What I am trying to get across though is that the saying is overused and people use it to justify hate and a lack of love. That we should have a motto of "Forgive the sin, love the sinner" instead.

And as long as you get my point, I don't care if you disagree with how I say it. How I say it doesn't matter to me, it's just the message I get across that matters.

And according to my logic, and the meaning and heart of my message, everyone will preach the gospel just like should be. Just because it make appear that way because you read and understand my meaning differently doesn't mean I'm saying Paul preached the gospel wrong. In my view, it would have still been preached and reach our ears. What I'm saying is that God is both blind and not blind to our sin. And us as well. There is no logic in me that says the gospel wouldn't have been reached.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 01:06 PM

Are you sure that we cannot forgive sins and that only God can?

Jesus did say to his disciples:

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Unless I'm mistaken, Jesus can forgive others sin by allowing us to forgive others sin. So to say only Jesus can forgive sin is right, but it is also wrong. It's right because only He can, but it's wrong because He can THROUGH us, so we can too. The correct would be "Only Jesus can forgive sins AND those whom he gives his power to."

Reformationist

7th November 2006, 02:46 PM

Other's sin is none of our business, it's God.

Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.

Tell me Ronny, if other's sins are none of our business, how can we help them with their burden when they are caught up in sin?

If you simply mean that we should never take personal offense because we are affected by the sins of another, knowing that all sin is against God only, I would agree. David, because of his lust for Bethsheeba, had her husband, Uriah, killed and later, in repentence said to God, "Against You, You only, have I sinned and done what is evil in Your sight."

It's not a Christian's place to judge others

More specifically, it is not our place to judge another's worthiness of salvation. We are commanded to judge other's actions and behavior.

Are you sure that we cannot forgive sins and that only God can?

We are commanded to "forgive" in the sense that we are to not hold a person's sins against them, even if we are affected by those sins. "Forgiveness" in the sense of atonement is the exclusive purview of the Almighty.

God bless

MarkEvan

7th November 2006, 03:23 PM

Hmmm, I completely agree with reformationist on this issue.

From what I know about Love, God's Love towards us, and Love Love Love, it's this: Love blinds. I think to truly love others, with God's Love, and to see them the way God sees us, is to be SO full of Love that we're blinded.

That the quote, "Hate the sin, Love the Sinner." is a wrong life-view, and the more correct version is this:

"Love the Sinner, be blind to the sin."

We are told all through the scriptures that it is our responsibility to warn the wicked of the comming judgement, to tell them of their wicked ways, we are even to tell those chriistians who fall into sin, the consequences of their sin.
Reformationist has already quoted Galations 6, so I will go with 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul criticeses the corinthians for allowing a fault amongst themselves to go before an unbelievers court, he tells them that they should judge their own affairs within the church, saying that they are to judge angels.
Also God says to Ezekiel that if he does not warn the wicked of their wicked ways then God will require their blood at his hands, Paul then reiterates this principle in acts when he tells the galations that he is not guilty of the blood of any of them because for three years he did not cease night and day to warn them with tears.

God loves me so much that it is as if He is blind to my sin. He looks down at me and sees His wonderful child, covered in Jesus's Blood, blinded by my sin that is underneath the Blood. From what I know personally of God, He is blinded by His Love. God would normally see my sin, but because I am covered in Jesus's Blood, He doesn't see my sin, He can't, He only sees the Blood of Jesus covering me.

God is not blind to the sin you or I commit, in fact He will punish us for commiting sin, as would any father who saw their son doing anything that he knew to be harmful to the chid even were the child to think otherwise.

Mark :)

linssue55

7th November 2006, 03:38 PM

iThis view of "Hate the Sin" doesn't produce the fruit of "Love the Sinner." If we truly loved the sinner, we'd be as if blinded to their sin.

God say's LOVE the sinner and not the sin.....is so TRUE. It is very easy to love the sinner (ALL have sinned) and to hate the sin. These are 2 different, seperate things here, you are saying that they cannot be split. The way you do it is through "AGAPE" love. The Lord gave this to us KNOWING we wouild have difficulty in "Loving your enemy." Here's how.

Agape Love

Agape love takes on the attitude of, "Live and let live." It does not stick its nose in your neighbors business. It is always willing to be helpful. Yet, if you know your neighbor is running a crack house? Do you send him free meals? Or, do you report him to the police? Let him find Jesus in jail. In the mean time he is ruining the lives of many others.

Agape love does not break the law in order to keep loving your neighbor. Agape love does not approve of lawlessness. Yet, agape love does not gossip about his neighbor if his neighbor is facing personal problems. There is a fine balance that agape love gives us the grace to deal with a fallen world.

Bishop Trench did an excellent work on "Agape." I have also seen other scholars works on this subject, and have heard it taught numerous times. One thing about Agape love, that is different from Phileo love, is that agape has a quality of being able to be impersonal. That the one possessing agape love is doing so because he "possess love." Not because they are responding to another because the other is the object of their love. That would be phileo.

Agape makes one a "loving person." A relaxed person with others. It gives you a wish to treat all with respect and integrity. Agape love is what you become, by grace, made of. It does not depend on the other to meet your standard of approval. Agape has yourself as the source of love. Phileo has the other as the object of your love. God is love. He does not love because we exist. God would be love even if he created nothing to love.

Phileo love is when another meets a personal requirement for our approval and we feel attached to this person. They are an object of our love. That is why husbands are not commanded to phileo their wives, but to have agape. Agape love is the love that remains impersonal as one works out one's differences and finds solutions. Wives are never commanded to agape their husbands. They are told to be respectful. To show respect. (look it up!)

Phileo is what a honeymoon is for... along with another type of love which the Greek is called eros. Phileo is what one has when you find a true friend. David and Jonathan had phileo love. Agape is a problem solver. Agape is for all we come in contact with. Phileo can become a problem causer if agape is not also present! Phileo is only for a few close loved ones. We are not commanded to phileo the brethren.

Agape can be used to express a form of love that can be impersonal. When you have integrity and righteousness functioning in your soul, you offer love to all you come in contact with. You offer love, because you possess love. We are not to phileo our enemies. That would be a personal love of approval and full acceptance. Agape love is when you have inner peace and truth in your possession. People may mistreat you, but you do not return hate in your expression to them. You can remain relaxed and still possess within yourself peace. That is what agape produces when the Christian is mature in Christ.

Agape love does not react to negativity. Agape love responds in truth to negativity. Agape love does not approve of evil. It simply does not become hateful and petty in the face of evil by becoming reactionary. One mantains ones sense of inner love in the face of what is not love when one is walking in agape love. That does not mean you will not defend yourself if attacked. It means that you avoid conflict unless you are attacked and it is the only means left as an option.

Agape love has several dimensions to it. What I just described is how agape love is to apply to all we come in contact with. All who we do not have a special personal sense of approval for (phileo love). Phileo love is personal. That is when you are strongly drawn to a person and find a sense of approval and appreciation for that person because they are what you personally like. Agape can be impersonal. We do not have to approve of what they are like in order to maintain our love. God gave us agape love so that we can all learn to maintain our peace within a fallen world. Agape is what allows for all different kinds of believers to get along with each other.

Zecryphon

7th November 2006, 09:22 PM

"But to others, I think we should act as if we are blind to it, because it's none of our business."

Really? So if we see a brother or sister who is mired in sin we should just ignore it and turn a blind eye to it? Is that what Paul did with the church in Corinth? If we ignore the sins of our brothers and sisters in the faith, where does that leave church discipline?

"If God makes it our business, we can use his eyes to see their sin, and thus do God's Will"

To do God's will, we would have to know the mind of God inside and out. Do you claim to know the mind of God that well? Do you have information available to you other than what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures?

"in the way that he wants (For example, He wants you to confront someone about their sin. But God basically tells you about their sin, so you don't see it with your eyes, but with God's.)"

I don't think we are capable of seeing things as God sees things. God is perfect, we are not. Whatever we see will be tainted with bias and seen through a sinful lens.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 09:37 PM

More specifically, it is not our place to judge another's worthiness of salvation. We are commanded to judge other's actions and behavior.

The Bible says that it's only our job to judge those inside the church. NOT those outside the church.

1 Corinthians 5:12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

None of your business to judge those outside the church. That's scripture.

We are commanded to "forgive" in the sense that we are to not hold a person's sins against them, even if we are affected by those sins. "Forgiveness" in the sense of atonement is the exclusive purview of the Almighty.

Do you have biblical proof for this? Or do you hold a non-literal view of the Bible? Do you view genesis and revelation as non-literal? If Jesus says "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven" why does that not mean what it says it means? If Jesus ever says "his sins are forgiven" does that mean they actually aren't forgiven?

Do you have scripture to back yourself up, or is that just YOUR interpretation of GOD's Bible.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 09:40 PM

in fact He will punish us for commiting sin

ERR: WRONG. God doesn't punish sin. ESPECIALLY after Jesus was punished for our sins. Are you saying that although Jesus took the punishment for our sins, it wasn't good enough? God has to punish us for our sins because Jesus wasn't punished enough? I'm under the blood. I'm not going to be punished for my sins because God punished Jesus instead.

Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

God doesn't punish sin. Jesus was punished once for all time.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 09:51 PM

To do God's will, we would have to know the mind of God inside and out.

1 Corinthians 2:16
"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Do you claim to know the mind of God that well?
Absolutely. I claim, and do, know the Holy Spirit, who is the mind of God. I know the Holy Spirit very well. I speak to Him, hang out with Him, Love Him, have intimate times with Him, He talks to me, He sits beside me, He is within, beside, above, below, diagnal, and all around me. I claim and do know the Holy Spirit that well. Don't you? The Holy Spirit is a better friend to me than ANY human has ever been, and I am closer to Him than I am to ANY human being. God is my true and only close best friend. And I know Him, He's my intimate Lover. My wife, my beloved. My Father, My Mother, My Brother, My Sister, My Lover, He is My Wife, My Love, MINE.

Do you have information available to you other than what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures?
Absolutely, my God is a Living God and speaks Words of all kind, through scripture and without scripture. He is ALIVE, a real person. A LIVING PERSON. He talks, He lives, He acts, He breathes, He is alive within me, Living beside me, in my house with me. I have SO much more than just God's Written Word. I have God Himself. God's Throneroom, God's Voice, God's Spoken Word, God's Unspoken Word, God's Word, God's Will, God's Wisdom, God's Heart, God Himself. I have God, and because of that I have all that which God is and has. Everything He has is mine, because He gives it to me. I am an heir to all that God has to offer thanks to Christ my Heavenly Brother, my Savior and King.

I don't think we are capable of seeing things as God sees things. God is perfect, we are not. Whatever we see will be tainted with bias and seen through a sinful lens.

We are fully capable, because we have the Holy Spirit.
Not having a righteousness of my own, but having a righteousness of God.

1 Corinthians 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

John 14:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Perhaps you want to know the Holy Spirit more? The Holy Spirit is SUCH a wonderful and awesome friend. So intimate, so loving, so caring, so amazing. To put His awesomeness in words is as if an insult to Him, because He is that much greater than words could ever portray. The Holy Spirit, He is amazing, Great, Fantastic, Holy, Wise, AMAZING AMAZING AMAZING, awesome awesome awesome awesome. My best and only true friend!!!!

UBERROGO

7th November 2006, 09:55 PM

A person shows themselves forth through thier actions.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 10:01 PM

Agape love does not break the law in order to keep loving your neighbor.

No no no, Agape love is all about LOVE. God's Love is above any human law ever made. Agape love puts love about the law. If you have to break the law to love someone, Agape love breaks the law.
Love > Law

And regardless of how amazing and perfect true Agape love is, the point I'm making is people are saying "Hate the sin, phileo the sinner." when they should just be saying "Agape the sinner."

Why even have the hate the sin part? In my opinion it's better just to say "Love the Sinner." and that's it. It's none of our business to judge those outside the church, or the "sinner" in this case. As if "the Sinner" is only unchristian people. People forget christians sin just like non-christians.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 10:03 PM

If anything, it should be "Hate the sin, love the human."

Why even degrade people as if they are sinners but you are not? Disgusting. There is nothing good about that sentence: "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Nothing good at all. Disgusting.

MarkEvan

8th November 2006, 04:54 AM

ERR: WRONG. God doesn't punish sin. ESPECIALLY after Jesus was punished for our sins. Are you saying that although Jesus took the punishment for our sins, it wasn't good enough? God has to punish us for our sins because Jesus wasn't punished enough? I'm under the blood. I'm not going to be punished for my sins because God punished Jesus instead.

Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

God doesn't punish sin. Jesus was punished once for all time.

Hi Ronny, have you purposfully not understood romans 3? He left the sins commited before hand unpunished, Jesus took the punishment for our sins, but how can that sacrifice be effective for us if we do not repent, those who do not repent can not be christians as repentance is a vital part of being born again.
Once we are born again however it is a different story, Hebrews 6 and 10 clearly talk of God`s punishment on those who continue in sin, thesalonians talks of how God sends a powerful delusion on those who refuse to love the truth and so be saved. We are told that we can greive the Spirit, how can we do this if it is not by sin?

In reality God chastises those whom He loves as hebrews 12 says, there is nowhere that says God turns a blind eye to sin.

Mark

Zecryphon

8th November 2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:
To do God's will, we would have to know the mind of God inside and out.
1 Corinthians 2:16
"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

<Quote:
Do you claim to know the mind of God that well?>

"Absolutely."

That statement takes guts.

"I claim, and do, know the Holy Spirit, who is the mind of God. I know the Holy Spirit very well. I speak to Him, hang out with Him, Love Him, have intimate times with Him, He talks to me, He sits beside me, He is within, beside, above, below, diagnal, and all around me. I claim and do know the Holy Spirit that well. Don't you?"

Let's stay on topic here. The topic is not how well I know or do not know the Holy Spirit but how well you do or claim to. It's interesting you assign the Holy Spirit a gender. I know the bible does this as well, I just always thought of the Holy Spirit as a spirit and being free from things like a physical body and gender.

"The Holy Spirit is a better friend to me than ANY human has ever been, and I am closer to Him than I am to ANY human being. God is my true and only close best friend. And I know Him, He's my intimate Lover. My wife, my beloved. My Father, My Mother, My Brother, My Sister, My Lover, He is My Wife, My Love, MINE."

I find it rather disturbing that you claim to own God in this way. God owns you. You were bought at a price. You have constantly referred to Him as a possession. But hey, this is your relationship to God, I'm not going to tell you how to conduct it.

<Quote:
Do you have information available to you other than what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures?>

"Absolutely, my God is a Living God and speaks Words of all kind, through scripture and without scripture."

What does God sound like? Or does He speak to your heart rather than to your ears?

"He is ALIVE, a real person. A LIVING PERSON."

Actually, He is God and not confined to a physical body. He is everywhere at once.

"He talks, He lives, He acts, He breathes, He is alive within me, Living beside me, in my house with me. I have SO much more than just God's Written Word. I have God Himself. God's Throneroom, God's Voice, God's Spoken Word, God's Unspoken Word, God's Word, God's Will, God's Wisdom, God's Heart, God Himself. I have God, and because of that I have all that which God is and has."

So again, you own God. Got it. If you have everything God has, wouldn't that make you equal with God? You've done an amazing job of exalting yourself. I remember the words of Jesus: "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Which one do you wish to be?

"Everything He has is mine, because He gives it to me. I am an heir to all that God has to offer thanks to Christ my Heavenly Brother, my Savior and King."

We're a little different here. I believe I have salvation and life eternal because of the price Jesus paid to obtain my salvation. I will one day have all that which God chooses to share with me. I am not proud enough to say that all God has is mine in this world now. No sir. God's treasures are perfect and holy and should not be subject to being dirtied by this fallen and wicked world.

<Quote:
I don't think we are capable of seeing things as God sees things. God is perfect, we are not. Whatever we see will be tainted with bias and seen through a sinful lens.>

"We are fully capable, because we have the Holy Spirit.
Not having a righteousness of my own, but having a righteousness of God."

We'll have to agree to disagree. As long as we have the dual nature of being both sinner and forgiven we will never see things in the same way as God.

1 Corinthians 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=2&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

"John 14:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

To whom was Jesus speaking in the above passage? To you? Or to the twelve apostles? From my reading it was to the twelve. The Holy Spirit did come and teach them things. Taught them how to cast out demons, heal the sick, preach the good news etc. Has the Holy Spirit taught you how to heal the sick and cast out demons?

"Perhaps you want to know the Holy Spirit more?"

Of course! You can never know the Holy Spirit too much, you can never know God too much and you can never know Jesus too much.

"The Holy Spirit is SUCH a wonderful and awesome friend."

No disagreement here.

"So intimate, so loving, so caring, so amazing."

Explain how it's intimate. I'll agree that the Spirit is loving and caring and amazing.

"To put His awesomeness in words is as if an insult to Him, because He is that much greater than words could ever portray."

Agreed, but you do make some great efforts at putting the Spirit's awesomeness into words.

"The Holy Spirit, He is amazing, Great, Fantastic, Holy, Wise, AMAZING AMAZING AMAZING, awesome awesome awesome awesome. My best and only true friend!!!!"

Indeed the Spirit is all these things. I'm glad you have found the Holy Spirit. You seem to have a real sense of purpose. Good for you. :)

Reformationist

8th November 2006, 01:32 PM

The Bible says that it's only our job to judge those inside the church. NOT those outside the church.

I didn't say anything about judging any person, inside or out of the church. I said, "We are commanded to judge other's actions and behavior." Now, if you think either that you are not commanded to judge the actions of all, or that you don't judge every single thing you perceive, you're deluded. The minute you are exposed to something you judge whether it is something you should entertain. If someone invites you to participate in an after work social gathering, you judge whether that would be prudent. If someone is doing something and you see it, you judge whether it is acceptable to be doing. Try not to bluster simply for the sake of acting like you know everything Ronny. We are most certainly supposed to judge. It's how we discern whether we should be engaging in various behavior.

Do you have biblical proof for this?

What is "sin" Ronny?

I offer you some advice that would help you if you wish to have productive discussions with people on public messageboards. Try to have an actual conversation on these topics. Rolling in, puffing out your chest and acting as if you're the only one that can cite the Bible to support your position is a waste of everyone's time, including your own. In answer to your question, yes, Scripture backs up everything I profess. Everything. And, yes, I can cite it when appropriate. However, getting into a verse volley is often anti-productive when two people who both claim to be believers can just as easily sit down and have a normal discussion.

God bless

SteelDisciple

8th November 2006, 02:45 PM

Psalm 97:10 says, "You who love the Lord, HATE EVIL! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked."

holo

8th November 2006, 04:10 PM

If people who say "hate the sin but love the sinner" took it really seriously, they'd be too busy hating their own sin to be pointing at other people's sin :)

God HATES sin. That's a fact that is repeated through out the bible.

GOD HATES SIN
GOD HATES SIN
GOD HATES SIN
But loves the person.That seems to be the common christian version of it, yes. Sin comes first. Morality, appearance, discipline, reputation.

The sad thing is that all this focus on sin accomplishes exactly what people claim they're trying to do. It's amazing that we who believe in the man who once and for all proved that we CAN'T make ourselves righteous, and who paid for it once and for all, still are proposing morality and discipline as the cure for sin.

The cure for sin is grace. But christians are so keen on the commandments, which are the power of sin. Therefore, the more legalistic they are, the more they preach against sin themselves, the more they struggle with it. If you consider yourself a sinner, and treat everybody around you like sinners, the only possible result is that you, well, sin.

holo

8th November 2006, 04:14 PM

Tell me Ronny, if other's sins are none of our business, how can we help them with their burden when they are caught up in sin?Well, discipline won't help. Trust in your flesh, and fleshly results are what you're gonna get.

Let's stop with the moralistic nonsense and deny ourselves instead. Let's not be conformed to this world and pretend that we defeat our flesh with more flesh.

And let's stop scaring our brothers from being honest because of the repercussions and judgments they know they'll get if they dare confess their weaknesses to us.

holo

8th November 2006, 04:16 PM

To do God's will, we would have to know the mind of God inside and out. Do you claim to know the mind of God that well? Do you have information available to you other than what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures?I know of at least one donkey who spoke God's will and a whore who did God's will by lying.

holo

8th November 2006, 04:18 PM

I don't think we are capable of seeing things as God sees things. God is perfect, we are not. Whatever we see will be tainted with bias and seen through a sinful lens.Actually, we are perfect too, having been born again by God. You are his by relation, by family ties. Of course, your human brain may still be tuned on to sin and open to unhealthy thoughts, but we have the option of taking every thought captive :) Let's practice that skill, and stop believing the lies of the accuser. It is not God who says you are a sinner.

Reformationist

8th November 2006, 04:20 PM

Well, discipline won't help. Trust in your flesh, and fleshly results are what you're gonna get.

Let's stop with the moralistic nonsense and deny ourselves instead. Let's not be conformed to this world and pretend that we defeat our flesh with more flesh.

And let's stop scaring our brothers from being honest because of the repercussions and judgments they know they'll get if they dare confess their weaknesses to us.

No clue how you thought this was a response to the portion of my post you quoted. All I asked was, how are we supposed to help our brethren if we don't concern ourselves with their sin? Shall we say, "Hey, I've got my own sins to worry about. You're on your own?" That may be your M.O. It's not mine. I know for a fact that those who are spiritual, i.e., those who respond in love, are helpful to those who are caught up in trespass and the only way they can help is if they are aware that there is a problem.

God bless

holo

8th November 2006, 04:23 PM

No clue how you thought this was a response to the portion of my post you quoted. All I asked was, how are we supposed to help our brethren if we don't concern ourselves with their sin? Shall we say, "Hey, I've got my own sins to worry about. You're on your own?" That may be your M.O. It's not mine. I know for a fact that those who are spiritual, i.e., those who respond in love, are helpful to those who are caught up in trespass and the only way they can help is if they are aware that there is a problem.You asked about how we're supposed to help people who struggle with sin. A common method seems to be adding morality and discipline. It wasn't meant as an attack on you.

Reformationist

8th November 2006, 05:12 PM

You asked about how we're supposed to help people who struggle with sin.

Okay, so anything but discipline is an acceptable alternative? There is a time and place for church discipline. Excommunication, for example, is definitely a legitimate form of church discipline, if appropriately employed.

It wasn't meant as an attack on you.

Thank you for the clarification. :) For the record, my question was on the rhetorical side, as being aware of the struggles of others is most certainly essential in helping them deal with those struggles. I'm not endorsing anything beyond helping others, whether that be through disciplining them or not.

God bless

RonnyRulz

8th November 2006, 06:57 PM

It's interesting you assign the Holy Spirit a gender. I just always thought of the Holy Spirit as a spirit and being free from things like a physical body and gender.

I'm pretty sure all people assign God the gender of "He", mainly because almost everytime He is referred to "He." And the Holy Spirit is no different, He is fully God, Fully a Person, Fully a Person with a Personality.

I am friends with the Holy Spirit, and I like to refer to Him as He, because He is a real Person to me. I'm not saying He isn't like that to you at all, EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, and your unique self might always refer to Him as "Holy Spirit" and never in "He,She,It,Him,Her,etc." That's fine, everyone's different and it doesn't really matter, as long as you know the Holy Spirit intimately. Uniqueness is a great quality in God's relationship with us.

I find it rather disturbing that you claim to own God in this way.

You underestimate my closeness with Him and our Love.
"John 6:56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him."

It works both ways. God is in me, and I am in God. God is my friend, I am God's friend. God is my husband, I am his wife. God is my wife, I am his husband. God is my mother, my father, I am his son.

I own God fully as He owns me. Why? Because we are One. Connected. Two intimate lovers together own each other. That's how intimate, close, loving, selfless, giving, we are. God is mine, truly as I am God's. He gives himself fully to me, I give myself fully to him. It is a shame that you find the disturbing. I pray you grow to know this closeness of being God's and God being yours.
Everything that is mine, is His. Everything that is His, is mine. We share, because we are lovers.

You have constantly referred to Him as a possession.

God's Heart is my greatest possession. He gave it to me before I was even born. He gave it to me, and that makes it mine! It's a gift, and the most wonderful blessed grand gift ever. My gift!

But hey, this is your relationship to God, I'm not going to tell you how to conduct it.

lol thanks, but you apparently already did :-P lol, thanks though

What does God sound like? Or does He speak to your heart rather than to your ears?

God sounds like a billion different things. Sometimes His voice sounds like it says in Revelation 1:15
"and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters."

Sometimes it's like what I always imagined Old Testament style to be like, with the thunderous echoe of pure Authority and Power. Like when He said to me, really loud, not like thunder, but clear and traquil, but as if a silent thunder, with Authority that He Is The God of All, The Great Power, The Ancient of Days, almost as if angry, "I AM NOT A LIAR!"

He speaks to every one of my senses and more. Even sometimes the sense of smell! Only twice though. I always wanted to meet someone that spoke to God through smell a whole bunch, like as a primary means, but no luck so far, LOL. I mean, we have a bunch of different senses for a reason

Sometimes through the spirit, the soul, the mind, the body, through whatever He wants. Sometimes through the eyes, visions, dreams, smells, remembrances, the heart, the ears, etc. etc. It's never always the same way, He is the God who can do a lot of stuff, lol.

Although I don't know if I've ever tasted God before. That's one sense that I haven't felt yet. Smell yea, Sight yea, Feel yea, Hear yea, but taste? :( not yet, unless I'm forgetting.

Actually, He is God and not confined to a physical body. He is everywhere at once.

True, and it is perplexing. He is everywhere, but He also "comes and goes." Like, I don't understand it, but if I were to explain it, I'd say something like... He has a bunch of difference Presences. Like, the God that's always there, The Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit the PERSON, Jesus Himself, The Spirit of Jesus, Father, The Ancient of Days, The Gentle Lover, The Quiet Voice, etc. etc.

It is very true, God is everywhere, always there, and never leaves. But at the same time He might always be there by His "Always Presence" but also come into the room, "Jesus Himself" and walk down the aisle, then walk out of the room. So God is everywhere, but also God is only there at the place as He walks through then is no longer there. That's the best way to explain it. Because the Holy Spirit is always with me, but sometimes He is with me, not just with me, but with me. There's a big difference too. Part of it might be MY spiritual senses and I just sense Him there, or it might be that He comes and goes, as well as always stays and never leaves. All I know is our God is a vast and big God.

If you have everything God has, wouldn't that make you equal with God?

LOL, no way. Not even close. I have everything God has because He gives it to me, and I'm not righteous, but He gives me His righteousness. Equality with God is not something to be grasped.

Romans 8:16-17
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

- 1 Corinthians 4:7 - Phillipians 3:9 -
What do you have that you did not receive?
And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law,
but the righteousness that comes from God.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped

You've done an amazing job of exalting yourself.

Oh? Then let me do an amazing job of humbling myself. I am prideful, sinful, black-hearted, unloving, selfish, rude, inconsiderate, arrogant, self-righteous, a heathen, a wicked human being, deserving of death, not deserving of love, and just all around horrible leader and christian. I know what I am, but I also know what else I am: A Blood-Bought redeemed wonderful Child of God. A son of God. A brother of Christ. A servant of the Great King. A Prince of the Universe. A disciple of God, a powerful Warrior, a conquerer, MORE than just a conquerer, righteous by His Blood, cleansed, redeemed, forgiven, and being worked on by the Holy Spirit. Being molded by the Potter. Carved by the Jeweler, and I am loved, Jesus thinks I'm amazing, He loves me, He thinks I'm great, He points out all the awesome qualities He gave me, and continues to give me more, He compliments me, He makes me feel good, I am worthy because He makes me worthy, I am strong because He makes me strong, I am great because He makes me great, Because He is Great.

I know what I am, and I know what I'm not. I have all that God has because He gives it to me, but I'm not God, I'm a sinner. Just a heathen who really really loves Jesus!

I remember the words of Jesus: "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Which one do you wish to be?

Like all human beings, I want to be the humble one. But like all human beings, I'm the exalted one. Who is he that is truly humble? God will humble all men, for all men are prideful. You don't have to quote those words to me, I know God humbles me constantly, and I pray constantly, "Please, I am proud, humble me." I pray, nearly every day, for God to humble me because I know I am proud. Do you do the same? Don't judge me as exalted whom God will humble if you are not willing to also be judged. Do you not exalt yourself? Are you not also filled with pride? Will God not also humble you?

We're a little different here. I believe I have salvation and life eternal because of the price Jesus paid to obtain my salvation. I will one day have all that which God chooses to share with me. I am not proud enough to say that all God has is mine in this world now. No sir. God's treasures are perfect and holy and should not be subject to being dirtied by this fallen and wicked world.

The moment you are saved under the Blood, all that He has is more. You already have everything! You already have all that which God chooses to share with you, because he shares ALL with you! You have it all, you just have to take it!!! By not taking what God has given you the moment you were saved (everything) you are insulting God. He gives you everything, and you take so little? Take big! Ask big! Receive big! God gives big. To ask for little is hurtful to God because He wants you to have big.

He gave you Jesus before you were saved. Now you took Jesus and have Him. That's God's best. That's the greatest gift God can give. If God gave you Jesus now, Jesus's Blood is yours, will He not also gladly give you all that is lesser? If He gives you the greatest gift He could possibly give: His Own Life: His Blood, how much more will He give you everything else, because everything else is insignificant compared to God's Blood.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

You have a BIG inheritance right now as you speak. It's up to you to take it. You don't have to wait until after you die, it is all yours now.

As long as we have the dual nature of being both sinner and forgiven we will never see things in the same way as God.

You underestimate the Power of God.

Mark 10:27
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

If God can take me and you, sinners, and make us righteous by His Blood, He can surely and easily give us the power to see as He sees, feel as He feels, and love as He loves.

To whom was Jesus speaking in the above passage? To you? Or to the twelve apostles?

To me. He gave me the Holy Spirit, I can testify to that. He endued me with Power from on High. The Holy Spirit will counsel me concerning ALL THINGS. The Holy Spirit has been given to ME. The same Holy Spirit that apostles had, the same Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead, is within me. My friend. My teacher. My comforter. My lover. My best friend.

Of course! You can never know the Holy Spirit too much, you can never know God too much and you can never know Jesus too much.

HURRAY! Agreed!

Has the Holy Spirit taught you how to heal the sick and cast out demons?

Yep, and He still is teaching me so much more! Most Christians can cast out demons, they're the easy thing to beat, lol. I mean, they cower at the very name of Jesus. I've had Satan come into my room straight looking at me in my face, suffocating me, but I learned through a 5 day battle, that all I need to do is say the name of Jesus and Satan is powerless. Demons suck, Jesus is super tough! lol

Explain how it's intimate. I'll agree that the Spirit is loving and caring and amazing.

Mmmm, the intimacy of the Holy Spirit. Explain it? That's hard, but I'll sure as heck try! Let's see... I kiss the Holy Spirit, and I hug Him, and hold Him, I snuggle with Him, I sleep with Him (in a bed, you know, fall asleep in each others arms kind of thing) and have a Spiritual Intimacy with Him. The body has intimacy which deals with sexual organs, but the spirit doesn't have sexual organs from what I know, lol. But I'd definitely say it's like spiritual sex! Nothing to do with the body, flesh, or sexual organs, but everything to do with the connection, the closeness, the becoming one, the part where two persons are close together and their hearts pound against each other. The stuff husband and wife feel if you EXCLUDE the body, flesh, sex, etc. The spiritual-connection. The closeness. The Love.

If that doesn't help very much, Webster can perhaps?
This is the best example of what I am talking about:

Main Entry: 2in·ti·mate http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?intima07.wav=intimate'))
Pronunciation: 'in-t&-m&t
Function: adjective
1 a : INTRINSIC, ESSENTIAL b : belonging to or characterizing one's deepest nature
2 : marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity <intimate knowledge of the law>
3 a : marked by a warm friendship developing through long association <intimate friends> b : suggesting informal warmth or privacy <intimate clubs>
4 : of a very personal or private nature <intimate secrets>

Intimate as in warmingly close, personal, and deeply rooted friendship. To be intimate is to know each other incredibly well. Warmly, Lovingly, Friendship, Personally, Privately.

Does that help in defining what I mean? Hope so!

Indeed the Spirit is all these things. I'm glad you have found the Holy Spirit. You seem to have a real sense of purpose. Good for you.

THANKS! ^_^ I'm really happy with Him. He's so awesome.

Zecryphon

8th November 2006, 09:38 PM

I know of at least one donkey who spoke God's will and a whore who did God's will by lying.
And how does that one-liner answer either of the questions posed?

Zecryphon

8th November 2006, 09:48 PM

Actually, we are perfect too, having been born again by God. You are his by relation, by family ties. Of course, your human brain may still be tuned on to sin and open to unhealthy thoughts, but we have the option of taking every thought captive :) Let's practice that skill, and stop believing the lies of the accuser. It is not God who says you are a sinner.
So we know we are sinners because Satan tells us so? Or are we are sinners because the law of God declares us so? Isn't it through God's law that we become concious of what sin is? See Romans 7:7

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Also, I've never seen the brain credited with being the part of us that is prone to sinful behavior, I've always seen the flesh as being responsible for our sins. When we give into our brain we don't sin, but only when we give into our flesh.

Zecryphon

8th November 2006, 10:01 PM

"God will humble all men, for all men are prideful."

Yes He will.

"You don't have to quote those words to me,"

So I'm not allowed to quote scripture? Alot of your post is nothing but scripture quotations. Why is it okay for you to quote scripture to others, but it is not okay for others to quote it to you?

"I know God humbles me constantly, and I pray constantly, "Please, I am proud, humble me." I pray, nearly every day, for God to humble me because I know I am proud. Do you do the same?"

Why do you continually try to shift the focus of the discussion onto me?

"Don't judge me as exalted whom God will humble if you are not willing to also be judged."

Where did I say I was not willing to be judged?

"Do you not exalt yourself?"

How can I when I accept my dual nature as both forgiven and sinner and am neither prideful enough nor boastful enough to declare myself righteous. I will declare myself forgiven, but never righteous.

"Are you not also filled with pride?"

Still trying to shift the focus onto me huh? :-)

"Will God not also humble you?"

Of course He will.

RonnyRulz

8th November 2006, 10:33 PM

That's all well and good. They were rhetorical questions, not real questions, lol. I was using rhetorical questions that were directing your question back at you, as to nullify your question/attack. It's a form of defense that nullifies the offense.

So I'm not allowed to quote scripture? Alot of your post is nothing but scripture quotations. Why is it okay for you to quote scripture to others, but it is not okay for others to quote it to you?

I have a question for you dealing with something I've always wondered about humanity.

How do you read
"You don't have to quote those words to me,"

And translate it into
"You are not allowed to quote those words to me."

How do you take something I say of "You don't have to." and translate it into "You aren't allowed to." Those are two completely different things.

I have always been interested in people reading one thing, and perceiving another. It is my theory that people do this because they want the other person to have meant that, so as to be "victorious" in the debate. Kind of like a thing where they read it one way, but unconsciously perceive it so that they can find a flaw in an otherwise normal sentence.

How do you read something and perceive it to change the meaning???? Why do people do this? I made a thread about it in General Theology, but no one ever gave me an answer. :(

linssue55

8th November 2006, 10:39 PM

No no no, Agape love is all about LOVE. God's Love is above any human law ever made. Agape love puts love about the law. If you have to break the law to love someone, Agape love breaks the law.
Love > Law
No, no, no. First this is NOT the dispensation of the Law, this is the CHURCH age= Grace. Read my post again. Phileo is "PERSONAL" love for family, friends, loved one's.

Agape love is for all man kind="IMPERSONAL LOVE". For ALL, Bin Laden, Sadam, our enemies and people we do NOT phileo (strangers etc). Both loves keep us from judging people with hate in our hearts.

And regardless of how amazing and perfect true Agape love is, the point I'm making is people are saying "Hate the sin, phileo the sinner." when they should just be saying "Agape the sinner."

Sin is not material.....people are. Sin does not have a soul........ people do. We are to hate sin, like we are to hate evil. Again you are combining the sin and the sinner as one, they are not one.

Why even have the hate the sin part? In my opinion it's better just to say "Love the Sinner." and that's it. It's none of our business to judge those outside the church, or the "sinner" in this case. As if "the Sinner" is only unchristian people. People forget christians sin just like non-christians.

Well then say what you wish.

"ALL have sinned."

I will always hate sin, and evil. MANY christians do, they are not playing the semantics game, or pulling the wool over their own eyes, or being hypocritical to themselves. I hate sin and evil, WITHOUT it harboring scars in my soul in any way. This is where we are to keep a relaxed mental attitude about all the bad things in this devil's world.

Psalm 97:10 says, "You who love the Lord, HATE EVIL! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked."

Zecryphon

8th November 2006, 11:12 PM

"How do you read
"You don't have to quote those words to me,"

And translate it into
"You are not allowed to quote those words to me.""

I did not say what you have quoted me as saying. I simply asked "am I not allowed to quote scripture?" This puts the question back to you, am I allowed to quote scripture yes or no? I read "you don't have to quote those words to me" to mean, don't waste your time telling me what the scriptures say, I already know. That's how I took your statement.

"How do you take something I say of "You don't have to." and translate it into "You aren't allowed to.""

And since I didn't do this, but instead asked you a question, this statement by you is untrue.

"Those are two completely different things."

Yes they are.

"I have always been interested in people reading one thing, and perceiving another. It is my theory that people do this because they want the other person to have meant that, so as to be "victorious" in the debate."

I'm not debating with you, I'm discussing. There is no victor in a discussion. Why do you feel this is a debate as opposed to a discussion?

"Kind of like a thing where they read it one way, but unconsciously perceive it so that they can find a flaw in an otherwise normal sentence."

I'm not looking for flaws, but simply asking questions about what I read in your posts.

"How do you read something and perceive it to change the meaning???? Why do people do this? I made a thread about it in General Theology, but no one ever gave me an answer. :("

You most likely didn't get an answer to your question because you posted a psychology question in a theology forum. If you want an answer to a psychological question go to a psychologist or a psychology forum.

JDIBe

9th November 2006, 12:32 AM

People say that the right thing is to "Hate the sin, but Love the sinner." I think, that although this is correct, it is the wrong way to be a Christian. Yea, we are to hate sin. Yea, we are to love the sinner. BUT, I think that this view of "hate sin, love sinner" is in fact creating hate for the sinner. In my opinion, this view is wrong.

From what I know about Love, God's Love towards us, and Love Love Love, it's this: Love blinds. I think to truly love others, with God's Love, and to see them the way God sees us, is to be SO full of Love that we're blinded.

That the quote, "Hate the sin, Love the Sinner." is a wrong life-view, and the more correct version is this:

"Love the Sinner, be blind to the sin."

Other's sin is none of our business, it's God. Why should we "hate the sin" when it only portrays a hateful negativity to the sinner? But we are not to judge those outside of the church. That's in scripture. If we don't judge those outside of the church, and we love them so much, are we not completely blind to sin?

God loves me so much that it is as if He is blind to my sin. He looks down at me and sees His wonderful child, covered in Jesus's Blood, blinded by my sin that is underneath the Blood. From what I know personally of God, He is blinded by His Love. God would normally see my sin, but because I am covered in Jesus's Blood, He doesn't see my sin, He can't, He only sees the Blood of Jesus covering me.

And for you "semantics" people who have to have EVERY word perfect, here's a rephrased statement of what I see as the correct view:

"Love the sinner, be as if blind to the sin."

It's not a Christian's place to judge others, but in "hate the sin" I see nothing but Christians judging and hating others. This view of "Hate the Sin" doesn't produce the fruit of "Love the Sinner." If we truly loved the sinner, we'd be as if blinded to their sin.

I'm not sure I understand the statement "I know this is correct, but I think it is the wrong way to be a Christian", but anyway.....

Rom 12:9
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Something to think about: If we are to be blinded to other people's sin, how are you supposed to feel if someone else treats a helpless person unjustly? What about the Holocaust? Is it right to turn a blind eye toward injustice? I'm not saying taking vengence. I'm saying how are you supposed to feel? Indifferent?

Also, what do you do with Rev. 2:6?

Rev 2:6
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

I understand your desire to love the person and avoid hating them, but you can not turn a blind eye to sin. To do so turns a blind eye to the damage it creates in other people as well as the person itself. And that is as unloving as hating the person itself.

RonnyRulz

9th November 2006, 12:42 AM

I did not say what you have quoted me as saying. I simply asked "am I not allowed to quote scripture?" This puts the question back to you, am I allowed to quote scripture yes or no?

-_- OKIE DOKIE. You should always naturally assume EVERYONE believes you are not allowed to quote scripture???

You rather lack common sense, or you were purposefully translating what I said to mean something else so you could "win" the debate.

Give be a break. This is over, this is now officially ridiculous.

RonnyRulz

9th November 2006, 12:49 AM

I will always hate sin, and evil. MANY christians do, they are not... ...being hypocritical to themselves.

HAHAHA. You are joking right?
Everyone is hypocritical to themselves.

If you truly hated sin, you would be sinless. It is human nature to love sin, and you may hate some sin, but you love others. If you didn't love sin you would be sinless.

RonnyRulz

9th November 2006, 12:52 AM

Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner

Ha, hypocrites, hate the sin? If you truly hated sin, then you would be sinless. Yet you love sin. And you say you love the sinner? If you truly loved the sinner, you wouldn't be on a campaign to limit their freedoms, but you would be accepting and caring.

holo

9th November 2006, 07:39 AM

And how does that one-liner answer either of the questions posed?It means you don't necessarily have to know the will of God to do it. God is greater than our understanding and intetions.

So we know we are sinners because Satan tells us so? Or are we are sinners because the law of God declares us so? Isn't it through God's law that we become concious of what sin is? See Romans 7:7

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Also, I've never seen the brain credited with being the part of us that is prone to sinful behavior, I've always seen the flesh as being responsible for our sins. When we give into our brain we don't sin, but only when we give into our flesh.Satan accuses you, God doesn't. You're not a sinner, you're a saint. God has declared you righteous, therefore you are righteous. The devil will always use the law to accuse you, that's all he CAN use. But we are dead with Christ, dead to ourselves, sin, and the world, and not under the law anymore.

Zecryphon

9th November 2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=28721798#post28721798)
And how does that one-liner answer either of the questions posed?

"It means you don't necessarily have to know the will of God to do it."

Really? If you don't know the will of God, how can you accomplish it?

"God is greater than our understanding and intetions."

True, but we're focusing on a single aspect of God here, His will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=28722120#post28722120)
So we know we are sinners because Satan tells us so? Or are we are sinners because the law of God declares us so? Isn't it through God's law that we become concious of what sin is? See Romans 7:7

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Also, I've never seen the brain credited with being the part of us that is prone to sinful behavior, I've always seen the flesh as being responsible for our sins. When we give into our brain we don't sin, but only when we give into our flesh.

"Satan accuses you, God doesn't."

Satan does accuse you, yes. But it is God that will judge you and decide whether you are innocent or guilty. God will also be the one to either reward you or punish you. Satan may accuse, but God is the judge, jury and executioner. Whom shall I fear more? My accuser or the judge I face?

You're not a sinner, you're a saint."

If I'm not a sinner then I don't need Christ and His gift, I am without sin. Since I am a Christian, I obviously do need Christ and His gift, because I am a sinner. I'm a forgiven sinner, but still a sinner.

"God has declared you righteous, therefore you are righteous."

God will declare me as such on judgement day. That day has not arrived yet. Until then I will be both saint and sinner. Are you telling me that you are now righteous and do not sin anymore?

"The devil will always use the law to accuse you, that's all he CAN use. But we are dead with Christ, dead to ourselves, sin, and the world, and not under the law anymore."

So God's law no longer applies to us? The Ten Commandments have no meaning to us? We can do whatever we want? I think not.

Zecryphon

9th November 2006, 09:59 AM

-_- OKIE DOKIE. You should always naturally assume EVERYONE believes you are not allowed to quote scripture???

You rather lack common sense, or you were purposefully translating what I said to mean something else so you could "win" the debate.

Give be a break. This is over, this is now officially ridiculous.
I ask you one question and instead of answering that question you misrepresent what I said and attribute statements to me that I never made. Your response here further proves that you will not answer my question. Of course I and everyone else am allowed to quote scripture, but for some reason you have a problem having it quoted to you. That's your own issue you will have to work through. I agree this conversation is over, because you seem to only be good at making assertions and quoting scripture to back up those assertions. In my opinion, as deomonstrated so far, you are incapapble of discussing the assertions you've made and when someone shows how you've misrepresented them and their statements instead of apologizing for such behavior you launch into a personal attack. I do not lack common sense, but you may lack common social graces. See ya around.

linssue55

9th November 2006, 03:22 PM

HAHAHA. You are joking right?
Everyone is hypocritical to themselves.

If you truly hated sin, you would be sinless. It is human nature to love sin, and you may hate some sin, but you love others. If you didn't love sin you would be sinless.

NO! You think you know me or people?! You have no idea what you are talking about. This could only come from a person that is really mixed up about christianity. If YOU love some sins, then your human fleshly lusts are getting the best of you.

I hate "ALL" sin........"ALL" sin, especially my own. IF I loved my own sin, I would have to be a sadist, with severe psycotic tendencies.

You need to learn about the doctrine of the "Old Sin Nature!" Your lack of knowledge is frightening, and extremely self destructive.

MarkEvan

9th November 2006, 03:45 PM

holo

9th November 2006, 04:04 PM

Really? If you don't know the will of God, how can you accomplish it?Well, I don't know it the talking donkey knew the will of God. It still accomplished it though. The jews didn't know it was the will of God that Jesus be crucified, but they still did it.

Satan does accuse you, yes. But it is God that will judge you and decide whether you are innocent or guilty. God will also be the one to either reward you or punish you. Satan may accuse, but God is the judge, jury and executioner. Whom shall I fear more? My accuser or the judge I face?You don't need to fear either of them, because one is without ammo and the other has already aquitted you. God has decided that you have the very righteousness of Jesus Christ. Now that's something :)

If I'm not a sinner then I don't need Christ and His gift, I am without sin. Since I am a Christian, I obviously do need Christ and His gift, because I am a sinner. I'm a forgiven sinner, but still a sinner.No, not even the bible says you are sinner, only forgiven. It says you are a saint, and I believe that.

We don't need to crucify Jesus again. He has died once and for all.

But I understand the conflict and the dilemma. The thing is, your old man, your old spirit, was sinful by nature, wicked, lost. That person is dead, crucified with Jesus, and you have a new spirit in you, born again, a spirit that can't actually sin. I think that's why Paul says that "it is then no longer I, but the sin that indwells me" that sins - in other words, your identity is that of a child of God. You just behave like you're not, probably because you don't think you're actually righteous. You think you're a sinner, so you do what sinners do - you sin.

God will declare me as such on judgement day. That day has not arrived yet. Until then I will be both saint and sinner. Are you telling me that you are now righteous and do not sin anymore?Yes. I, that is, my spirit, a.k.a. my innermost being, my heart, the part of me that lives forever, is clean. Yes, sin and illness and weakness still inhabit my body, and renewing the mind is a lifelong process, but according to God I'm a saint. In other words, guiltfree. Blameless. Not a sinner.

So God's law no longer applies to us? The Ten Commandments have no meaning to us? We can do whatever we want? I think not.Yes, the law no longer applies to us. The law is for the ungodly and the wicked. We are not under it. We're dead to it, even. It holds no power over us, just like a woman is no longer bound to her dead husband. Yes, we can do whatever we want. What do you want to do?

SteelDisciple

9th November 2006, 04:29 PM

Ha, hypocrites, hate the sin? If you truly hated sin, then you would be sinless. Yet you love sin. And you say you love the sinner? If you truly loved the sinner, you wouldn't be on a campaign to limit their freedoms, but you would be accepting and caring.

How typical.
you are mistaking caring for compromise.

IN America today we have a real problem...people don't just want you to accept that is the choice they made...but now they want you to AGREE with them, even if it compromises the Word of God.

Now THAT is hypocritical.

MaidforHim

9th November 2006, 05:13 PM

People say that the right thing is to "Hate the sin, but Love the sinner." I think, that although this is correct, it is the wrong way to be a Christian. Yea, we are to hate sin. Yea, we are to love the sinner. BUT, I think that this view of "hate sin, love sinner" is in fact creating hate for the sinner. In my opinion, this view is wrong.

From what I know about Love, God's Love towards us, and Love Love Love, it's this: Love blinds. I think to truly love others, with God's Love, and to see them the way God sees us, is to be SO full of Love that we're blinded.

That the quote, "Hate the sin, Love the Sinner." is a wrong life-view, and the more correct version is this:

"Love the Sinner, be blind to the sin."

Other's sin is none of our business, it's God. Why should we "hate the sin" when it only portrays a hateful negativity to the sinner? But we are not to judge those outside of the church. That's in scripture. If we don't judge those outside of the church, and we love them so much, are we not completely blind to sin?

God loves me so much that it is as if He is blind to my sin. He looks down at me and sees His wonderful child, covered in Jesus's Blood, blinded by my sin that is underneath the Blood. From what I know personally of God, He is blinded by His Love. God would normally see my sin, but because I am covered in Jesus's Blood, He doesn't see my sin, He can't, He only sees the Blood of Jesus covering me.

And for you "semantics" people who have to have EVERY word perfect, here's a rephrased statement of what I see as the correct view:

"Love the sinner, be as if blind to the sin."

It's not a Christian's place to judge others, but in "hate the sin" I see nothing but Christians judging and hating others. This view of "Hate the Sin" doesn't produce the fruit of "Love the Sinner." If we truly loved the sinner, we'd be as if blinded to their sin.

I've read verses that say if you love God you hate sin.
And some that say "love your neighbor as yourself"
And even some that say to correct and reproof eachother....

Never seen a verse that mentions Godly love blinding anyone. That's man's view.

If you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit it most certainly is possible to love the sinner while hating the sin. It is sin that can destroy our souls and the love of Christ that can save them.

I don't think your giving the Holy Spirit enough credit for the guidance and discernment He offers the faithful spirit led believer.

Zecryphon

9th November 2006, 06:38 PM

"Well, I don't know it the talking donkey knew the will of God. It still accomplished it though."

Could you give me the scripture location of this event, it's been a while since I read it.

"The jews didn't know it was the will of God that Jesus be crucified, but they still did it."

Actually, the Jews did not put Jesus on that cross we ALL did. Be careful of saying the Jews put Jesus on the cross because you will be labeled an anti-Semite and may be accused of being ignorant as well. I used to be a moderator on another Christian forum and saw this happen a few times. My question applies to people who wish to do the will of God. If you wish to do the will of God, but do not know what that will of God is, how can you accomplish the will of God? Does God control all your actions so that at the end of the day He is glorified? Where does that leave free will and choice then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=28739164#post28739164)
Satan does accuse you, yes. But it is God that will judge you and decide whether you are innocent or guilty. God will also be the one to either reward you or punish you. Satan may accuse, but God is the judge, jury and executioner. Whom shall I fear more? My accuser or the judge I face?

"You don't need to fear either of them, because one is without ammo and the other has already aquitted you."

Wasn't it Paul who said "fear of God is the beginning of knowledge?" It's been explained to me that "fear" doesn't mean to be afraid of God but to give reverence to God. On the day of judgement I will be acquitted. I still have a trial to attend, my own.

"God has decided that you have the very righteousness of Jesus Christ. Now that's something :)"

God may have decided that, but He has not pronounced me innocent yet. My judgement in God's court is a future appointment. Unfortunately, I have to be declared late, before I can make that appointment. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=28739164#post28739164)
If I'm not a sinner then I don't need Christ and His gift, I am without sin. Since I am a Christian, I obviously do need Christ and His gift, because I am a sinner. I'm a forgiven sinner, but still a sinner.

"No, not even the bible says you are sinner, only forgiven. It says you are a saint, and I believe that."

I guess it depends upon how you define a saint. Where does it say I'm a saint? I remember reading that I am forgiven by the grace of God and not of works, lest I should boast.

"We don't need to crucify Jesus again. He has died once and for all."

True.

"But I understand the conflict and the dilemma. The thing is, your old man, your old spirit, was sinful by nature, wicked, lost. That person is dead, crucified with Jesus, and you have a new spirit in you, born again, a spirit that can't actually sin. I think that's why Paul says that "it is then no longer I, but the sin that indwells me" that sins - in other words, your identity is that of a child of God. You just behave like you're not, probably because you don't think you're actually righteous. You think you're a sinner, so you do what sinners do - you sin."

Everybody still sins. Everybody stumbles in their walk with Christ. I once heard it said on the Issues, Etc. podcast that if a person says they have lived a day without sinning, they are a liar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=28739164#post28739164)
God will declare me as such on judgement day. That day has not arrived yet. Until then I will be both saint and sinner. Are you telling me that you are now righteous and do not sin anymore?

"Yes. I, that is, my spirit, a.k.a. my innermost being, my heart, the part of me that lives forever, is clean. Yes, sin and illness and weakness still inhabit my body, and renewing the mind is a lifelong process, but according to God I'm a saint. In other words, guiltfree. Blameless. Not a sinner."

I think we have a dual nature, that of saint and sinner at the same time. If this were not true we would not wrestle with the desires of our flesh. Ted Haggard is the most recent example of a man struggling against his own flesh. If he was declared righteous, this whole thing of sexual immorality and drugs should not have been a problem right? He shouldn't have even been tempted right? But he was. Does that mean he's a false convert or a backslider? Maybe, maybe not. Only God knows the state of Ted's soul and now it is between God and Ted to fix things in their relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=28739164#post28739164)
So God's law no longer applies to us? The Ten Commandments have no meaning to us? We can do whatever we want? I think not.

"Yes, the law no longer applies to us."

So when God judges you on Judgement Day, what standard will He be using to determine if you are innocent or guilty if not the Ten Commandments?

"The law is for the ungodly and the wicked."

Which describes everybody on the planet. Remember, Jesus Himself declared that no one is good except God Himself.

"We are not under it. We're dead to it, even. It holds no power over us, just like a woman is no longer bound to her dead husband. Yes, we can do whatever we want."

So you could go out and break every one of the commandments and not have to worry about anything because you're "saved" and "born again"? Take a look at this from the Way of the Master website:

The forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ is conditional upon "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). It is a gift that God offers to everyone, but individuals must receive it by repenting and trusting in Christ, or they will remain dead in their sins. No one has biblical grounds to continue in sin, assuming that they are safe just because Jesus died on the cross. See 1 John 3:4–6. So if you think you can do whatever you want because you are saved, think again.

"What do you want to do?"

Right now I want the dishwasher repair guy to get here.

holo

9th November 2006, 08:36 PM

Could you give me the scripture location of this event, it's been a while since I read it.2 Peter 2:16

Actually, the Jews did not put Jesus on that cross we ALL did. Be careful of saying the Jews put Jesus on the cross because you will be labeled an anti-Semite and may be accused of being ignorant as well. I used to be a moderator on another Christian forum and saw this happen a few times. My question applies to people who wish to do the will of God. If you wish to do the will of God, but do not know what that will of God is, how can you accomplish the will of God? Does God control all your actions so that at the end of the day He is glorified? Where does that leave free will and choice then?That's an interesting question, and I'm not sure I'll ever find the full answer to it. I do know that God can, and does, use even my flaws and wrongdoings and my idiotic past.

And what is the will of God? I've begun wondering if it's really so that every day, God has a perfect plan for me, having decided how I should live my life in the ultimate best way, minute by minute. I'm created in his image, and maybe I'm supposed to use my free will for just that - free willing. Perhaps God wants ME to make some of the choices. Perhaps we're missing the point when we first thank God for giving us free will, and then lay it on the shelf and ask him what his will is. What do you thinkg? I have a few unfinished thoughts about this.

Wasn't it Paul who said "fear of God is the beginning of knowledge?" It's been explained to me that "fear" doesn't mean to be afraid of God but to give reverence to God. On the day of judgement I will be acquitted. I still have a trial to attend, my own.I too believe that "fear of the Lord" doesn't mean to be scared. But I think I disagree on the judgment part. I believe we have already been made righteous. We are already dead (and raised up!) with Christ. The second or final judgment I don't know too much about, but as far as I understand it, the idea is not to judge me as either good or bad, but rather the fruits of my life.

I think that if I was still a sinner in the eyes of the Lord, he couldn't/wouldn't have been so present in my life.

God may have decided that, but He has not pronounced me innocent yet. My judgement in God's court is a future appointment. Unfortunately, I have to be declared late, before I can make that appointment. LOLHehe!

Well, excuse me then, while I eat the cake right away and celebrate beforehand. :)
You already are late, you are already deceased and buried. That's the miracle, that's what makes it all possible - you can reckon yourself dead to sin, because the old you is actually dead.

I guess it depends upon how you define a saint. Where does it say I'm a saint? I remember reading that I am forgiven by the grace of God and not of works, lest I should boast.Come to think of it, I don't actually know the definition of "saint." I need to check that out. But I'm basically thinking that saint=holy, sinless, blameless. Paul addressed his letter to "the saints in Rome" for example. He also talks about the believer as one who "is dead to sin" and "having been made righteous" and so forth.

You know the whole "walk by faith, not by sight" deal? That applies to our nature and our behaviour too. I see sin, but I have faith that I'm a saint anyhow. And, like in many other instances, faith precedes action. I believe I'm a saint, therefore I act like one. We're like the elephants tied to small and weak poles; they don't try to escape because they believe they can't. They've given up, and they think it's the chain's fault. But the problem lies only in their lack of faith. See what I mean? The elephant is actually free, he just doesn't know. And believers are free from sin, we just don't know.

I think we have a dual nature, that of saint and sinner at the same time. If this were not true we would not wrestle with the desires of our flesh. Ted Haggard is the most recent example of a man struggling against his own flesh. If he was declared righteous, this whole thing of sexual immorality and drugs should not have been a problem right? He shouldn't have even been tempted right? But he was. Does that mean he's a false convert or a backslider? Maybe, maybe not. Only God knows the state of Ted's soul and now it is between God and Ted to fix things in their relationship.You say "the desires of our flesh" - and that's just what it is. It's not your spirit that wants to sin. Your inner man objects to sin, he's revolted by it, he wants to live a holy life! And that's your true nature. Your flesh isn't a different nature, it's just flesh. You're only one person. Unfortunately, you might say, you're trapped in a body (for the time being). But that can be a good thing too, since you can "present your limbs as instruments of righteousness" :)

I don't know too much about this Haggard guy, but yes, he was probably struggling against his own flesh. And I think the reason he lost is because he tried beatinf flesh with flesh. I'm sure he tried really hard for year after year to control his sin. He probably "re-dedicated" himself to God plenty of times, maybe he made oaths and promises and all. You know, all those things we do to curb sin, to make ourselves better. It just doesn't work. Even Paul, who by his own account went far beyond his contemporaries and was "blameless"(!) with regards to the law, didn't dare trying to make it on his own anymore. In fact, he considered it all rubbish for the sake of knowing Christ. Haggard probably didn't.

So when God judges you on Judgement Day, what standard will He be using to determine if you are innocent or guilty if not the Ten Commandments?I think when God judges, he will use a far stricter standard than that. And the old me would fail just as miserably :)

But no matter what standard God will judge by, Jesus will surely live up to it. And I'm like Jesus. He's the firstborn of many brethren, I'm in him and he's in me etc etc.

Which describes everybody on the planet. Remember, Jesus Himself declared that no one is good except God Himself.God, and those who are born of him, a.k.a. us. :)

The fall of the first Adam became a curse for all mankind. How much more, writes Paul, will we be made righteous by Jesus, the second Adam.

So you could go out and break every one of the commandments and not have to worry about anything because you're "saved" and "born again"?My behaviour doesn't change my identity. I can't escape from the fact that I have my father's flesh and blood, even if I'd be so dumb as, say, kill people instead of looking at my father and becoming more like him.

While my behaviour doesn't change my identity (birth right) as a child of God, it certainly has impact on my life and the lives of others. And that's the reason I'd rather not sin. It's a much better motivation than laws and fear.

"What do you want to do?"

Right now I want the dishwasher repair guy to get here.Hah!

But think about it, though. What do you want deep down inside? You love someone, don't you? If you compare your desire for them to be happy, to know Jesus, with your desire to look at porn (for example), aren't they very different? See how one desire comes from the flesh while the other comes from the deepest parts of you? That desire to do good comes from your spirit. Your spirit is actually born of God. Imagine that :)

Reyanah

10th November 2006, 02:45 AM

Zecryphon

10th November 2006, 10:03 AM

<Could you give me the scripture location of this event, it's been a while since I read it.>

“2 Peter 2:16”

Thank you.

<Actually, the Jews did not put Jesus on that cross we ALL did. Be careful of saying the Jews put Jesus on the cross because you will be labeled an anti-Semite and may be accused of being ignorant as well. I used to be a moderator on another Christian forum and saw this happen a few times. My question applies to people who wish to do the will of God. If you wish to do the will of God, but do not know what that will of God is, how can you accomplish the will of God? Does God control all your actions so that at the end of the day He is glorified? Where does that leave free will and choice then?>

“That's an interesting question, and I'm not sure I'll ever find the full answer to it. I do know that God can, and does, use even my flaws and wrongdoings and my idiotic past.”

That’s true God does use all of those things.

“And what is the will of God? I've begun wondering if it's really so that every day, God has a perfect plan for me, having decided how I should live my life in the ultimate best way, minute by minute. I'm created in his image, and maybe I'm supposed to use my free will for just that - free willing. Perhaps God wants ME to make some of the choices. Perhaps we're missing the point when we first thank God for giving us free will, and then lay it on the shelf and ask him what his will is. What do you thinkg? I have a few unfinished thoughts about this.”

I don’t think God is as “hands-on” in our lives as we may have been led to believe by some in the pulpit. I believe God sits back and watches over His creation, but that every time there is a situation where we need to make a choice, I don’t know that He intervenes and decides for us. If He did, wouldn’t we just be sitting back and waiting for God to fix our problems? God gave us an incredible mind capable of finding solutions to the greatest mysteries of the universe. Why would He do that if He just wanted us to sit on our hands and do nothing and turn all our troubles over to Him?

I believe He gave us freewill so that we could decide what to do for ourselves. The world will try and confuse you and tell you things like “if you always choose to do God’s will you’re not using your freewill.” Nonsense! If you use your freewill to choose to do God’s will, then you have exercised your freewill properly. You were presented with a choice, either take the wide road that leads to destruction or choose the narrow road that leads to paradise. I also believe this is a huge philosophical question and we will never know the answer for certain this side of heaven.

“I too believe that "fear of the Lord" doesn't mean to be scared. But I think I disagree on the judgment part. I believe we have already been made righteous. We are already dead (and raised up!) with Christ. The second or final judgment I don't know too much about, but as far as I understand it, the idea is not to judge me as either good or bad, but rather the fruits of my life.”

Your name has been written in the book of life, yes. But I don’t believe that the book of life will be opened until Judgment Day. That is the day when you will be accused by Satan of all your wrong doings, you then will give an account of why you did those things and God will then open the book of life. If He sees your name in there, because you accepted Jesus’ free gift of salvation for your sin, then you will be declared innocent. The “fruits of life” you speak of, are related to the rewards in heaven that you will receive. They have nothing to do with salvation. Because there is nothing we can do to obtain salvation it is a free gift. So if you have done great works because of your changed heart, then you will be rewarded but the two are separate issues.

“I think that if I was still a sinner in the eyes of the Lord, he couldn't/wouldn't have been so present in my life.”

Why do you think this? Remember Jesus’ earthly ministry. Who did He hang out with? What kinds of people did He surround Himself with? The people He chose as his disciples were considered scum and liars and generally untrustworthy by the rest of society. Prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen and shepherds, these were not upstanding members of society. But they are the people Jesus called friends and apostles. Jesus did not hang with the nobility, but He certainly could have as He was king of the Jews. He would have had every right to do so. He did not hang out with the Sadducees, the Pharisees or the kings of the earth or the scribes. Jesus said that sick people don’t need a doctor and that good people don’t need a savior. Jesus came to save the lost and wicked people. People like you and me. I think He’s been such a presence in your life, because you are exactly the kind of person He came to earth to save. You and I are the people Jesus wants to be with, He chose us, we did not choose Him. It’s also been said that if Jesus returned to earth today, the church would not recognize Him, because of the company He would keep. It really makes you think, doesn’t it?

<I guess it depends upon how you define a saint. Where does it say I'm a saint? I remember reading that I am forgiven by the grace of God and not of works, lest I should boast.>

“Well, excuse me then, while I eat the cake right away and celebrate beforehand.”

Knock yourself out! J

“You already are late, you are already deceased and buried.”

Aww man, and I don’t have a burial plot yet. I’m always the last to know! LOL

“That's the miracle, that's what makes it all possible - you can reckon yourself dead to sin, because the old you is actually dead.”

Because I believe in a dual nature, I can’t agree with that. I will say the old me is not dead but just lying dormant, waiting for a moment of spiritual weakness from me so it can come to the surface.

“You say "the desires of our flesh" - and that's just what it is. It's not your spirit that wants to sin.”

I’ve heard that the idea of a soul or a spirit is a Greek addition and a Greek idea. It was very popular in their own myths and stories. But how can that be if when we die we go to be with Jesus. Maybe we too are made up of three basic parts. Flesh, bone and spirit.
Just because Jesus did not specifically say we have a soul does not mean we do not have one. Jesus never condemend homosexual behavior either, doesn't mean He approves of it though, does it?

“I don't know too much about this Haggard guy, but yes, he was probably struggling against his own flesh.”

This forum has a couple of threads devoted to this topic.

“And I think the reason he lost is because he tried beatinf flesh with flesh. I'm sure he tried really hard for year after year to control his sin. He probably "re-dedicated" himself to God plenty of times, maybe he made oaths and promises and all. You know, all those things we do to curb sin, to make ourselves better. It just doesn't work.”

No it doesn’t work. But this could have been the best thing to happen to Ted. Because now that his secret is out, now that he has been humbled and humiliated he can now come to God in honest heartfelt repentance and finally be saved.

“Even Paul, who by his own account went far beyond his contemporaries and was "blameless"(!) with regards to the law, didn't dare trying to make it on his own anymore. In fact, he considered it all rubbish for the sake of knowing Christ. Haggard probably didn't.”

We will have to see which path Ted takes. I’m not going to be following it too closely after the media hype surrounding it dies down. But I’ll keep tabs on it to see how he progresses. My guess is he’ll go the way of Jimmy Swaggart and the others, and not return to public ministry for quite a few years, if he ever does return.

<So when God judges you on Judgement Day, what standard will He be using to determine if you are innocent or guilty if not the Ten Commandments?>

“I think when God judges, he will use a far stricter standard than that. And the old me would fail just as miserably.”

What higher standard is there than God’s own law? You will fail, but because you are in Jesus you will be declared on that day righteous.

<Which describes everybody on the planet. Remember, Jesus Himself declared that no one is good except God Himself.>

“God, and those who are born of him, a.k.a. us.”

I was dealing with that verse in context. When Jesus spoke those words, He had not yet died for our sin, so at the time those words were spoken they were true. Now of course things have changed.

linssue55

10th November 2006, 10:29 AM

Jesus didnt' come to those who didn't need a Physician but to those who did....we are to love what God loves and hate what He hates...get to Know Him and you'll know the difference. God loves the world and the folks in it...He hates what sin has done to His creation and to the people.God does not hate, nor is He jealous. For these things are sins and we KNOW the Lord is sinless and perfect. These words are "Anthropopatisms."

MaidforHim

10th November 2006, 12:26 PM

RonnyRulz

10th November 2006, 06:17 PM

Ronny what do you make of Leviticus 19 vs 17 and18 "if you see your brother in sin you shall not hate him in your heart but shall reprove him lest you be guilty of his sin," A loose translation I am afraid but roughly right, if you want to use the bible search thingy then the verses are the ones quoted. There it apears that God is saying that if you see your brother in sin and do not reprove him (turn a blind eye) then you hate him in your heart.

Mark

Props on using the bible, logic, reason, common sense, and intelligence to debating me. Thanks, I appreaciate how you are using the bible and your brain instead of a black-heart. Props to you! I'll definitely look into that verse.

You think you know me or people?! You have no idea what you are talking about. This could only come from a person that is really mixed up about christianity. If YOU love some sins, then your human fleshly lusts are getting the best of you.

Yes, I do know you and people. You're HUMAN BEINGS. Unless you are some kind of alien, then I guess I'm wrong. But you aren't an alien, are you? It is human nature to love sin. You can't say "I hate ALL sin" yet continue to walk in sin. You can't say you hate sin and then right afterwards sin. If you hate sin, you would be sinless. Are you sinless? Are you perfect? Are you without sin? If you think you are, which you apparently think you are because you say you hate sin when you actually love it (because you're a HUMAN) the sin you commit is called self-righteousness. Thinking you are sinless. Saying with your mouth "I hate sin" but in your heart loving it. Who is he that does not enjoy sin?

If you hate sin, yet still sin, you are rather a liar or a weakling. If you are so weak to not be able to overcome that which you hate, you aren't walking in God's overcoming conquering power. If you are walking in God's Power, the problem isn't that you hate sin and can't overcome it, the problem is that you like sin and that's why you commit it.

I do know you, and everyone. It's called human nature. All human beings love to sin. Sin is enjoyable. Sin is the easy way out. The simple way. Turning to God instead of sin is counter to our human nature.

Your lack of knowledge is frightening, and extremely self destructive.

That's so odd that my knowledge is extremely self destructive, because reality and God who changes me from glory to glory would say differently. I love sin, because I'm a sinner. But God works with me and changes my heart from loving sin to hating sin, and then to overcoming that sin. Still, I am a sinner at heart and a lover of sin. If I didn't love sin so much, I would not be so attached to it. If I truly hated sin, I'd be sinless.

Never seen a verse that mentions Godly love blinding anyone.

You might not find the verse, but you will find the meaning. God loves us and sees the good in us. He doesn't look at us and say "What a disgusting creation."

If you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit it most certainly is possible to love the sinner while hating the sin.

Yes, that's true. My point isn't that it's not true to hate sin and love the sinner, but that man fails at this more often than not, and is a hypocrite on many levels when it is said. Most people who say hate the sin, love the sinner, in fact actually love their own sin, hate other's sin that they don't commit, and hate the sinner, but love themselves.

I don't think your giving the Holy Spirit enough credit for the guidance and discernment He offers the faithful spirit led believer.

I give Him all the credit, it's man and christians whom I don't give credit. God gives guidance and discernment to the faithful spirit led believer. It's just that most christians aren't faithful, and even fewer are more often spirit led than not. I give all credit to God, but no credit to man.

God does not hate, nor is He jealous. For these things are sins and we KNOW the Lord is sinless and perfect. These words are "Anthropopatisms."

Well said. God DOES NOT HATE.

One day a real Leader will arise out of the fire like gold and will lead God's people to receive love in their heart and to abolish hate and the rules of men.

RonnyRulz

10th November 2006, 06:18 PM

He who has ears will hear. All the others will just remain close-minded and hard-hearted.

holo

10th November 2006, 08:33 PM

Your name has been written in the book of life, yes. But I don’t believe that the book of life will be opened until Judgment Day. That is the day when you will be accused by Satan of all your wrong doings, you then will give an account of why you did those things and God will then open the book of life. If He sees your name in there, because you accepted Jesus’ free gift of salvation for your sin, then you will be declared innocent. The “fruits of life” you speak of, are related to the rewards in heaven that you will receive. They have nothing to do with salvation. Because there is nothing we can do to obtain salvation it is a free gift. So if you have done great works because of your changed heart, then you will be rewarded but the two are separate issues.Hmm. But Paul certainly seems to be referring to the believers as saints and "having been made righteous" and all that. He couldn't have done that if they weren't actually righteous already.

I don't want to get too semantic about it, but IMO it makes a world of a difference how you see yourself. I think it's a tragedy that christians call themselves sinners. It only makes them sin even more.

hy do you think this? Remember Jesus’ earthly ministry. Who did He hang out with? What kinds of people did He surround Himself with? The people He chose as his disciples were considered scum and liars and generally untrustworthy by the rest of society. Prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen and shepherds, these were not upstanding members of society. But they are the people Jesus called friends and apostles. Jesus did not hang with the nobility, but He certainly could have as He was king of the Jews. He would have had every right to do so. He did not hang out with the Sadducees, the Pharisees or the kings of the earth or the scribes. Jesus said that sick people don’t need a doctor and that good people don’t need a savior. Jesus came to save the lost and wicked people. People like you and me. I think He’s been such a presence in your life, because you are exactly the kind of person He came to earth to save. You and I are the people Jesus wants to be with, He chose us, we did not choose Him. It’s also been said that if Jesus returned to earth today, the church would not recognize Him, because of the company He would keep. It really makes you think, doesn’t it?It does :)

However, I believe Jesus could mingle just as easily with the rich and mighty as with the poor and despised. It's just that the poor accepted him more readily.

Because I believe in a dual nature, I can’t agree with that. I will say the old me is not dead but just lying dormant, waiting for a moment of spiritual weakness from me so it can come to the surface.Ah, but as you know, scripture says that "we" died, so at least part of us must have died with Christ. What part, if not the old nature/the old spirit?

If the old you=your flesh, then it wasn't crucified with Christ, was it? Because your flesh is still alive and kicking.

No it doesn’t work. But this could have been the best thing to happen to Ted. Because now that his secret is out, now that he has been humbled and humiliated he can now come to God in honest heartfelt repentance and finally be saved.If you don't mind still using Haggard as an example, I'll say that I wish he could've been humble enough to share his destructive thoughts with someone before they grew out of proportion. I think many christians just long to be able to share their thoughts and secrets without being condemned. But when they can't, it's like you bury those thoughts in a humid cellar, allowing them to rot further and grow without attention.

I think that's why the Catholic church has had so many sexually perverted priests - their sexuality, which was natural and God-given, was confined to a dark prison, where it didn't die, but instead grew into a monster. That's one of the gravest dangers about legalism.

What higher standard is there than God’s own law? You will fail, but because you are in Jesus you will be declared on that day righteous.I think Jesus surpassed the law. He wasn't just righteous himself, he even forgave those who did wrong to him. The law doesn't demand that you love those who kill you.

Yes, I will fail. Therefore, God arranged it so that I've already died. The punishment was laid on him. So that we may have peace. God may declare me righteous on judgment day, but he declared me righteous this morning and the day before and 365 times last year too :)

His grace is new each morning, and it lasts all day. Yay!

I was dealing with that verse in context. When Jesus spoke those words, He had not yet died for our sin, so at the time those words were spoken they were true. Now of course things have changed.You're touching on something very important here, I believe. Even Jesus' own words must be seen in light of which side of the cross we are on. He even said that there was still more to teach, but they would have to wait until "the spokesperson"/"spirit of truth" came - and he/it (she?) came on pentecost day.

Zecryphon

11th November 2006, 01:29 AM