Where exactly did Jesus give permission to kill?

[marke]

I tell you, I've been reading some of these posts and they are really scarry. The assertions some people make are really not correct Christian teaching at all.

For example. In the OT the commandment came down "Do not kill". Same in the NT, but some people say it is OK to kill and torture.

Where exactly is that scripture? Where does Jesus give permission to kill? Any examples where Paul or others said to take up arms and do harm to their oppressors?
I've never found any. Perhaps those who support killing can lead us to the scripture that supports their position.

God Bless.

[RevKidd]

Saddam Deserves to die for what he did...

[noparty]

"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and his teachings as nonviolent are Christians."
-Gandhi

[marke]

RevKid:

You make my point. Thank you. Where did you find the New Testament scripture to support your assertion?

[RonnyRulz]

Saddam Deserves to die for what he did...
And you deserve to die for what you have done.

What makes you any different from Saddam in deserving death? Nothing. You are both equally deserving of death.

[twistedsketch]

Governments have the right to justly apply violence:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." - Romans 13:1-4

Also, Jesus never retracted Genesis 9:6 -

"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man."

[RonnyRulz]

Whoa bud, you're saying that we should submit to gov't authority, so gov't has the right to justly apply violence. That's wrong.

The way you are quoting that verse, it means that even if the gov't were to restrict Jesus and all forms of Christianity and ban Him and ban all Christianity, making it illegal, they have the right to do that.

Applying violence is just as bad as banning Christianity. And in all reality, if you apply violence, you ARE restricting Jesus, because Jesus is anti-violence.

You're using Man's Wisdom to interpret that scripture, not God's Love. Back up a step and go into prayer over those two verses, because they have a different meaning than what you are interpretting.

God's Love > Man's Wisdom
God's Bible > Man's Bible
God's Love > Gov't Authority
God's Love = Non-Violence
Non-Violence > Gov't Authority

No government can justify sin, regardless if it has authority or not. If God allows the gov't to have power to sin, then that's there, but Christians by no means are to submit themselves to believe that it's okay.

Allowing the gov't to commit violence is one thing, being a Christian submitted to avoid going to prison for your own sake is one thing, but saying it's okay for the gov't sin, that is another. Example: Allowing the Romans to murder innocent Christians because of their belief is one thing. Not rising up against them with the sword is being submitted. But saying "It's okay for the Romans to cook Christians in a stove." and "It's okay for the Romans to skin our brothers alive." is completely different. To submit is to not pick up a gun, point it at the cop, and say "No, YOU were driving under the influence: OF BEING A JERK! I'm not going to jail." To submit does not mean "It's not a sin because it's the gov't."

You act as if the gov't is justified to sin because God "gave it authority." Allowing sin is one thing, but justifying it to not be wrong is entirely different.

[twistedsketch]

Whoa bud, you're saying that we should submit to gov't authority, so gov't has the right to justly apply violence. That's wrong.

The way you are quoting that verse, it means that even if the gov't were to restrict Jesus and all forms of Christianity and ban Him and ban all Christianity, making it illegal, they have the right to do that.

Applying violence is just as bad as banning Christianity. And in all reality, if you apply violence, you ARE restricting Jesus, because Jesus is anti-violence.

You're using Man's Wisdom to interpret that scripture, not God's Love. Back up a step and go into prayer over those two verses, because they have a different meaning than what you are interpretting.

God's Love > Man's Wisdom
God's Bible > Man's Bible
God's Love > Gov't Authority
God's Love = Non-Violence
Non-Violence > Gov't Authority

No government can justify sin, regardless if it has authority or not. If God allows the gov't to have power to sin, then that's there, but Christians by no means are to submit themselves to believe that it's okay.

Allowing the gov't to commit violence is one thing, being a Christian submitted to avoid going to prison for your own sake is one thing, but saying it's okay for the gov't sin, that is another. Example: Allowing the Romans to murder innocent Christians because of their belief is one thing. Not rising up against them with the sword is being submitted. But saying "It's okay for the Romans to cook Christians in a stove." and "It's okay for the Romans to skin our brothers alive." is completely different. To submit is to not pick up a gun, point it at the cop, and say "No, YOU were driving under the influence: OF BEING A JERK! I'm not going to jail." To submit does not mean "It's not a sin because it's the gov't."

You act as if the gov't is justified to sin because God "gave it authority." Allowing sin is one thing, but justifying it to not be wrong is entirely different.

Funny thing about that is, Paul wrote that after the Emporer Nero took power and got started on the Christians. I'm not saying every violent action by a government is right. I said every JUST action. God put the sword in the hand of the authorities for a reason. It is to justly punish deserving criminals. Killing Christians for the heck of it certainly does not fall under just punishment. But if a Christian were to participate in an armed rebellion, Rome would have been right to execute him because he was involved in criminal activity. You're right on about the submission, but you need to remember what the verse itself is saying: That the authority bears the sword for a reason, that reason being to punish criminals; also that authorities are God's agents of wrath on this planet. If they are the agents of wrath, how can their violence against the criminal be sin? As long as they are using the sword JUSTLY, as Nero was not, it can't be sin because of their role.

[noparty]

Governments have the right to justly apply violence:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." - Romans 13:1-4

Not Jesus.

Also, Jesus never retracted Genesis 9:6 -

"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man."

There are several OT verses advocating murder. Again, not written by Jesus. I would suggest reading what Jesus has to say in Matthew 5 before you actually murder someone.

[jad123]

I tell you, I've been reading some of these posts and they are really scarry. The assertions some people make are really not correct Christian teaching at all.

For example. In the OT the commandment came down "Do not kill". Same in the NT, but some people say it is OK to kill and torture.

Where exactly is that scripture? Where does Jesus give permission to kill? Any examples where Paul or others said to take up arms and do harm to their oppressors?
I've never found any. Perhaps those who support killing can lead us to the scripture that supports their position.

God Bless.


So are you asking if it OK to commit murder or are you asking if it is OK to defend my wife and kids by force if necesary? Are you askingo if it is OK for the military to kill in a justifiable war? What exactly are you asking?

[twistedsketch]

Not Jesus.
There are several OT verses advocating murder. Again, not written by Jesus. I would suggest reading what Jesus has to say in Matthew 5 before you actually murder someone.
I wasn't sticking up for murder. When you're a state authority and you have to execute someone, that is not murder. Murder is when you hate and take revenge into your own hands.

Also, where you're coming from, you're saying we should cherry-pick the Scriptures, and that they contradict themselves. Just because none of the four Gospels record Jesus as saying something doesn't mean it is not the word of God. Paul wrote what he wrote, and Peter confirmed it (1 Peter 2:13-20, 4:15 and 2 Peter 3:15). As for the Old Testament commands for who deserves to be put to death, was God sinning when He commanded them? Was He being inconsistent? Or is there a fundamental difference between a just execution and cold-blooded murder? When you read the Bible, you've got to pick one of those three.

[marke]

Ok Jad123:

I'll bite. You wrote "So are you asking if it OK to commit murder or are you asking if it is OK to defend my wife and kids by force if necessary? Are you askingo if it is OK for the military to kill in a justifiable war? What exactly are you asking?"

Did Stephen defend his person by force? What was his example? Where is it you find the scripture that allows you to do so?

A justifiable war? Where is it you find the scripture that allows you to to participate and kill others in a "justifiable" war?

Perhaps you'll help me find this scripture allowing Christians to do these things. No one has pointed them out yet so so far it looks like people are making up their own scripture and calling it "gospel" which is very dangerous.

Love your scripture foot note.

If we claim to know Him, we should live, walk and act as He would.

That's the point of the question. Who would Jesus kill next? You (and many others, I'm not picking on you) assert you should be able to defend your family and join in wars. Where is it that Jesus or anyone else says this in the New Testament.

Are you following the teachings of Jesus or traditions of man?

God Bless.

[jad123]

Ok Jad123:

I'll bite. You wrote "So are you asking if it OK to commit murder or are you asking if it is OK to defend my wife and kids by force if necessary? Are you askingo if it is OK for the military to kill in a justifiable war? What exactly are you asking?"

Did Stephen defend his person by force? What was his example? Where is it you find the scripture that allows you to do so?

A justifiable war? Where is it you find the scripture that allows you to to participate and kill others in a "justifiable" war?

Perhaps you'll help me find this scripture allowing Christians to do these things. No one has pointed them out yet so so far it looks like people are making up their own scripture and calling it "gospel" which is very dangerous.

Love your scripture foot note.

If we claim to know Him, we should live, walk and act as He would.

That's the point of the question. Who would Jesus kill next? You (and many others, I'm not picking on you) assert you should be able to defend your family and join in wars. Where is it that Jesus or anyone else says this in the New Testament.

Are you following the teachings of Jesus or traditions of man?

God Bless.

Wasn't ryiing to get you to bite. Just wanted clarification on what was being asked. I will take some time to answer you question though and will post it shortly. As for your last question "Are you following the teachings of Jesus or traditions of man?" I get a big chuckle about that because that sums up modern day teaching.

[noparty]

I wasn't sticking up for murder. When you're a state authority and you have to execute someone, that is not murder. Murder is when you hate and take revenge into your own hands.

I disagree with your murder definition. There are lots of reasons people commit murder. I don't think it's limited to hate and revenge. As for state authority, how much authority does the state have? Does the state have the authority to pardon sin? If the state tells you to kill someone and you do it, is it really a sin? What if they tell you to lie? Steal? Torture? Rape? Blaspheme? Where is the line drawn?

Also, where you're coming from, you're saying we should cherry-pick the Scriptures, and that they contradict themselves. Just because none of the four Gospels record Jesus as saying something doesn't mean it is not the word of God. Paul wrote what he wrote, and Peter confirmed it (1 Peter 2:13-20, 4:15 and 2 Peter 3:15). As for the Old Testament commands for who deserves to be put to death, was God sinning when He commanded them? Was He being inconsistent? Or is there a fundamental difference between a just execution and cold-blooded murder? When you read the Bible, you've got to pick one of those three.

I believe Jesus fulfilled the OT law. Sometimes that fulfillment requires a change from the old covenant to the new. Jesus seems to put some hefty revisions on eye for an eye, for example. I'd say since this site is christianforums.com and not oldtestamentjewforums.com, we should view Jesus's teachings as the authority if there is a question. I would also say Jesus's teachings are more authoritative than Paul's. I'm pretty sure Paul would agree.

Obviously when Paul said we should obey the government, he wasn't talking about when the government contradicts the word of God. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to jail for disobeying his government. Again, we have to draw that line where Jesus's authority ends and state authority begins. Different people draw the line in different places.

[twistedsketch]

I disagree with your murder definition. There are lots of reasons people commit murder. I don't think it's limited to hate and revenge. As for state authority, how much authority does the state have? Does the state have the authority to pardon sin? If the state tells you to kill someone and you do it, is it really a sin? What if they tell you to lie? Steal? Torture? Rape? Blaspheme? Where is the line drawn?
The Old Testament has a criminal code, that's a fine place to start. Besides, when you read Matthew 5, murder is precisely what what I claimed it to be.


I believe Jesus fulfilled the OT law.
While this is true, it dodges the issue of whether execution is really murder or not. If execution is murder, then why did God command certain sinners to be put to death in the OT after saying, "You shall not murder?" If execution is not murder, then there is room for the state to apply it justly.


Sometimes that fulfillment requires a change from the old covenant to the new. Jesus seems to put some hefty revisions on eye for an eye, for example.
That wasn't a revision, though. The original "eye for an eye" was a guideline for judges. The Pharisees extended this "right" to the people, saying it's alright to take revenge so long as it is limited. Jesus was out to restore the spirit of the OT law when He preached that and the rest of the Sermon on the Mount. He wasn't canceling the Law when He preached that, He was restoring it from its perverted state (Mt 5:17-20).



I'd say since this site is christianforums.com and not oldtestamentjewforums.com, we should view Jesus's teachings as the authority if there is a question. I would also say Jesus's teachings are more authoritative than Paul's. I'm pretty sure Paul would agree.
Right, but Paul wasn't contradicting Jesus or the book of Romans would never have made the canon. There is no contradiction between Romans 13 and the Gospels.


Obviously when Paul said we should obey the government, he wasn't talking about when the government contradicts the word of God. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to jail for disobeying his government. Again, we have to draw that line where Jesus's authority ends and state authority begins. Different people draw the line in different places.
True, but when the government justly executes someone, that is not a contradiction to the word of God in either testament. The teaching on the death penalty is consistent throughout. Paul isn't saying it's OK for the government to persecute Christians or silence the Gospel. He's saying it's OK for them to punish thieves, murderers, and rebels and it is even permissible to use the death penalty to do so.

[jad123]

Matthew 8:10. "I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith." Jesus thus praised the extraordinary faith of the Roman centurion in Capernaum. Jesus did not oppose governments or their right to maintain armies, nor participation of the faithful in those armies.

Luke 22:36-38. "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Thus Jesus warned his disciples of perilous times to come. They would need defense and protection.

John 2:15. "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area...." Jesus violently drove the money changers from the outer court of the Temple. The Greek language implies that he used the whip on the money changers as well as on the sheep and oxen. Physical force can be applied with justice.

Hebrews 11. Military men are among those recognized as heroes of the faith NOT enemies against it.

Romans 12:17-19. "Do not repay anyone evil for evil... If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone... Do not take revenge...." Notice that Paul says, "if it is possible." Christians are to cultivate peace with everyone. Key words being if it is possible. Paul doesn’t say always.

Romans 13 Paul teaches that civil government is ordained by God and should be supported by Christians. Those in authority, Paul notes, do not bear the sword for nothing. "He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer"


Let the disagreement begin. :)

[noparty]

The Old Testament has a criminal code, that's a fine place to start. Besides, when you read Matthew 5, murder is precisely what what I claimed it to be.

I believe murder can be committed out of greed, such as killing someone to take what they have. Or to cover up other sins, such as David putting Uriah on the front lines. Or as an extortion method like the DC snipers. I'm not sure a murder is defined as such based on it's motives.

Agreed, state-mandated "executions" are commonplace in the Bible. You can take the stance that the OT gives the government the authority to carry those executions out and Paul says we should obey the government, so if the government tells us to support their executions, we should do so. That is definitely one way to look at it and I'm not saying that's invalid. I personally prefer the more direct "love your neighbor/enemies" approach that Jesus presented. If someone is in custody of the state and is not a threat to society, the killing of that person is an act of revenge. A "murder" as you defined it. For me to support that doesn't really seem like a loving act, regardless of what the state has the biblical authority to do.

[twistedsketch]

Agreed, state-mandated "executions" are commonplace in the Bible. You can take the stance that the OT gives the government the authority to carry those executions out and Paul says we should obey the government, so if the government tells us to support their executions, we should do so. That is definitely one way to look at it and I'm not saying that's invalid. I personally prefer the more direct "love your neighbor/enemies" approach that Jesus presented. If someone is in custody of the state and is not a threat to society, the killing of that person is an act of revenge. A "murder" as you defined it. For me to support that doesn't really seem like a loving act, regardless of what the state has the biblical authority to do.
Yet, the authorities are God's agents of wrath, so that can't be murder. It's their job.

[flyingsum0]

Just remeber to kill is easy, many of us have, but to forgive is hard...Jesus forgives us now and forever...that makes Him God.

[Jason of Iolkos]

And you deserve to die for what you have done.

What makes you any different from Saddam in deserving death? Nothing. You are both equally deserving of death.
Uhh...so RevKidd has slaughtered thousands of men and women?

Do you not know of what he did to the Kurds in Northern Iraq plus the multiple killings and torture throughout the general population of Iraq?

Let's be honest, there is a huge difference with RevKidd and Saddam.

[oliveplants]

Am restraining myself from joining the fight about fighting, but want to subscribe to thread.
:wave:

[Godslilgurlalways]

I tell you, I've been reading some of these posts and they are really scarry. The assertions some people make are really not correct Christian teaching at all.

For example. In the OT the commandment came down "Do not kill". Same in the NT, but some people say it is OK to kill and torture.

Where exactly is that scripture? Where does Jesus give permission to kill? Any examples where Paul or others said to take up arms and do harm to their oppressors?
I've never found any. Perhaps those who support killing can lead us to the scripture that supports their position.

God Bless.



Good post I know it mentions in the commandments about not killing and Jesus talking about if someone slap you to turn thew other cheek(I can probably most of the world, including me hasn't come to this yet.

The only thing is when is it okay if someone breaks into your house and starts fighting what do you do when they hit your child or your spouse, do you turn the other cheek, do you fight back and just try not to kill them.I can't asnwer this but would love to hearr for those who have it b/c I have always been a little confused about it.I personally would fight back but wouldn't want to kill the person.

This question has me wondering(I personally would be fighting back and probably praying at the same time:)

[jehovahjira]

see the devil is tricky here we are fighting over something so stupid the devil has to be rolling and laughing let me REMIND ALL OF YOU there is a GOD who has all knowledge!!!!!!!! yes even how to solve this dispute over killing OUR GOD is the SAME today as yesterday so i say this REMEMBER DAVID AND HOW GOD ACKNOWLEDGED HIM!!!!!!!!!! REMEMBER THIS KILLING AND MURDER ARE TWO DIFFRENT THINGS

[marke]

see the devil is tricky here we are fighting over something so stupid the devil has to be rolling and laughing let me REMIND ALL OF YOU there is a GOD who has all knowledge!!!!!!!! yes even how to solve this dispute over killing OUR GOD is the SAME today as yesterday so i say this REMEMBER DAVID AND HOW GOD ACKNOWLEDGED HIM!!!!!!!!!! REMEMBER THIS KILLING AND MURDER ARE TWO DIFFRENT THINGS
You seem to be confused young man. Stupid? Basic Christian morality stupid? Perhaps YOU can tell us where Jesus gives permission to kill? We would be grateful if you helped us clear this up.

Killing and murder are NOT to different things. You'll find the original commandment in Exo. 20:13. Get yourself a concordance and look up the word used in the original commandment. Then take this new found knowledge and share it with whomever fed you that nonsense so they may be helped too.

Further, the way to solve any scriptural dispute is with scripture. Opinions are dangerous to your soul if you lead someone astray.

God bless.

[marke]

Wow, all these posts and opinions and yet not a single verse of scripture where Jesus gives permission to kill.

So why are preachers and others saying it is OK? Seems to be wrong teaching if no one can come up with scripture allowing Christians to kill.

Going once, going twice...

Can we all agree? Christians are not allowed to kill? We've all given our gray matter a workout seeking justification to the question and none of us have been able to find scripture that even gives a hint that Jesus allows Christians to kill.

I asked all those who believe they can kill to show us the reason for their belief and none have come forward with scripture. There is a lot of wrong teaching going on out there and if we can all agree and stand together, perhaps we can put this wrong teaching to rest and save some souls from destroying their souls by following the traditions of man instead of the teachings of Jesus.

Do you agree? Or do we need to search the scriptures more? This would be a huge step forward to restoring truth to Pop Christianity.

Jesus envisioned one church of one mind. Can we all be of one mind on this one issue? Can we all go forward and tell our brothers and sisters what we have discovered and show them how to prove this teaching to themselves the same way we all did, by searching the scriptures?

I've noticed a lot of people who want to believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest (sounds like a Paul Simon song) and that's very damaging to the soul. If we start with this one issue and build upon that issue after issue perhaps we can restore the one body Jesus envisioned.

Are we in agreement? Thou shall not kill is still in force and nowhere does Jesus give permission to kill? Please say yes.

God Bless.

[marke]

Good post I know it mentions in the commandments about not killing and Jesus talking about if someone slap you to turn thew other cheek(I can probably most of the world, including me hasn't come to this yet.

The only thing is when is it okay if someone breaks into your house and starts fighting what do you do when they hit your child or your spouse, do you turn the other cheek, do you fight back and just try not to kill them.I can't asnwer this but would love to hearr for those who have it b/c I have always been a little confused about it.I personally would fight back but wouldn't want to kill the person.

This question has me wondering(I personally would be fighting back and probably praying at the same time:)
Do you agree God is in control?

If so, you have nothing to fear. This encounter with someone breaking into your house for example would be part of God's plan and I'm with you, it would be my human nature to fight back, but not seeking to kill.

The other option is to talk the attacker out of it. Do you recall the girl who was held hostage a few years back and testified to the attacker about Jesus and he set her free and turned himself in? It was all over the news for a week or so. God works in mysterious ways indeed.

Have you ever noticed something you though so bad at the moment, eventually turned into a blessing in disguise later on? God is always on your side and never gives you more than you can handle.

Take "Superman" for example. A terrible accident changed his life forever and yet look at all the good Chris Reeve did for those in his similar condition. He became a blessing and I have confidence you would too in a similar situation. Hopefully, God will challenge your faith less.

Be at peace. Your God is in control.

God Bless.

[RonnyRulz]

so if the government tells us to support their executions, we should do so.


YEA, THAT WAY WE CAN SEND THOSE SINNERS TO HELL WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!!!!!!

Screw letting them live so that they can receive the salvation of Jesus, they deserve to burn!!!!!!!!!

http://pokerandlife.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyone who approves of capital punishment is a hypocrite, a sinner, and not a Christian.
You know what Jesus thinks of those who support capital punishment?

If you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:15

Jesus took the death penalty so no one else would have to. And if you don't forgive murderers their sin, your Father will not forgive your sins.

And you know what happens to those whose sins aren't forgiven.

[jad123]

YEA, THAT WAY WE CAN SEND THOSE SINNERS TO HELL WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!!!!!!

Screw letting them live so that they can receive the salvation of Jesus, they deserve to burn!!!!!!!!!

http://pokerandlife.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyone who approves of capital punishment is a hypocrite, a sinner, and not a Christian.
You know what Jesus thinks of those who support capital punishment?

If you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:15

Jesus took the death penalty so no one else would have to. And if you don't forgive murderers their sin, your Father will not forgive your sins.

And you know what happens to those whose sins aren't forgiven.


So if I believe in Captial Punishment then I am not a Christian? That is a bold statement from a simple man and not God. How about this. Lets lay it all on the table and analyze your beliefs and doctrine so we can all hop on the judgement wagon and point out areas where you
go against the teaching of Christ. Let me know and we can come up with alist and go over it one by one my friend. I posted abut 8 different scriptures that deal with this topic. You answered none of them. As for captial punishment, forgiving someone of their sins and punishing someone for acrime are two different things.

[RonnyRulz]

If you forgive someone for their sins you don't have to punish them for the crime.

That would be like Jesus saying, "Your sins are forgiven, but you still have to spend eternity in hell."


So if I believe in Captial Punishment then I am not a Christian?


No, but what makes you a Christian or not is LOVE. And if you hate criminals, you have not love. But if you do Love, you forgive their sin.

What measures a Christian isn't if you believe in capital punishment or not, or your table and analysis. It's the LOVE you share. Anyone that is for capital punishment is against love, forgiveness, mercy, and compassion.

My beliefs and doctrine are all in love, so you can't "point our areas where I go against the teaching of Christ" because the teaching of Christ is LOVE. All my beliefs match up with LOVE. My acts may not, but I'm a sinner and don't follow my beliefs 100%, no one does.

Not loving is what makes you not a Christian. A Christian is judged solely on their love, and nothing else.

[jad123]

If you forgive someone for their sins you don't have to punish them for the crime.

That would be like Jesus saying, "Your sins are forgiven, but you still have to spend eternity in hell."



No, but what makes you a Christian or not is LOVE. And if you hate criminals, you have not love. But if you do Love, you forgive their sin.

What measures a Christian isn't if you believe in capital punishment or not, or your table and analysis. It's the LOVE you share. Anyone that is for capital punishment is against love, forgiveness, mercy, and compassion.

My beliefs and doctrine are all in love, so you can't "point our areas where I go against the teaching of Christ" because the teaching of Christ is LOVE. All my beliefs match up with LOVE. My acts may not, but I'm a sinner and don't follow my beliefs 100%, no one does.

Not loving is what makes you not a Christian. A Christian is judged solely on their love, and nothing else.

Forgiveness does NOT negate the need for punishment.
If my child does something wrong they are punished but also forgiven. God himself instituted captial punishment and speaks of it throughtout the OT. You can read this throughout Ezekiel, Numbers, and Leviticus. God gave the principle of capital punishment even before the institution of the Old Testament law. Genesis 9:6 says ""Whoever sheds man's blood by man his blood shall be shed..." If those who are sentenced to death for their crimes ask for forgiveness then we are told they will receive it but this does not mena their crimes go unpunished. Very simply capital punishment is never specifically removed or replaced in the Bible.

[RonnyRulz]

Forgiveness does NOT negate the need for punishment.


Well, cya in Hell then.

[jad123]

Well, cya in Hell then.

And you speak of hypocrites....

[RonnyRulz]

And you speak of hypocrites....
??????????????????

[jehovahjira]

killing = an order to kill or under authority to kill
murder = moses and david in plain terms, murder your own free will
JESUS taught love not the opposite of it as far as the government goes i'm not aside of them i'm in THE CHURCH declaring proclaiming that the day the church rises and the government bows to it!!! AND MY GOD HAS ALL POWER!!!!! why should i commit murder when HE CAN DEAL WITH THEM

[linssue55]

I tell you, I've been reading some of these posts and they are really scarry. The assertions some people make are really not correct Christian teaching at all.

For example. In the OT the commandment came down "Do not kill". Same in the NT, but some people say it is OK to kill and torture.

Where exactly is that scripture? Where does Jesus give permission to kill? Any examples where Paul or others said to take up arms and do harm to their oppressors?
I've never found any. Perhaps those who support killing can lead us to the scripture that supports their position.

God Bless.In the Original Hebrew......it is "Do not MURDER." Murder is Pre-Meditated. Killing is used to defend ourselves, property, family and country. TWO different things!

[marke]

In the Original Hebrew......it is "Do not MURDER." Murder is Pre-Meditated. Killing is used to defend ourselves, property, family and country. TWO different things!
So the concordance is wrong? My concordance says:

râtsach raw-tsakh' A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er). Further to that, I've read where the origional word not only means not to take a human life but if your inaction cause a person to be killed you are guilty too.

Would you please quote your source? My source is in any concordance you can look up easy.

God Bless.

[RonnyRulz]

Murder is Pre-Meditated. Killing is used to defend ourselves, property, family and country. TWO different things!


Yea, like the murder of innocent Iraqi citizens based on a pre-meditated plan to bomb them?

My property, family, and country, and especially my freedoms are only threatened by the government. The last time someone threatened my freedoms, property, family, and country, was back in WW2 with Hitler's rise to power. I apologize if I'm being too rash and assuming you support the war in Iraq, and if you don't I apologize, but from what I know, most Christians do because they are blindly following Bush because the "church leaders" are telling them to.

My people perish because of ignorance.

Killing is wrong. The Old Testament may have said "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not murder" but the ten commandments aren't important, significant, or have any relevance. Jesus gave us one commandment that is greater than all others: Love. To take someone else's life is to not act in love.

Did Jesus take the lives of the roman soldiers who crucified him, or the pharisees who hated him? Did he rise up from the dead with a sword in his hand to bring the fall of the Romans and the rise of Jerusalem? Nope, He died, rose, and brought the fall of Satan and the rise of a spiritual kingdom. With spritual warfare, spiritual war, spiritual bloodshed, the spiritual sword.

Peter, James, John, Paul, early chritians, they never killed anyone. Instead they were skinned alive, cooked alive, crucified upsidedown, and all manner of torture because they decided that it's in Love to die rather than to take the life of another.

I can imagine it now:

Christian: Jesus Loves you, but I love myself more! *bang*
Christian: It's all about love, but I don't want to die for love! *bang*
Christian: Spread the gospel, but don't try to persecute me! *bang*

Just make sure you bring enough ammo when you go to a 3rd world country to preach the gospel. When people come against you, you might have to defend yourself.

[marke]

And still... days after I started this thread, NOT A SINGLE PERSON has shown where Jesus gives Christians permission to kill.

Friends, what's the problem here. So many defend this position that a Christian can take a human life, but no one has produced a single line of scripture to back up their assertion.

SO... I ask again, are you following the teaching of Jesus or the traditions of man. Get it wrong and you don't win the prize according to New Testament scripture.

So how about it. Can we now join together and come to a consensus that this view that we can kill and our soul not pay for the transgression is nonsense? Please!

God Bless!

[jad123]

And still... days after I started this thread, NOT A SINGLE PERSON has shown where Jesus gives Christians permission to kill.

Friends, what's the problem here. So many defend this position that a Christian can take a human life, but no one has produced a single line of scripture to back up their assertion.

SO... I ask again, are you following the teaching of Jesus or the traditions of man. Get it wrong and you don't win the prize according to New Testament scripture.

So how about it. Can we now join together and come to a consensus that this view that we can kill and our soul not pay for the transgression is nonsense? Please!

God Bless!


How about this. I will give you all the scripture in the world you are looking for as soon as you can provide me with scripture that Jesus permits the following:

1. Use of the internet
2. Hair to be cut
3. Teeth to brushed
4. Drive a car
5. Have electricity in your home

No explicit instruction. Thre are many scriptures which if you look at my previous post reference killing. You have not even addressed the scriptures put forth to you.

[marke]

How about this. I will give you all the scripture in the world you are looking for as soon as you can provide me with scripture that Jesus permits the following:

1. Use of the internet
2. Hair to be cut
3. Teeth to brushed
4. Drive a car
5. Have electricity in your home

No explicit instruction. Thre are many scriptures which if you look at my previous post reference killing. You have not even addressed the scriptures put forth to you.
Why don't you just answer the question?

You claim to be a follower of the teachings of Christ Jesus. The question should be easy to answer if the question is found in Christian teaching. So where is it?

God Bless.

[RonnyRulz]

And still... days after I started this thread, NOT A SINGLE PERSON has shown where Jesus gives Christians permission to kill.

Friends, what's the problem here. So many defend this position that a Christian can take a human life, but no one has produced a single line of scripture to back up their assertion.

SO... I ask again, are you following the teaching of Jesus or the traditions of man. Get it wrong and you don't win the prize according to New Testament scripture.

So how about it. Can we now join together and come to a consensus that this view that we can kill and our soul not pay for the transgression is nonsense? Please!

God Bless!
Congrats on being intelligent!

People are too hard-hearted and stubborn in their ways. They will follow the traditions of men, even if you throw the truth in their face.

It's a fact that Christ's teachings were nonviolent. But to tell that to someone who loves violence more than they love Christ, it's just vain.

My people perish because of ignorance.

[RonnyRulz]

1. Use of the internet
2. Hair to be cut
3. Teeth to brushed
4. Drive a car
5. Have electricity in your home


That's ridiculous. None of those are even close to the same thing as taking away someone's life.

Life is the most precious thing we have. Toothbrushes and cars are nothing in comparison. What a feeble example to justify murder and the traditions of men.

[linssue55]

So the concordance is wrong? My concordance says:

râtsach raw-tsakh' A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er). Further to that, I've read where the origional word not only means not to take a human life but if your inaction cause a person to be killed you are guilty too.

Would you please quote your source? My source is in any concordance you can look up easy.

God Bless.The original Hebrew is>> ratsach= PREmeditation. Planning to take a life of another, someone you know. Killing is what I mentioned in my previous post.

Ex 20:13 (exegeted, systematic theology, hermenuetics)

13~~"You will not murder {ratsach - means to murder}."

[linssue55]

Yea, like the murder of innocent Iraqi citizens based on a pre-meditated plan to bomb them?

My property, family, and country, and especially my freedoms are only threatened by the government. The last time someone threatened my freedoms, property, family, and country, was back in WW2 with Hitler's rise to power. I apologize if I'm being too rash and assuming you support the war in Iraq, and if you don't I apologize, but from what I know, most Christians do because they are blindly following Bush because the "church leaders" are telling them to.

My people perish because of ignorance.

Killing is wrong. The Old Testament may have said "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not murder" but the ten commandments aren't important, significant, or have any relevance. Jesus gave us one commandment that is greater than all others: Love. To take someone else's life is to not act in love.

Did Jesus take the lives of the roman soldiers who crucified him, or the pharisees who hated him? Did he rise up from the dead with a sword in his hand to bring the fall of the Romans and the rise of Jerusalem? Nope, He died, rose, and brought the fall of Satan and the rise of a spiritual kingdom. With spritual warfare, spiritual war, spiritual bloodshed, the spiritual sword.

Peter, James, John, Paul, early chritians, they never killed anyone. Instead they were skinned alive, cooked alive, crucified upsidedown, and all manner of torture because they decided that it's in Love to die rather than to take the life of another.

I can imagine it now:

Christian: Jesus Loves you, but I love myself more! *bang*
Christian: It's all about love, but I don't want to die for love! *bang*
Christian: Spread the gospel, but don't try to persecute me! *bang*

Just make sure you bring enough ammo when you go to a 3rd world country to preach the gospel. When people come against you, you might have to defend yourself.I would have NO trouble shooting someone to defend myself, family or COUNTRY. It IS my Gid given and constitutional right. I support the President, you bet, AND so does the word of God, like it or not.

The hate you have in your soul, (you should use Agape love) only the Holy Spirit can relinguish.

[mont974x4]

kill and murder are two diferent things. The original word is that we are not to murder. That is, an individial act of one citizen against another.

This is far diferent than acting as a soldier or as a state authorized executioner. In these cases we are acting with the authority given by God to the gov'ts that he installs. Remember, God Himself commanded war when necessary. Also, in Romans 13 it is clear that war and capital punishment is why God gave governemnts the sword.

If you are truly anti-killing, I hope you aren't a hypocrite. No killing bugs, or animals whether for food or for disease control or personal protection. Do plants count?

[linssue55]

not a sinlge PERSON has shown where Jesus gives Christians permission to kill.



God Bless!Then I suggest you read the book of Numbers, The Assyrian Crisis, Exodus etc..

[Harlan Norris]

I tell you, I've been reading some of these posts and they are really scarry. The assertions some people make are really not correct Christian teaching at all.

For example. In the OT the commandment came down "Do not kill". Same in the NT, but some people say it is OK to kill and torture.

Where exactly is that scripture? Where does Jesus give permission to kill? Any examples where Paul or others said to take up arms and do harm to their oppressors?
I've never found any. Perhaps those who support killing can lead us to the scripture that supports their position.

God Bless.
There is no scripture that allows one to kill another in the New Testament.

[mont974x4]

There is no scripture that allows one to kill another in the New Testament.

True, there is only a repeat of the commandment against murder.

There is nothing against being a soldier, or any other servant of a nation. There is nothing against a nation waging war or capital punishment either.

[mont974x4]

That's ridiculous. None of those are even close to the same thing as taking away someone's life.

Life is the most precious thing we have. Toothbrushes and cars are nothing in comparison. What a feeble example to justify murder and the traditions of men.

Right, life is so precious that God tells us that when someone commits murder only the offenders blood can repay the innocent blood. This is also why a government must be ready and willing to wage war to protect its citizens.

[noparty]

There is nothing against being a soldier, or any other servant of a nation. There is nothing against a nation waging war or capital punishment either.

Would you say Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was biblically mandated? Or his execution of Sunni leaders? Gassing of the Kurds?

[jad123]

That's ridiculous. None of those are even close to the same thing as taking away someone's life.

Life is the most precious thing we have. Toothbrushes and cars are nothing in comparison. What a feeble example to justify murder and the traditions of men.

It was an example of how ridiculous your feeble attempts are to say that military service, police service, etc. is a sin. The Bible is full of examples that you choose to ignore.

[mont974x4]

Would you say Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was biblically mandated? Or his execution of Sunni leaders? Gassing of the Kurds?

In a sense, yes, it is.
Remember God places all people in authority...not just the godly and He uses them as He wills. On more than one occassion it has been through war. Likewise, He has used godly men through war to achieve His plan.


Look at biblical examples of when God sent ungodly nations to war against Isreal for punishment. Later, He would also send Isreal back against them to punish them.

Also, we have shown that there is no place in the Bible OT or NT that says a beleiver can not or should not be in those positions.


Think about this, the military is a pretty good cross section of our society as a whole. That means that there are ungodly men in the military and yes some very evil people. Christians serving with them may be how God chooses to reach them. What better way to bring light into war than to have Christians there?

[marke]

In a sense, yes, it is.
Remember God places all people in authority...not just the godly and He uses them as He wills. On more than one occassion it has been through war. Likewise, He has used godly men through war to achieve His plan.


Look at biblical examples of when God sent ungodly nations to war against Isreal for punishment. Later, He would also send Isreal back against them to punish them.

Also, we have shown that there is no place in the Bible OT or NT that says a beleiver can not or should not be in those positions.


Think about this, the military is a pretty good cross section of our society as a whole. That means that there are ungodly men in the military and yes some very evil people. Christians serving with them may be how God chooses to reach them. What better way to bring light into war than to have Christians there?
Maybe serving as a cook or grave digger or a thousand other jobs that don't require you to take a life.

The whole flavor of the NT is against doing things to others you would not like have done to you.

You are justifying your own beliefs without any basis in scripture. You still haven't provided ANY scripture to help us grow toward your point of view and argue and argue your point.

We are followers of Jesus. Not fairy tales. You say there is nothing to say don't go into these professions and yet many on this board would go nuts if someone said they wanted to be a porn star. Using your logic, the NT doesn't specifically mention this either so is it OK? I think a different profession would be better.

Sill waiting for your scripture to substantiate your beliefs you are forcing on everyone.

God Bless.

[marke]

I would have NO trouble shooting someone to defend myself, family or COUNTRY. It IS my Gid given and constitutional right. I support the President, you bet, AND so does the word of God, like it or not.

The hate you have in your soul, (you should use Agape love) only the Holy Spirit can relinguish.
Greetings. I see you've joined in the discussion.

Perhaps you can show us ANYWHERE Jesus gives permission to kill.

I'll look forward to your enlightenment. So far, it seems more people want to hold on to their belief than follow the teachings of Jesus. Perhaps you'll show us the passage. I'd settle for a one liner at this point.

God Bless.

[noparty]

I believe Mont is referring primarily to Romans 13.

What is the definition of "authority"? Is Bin Laden an authority that should be submitted to or is it just leaders of geographical areas? What if I buy an island and declare myself king? Does that give me the biblical authority to kill Americans if I want?

[mont974x4]

The only thing wrong with being a porn star is the sexual sin issue. There is no sin in being a soldier.


Since you are the one demanding it is a sin, I place the burden of proof solely on you. I maintain that it is a personal choice, either way, and we shouldn't push our views on the other one and say they are sinning.

[linssue55]

Greetings. I see you've joined in the discussion.

Perhaps you can show us ANYWHERE Jesus gives permission to kill.

I'll look forward to your enlightenment. So far, it seems more people want to hold on to their belief than follow the teachings of Jesus. Perhaps you'll show us the passage. I'd settle for a one liner at this point.

God Bless.Read my post #46.

[marke]

Then I suggest you read the book of Numbers, The Assyrian Crisis, Exodus etc..
Sorry, Jesus didn't exist during the time of the OT and when he came into the world He brought a new set of rules. You may have heard, but NOW I say.

We are not Jews, we are Christians living under a new arrangement where the killing stopped and the kingdom of Heaven began.

But that's not the question here. The question is "Where did Jesus give permission to kill?" This should be easy since so many, including yourself defend this opinion.

It's important. If you and other here can't find your assertion in scripture, then it must be a fabrication or fable you are following and not the teachings of Christ Jesus. Correct?

If you and others are following and perpetrating one fairy tale which is contrary to the teachings of Christ Jesus, how many more misguided concepts are people following?

The NT warns about being led astray by reading the OT and I can see why. The OT was a blood bath and the NT is a blessing to humanity. You find salvation following the teachings of Jesus, not the stories of the Jews.

Still waiting for your scripture from Jesus.

God Bless.

[marke]

It was an example of how ridiculous your feeble attempts are to say that military service, police service, etc. is a sin. The Bible is full of examples that you choose to ignore.
Killing is the sin. Not the profession. You could be a grave digger for the military (popular now) and serve honorably, a dispatcher for the the front line police or any number of jobs, but nowhere does Jesus give permission to take another human life. This is your choice to go contrary to scripture, if you can't find scripture to back your assertion, your belief is wrong. End of story.

Tons of scripture right from the mouth of Jesus in all four gospels dispell your position and still you want to believe what you want to believe.

This is Christianity 101. The most basic of basic teaching. If you don't want to follow the teaching, why do you want to call yourself a Christian?

Jesus wants you as a follower, but on HIS terms, not yours. We are supposed to help each other find the way which is why I asked the question without an answer. To help you come to the realization that you may have been led astray.

I'm just trying to point the way to salvation and salvation doesn't, according to NT scripture, happen for those who want to believe what they want to believe. The teachings are very clear on this. Follow the rules or lose the prize. You don't get to make up the rules either.

Please think on this. If the scripture CAN'T be found in the whole NT and the scripture that IS contained in the NT speaks specifically against the taking a human life, how can this belief you are holding so tightly onto be Christian teaching?

God Bless.

[RonnyRulz]

There is nothing against being a soldier, or any other servant of a nation. There is nothing against a nation waging war or capital punishment either.

There isn't? I swear that there's about a million. But if you were to quote them, you'd be considered taking scripture "out of context" or not understanding the "true meaning" Bah, it's pointless to quote scripture to close-minded people who love violence.

One thing I will say though: If Christians opposed war, killing, capital punishment, and anything that takes the life of another, then people would see Christianity really is different from every other religion. They'd be drawn to Christianity, and there would be a massive growth.

Simply because when you say "It's all about Love" and then you proceed to take someone's life, they deem you a hypocrite. Because that's what you are. "Jesus came to give life. My rifle is here to take it away." That shows your christianity to be hypocrisy, and not the kind of hypocrisy where it's "All men are hypocrites, we are just sinners who love Jesus." but the kind of hypocrisy that says "We love Jesus, but don't like his nonviolent teachings." If you truly knew God, you'd hate violence.

Just like Ghandi always said,
"The only people on earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians".

Christians can keep their hypocrisy, I for one will oppose war, capital punishment, and violence. Why? Because I follow Jesus's teachings, His commandments, and I know and love God and others. It's all about Love. Make love, not war.

[RonnyRulz]

Please think on this. If the scripture CAN'T be found in the whole NT and the scripture that IS contained in the NT speaks specifically against the taking a human life, how can this belief you are holding so tightly onto be Christian teaching?
Because they serve a different God. They serve the anti-christ, the one whom they claim is Jesus but has no love.

Their picture of Christianity is Jesus wrapped in the american flag, with the Old Testament in the left hand, a rifle in the right, and dead deer corpses on the floor. With a big huge smile saying "I Love Prez Bush!"

The Right To Bear Arms > Command To Love
War > Love
Republicanism > Love
Poor = Suck

[RonnyRulz]

Killing is the sin. Not the profession. You could be a grave digger for the military (popular now) and serve honorably, a dispatcher for the the front line police or any number of jobs, but nowhere does Jesus give permission to take another human life. This is your choice to go contrary to scripture, if you can't find scripture to back your assertion, your belief is wrong. End of story.

Tons of scripture right from the mouth of Jesus in all four gospels dispell your position and still you want to believe what you want to believe.

This is Christianity 101. The most basic of basic teaching. If you don't want to follow the teaching, why do you want to call yourself a Christian?

Jesus wants you as a follower, but on HIS terms, not yours. We are supposed to help each other find the way which is why I asked the question without an answer. To help you come to the realization that you may have been led astray.

I'm just trying to point the way to salvation and salvation doesn't, according to NT scripture, happen for those who want to believe what they want to believe. The teachings are very clear on this. Follow the rules or lose the prize. You don't get to make up the rules either.

Please think on this. If the scripture CAN'T be found in the whole NT and the scripture that IS contained in the NT speaks specifically against the taking a human life, how can this belief you are holding so tightly onto be Christian teaching?


The Truth is Spoken. Well said.
Taking lives = wrong.

[marke]

The original Hebrew is>> ratsach= PREmeditation. Planning to take a life of another, someone you know. Killing is what I mentioned in my previous post.

Ex 20:13 (exegeted, systematic theology, hermenuetics)


13~~"You will not murder {ratsach - means to murder}."

Thank you very much for quoting your source. No wonder we are messed up. Our sources are in conflict and we are both right in our respective references!

I googled the word ratsach and followed the first link. I thought this was interesting.

"Taken together, we can discern a simple definition of ratsach: It refers to any killing that is done in the manner of a predatory animal -- which means either 1) as an angry reaction to stimulus; or 2) lying in wait, as one waits for prey."

Wow. Kind of sounds like those who are engaged in war which so many are adamantly contending is justified killing are the ones in the wrong. A grave digger job is looking real good now.

Let's quit playing word games. In all three explanations people die who would rather have lived longer lives. This is in violation of the teaching because you would not like them to do to you (end your life) as you are planning to do to them (end their lives). Murder or not the result is the same.

Jesus is all about mercy and love. Come to Jesus. Repent of your opinions which can't be found in scripture. The NT is the key to salvation. Let us try and find common ground here, on this issue, and then maybe another.

God Bless.

[RonnyRulz]

Jesus is all about mercy and love. Come to Jesus. Repent of your opinions which can't be found in scripture. The NT is the key to salvation. Let us try and find common ground here, on this issue and then maybe another.


TRUTH!!!!!!!

[marke]

The only thing wrong with being a porn star is the sexual sin issue. There is no sin in being a soldier.


Since you are the one demanding it is a sin, I place the burden of proof solely on you. I maintain that it is a personal choice, either way, and we shouldn't push our views on the other one and say they are sinning.
You challenged me as did other posters. Thank you.

This is what I found on the first site when I googled the word ratsach.

"Taken together, we can discern a simple definition of ratsach: It refers to any killing that is done in the manner of a predatory animal -- which means either 1) as an angry reaction to stimulus; or 2) lying in wait, as one waits for prey.

Sounds like someone engaged in war. What did you say your job was? That grave digger job is looking kind of good right now isn't it.

I'm not trying to push my views on you. This is solid Christian teaching. You asked. I found for you. I didn't write the book. This subject has been up for dispute for days now and there is simply no scripture to substanciate your opinion. I'm trying to help you brother. Not all are going to reach heaven. I'm hoping you will and your chances increase once you stop resisting correction.

God Bless.

[Harlan Norris]

True, there is only a repeat of the commandment against murder.

There is nothing against being a soldier, or any other servant of a nation. There is nothing against a nation waging war or capital punishment either.
Well, there is this,Luke 3:14, And the soldiers likewise demended of him,saying,And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, Neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.....This is the people who are listening to John the Baptists witness ,and call to repentance. The death penalty stands. However, we Christians, are not to judge, lest we be judged. I was released from jury duty in a capitol case because I told the judge and defense attourney,that I would not vote the death penalty,even if the defendant was found guilty,for this reason. In Co. the jury decides guilt and decides whether or not the defendant must die. But, since in some states the judge pronounces sentance,not the jury,in that state I would serve.

[jad123]

Killing is the sin. Not the profession. You could be a grave digger for the military (popular now) and serve honorably, a dispatcher for the the front line police or any number of jobs, but nowhere does Jesus give permission to take another human life. This is your choice to go contrary to scripture, if you can't find scripture to back your assertion, your belief is wrong. End of story.

Tons of scripture right from the mouth of Jesus in all four gospels dispell your position and still you want to believe what you want to believe.

This is Christianity 101. The most basic of basic teaching. If you don't want to follow the teaching, why do you want to call yourself a Christian?

Jesus wants you as a follower, but on HIS terms, not yours. We are supposed to help each other find the way which is why I asked the question without an answer. To help you come to the realization that you may have been led astray.

I'm just trying to point the way to salvation and salvation doesn't, according to NT scripture, happen for those who want to believe what they want to believe. The teachings are very clear on this. Follow the rules or lose the prize. You don't get to make up the rules either.

Please think on this. If the scripture CAN'T be found in the whole NT and the scripture that IS contained in the NT speaks specifically against the taking a human life, how can this belief you are holding so tightly onto be Christian teaching?

God Bless.

You my friend are blind. Humble yourself and read the many NT and OT scriptures that have been posted. You have failed to address the scriptures posted and to properly look at the ones that you use.

[jad123]

There isn't? I swear that there's about a million. But if you were to quote them, you'd be considered taking scripture "out of context" or not understanding the "true meaning" Bah, it's pointless to quote scripture to close-minded people who love violence.

One thing I will say though: If Christians opposed war, killing, capital punishment, and anything that takes the life of another, then people would see Christianity really is different from every other religion. They'd be drawn to Christianity, and there would be a massive growth.

Simply because when you say "It's all about Love" and then you proceed to take someone's life, they deem you a hypocrite. Because that's what you are. "Jesus came to give life. My rifle is here to take it away." That shows your christianity to be hypocrisy, and not the kind of hypocrisy where it's "All men are hypocrites, we are just sinners who love Jesus." but the kind of hypocrisy that says "We love Jesus, but don't like his nonviolent teachings." If you truly knew God, you'd hate violence.

Just like Ghandi always said,
"The only people on earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians".

Christians can keep their hypocrisy, I for one will oppose war, capital punishment, and violence. Why? Because I follow Jesus's teachings, His commandments, and I know and love God and others. It's all about Love. Make love, not war.

I beleive I offered this to you earlier. You keep saying that YOU follow His commandments. Lets take some time and on another thread to evaluate that. I am sure we will it is not true.

[jad123]

[quote=RonnyRulz;28778207]
Christians can keep their hypocrisy, I for one will oppose war, capital punishment, and violence. quote]

I think it is becoming clear now. You say Christians can keep their Hypocrisy. Are you even Christian?

[linssue55]

God orders killing......

Ezek. 9:5] And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.

[Num. 31:1] And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

Please (as well as chapter 31) read all of chapter (22-)25, which is the reason and background of chapter 31. In chapter 25 we read how (the Moabites and) Midianites seduce Israel to idolatery (worship of other gods) of the worst kind, mixed with adultery (as the means of the seduction). This is scheme of the Moabites and Midianites after their plan to curse Israel through Baalam fails [ch. 22-24]. Note also, that God himself strikes Israel for it with a plague in which 24,000 in Israel die [25:9]. God is not partial. Sin will be punished, and will FIRST be punished in his own people [lots of references to that all through the Bible, ask me if you need more].


Second, it is on the explicit command of the Lord to Moses. The Israelites have not dreamed this up themselves. It was not their "idea" to go to war. Interesting observation for later: In the end among the spoils are 32,000 girls/women who have never slept with a man [i.e. have been innocent of this seduction to idolatery by offering sex]. What does that say about the number of men they fought against? 32,000 virgin women usually have brothers and fathers in military age. 50,000 might not be unrealistic [though I am speculating here]. Now the interesting bit: Moses after instructed by God, sends only 12 x 1,000 into battle, i.e. a "small" army against a big enemy. The meaning of that will come later.

Also [verse 2], Moses who is asked to announce this command, will have no part of the spoil. This is his last act as leader of Israel, after it (as God told him) he will die.

I don't know to say much more here. Main point is: It is a definite command of God, it is a punishment of the LORD to the evil of the Midianites [after the Israelites have already been punished in chapter 25], and it is "the Lord's battle", what is especially to be seen in verse 49. It was not a "normal, human battle".
In comparison with what comes next, one might remark that the Midianites in a certain sense had "not been on the Lord's program" of punishment. They have forced themselves into it by their attempt to stand against God plan of leading his people Israel into the land he had promised them. Therefore the "procedures" are a bit different than all the way through Joshua and as announced by Moses before they even enter the land.
[Josh 6:16] Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city (of the Canaanites).. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are c consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord. The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.

Principle: God's goodness wants to lead us to repentance. [Romans 2:4] But where people consistently resist God, judgement will come [Rom 2:5, both in the day of Judgement as well as in this world.]

[linssue55]

Thank you very much for quoting your source. No wonder we are messed up. Our sources are in conflict and we are both right in our respective references!

I googled the word ratsach and followed the first link. I thought this was interesting.

"Taken together, we can discern a simple definition of ratsach: It refers to any killing that is done in the manner of a predatory animal -- which means either 1) as an angry reaction to stimulus; or 2) lying in wait, as one waits for prey."

Wow. Kind of sounds like those who are engaged in war which so many are adamantly contending is justified killing are the ones in the wrong. A grave digger job is looking real good now.

Let's quit playing word games. In all three explanations people die who would rather have lived longer lives. This is in violation of the teaching because you would not like them to do to you (end your life) as you are planning to do to them (end their lives). Murder or not the result is the same.

Jesus is all about mercy and love. Come to Jesus. Repent of your opinions which can't be found in scripture. The NT is the key to salvation. Let us try and find common ground here, on this issue, and then maybe another.

God Bless.Read post #70.

[linssue55]

Sorry, Jesus didn't exist during the time of the OT and when he came into the world He brought a new set of rules. You may have heard, but NOW I say.

We are not Jews, we are Christians living under a new arrangement where the killing stopped and the kingdom of Heaven began.

But that's not the question here. The question is "Where did Jesus give permission to kill?" This should be easy since so many, including yourself defend this opinion.

It's important. If you and other here can't find your assertion in scripture, then it must be a fabrication or fable you are following and not the teachings of Christ Jesus. Correct?

If you and others are following and perpetrating one fairy tale which is contrary to the teachings of Christ Jesus, how many more misguided concepts are people following?

The NT warns about being led astray by reading the OT and I can see why. The OT was a blood bath and the NT is a blessing to humanity. You find salvation following the teachings of Jesus, not the stories of the Jews.

Still waiting for your scripture from Jesus.

God Bless.Read post #70.

[mont974x4]

Jesus most certainly did exist in the OT, in fact He has always existed.

All Scripture is necessary, not just the NT.


If we can't agree on the basics, nothing else matters.

[RonnyRulz]

If we can't agree on the basics, nothing else matters.

That's the truest thing said here in this thread. And that's where the problem lies. Those who agree that God is Love, and those who disagree.

Those who know God is Love know also that taking the life of another is an abomination, regardless of any "justification". Those who disagree on that basic principle believe in killing.

[mont974x4]

Think about God's love and His being just...the whole nature of both, not just a limited idealistic version of them.


I understand where people have issues. It is hard for a lot of people to come to terms with the fact that God, who is love and who is absolutely just, does endorse, and even at times commands, war and capital punishment.

I would suggest stepping away from these individual issues and really spend some time in prayer while considering the entire nature of God, who He is, and what lengths He will go to in order to save His children.

[noparty]

While I support what my brother, Jay, said above, I think it's important to remember our individual roles as children of God and our collective role as the body of Christ. If our standards and morals mesh with those of the government, by all means, we should work together to accomplish our goals. If our standards and morals conflict with those of the government, then it's time for us to decide which master we serve.

[mont974x4]

In that case, I believe it's important to look at civil disobedience in the Bible...it should not happen unless we are being forced to disobey God. That isn't the case here, yet.

[noparty]

In that case, I believe it's important to look at civil disobedience in the Bible...it should not happen unless we are being forced to disobey God. That isn't the case here, yet.

Agreed, but I wasn't thinking of civil disobedience. I was thinking of not supporting the actions of a govenrmental body when you feel those actions are in opposition to your faith.

[mont974x4]

Agreed, but I wasn't thinking of civil disobedience. I was thinking of not supporting the actions of a govenrmental body when you feel those actions are in opposition to your faith.
ahhh..which is why I vote against democrats and liberal republicans.

Well, if you advocate not paying taxes because they fund abortions...it's civil disobedience and wrong. If you advocate not paying taxes because they fund war and capital punishment...you're wrong. If you break the law in order to protest...you're wrong.


Still, back on topic, nothing in Scripture commands us to oppose war or capital punishment or to not involve ourselves in them. You are, of course, free to choose to not get involved in them. However, you are not free to tell others they are worng for getting involved. Likewise, I would be wrong to force you to be involved in them.

[noparty]

ahhh..which is why I vote against democrats and liberal republicans.

Well, if you advocate not paying taxes because they fund abortions...it's civil disobedience and wrong. If you advocate not paying taxes because they fund war and capital punishment...you're wrong. If you break the law in order to protest...you're wrong.


Still, back on topic, nothing in Scripture commands us to oppose war or capital punishment or to not involve ourselves in them. You are, of course, free to choose to not get involved in them. However, you are not free to tell others they are worng for getting involved. Likewise, I would be wrong to force you to be involved in them.

I thought for a long time about how I can make the following paragraph not sound like an attack on conservative Christianity. It is not intended as an attack, but simply as an observation. I could not find a way to express my point of view in a way that was guaranteed to not offend, so I apologize in advance.

Conservative Christians over the past several decades have traditionally used government as a loophole for sin. The claim is that Jesus's teachings were only applicable on an individual level and groups of people such as governments are exempt from the teachings of Jesus. It's a free pass and there's nothing God can do about it. In my opinion, if noparty sins, noparty is accountable. If noparty and mont974x4 conspire together to sin, we are both accountable. Add a 3rd person...4th, 5th, 6th...1,000,000th. At what point is the sin no longer a sin?

Christianity is not a prime-time court drama. We are not lawyers looking for loopholes and technicalities to justify our own selfish desires and aggressive tendencies. No matter what verse we manage to prooftext, God will know the truth in our hearts on the day of judgement. You can believe that we are called to hate, kill, and maim despite the teachings of Jesus, or you can believe that we are called to love, respect, and honor in accordance with the teachings of Jesus.

I challenge all of us to abandon our Johnnie Cochran Christianity and get back to the basics. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself...democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, Christian or non-Christian, black or white, soldier or insurgent.

[linssue55]

I tell you, I've been reading some of these posts and they are really scarry. The assertions some people make are really not correct Christian teaching at all.

For example. In the OT the commandment came down "Do not kill". Same in the NT, but some people say it is OK to kill and torture.

Where exactly is that scripture? Where does Jesus give permission to kill? Any examples where Paul or others said to take up arms and do harm to their oppressors?
I've never found any. Perhaps those who support killing can lead us to the scripture that supports their position.

God Bless.


Well? In my post #70 I proved where Jesus wanted us to kill, now what do you have to say?? I have more verses also! Now can you finally admit from that the WORD say's is correct?, OR is your PERSONAL oppinions? going to over rule the perfect word of the scripture?

"WE MUST decrease, HE MUST increase." This is an ORDER from the word of God. For your spiritual sake (your soul), I do hope you head it.

[RonnyRulz]

God orders killing......

Ezek. 9:5] And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.

[Num. 31:1] And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

Please (as well as chapter 31) read all of chapter (22-)25, which is the reason and background of chapter 31. In chapter 25 we read how (the Moabites and) Midianites seduce Israel to idolatery (worship of other gods) of the worst kind, mixed with adultery (as the means of the seduction). This is scheme of the Moabites and Midianites after their plan to curse Israel through Baalam fails [ch. 22-24]. Note also, that God himself strikes Israel for it with a plague in which 24,000 in Israel die [25:9]. God is not partial. Sin will be punished, and will FIRST be punished in his own people [lots of references to that all through the Bible, ask me if you need more].


Second, it is on the explicit command of the Lord to Moses. The Israelites have not dreamed this up themselves. It was not their "idea" to go to war. Interesting observation for later: In the end among the spoils are 32,000 girls/women who have never slept with a man [i.e. have been innocent of this seduction to idolatery by offering sex]. What does that say about the number of men they fought against? 32,000 virgin women usually have brothers and fathers in military age. 50,000 might not be unrealistic [though I am speculating here]. Now the interesting bit: Moses after instructed by God, sends only 12 x 1,000 into battle, i.e. a "small" army against a big enemy. The meaning of that will come later.

Also [verse 2], Moses who is asked to announce this command, will have no part of the spoil. This is his last act as leader of Israel, after it (as God told him) he will die.

I don't know to say much more here. Main point is: It is a definite command of God, it is a punishment of the LORD to the evil of the Midianites [after the Israelites have already been punished in chapter 25], and it is "the Lord's battle", what is especially to be seen in verse 49. It was not a "normal, human battle".
In comparison with what comes next, one might remark that the Midianites in a certain sense had "not been on the Lord's program" of punishment. They have forced themselves into it by their attempt to stand against God plan of leading his people Israel into the land he had promised them. Therefore the "procedures" are a bit different than all the way through Joshua and as announced by Moses before they even enter the land.
[Josh 6:16] Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city (of the Canaanites).. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are c consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord. The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.

Principle: God's goodness wants to lead us to repentance. [Romans 2:4] But where people consistently resist God, judgement will come [Rom 2:5, both in the day of Judgement as well as in this world.]
Your scripture doesn't prove what you are claiming it proves.

You say it proves we are allowed to go to war and to kill. WRONG.

If you noticed, it always says "And the Lord said,"

There's a big difference between "And the Lord said," and "And then President Bush said,"

Bush along with every man, is NOT God. Killing is a sin, plain and simple. If God says to kill, it's not a sin. But that's God's place. Life, judgement, that's all in God's hands, not man's.

What you are quoting is that God has authority and righteousness to kill. What you are saying is that man is God.

Man isn't God. And I can guarantee you, President Bush, nor any president ever for that matter, talks to God. God neither commands them to go to war, nor does he think it's okay to take the life of another.

It's one thing to say "And God said, "Go to war." it's another thing to say "I am God, we're going to war."

Your point is that man, the government is God.
This isn't true. This is the biggest political flaw in christianity today. Christians think that the Gov't has all the authority God has. The government isn't God, nor will it ever be, nor is any man, nor will any man ever be.

Your scripture only proves that you give man, the president, government, the label of God. Man is not God, not can man justify his sin.

Stop justifying your sin. Your heart loves violence.
Repent, for the Kingdom of Love is at hand.

[mont974x4]

I thought for a long time about how I can make the following paragraph not sound like an attack on conservative Christianity. It is not intended as an attack, but simply as an observation. I could not find a way to express my point of view in a way that was guaranteed to not offend, so I apologize in advance.

Conservative Christians over the past several decades have traditionally used government as a loophole for sin. The claim is that Jesus's teachings were only applicable on an individual level and groups of people such as governments are exempt from the teachings of Jesus. It's a free pass and there's nothing God can do about it. In my opinion, if noparty sins, noparty is accountable. If noparty and mont974x4 conspire together to sin, we are both accountable. Add a 3rd person...4th, 5th, 6th...1,000,000th. At what point is the sin no longer a sin?

Christianity is not a prime-time court drama. We are not lawyers looking for loopholes and technicalities to justify our own selfish desires and aggressive tendencies. No matter what verse we manage to prooftext, God will know the truth in our hearts on the day of judgement. You can believe that we are called to hate, kill, and maim despite the teachings of Jesus, or you can believe that we are called to love, respect, and honor in accordance with the teachings of Jesus.

I challenge all of us to abandon our Johnnie Cochran Christianity and get back to the basics. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself...democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, Christian or non-Christian, black or white, soldier or insurgent.
I appreciate your disclaimer. Thanks.


I disagree with your premise that individual teachings apply to groups in the same way. Scripture clearly diferentiates. None of us are saying that as an individual we are free to murder. Likewise, I am not free to exact revenge/vigilantism. However, God gave us governments in order to protect the peope and to exact justice. This is done through war and capital punishment.


Does anyone see prisons in the OT or NT other than those in foriegn nations or foriegn control? I haven't found any reference to an Isrealite prison. Either fines/resitution were paid, or the person was put to death.

If someone has an example of an Isrealite prison in Scripture, please share it with us. Remember, the cities of refuge were not used as prisons, but a place to protect the accused from vigilante justice.


The Bible is clear, there is a time for war and there is a time for capital punishment.

[RonnyRulz]

Think about God's love and His being just...the whole nature of both, not just a limited idealistic version of them.


I understand where people have issues. It is hard for a lot of people to come to terms with the fact that God, who is love and who is absolutely just, does endorse, and even at times commands, war and capital punishment.

I would suggest stepping away from these individual issues and really spend some time in prayer while considering the entire nature of God, who He is, and what lengths He will go to in order to save His children.
God is a God of Justice, yes, but only once.

God was just only once. He doesn't punish sin, nor does he believe in capital punishment, war, or killing.

God fulfilled justice ONCE, never before, never after, only once.

If Jesus did not die on the cross, God would not be a God of Justice. God leaves sins of the past, present, and future unpunished. Because in his eternal Love (not justice) He leaves sins unpunished. Because He wanetd to be a God of Justice (never had done an action before to be deemed a God of Justice persay, although He always has been one, but He also always had the plan of justice, to fulfill justice, and to be just, and to justify those in Christ)

God doesn't punish sin, nor does he condone killing.
God was a God of Justice only once. The only time EVER He will be a God of Justice again is at the end of time when all are judged. Those without Jesus will be condemned and God will, a second time be a God of Justice. BUT ONLY A SECOND TIME.

But what is this, that we say He is just only once? For in that Justice, for in that "God of Justice" is actually just Love. It's actually not justice at all (although it is fully justice) it's actually Love. A 'God of Love'. If you ask and say, "If you were to give one title to God based on Him giving up His Son to die on a cross, what would it be?" They will answer: A God of Love. More often than anything else... because that's who He is, LOVE!

He is Justice, but only because He is Love. He was only Just once, but that ONE time He was a God of Justice fulfilled ALL justice so that He was, is, and will continue to be a God of Justice, but under the greater title of a God of Love.

Romans 3:25-26
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[mont974x4]

Wow, what Bible are you reading?

[Forest]

The Bible is clear, there is a time for war and there is a time for capital punishment.

So if that's the case, when is the time? How do you know?

[noparty]

I appreciate your disclaimer. Thanks.


I disagree with your premise that individual teachings apply to groups in the same way. Scripture clearly diferentiates. None of us are saying that as an individual we are free to murder. Likewise, I am not free to exact revenge/vigilantism. However, God gave us governments in order to protect the peope and to exact justice. This is done through war and capital punishment.


Does anyone see prisons in the OT or NT other than those in foriegn nations or foriegn control? I haven't found any reference to an Isrealite prison. Either fines/resitution were paid, or the person was put to death.

If someone has an example of an Isrealite prison in Scripture, please share it with us. Remember, the cities of refuge were not used as prisons, but a place to protect the accused from vigilante justice.


The Bible is clear, there is a time for war and there is a time for capital punishment.

Your interpretation of the Bible is by no means incorrect. Capital punishment is commanded in the Bible. I doubt the most pacifistic biblical scholar would disagree. In fact, it goes way beyond what we now consider capital offenses. Most governments no longer kill thieves, homosexuals, adulterers, disobedient children, etc. , even though the Bible specifically commands us to. Most Christians no longer enforce those scriptures. In fact, we criticize Islamic countries for killing those same groups of people. I'd like to think we've grown and changed our stance as a result of Jesus's love and forgiveness. Have we grown enough, or should we continue to strive to be more like Jesus?

[mont974x4]

noparty, God doesn't change, nor do His mandates.

I would say, when are we going to enforce His standards?

I do wish we didn't need war or capital punishment.....that time has not yet come, and it won't until Christ returns.

[noparty]

noparty, God doesn't change, nor do His mandates.

I would say, when are we going to enforce His standards?

I do wish we didn't need war or capital punishment.....that time has not yet come, and it won't until Christ returns.

I appreciate your consistency. Personally, I'm glad we no longer execute disobedient children because if we did, I wouldn't be here to discuss this with you. :)

[linssue55]

Your scripture doesn't prove what you are claiming it proves.

You say it proves we are allowed to go to war and to kill. WRONG.

If you noticed, it always says "And the Lord said,"

There's a big difference between "And the Lord said," and "And then President Bush said,"

Bush along with every man, is NOT God. Killing is a sin, plain and simple. If God says to kill, it's not a sin. But that's God's place. Life, judgement, that's all in God's hands, not man's.

What you are quoting is that God has authority and righteousness to kill. What you are saying is that man is God.

Man isn't God. And I can guarantee you, President Bush, nor any president ever for that matter, talks to God. God neither commands them to go to war, nor does he think it's okay to take the life of another.

It's one thing to say "And God said, "Go to war." it's another thing to say "I am God, we're going to war."

Your point is that man, the government is God.
This isn't true. This is the biggest political flaw in christianity today. Christians think that the Gov't has all the authority God has. The government isn't God, nor will it ever be, nor is any man, nor will any man ever be.

Your scripture only proves that you give man, the president, government, the label of God. Man is not God, not can man justify his sin.

Stop justifying your sin. Your heart loves violence.
Repent, for the Kingdom of Love is at hand.I will no longer respond to your post's, for you are in COMPLETE and TOTAL denial. This discusion is over!!

BUMP!

[RonnyRulz]

Personally, I'm glad we no longer execute disobedient children because if we did, I wouldn't be here to discuss this with you.


We're suppose to though. If Christians had their way, capital punishment would apply to disobedient children. It's in the Bible, read it!!! God hates children. It's in the Bible. If you think differently you don't understand the REAL meaning of the Bible. Man's interpretation is better than God's interpretation. Kill the children! Capital punishment for all disobedient 12 year olds!!!!!!!!! </sarcasm>

[pgp_protector]

That's the truest thing said here in this thread. And that's where the problem lies. Those who agree that God is Love, and those who disagree.

Those who know God is Love know also that taking the life of another is an abomination, regardless of any "justification". Those who disagree on that basic principle believe in killing.

God is Love, but God is not Just Love, He is much more.

[Wisdom's Child]

We're suppose to though. If Christians had their way, capital punishment would apply to disobedient children. It's in the Bible, read it!!! God hates children. It's in the Bible. If you think differently you don't understand the REAL meaning of the Bible. Man's interpretation is better than God's interpretation. Kill the children! Capital punishment for all disobedient 12 year olds!!!!!!!!! </sarcasm>
...don't forget to execute them publicly at the edge of town.
Make a real show of it to serve as an example to others.
:hug:

[mont974x4]

Thank God we are no longer under the Law but under grace.


That does not negate the God given reposnsibility of governments.

[noparty]

God doesn't change, nor do His mandates.

Thank God we are no longer under the Law but under grace.

?

[marke]

Well, there is this,Luke 3:14, And the soldiers likewise demended of him,saying,And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, Neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.....This is the people who are listening to John the Baptists witness ,and call to repentance. The death penalty stands. However, we Christians, are not to judge, lest we be judged. I was released from jury duty in a capitol case because I told the judge and defense attourney,that I would not vote the death penalty,even if the defendant was found guilty,for this reason. In Co. the jury decides guilt and decides whether or not the defendant must die. But, since in some states the judge pronounces sentance,not the jury,in that state I would serve.
And society would be in your debt to have someone with such integrity serve as a mediator of truth.

God Bless. II Cor 9:15

[pgp_protector]

Thank God we are no longer under the Law but under grace.


That does not negate the God given reposnsibility of governments.

Originally Posted by mont974x4 View Post
God doesn't change, nor do His mandates.

Thank God we are no longer under the Law but under grace.?

Someone edited the post

[noparty]

Someone edited the post

Two different mont quotes from two different posts. I split them up for clarity. Sorry for the confusion.

[marke]

Two different mont quotes from two different posts. I split them up for clarity. Sorry for the confusion.
But did you answer the question?

"Where exactly did Jesus give permission of kill"?

Still waiting for scripture.

God Bless.

[mont974x4]

God orders killing......

Ezek. 9:5] And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.

[Num. 31:1] And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

Please (as well as chapter 31) read all of chapter (22-)25, which is the reason and background of chapter 31. In chapter 25 we read how (the Moabites and) Midianites seduce Israel to idolatery (worship of other gods) of the worst kind, mixed with adultery (as the means of the seduction). This is scheme of the Moabites and Midianites after their plan to curse Israel through Baalam fails [ch. 22-24]. Note also, that God himself strikes Israel for it with a plague in which 24,000 in Israel die [25:9]. God is not partial. Sin will be punished, and will FIRST be punished in his own people [lots of references to that all through the Bible, ask me if you need more].


Second, it is on the explicit command of the Lord to Moses. The Israelites have not dreamed this up themselves. It was not their "idea" to go to war. Interesting observation for later: In the end among the spoils are 32,000 girls/women who have never slept with a man [i.e. have been innocent of this seduction to idolatery by offering sex]. What does that say about the number of men they fought against? 32,000 virgin women usually have brothers and fathers in military age. 50,000 might not be unrealistic [though I am speculating here]. Now the interesting bit: Moses after instructed by God, sends only 12 x 1,000 into battle, i.e. a "small" army against a big enemy. The meaning of that will come later.

Also [verse 2], Moses who is asked to announce this command, will have no part of the spoil. This is his last act as leader of Israel, after it (as God told him) he will die.

I don't know to say much more here. Main point is: It is a definite command of God, it is a punishment of the LORD to the evil of the Midianites [after the Israelites have already been punished in chapter 25], and it is "the Lord's battle", what is especially to be seen in verse 49. It was not a "normal, human battle".
In comparison with what comes next, one might remark that the Midianites in a certain sense had "not been on the Lord's program" of punishment. They have forced themselves into it by their attempt to stand against God plan of leading his people Israel into the land he had promised them. Therefore the "procedures" are a bit different than all the way through Joshua and as announced by Moses before they even enter the land.
[Josh 6:16] Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city (of the Canaanites).. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are c consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord. The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.

Principle: God's goodness wants to lead us to repentance. [Romans 2:4] But where people consistently resist God, judgement will come [Rom 2:5, both in the day of Judgement as well as in this world.]
Here's post #70 again

[denissca]

There is nowhere in the NT can be found any permission to kill anyone under any circumstances. What can be found is that it is an honor and a previllage for a real Christian to be wrongfully accused, prosecuted and/or even killed. So, if you really believe in Christ, you would be happy to die for the sake of Christ. :amen:

[RonnyRulz]

Are you so stubborn and dullheaded that you keep on reposting the same post (#70) despite the fact it was already proven that it doesn't prove killing in scripture?

It proves God can kill, but it doesn't prove man can.

MAN ISN'T GOD

What is wrong with you people!? Are you so out of touch with God that you choose killing and violence over Love? Over Him?

I've had enough of this, I'm now convinced that most people who claim to be Christians aren't christians. I would never consider anyone a Christian who chooses love for violence and love for sin (and justifying at that!) over Love Love Love.

God is Love, and nothing more, nothing less. God is Love. God is God. God is a Person, Him, Himself. God is God. God is Love.

To add onto love, you'll have the plagues added on to you. To subtract love, you'll have your eternal life subtracted from you.

[Faith In God]

Interesting thread.

-Regarding Paul talking in Romans about the government:
he is talking about submission to government as a governing body. Never (in the few times he mentions it) does he talk about JOINING the government in execution of its job. The government of this world is just that: the government of THIS WORLD, of which we are not.

-Regarding the centurion Jesus said had great faith:
Jesus did not tell him to leave the military. Why? Why didn't John?
For a similar reason soldiers in the US who become Christians (get it? Christians do not become soldiers) shouldn't leave: soldiers swear an oath to the government to do its bidding. When you enlist, you become "GI": Government Issue. The government's property. You must do what it says: you have sworn to it.

-Regarding the IMMENSELY different view of God in the OT (violent) as opposed to the NT (non-violent):
The OT, (not to sound like I'm bringing up an old argument, but really, this is one of the very few it applies to) WAS written in a completely different time.
Do you know what the ancient world was like??
Highly, highly religious. Every nation was supposed to be under some sort of theocracy. And for some stupid reason that mankind thought up, nations spread their glory through conquest and won wars, and thus, bringing glory to their gods.

That's the world God's nation of Israel was living. So, sad to say, God spread His glory through the earth via man's ideology: won wars. The most terrible nations obviously had the "best" gods/God.

That was then. This is now.
Napoleon once said "God is on the side with the most guns".

Warfare has nothing to do with religion (don't take that the wrong way. Plenty of people still kill in God's name): it has to do with physical might and political prowess. If a nation does something now (fighting a war) in God's name, the rest of the world looks on it with contempt, not with awe, for the world ideology in this area is completely different now.

The difference: there exists no theocracy on earth as a government (esp to directly represent Jehovah in particular, as Israel did). God does not change. He still spreads His glory. He is still a God of judgment and has put it off for His own hand to deal out in the future. But now man's job, though the same, has a different quota: a more palpable love.


:prayer: This is not an easy thought to digest, but really, now...
We follow God and Christ, not the wisdom of the world.

[RonnyRulz]

...don't forget to execute them publicly at the edge of town.
Make a real show of it to serve as an example to others.
:hug:
Yea, and while we are at it, we should publicly execute all the women who wanted an abortion. Not ones that DID have one, but ones that want one. The unborn baby will die, but it's the price you have to pay to condemn and fulfill justice by killing those who even THINK about sinning.
Let's also execute every man that looks at a woman with lust, and every women who looks at a man with lust.

And even more-so, let's execute anyone who has premarital sex, and raise the standard to execute anyone who gets married that isn't as righteous as us. Doesn't it make you mad that unsaved people are getting married!?!? I mean, they are having premarital sex and should DIE! But if they are waiting to get married to have sex and doing what's right, STILL, let's condemn them for getting married. That way they are condemned and executed either way!

Let's also kill every baby, they might be the next antichrist. And it would be good to prevent sin by not increasing the population.
Let's also execute all middle-eastern people because of the terrorist attacks. Let's force everyone to convert to Christianity. If they choose not to, let's publicly execute them too. Christianity at its finest! Everyone is judged, condemned, and sentence to public execution.

Oh yea, and don't forget to execute anyone trying to bring peace to the world. Let's execute them too. In fact, let's just nuke the entire world besides America. We have enough nuclear weapons, let's just nuke the entire world but us. That way we own the world.

[Harlan Norris]

I thought for a long time abo