Beware of wrong teaching

[marke]

Christians. Your soul is at risk. Joel Hunter is the new President of the "Christian Coalition" and he said he hopes to make the Christian Coalition "more of a grass-roots organization so that we can mobilize every Christian in America to have a political involvement as a part of their normal spiritual growth." This is really deadly wrong teaching according to New Testament scripture and a good reason to ask yourself if the "Christian Right" are leading their followers to Heaven or hell. Jesus gives us clear guidelines on how to discern right from wrong and warns time and time again not to follow blindly. There is a scriptural problem with Christians standing for or against issues of the world in that the dead don’t concern themselves with issues of the world. It’s a matter of self preservation. Correct New Testament scripture says Christians should be dead to the world allowing God to be in control. Yet the accumulators (how you know them), these ministers of misinformation whose unsubstantiated doctrine blows with the wind encourage their followers to do these very things; the very things that Jesus warns will destroy your soul. Example. The parable of the seeds, Matthew 13:22 and repeated again in Luke 8:14, shows the ministers of misinformation are deadly wrong: involvement with the world causes you to lose your salvation. These ministers of error say you can’t lose your salvation and encourage you to vote their way, condemn those they don’t like, seek riches (just like them) and involve yourself in issues of the world. In this parable, Jesus shows this to be flat out wrong teaching. Deadly to your soul even. Read the scripture yourself. Jesus says get out of the world, the "Christian Right" says get more involved. Who are you going to follow?

[Gimpy]

I believe you may be very correct. For instance, this government of ours has ongoing normal relations with China, and some trade with Viet Nam and the Muslim nations. In China and in Viet Nam and some of the Muslim nations are many, many Christian martyrs. They are imprisoned, starved and tortured, and even executed or just plain murdered. Does our wonderful right or left wing partys do anything about it? NO. It is never even a subject of discussion.

[mont974x4]

So what is it you are suggesting?

Don't vote? Don't serve in the military or any other service?

IMO, that is wrong. No where do we see soldiers told to get out of the military after thier conversion. Being good citizens and voting, IMO, is something we should do.

I fyou are going to vote, I do strongly encourage people to really study the issues and the candidates....with the understanding that nothing is perfect here.


Also, IMO, you have taken the parable of the seeds out of context. I beleive it is clearly talking about the Gospel.


One of the dangers of your line of thinking is that people can, will, and do apply it to evangelism and ministry. They say things like, "God is in control, so I don't need to do anything. He will save who He wants, when He wants. etc." I hope we agree that this thinking is wrong, but people still do it.


Back to politics....how would you fit the passages of being salt and light into this context?

I don't like most of the policies of Dem's or Repub's (which is why I am Libertarian) but I don't think a complete disengaging is the right way to handle the situation.

[Wisdom's Child]

:preach:
In the political realm do we simply turn a blind eye to the worldly, or do we when given the opportunity, intervene and use our judgement to descern good from evil and do what is in our ability to stand against wickedness?
Let's look....

Genesis 1:26-28
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

God has given Dominion of this earth to mankind, and has instructed us to subdue it. That means to bring it under our authority and control.
Remember, Adam and his descendents are called the children of God.
That is who has the authorization from God to excercise dominion over this earth.
The sons of darkness, the wicked ones, have ussurped this authority and have convinced many that this world belongs to them.
It does not!


Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The sons of Adam have "godlike" knowlegde and understanding of Good and Evil, and the ability to descern and exercise judgements based upon that knowledge.


Psalm 82
A Psalm of Asaph.
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty;
he judgeth among the gods.
How long will ye judge unjustly,
and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
Defend the poor and fatherless:
do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy:
rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
They know not, neither will they understand;
they walk on in darkness:
all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
I have said, Ye are gods;
and all of you are children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


God asks us, his children, "How long will ye judge unjustly,
and accept the persons of the wicked?"
How long will we stand by and do nothing even though we posess both the descernment, and the authority as the "gods" of our dominion, to intervene, take back control, and do what we know to be right?

God says that He is standing in the congregation of the mighty (His Church, The Body of Christ). And that He is present among us "the gods of our dominion" as judgements are passed. But we are judging unjustly, we are accepting these wicked persons.....God asks, How long will we continue to do this?
When we as a congregation make it our choice to do nothing, then God will do nothing.....we have dominion, it is for us to subdue, to bring under our control....not God. Yes, God can do it, but that is not God's Will.
God will work with us and through us, but not for us.
God is not our servant, We are His servants, We do the tasks with God's assistance and Authority from Him.
God is simply waiting for us to step up so that He can work His way through us. We are the Body, We are the Arms, The Legs, The Hands, The Feet, with which to carry out His Works.


John 10:34-37
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Luke 20:36
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Romans 8: 14-17
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Ask yourself.....who did the Word of God come to?
Have you recieved The Word into your life?
Can Scripture be broken?
Are Christians said to be called the children of God?
Are you a part of the Congregation of the Mighty?
Then I ask you...
How long will you continue to judge unjustly?
How long will you continue to accept wicked politicians with ungodly and evil agendas as your leaders?
Arise and Defend the poor and fatherless:
Arise and do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Arise and Deliver the poor and needy:
Arise and Remove them out of the hand of the wicked.
Our Worldly Political Leaders, they know not, neither will they understand for they walk in darkness:
Are not the foundations of the earth out of course?
Is there not disorder and inequity in our Government Policies, both domestic and international?
"We The People...."
"Government Of The People, By The People, and For The People"
Do we not possess the authority and the moral necessity to hold our leadership accountable?
What they do, they do in our name, under our sanction, supported by our vote.
"Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
Stand in One, United Voice, and VOTE.....
Descern and pass judgement upon that which is wicked.

[prophecystudent]

I do not understand the OP purpose. If it is to convince us that Christians have no business getting involved in the governments under which we live, then I disagree.

I have found nothing in the bible, or in teachings, that indicates we are to withdraw from our civic duties.

We MUST get involved in every proper way to see that our elected officials are ones that support our views on things like religion, moral behavior, ethics, etc.

To blindly sit by and wait for God to do it for us is to ignore a basic tenet from scripture.

GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES.

Fred

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

I disagree with the OP. I think that we need to be actively involved in our communities and that includes voting.

I do not think that Jesus would want us to turn our backs on the unborn children, poor or elderly (any one in society) that are directly effected by the laws of our land. If we do not vote and have a voice on such issues, we are turning our backs on them.

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

Sorry - Double Post

[marke]

Hello friends:

I see a lot of opinions and thoughts, but no New Testament scripture to back up your opinions and thoughts.

Where do any of you see Jesus or anyone telling you to strive for office or involve yourself in issues of the world? Please show me.

My Bible tells me God controls everything (PSM 139) and Jesus tells us not a sparrow falls without His leave so what business is it of yours to judge whether gays should marry or not? Are you without sin that you can afford to suffer, only in spades, the same condemnation you are dishing out? Correct New Testament teaching says we can judge those within the body, but God is the judge of those without the body. All you are doing is harming yourself (rom 2:1) by being involved in this issue.

When did God become such a whimp that His creation Man can overrule His will? It didn't happen. Whom ever is to win will win and may His will be done.

Anyway friends, I would be interested to see what you can come up with to support your thoughts and opinions that you should involve yourselves with issues of the world.

Let me just say that I agree with you that we should be involved with our community. Just not in a leadership level because those that strive for a leadership position often have to compromise their values to appease everyone. We are servants and that is a good place to be. Just imagine if the churches tithed back 10% to their community. So much good would be done everyone would flock to Jesus, but sadly jet fuel is more important to the accumulators.

Friends, if you go to a horse race you can enjoy a really good race, but as soon as you place a bet you are no longer an observer, but a participant and now your enjoyment is dependant upon the outcome. Same with involving yourself in issues of the world you are warned time and time again not to do it.

Fred, you say "To blindly sit by and wait for God to do it for us is to ignore a basic tenet from scripture.

"GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES".

I'm sorry sir, but I've never seen that basic tenet from scripture. With all due respect, I think you are quoting a fairy tail as a basic tenet. I would like to be corrected if you can point out the scripture where you found this basic tenet.

God Bless.

[marke]

One last thing Fred, you write "I have found nothing in the bible, or in teachings, that indicates we are to withdraw from our civic duties."

I have to ask, where exactly does it say in the New Testament you are to involve yourself in civic duties?

Thanks. I'll look for your reply. God Bless.

[mont974x4]

Marke, were the centurians told to leave the military? Were tax collectors told to find new jobs?


Consider this, how are we to be light in the area of politics? I would suggest that God will raise the right man at the right time with the right tools to accomplish His will. That would also require the man to be willing to answer that call.


I certainly agree that he must be on guard at all times.

Perhaps this is one reason why we are told to pray for our leaders?


Does God have to use men? Nope, but we see Him do so time and time again for various missions and minsitries.

[marke]

Mont944x4:

Your write "So what is it you are suggesting?

Don't vote? Don't serve in the military or any other service?"

Yes, I am saying don't vote, but I am not saying don't serve your country. You can serve in many ways, just don't put yourself in a position where you will have to kill someone. Pastor, grave digger, cook are all honorable professions where you can serve without destroying your soul by killing another.

You say "IMO, that is wrong. No where do we see soldiers told to get out of the military after their conversion."

Yes you are correct, but you are told time and time again not to kill. A soldier is not a good profession for a Christian any more than a porn star profession. There are just some professions a Christian should not involve themselves with and a job killing or torturing someone is one of those jobs to avoid.

Further, you say "No where do we see soldiers told to get out of the military". Where exactly do you see scripture encouraging Christians to join the military?

Traditions of man can't save your soul. Jesus envisioned one body and yet today there are so many calling themselves Christians the only was to discern truth from fairy tales is to study the New Testament.

If you can't find it in scripture, then you are following traditions of man.

God Bless.

[mont974x4]

If we look at the word kill it is as an individual. That is murder and that is wrong.


There is nothing against a nation waging war or against a Christian serving in that capacity.


There is nothing that says a Christian can't join the military and nothing commanding us to do so. That tells us that it is a personal choice between the man and God. The important thing is that he be fully convinced and that he doesn't force his personal choice as a belief on others.

[Starcrystal]

the Christian Coalition has had some pretty radical agendas in the past. Bordering on dangerous. I don't know where they stand today as I have been out of touch. (I was once a supporter and voted for Pat Robertson in 88 by the way).

Christians should be very careful when getting involved in politics. And honest. Sometimes I see those who claim to be Christian have made false promises or have implemented legislation that cannot possibly be Christian: for example - Clinton claimed Christianity but supported abortion and gay marraige. Yeah, right.
Both major parties are guilty of this.
If someone's going to be a Christian and in leadership possitions within government than at least be honest. And don't take away constitutional freedoms in the process.

[mont974x4]

Arustus, from Romans 16:23 is another example of a beleiever in gov't service. Depending on the translation is he called a city planner or a director of public works. I have not studied it out to see what that meant in the historical context.

I recently found this in my daily reading.

[RonnyRulz]

We do need to be aware of wrong teachings. Especially since some teachers are ignorant themselves and just teach ignorance or evil.

If we were more aware, there wouldn't be controversy about war, killing, capital punishment, harry potter, the Holy Spirit, politics, or any of the hundreds of controversies that exist today.

[SteelDisciple]

Christians. Your soul is at risk. Joel Hunter is the new President of the "Christian Coalition" and he said he hopes to make the Christian Coalition "more of a grass-roots organization so that we can mobilize every Christian in America to have a political involvement as a part of their normal spiritual growth." This is really deadly wrong teaching according to New Testament scripture and a good reason to ask yourself if the "Christian Right" are leading their followers to Heaven or hell. Jesus gives us clear guidelines on how to discern right from wrong and warns time and time again not to follow blindly. There is a scriptural problem with Christians standing for or against issues of the world in that the dead don’t concern themselves with issues of the world. It’s a matter of self preservation. Correct New Testament scripture says Christians should be dead to the world allowing God to be in control. Yet the accumulators (how you know them), these ministers of misinformation whose unsubstantiated doctrine blows with the wind encourage their followers to do these very things; the very things that Jesus warns will destroy your soul. Example. The parable of the seeds, Matthew 13:22 and repeated again in Luke 8:14, shows the ministers of misinformation are deadly wrong: involvement with the world causes you to lose your salvation. These ministers of error say you can’t lose your salvation and encourage you to vote their way, condemn those they don’t like, seek riches (just like them) and involve yourself in issues of the world. In this parable, Jesus shows this to be flat out wrong teaching. Deadly to your soul even. Read the scripture yourself. Jesus says get out of the world, the "Christian Right" says get more involved. Who are you going to follow?


Speaking of wrong teachings...maybe you should close your mouth. The Bible doesn't say we are to be seperated from the world. We can be involved in the world, just not IN IT. Not married to it. Not having our heart in it.

[RonnyRulz]

Speaking of wrong teachings...maybe you should close your mouth
Gentleness! Gentleness!

[jad123]

Speaking of wrong teachings...maybe you should close your mouth. The Bible doesn't say we are to be seperated from the world. We can be involved in the world, just not IN IT. Not married to it. Not having our heart in it.


:thumbsup:

[jad123]

Christians. Your soul is at risk. Joel Hunter is the new President of the "Christian Coalition" and he said he hopes to make the Christian Coalition "more of a grass-roots organization so that we can mobilize every Christian in America to have a political involvement as a part of their normal spiritual growth." This is really deadly wrong teaching according to New Testament scripture and a good reason to ask yourself if the "Christian Right" are leading their followers to Heaven or hell. Jesus gives us clear guidelines on how to discern right from wrong and warns time and time again not to follow blindly. There is a scriptural problem with Christians standing for or against issues of the world in that the dead don’t concern themselves with issues of the world. It’s a matter of self preservation. Correct New Testament scripture says Christians should be dead to the world allowing God to be in control. Yet the accumulators (how you know them), these ministers of misinformation whose unsubstantiated doctrine blows with the wind encourage their followers to do these very things; the very things that Jesus warns will destroy your soul. Example. The parable of the seeds, Matthew 13:22 and repeated again in Luke 8:14, shows the ministers of misinformation are deadly wrong: involvement with the world causes you to lose your salvation. These ministers of error say you can’t lose your salvation and encourage you to vote their way, condemn those they don’t like, seek riches (just like them) and involve yourself in issues of the world. In this parable, Jesus shows this to be flat out wrong teaching. Deadly to your soul even. Read the scripture yourself. Jesus says get out of the world, the "Christian Right" says get more involved. Who are you going to follow?


Scripture reveals many things and turning our backs on our civic duties is not one of them. Scripture does not tell us the governement and military are horrible, in fact it is the opposite.

When asked by Roman legionnaires about how to conduct their lives John the Baptist tells them to be content with their wages among other things (Luke 3:14). Jesus is truly inspired by the faith of the centurion and holds it up as the best example in all of Israel (Luke 7:9). Paul suggests that members of Caesar's Praetorian Guard had converted (Philippians 4:22). And Romans tells us the government authorities have been instituted by God, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God."

[twistedsketch]

Yes, I am saying don't vote, but I am not saying don't serve your country. You can serve in many ways, just don't put yourself in a position where you will have to kill someone. Pastor, grave digger, cook are all honorable professions where you can serve without destroying your soul by killing another.
Voting isn't killing.



Further, you say "No where do we see soldiers told to get out of the military". Where exactly do you see scripture encouraging Christians to join the military?


One last thing Fred, you write "I have found nothing in the bible, or in teachings, that indicates we are to withdraw from our civic duties."

I have to ask, where exactly does it say in the New Testament you are to involve yourself in civic duties?
Instead of circular logic, why don't you just take the Romans 14 approach. If Scripture is silent on a matter, then saying something equivalent to "thou shalt not vote" is putting your opinion - a teaching of MAN - up there with God's commands. If Scripture doesn't call it sin, you don't have the right to anathemize those that do it.

[mont974x4]

Where does it say that doing a soldiers duty kills your soul? Remember, murder and war are two diferent things.


twisted, well said. We need to be careful how we handle things when we are free to choose. We can't force our view on others and we can't look down on or demean those we disagree with.

I am also reminded of the need to be fully convinced.


Jay

[marke]

Wisdoms Child writes: "Discern and pass judgement upon that which is wicked."


How many of you know that is simply wrong wrong wrong teaching?


God says Judgement is MINE. Jesus says with what measure you judge another you yourself will be judged for your transgressions, only much harsher. The Apostle Paul says you can judge people within the church, but God is the judge outside the church.


Just because something may sound correct doesn't mean it is correct.


Just like the thread "Where did Jesus give Christians permission to kill". No a single person has been able to support the assertion a Christian can take a human life yet still so many refuse to give up this dangerous fairy tail.


Don't be deceived by personal opinions. We are told to test everything so not to be misled. Find the scripture to support your beliefs and conform yourself to the teachings of Jesus. If someone can't support their assertion with scripture, then it is wrong teaching simple as that.

Wisdoms Child also says: "In the political realm do we simply turn a blind eye to the worldly, or do we when given the opportunity, intervene and use our judgement to discern good from evil and do what is in our ability to stand against wickedness?" and then goes on to quote a bunch of OT scripture.


In Christianity, we follow the teachings of Jesus who brought the new agreement from God into the world and NOTHING says to involve yourself with issues of the world. God is in control. In fact, doing so is the very thing that can destroy your soul.


Don't be misled friends. The enemy of your soul will tell you anything to destroy you. That's why you need to read the New Testament, find the scripture in question and follow the scripture.

If you base your faith on one liners that go against the whole spirit of the teachings, chances are you're going to fall short of the prize.

Take care.


God Bless.

[mont974x4]

Marke, look closely at the ideals of discerning and judgement. Do an indepth word study on both.

We are to do this. Not in condemnation, but we are to hold people accountable for their actions in light of the Word. This is why we have church discipline. This is how we guard against wolves in the flock.

This is not judging in the traditional sense that most people think of.

[marke]

Speaking of wrong teachings...maybe you should close your mouth. The Bible doesn't say we are to be seperated from the world. We can be involved in the world, just not IN IT. Not married to it. Not having our heart in it.
If you go to a horse race (the world) you can enjoy a great race. If you place a bet (vote) you are now involved and the outcome of the race determines whether you really enjoyed the race or not.

I didn't vote and God's will was done. I'm still happy.

You write: "The Bible doesn't say we are to be separated from the world." Hello? Did you look up the parable of the seeds reference I provided?

Mat 13:22 And that sown into the thorns is this: he who hears the Word; and the anxiety of this world, and the deceit of riches, choke the Word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Then it is repeated in Luke.

You want to involve yourself with the world and risk your soul you go ahead. It's your soul.

God Bless.

[mont974x4]

hmmm wouldn't taken Scripture out of context and/or twisiting it to fit your view be a wrong teaching?

tread lightly, brother. Your soul is at stake.

[marke]

Where does it say that doing a soldiers duty kills your soul? Remember, murder and war are two diferent things.


twisted, well said. We need to be careful how we handle things when we are free to choose. We can't force our view on others and we can't look down on or demean those we disagree with. That's what faith in Jesus is to free you from.

I am also reminded of the need to be fully convinced.


Jay
Apparently Exo. 20:13 is wrong and so is the concordance in respect to taking another human life. Look it up. Killing a human is killing a human no matter the justification.

Sure you can justify anything, but where anywhere does Jesus give permission to take another human life?

Please before you go on to tell me how wrong I am, please answer the above question. If you can't perhaps it's time to re-evaluate you position.

Why do many seem to think it is OK to become a soldier and to take another human life in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ Jesus and then stand against say a girl making her living as a stripper to feed her children? It's really strange. Shouldn't both be off limits for Christians?

You say: "Where does it say that doing a soldiers duty kills your soul? Remember, murder and war are two diferent things."

Please quote me the scripture that says become a soldier and murder and killing are two different things.

Killing really works with the "Do on to others as you would have them do to you", doesn't it? That's the qualification, if you wouldn't like to be killed or tortured, do you think the other person you are trying to kill would enjoy it? God controls everything. When you time comes, your time comes. Trust Jesus. You don't have to live your life in fear.

God Bless.

[mont974x4]

As a soldier I fully accept the ramifications of that decision. I am fully convinced of my beleifs

Keep things in context...was the Law written to individuals or to a givernment. If war is wrong (and please leave the torture issue out if it, none of us advocate that and it is beneath you) then God is wrong, because He Himself has commanded it. I won't apologize or compromise my belief that God is right and just.

As I said, I support the just war ideal and I believe it to be biblical.

As to capital punishment, God Himself, also directed this.


So, I guess we will just agree to disagree. I leave you in peace.


Jay

[marke]

As a soldier I fully accept the ramifications of that decision. I am fully convinced of my beleifs

Keep things in context...was the Law written to individuals or to a givernment. If war is wrong (and please leave the torture issue out if it, none of us advocate that and it is beneath you) then God is wrong, because He Himself has commanded it. I won't apologize or compromise my belief that God is right and just.

As I said, I support the just war ideal and I believe it to be biblical.

As to capital punishment, God Himself, also directed this.


So, I guess we will just agree to disagree. I leave you in peace.


Jay
THERE WE GO!!!!

So that is what this is all about. You want to justify your actions so you can kill without remorse. HA!

You should have picked a different profession.

Rather than defend your position which after days and days of being posted and which is looking more and more to be a fairy tale since no one has been able to find ANY scripture to support this belief, own up to the fact that you have chosen to kill against the teachings of Jesus and ask for forgiveness. With what mercy you show to others, you get in return. That's what scripture says. Glad you are against torture.

We are all sinners in one way or another. I have my failings and ask for forgiveness on a moment to moment basis, but the difference is I seek to grow and conform myself to the teachings rather than pollute others souls with my unsubstantiated beliefs.

Enough with the arguing. Truth of scripture doesn't seem to matter. In the middle of the night you would argue it's day light so not to be corrected.

One more thing. You said I took the parable of the seeds out of context. How so? Never mind. I didn't ask that. I know where you are coming from now and I don't want to go there.

May God have mercy on us both.

God Bless.

[marke]

As a soldier I fully accept the ramifications of that decision. I am fully convinced of my beleifs

Keep things in context...was the Law written to individuals or to a givernment. If war is wrong (and please leave the torture issue out if it, none of us advocate that and it is beneath you) then God is wrong, because He Himself has commanded it. I won't apologize or compromise my belief that God is right and just.

As I said, I support the just war ideal and I believe it to be biblical.

As to capital punishment, God Himself, also directed this.


So, I guess we will just agree to disagree. I leave you in peace.


Jay
You seem to be lost in the OT which was meant to fade away as it was replaced by a NEW arrangement God made with humanity.

Have you ever noticed? All the killing, rape, incest and ugly things of the OT are not spoken of in the NT.

Come to Jesus. The truth will set you free.

God Bless.

[jad123]

You seem to be lost in the OT which was meant to fade away as it was replaced by a NEW arrangement God made with humanity.

Have you ever noticed? All the killing, rape, incest and ugly things of the OT are not spoken of in the NT.

Come to Jesus. The truth will set you free.

God Bless.

Huh. Last time I checked the bible I am reading includes the OT and NT. The OT was not meant to fade away as you put.

[Reformationist]

Christians. Your soul is at risk. Joel Hunter is the new President of the "Christian Coalition" and he said he hopes to make the Christian Coalition "more of a grass-roots organization so that we can mobilize every Christian in America to have a political involvement as a part of their normal spiritual growth." This is really deadly wrong teaching according to New Testament scripture and a good reason to ask yourself if the "Christian Right" are leading their followers to Heaven or hell. Jesus gives us clear guidelines on how to discern right from wrong and warns time and time again not to follow blindly. There is a scriptural problem with Christians standing for or against issues of the world in that the dead don’t concern themselves with issues of the world. It’s a matter of self preservation. Correct New Testament scripture says Christians should be dead to the world allowing God to be in control. Yet the accumulators (how you know them), these ministers of misinformation whose unsubstantiated doctrine blows with the wind encourage their followers to do these very things; the very things that Jesus warns will destroy your soul. Example. The parable of the seeds, Matthew 13:22 and repeated again in Luke 8:14, shows the ministers of misinformation are deadly wrong: involvement with the world causes you to lose your salvation. These ministers of error say you can’t lose your salvation and encourage you to vote their way, condemn those they don’t like, seek riches (just like them) and involve yourself in issues of the world. In this parable, Jesus shows this to be flat out wrong teaching. Deadly to your soul even. Read the scripture yourself. Jesus says get out of the world, the "Christian Right" says get more involved. Who are you going to follow?

You poor disillusioned man. The fact that you'd think that anything Joel Hunter, or anyone else, says could overcome the plan and purpose of the Almighty God shows that you have very shallow faith in the sovereignty of God.

I'll pray for you. Hopefully God will release you from this bondage of anthropocentric thinking.

God bless

[mont974x4]

Easy there, no where does it say the OT is to fade away. That belief contradicts the nature of Scripture.



There are far too many NT quotes of the OT to justify your thinking on this.

Also, ALL Scripture is necessary.

Now that I know how you feel about the authority and nature of Scripture I will leave you to your own thoughts.

[Reformationist]

Easy there, no where does it say the OT is to fade away. That belief contradicts the nature of Scripture.



There are far too many NT quotes of the OT to justify your thinking on this.

Also, ALL Scripture is necessary.

Now that I know how you feel about the authority and nature of Scripture I will leave you to your own thoughts.

You're absolutley right. That type of thinking is the heresy of dispensationalism and has no place in the life of a rational Christian. I encourage you to do as you said and leave that particular poster to their own thoughts.

God bless

[Brian1040]

Christians. Your soul is at risk. Joel Hunter is the new President of the "Christian Coalition" and he said he hopes to make the Christian Coalition "more of a grass-roots organization so that we can mobilize every Christian in America to have a political involvement as a part of their normal spiritual growth." This is really deadly wrong teaching according to New Testament scripture and a good reason to ask yourself if the "Christian Right" are leading their followers to Heaven or hell. Jesus gives us clear guidelines on how to discern right from wrong and warns time and time again not to follow blindly. There is a scriptural problem with Christians standing for or against issues of the world in that the dead don’t concern themselves with issues of the world. It’s a matter of self preservation. Correct New Testament scripture says Christians should be dead to the world allowing God to be in control. Yet the accumulators (how you know them), these ministers of misinformation whose unsubstantiated doctrine blows with the wind encourage their followers to do these very things; the very things that Jesus warns will destroy your soul. Example. The parable of the seeds, Matthew 13:22 and repeated again in Luke 8:14, shows the ministers of misinformation are deadly wrong: involvement with the world causes you to lose your salvation. These ministers of error say you can’t lose your salvation and encourage you to vote their way, condemn those they don’t like, seek riches (just like them) and involve yourself in issues of the world. In this parable, Jesus shows this to be flat out wrong teaching. Deadly to your soul even. Read the scripture yourself. Jesus says get out of the world, the "Christian Right" says get more involved. Who are you going to follow?



I have talked to some Christians about there involment in politics on boards like this one, but many see nothing wrong with it, in fact some think its our duty to do so. My advice to you is leave them alone if they refuse to listen, they will find out sooner or later.

[Wisdom's Child]

Wisdoms Child writes: "Discern and pass judgement upon that which is wicked."

How many of you know that is simply wrong wrong wrong teaching?

Hebrews 5:12-14
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Corinthians 6:1-3
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels?
How much more things that pertain to this life?


Just because something may sound correct doesn't mean it is correct.

On that point we agree....


Just like the thread "Where did Jesus give Christians permission to kill". No a single person has been able to support the assertion a Christian can take a human life yet still so many refuse to give up this dangerous fairy tail.

Irrelevant to the arguement at hand...
(ref: wiki - Logical Falacies, #3 "No True Scottsman...")
A more than common Faux Pas, made by a person who is debating on shaky grounds.


Don't be deceived by personal opinions. We are told to test everything so not to be misled. Find the scripture to support your beliefs and conform yourself to the teachings of Jesus. If someone can't support their assertion with scripture, then it is wrong teaching simple as that.

...which is what I have done.
I quote scriptures, while you espouse your personal opinions.


Wisdoms Child also says: "In the political realm do we simply turn a blind eye to the worldly, or do we when given the opportunity, intervene and use our judgement to discern good from evil and do what is in our ability to stand against wickedness?" and then goes on to quote a bunch of OT scripture.

In Christianity, we follow the teachings of Jesus...
<snip>

John 5:39-47
<Words of Jesus>
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[Reyanah]

We're in this world not of it but it doesn't mean we stick our heads in the sand and act like everything is just fine either. We are to exercise our kingdom rights and priviledges and bring more of the kingdom to earth in the political force and the work force and in every area we can affect...we don't do that by being blind to their issues that the people of the world live in...including us....we aren't in heaven yet.

[Brian1040]

We're in this world not of it but it doesn't mean we stick our heads in the sand and act like everything is just fine either. We are to exercise our kingdom rights and priviledges and bring more of the kingdom to earth in the political force and the work force and in every area we can affect...we don't do that by being blind to their issues that the people of the world live in...including us....we aren't in heaven yet.

We are told in the Bible that Christians are to go about the world preaching the gospel to everyone; nothing in there about joining political parties and making this world a better place. The Bible is very clear on who is the god of this world, and what will happen to it.

[mont974x4]

We are told in the Bible that Christians are to go about the world preaching the gospel to everyone; nothing in there about joining political parties and making this world a better place. The Bible is very clear on who is the god of this world, and what will happen to it.

No one said we have to join political parties...and we are most certainly told to make the world a better place..
1. By spreading the Gospel
2. By caring for those in need physically

Nothing limits us from entering politics or any other industry. What we do there is the important issue.

[marke]

Easy there, no where does it say the OT is to fade away. That belief contradicts the nature of Scripture.



There are far too many NT quotes of the OT to justify your thinking on this.

Also, ALL Scripture is necessary.

Now that I know how you feel about the authority and nature of Scripture I will leave you to your own thoughts.
You write: "Easy there, no where does it say the OT is to fade away. That belief contradicts the nature of Scripture."

I'm sorry, but scripture begs to correct your assertion again. You might want to review HEB 8 so you can see these quotes are not out of context.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much He is also the Mediator of a better covenant, which was built upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, then no place would have been sought for the second.

This says the NT is not an addition to the OT, but indeed a NT making the first void.


This is HEB 8:13 in 24 different versions of the bible. And they all agree. So it is you who is in error.

(ALT) By the saying "new," He has made the first obsolete. Now the one becoming obsolete and growing old [is] on the verge of disappearing.

(ASV) In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

(BBE) When he says, A new agreement, he has made the first agreement old. But anything which is getting old and past use will not be seen much longer.

(CEV) When the Lord talks about a new agreement, he means that the first one is out of date. And anything that is old and useless will soon disappear.

(Darby) In that he says New, he has made the first old; but that which grows old and aged is near disappearing.

(DRB) Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end.

(EMTV) By the saying "new ," He has made the first obsolete. And the one becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish.

(ESV) In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

(GB) In that he saith a new Testament, he hath abrogate the olde: nowe that which is disanulled and waxed olde, is ready to vanish away.

(GNB) By speaking of a new covenant, God has made the first one old; and anything that becomes old and worn out will soon disappear.

(GW) God made this new promise and showed that the first promise was outdated. What is outdated and aging will soon disappear.

(HCSB) By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.

(HNV) In that he says, "A new covenant," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.

(ISV) In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

(KJV) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

(KJV+) In that he saith,3004 A new2537 covenant, he hath made the first old.3822, 3588, 4413 Now1161 that which decayeth3822 and2532 waxeth old1095 is ready to vanish away.1451, 854

(KJVR) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

(LITV) In the saying, New, He has made the first old. And the thing being made old and growing aged is near disappearing.

(MKJV) In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away.

(MSG) By coming up with a new plan, a new covenant between God and his people, God put the old plan on the shelf. And there it stays, gathering dust.

(WEB) In that he says, "A new covenant," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.

(Webster) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away.

(WNT) By using the words, "a new Covenant," He has made the first one obsolete; but whatever is decaying and showing signs of old age is not far from disappearing altogether.

(YLT) in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.

You write: "There are far too many NT quotes of the OT to justify your thinking on this".

The OT is meant to bring you to the NT (that's NT scripture too). The NT is a stand alone doctrine. The OT is supporting documentation whose validity is no longer.

But, what I would like to see is your references you mention. The OT is used as supporting documentation in the NT, but maybe you know a passage I don't so please quote the NT scripture to back your assertion.

You say: "Also, ALL Scripture is necessary".

That's not correct either. I came to Jesus from what is known as a "fire bible". These fire bibles were passed out all over the world and do you know what? There was no OT. That's right. NT scripture only is what brings people to Christ, not the OT. In fact, there is NT scripture that says not to read the words of Moses because you'll become blinded to the truth.

You write: "Now that I know how you feel about the authority and nature of Scripture I will leave you to your own thoughts".

Don't do that. The truth will set you free. Faith in wrong teaching is no faith at all. You were unable to back your assertion Christians are allowed to take another human life. You were wrong on your statement above regarding OT and NT and you are wrong about the necessity for all scripture. Strike three.

Don't pull back. Seek the truth in the scripture. I don't seek to ruin your day, but save your soul. I'm providing you with scripture, not opinions. I urge you to test your assumptions against NT scripture. So far, your assumptions haven't held water and as a result you may be following more wrong teaching. It's worth looking into. Your soul is at stake.

God Bless.

[marke]

You're absolutley right. That type of thinking is the heresy of dispensationalism and has no place in the life of a rational Christian. I encourage you to do as you said and leave that particular poster to their own thoughts.

God bless
How can he be absolutely right when HEB 8:13 begs to differ? See my other post with scripture.

You write: "That type of thinking is the heresy of dispensationalism". From what I know about dispensationalism, I'm not a big fan of it, but I think you have the concept confused. It's the dispensationalists who cling to the OT, not me.

God Bless.

[marke]

I have talked to some Christians about there involment in politics on boards like this one, but many see nothing wrong with it, in fact some think its our duty to do so. My advice to you is leave them alone if they refuse to listen, they will find out sooner or later.
That's great advice. But how do you not call out to someone standing on the highway in front of a bus not to move out of the way.

Nothing I have ever read in the NT tells people to involve themselves in issues of the world and is in fact the very thing that can destroy their soul.

Thanks for the advise.

God Bless.

[marke]

Hebrews 5:12-14
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Corinthians 6:1-3
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels?
How much more things that pertain to this life?


On that point we agree....


Irrelevant to the arguement at hand...
(ref: wiki - Logical Falacies, #3 "No True Scottsman...")
A more than common Faux Pas, made by a person who is debating on shaky grounds.


...which is what I have done.
I quote scriptures, while you espouse your personal opinions.


John 5:39-47
<Words of Jesus>
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Excellent post, Wisdom's Child. Thank you.

You are correct. Around that area in I or II Cor you'll also find where we are told to discern and judge within the church and that God is the judge without the church.

Here is where the problem is. Christians are being told to condemn those outside the church instead of inside the church and all that does is condemn themselves.

And I really like your ending paragraph. This is what the OT is all about. Proving who the Christ is, but as I mentioned in another post, I was called to Jesus with a "Fire Bible" without the OT. The NT stood on its own.

I do try and quote scripture rather than opinion. Thank you for reminding me to keep to the facts.

God bless.

[marke]

No one said we have to join political parties...and we are most certainly told to make the world a better place..
1. By spreading the Gospel
2. By caring for those in need physically

Nothing limits us from entering politics or any other industry. What we do there is the important issue.
Like in IRAQ right.

That action really pulled in the souls for Jesus didn't it?

What a shame. He could have done so much good and instead chose the darkness.

God bless.

[mont974x4]

Actually I fully support the Iraq front in the war on terror. You know what kind of love is shown when we sacrifice so much for a breath of freedom for other people? Fighting for them to have an environment that allows the Gospel to be preached? I really don't understand how Christians can be against this. It's seems selfish and hypocritical to me for people to gladly accept freedom that most of them didn't fight for but want to deny other people freedom because it may cost them something.

[imaniingod]

God Bless Each And Everyone And I Will Be Praying For You.

[imaniingod]

Go ye into all the world, winning souls for Christ! Being that one voice crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord.

[RonnyRulz]

Fighting for them to have an environment that allows the Gospel to be preached? I really don't understand how Christians can be against this.


Tell that to the innocent citizens who died. To fight a war to give freedom to a people? What people? Definitely not all the people.

Anyways, you don't have to fight man with the sword to have an environment where the gospel will be preached. God is fully capable of sending out people, fully protected by Him, to preach the gospel. God is not powerless that He can't preach the gospel in certain areas because it's "too dangeous." It's more of He can't preach the gospel in certain areas because people think it's too dangerous and don't have enough faith in God to follow God's Will. God keeps those in His Will safe from harms way.

To fight a war with the sword, to give others freedom, is to take away the freedom of others. Whether guilty or innocent, people die in wars. How can you justify taking the life of one man to give freedom to another?

If you had to kill Innocent Citizen Joe to give freedom to Innocent Citizen Bill, is it just? Who are you, who is the US Military, to decide who gets to live with freedom and who gets to die?

War is Hell, that's a fact. My question is, how could any Christian ever support Hell? Be in favor of Hell? Support, and even participate in, the creation of Hell? I thought Hell was suppose to be what Christians stray from and try to keep people out of, not something they create.

[Brian1040]

That's great advice. But how do you not call out to someone standing on the highway in front of a bus not to move out of the way.

Nothing I have ever read in the NT tells people to involve themselves in issues of the world and is in fact the very thing that can destroy their soul.

Thanks for the advise.

God Bless.

Do what you can without forcing it down there throut..so to speak.

[liveandlove]

In response to OP.....I was surprised to see this thread. Pastor Joel is my pastor. He does not tell us how to vote and whom to vote for. He tells us to vote because we are Christians and that we can influence the world with our biblical view through our voting.

Dr. Hunter is a man of God. He is humble and he loves the Lord. Maybe he makes mistakes, but don't we all? He lives his Christianity. His wife and his whole family are humble and his sons serve in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. We belong to a wealthy congregation but Pastor Joel lives in humility and has always given his whole life in service unlike these rich pastors jetting around and are living it up. Pastor Joel deserves love and respect. He is a man of God.

Your stance is dangerous. We ARE in this world and we are the salt of the world. If we lose our saltiness what good are we for? You cannot take yourself out of the world because you are Christian. That is called self-righteousness. We are to be fishers of men and to tell them of the love and forgiveness of Christ. We are not to be holier than thou and ineffective. We all need mercy because we are all sinners - not one is righteous.

[marke]

In response to OP.....I was surprised to see this thread. Pastor Joel is my pastor. He does not tell us how to vote and whom to vote for. He tells us to vote because we are Christians and that we can influence the world with our biblical view through our voting.

Dr. Hunter is a man of God. He is humble and he loves the Lord. Maybe he makes mistakes, but don't we all? He lives his Christianity. His wife and his whole family are humble and his sons serve in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. We belong to a wealthy congregation but Pastor Joel lives in humility and has always given his whole life in service unlike these rich pastors jetting around and are living it up. Pastor Joel deserves love and respect. He is a man of God.

Your stance is dangerous. We ARE in this world and we are the salt of the world. If we lose our saltiness what good are we for? You cannot take yourself out of the world because you are Christian. That is called self-righteousness. We are to be fishers of men and to tell them of the love and forgiveness of Christ. We are not to be holier than thou and ineffective. We all need mercy because we are all sinners - not one is righteous.
Would you please cite NT scripture to support your position that you should involve yourself in the world. Where anywhere are you encouraged to get yourself elected, fight anybody, or strive.

I don't know Pastor Joel, I do know his position and it is incorrect according to NT scripture. I however am not without fault and I do accept correction, so please show me the scripture you base this belief upon.

We Christians, according to NT scripture, may judge others within the church (you wouldn't want to hang around a bunch of divorced people inside a church would you!), but outside God is the judge and you only condemn yourself (divorced people for example) by condemning those outside the church (gay people for example) which is what your Pastor wants you to do. It's wrong.

Your Pastor may be the nicest person around, but if he is leading people astray according to NT scripture, then he is leading people astray.

Let's seek the truth. Can you post your supporting scripture please.

God bless.

[holo]

What is "the world" anyway? A night club? A library? Attitudes? Culture?

We're not to be like the world or be tainted by it. That probably means a lot of things, but I'm thinking "let's not be judgmental like the world. Let's not be religious like the world. Let's not struggle for good appearances like the world."

Not conforming to this world isn't about outer stuff like going to a movie theatre or being involved with politics. It's much deeper than that.

[deshadow]

this is a fantastic idea....

is there a website that lists bad preachers and bad churches. the stakes are obviously too high and there should be some sort of easily accessible internet site that lists preachers and congregations that are in danger of sending to people to hell.

[Balance]

this is a fantastic idea....

is there a website that lists bad preachers and bad churches. the stakes are obviously too high and there should be some sort of easily accessible internet site that lists preachers and congregations that are in danger of sending to people to hell.

Bad according to whom?

The difficulty is that there are lots of Christians that find cause for division for just about anything.

Who would you trust enough that it would be accurate?

[Starcrystal]

this is a fantastic idea....

is there a website that lists bad preachers and bad churches. the stakes are obviously too high and there should be some sort of easily accessible internet site that lists preachers and congregations that are in danger of sending to people to hell.

Sorry, bad idea I think.
Protestants would list Catholics. Catholics would list Protestants. Baptists would list pentecostals because some baptists believe the "gifts of the spirit" if manifest today are of the devil. Pentecostals would list baptists for denying the gifts! See where I'm going with this.

The only way such a website would be feaseable is if someone could list churches in an unbiased way and tell a little about what was being taught in an unjudgmental way. Then people could seek God to lead them by the Spirit and show where truth was and where error was.

[marke]

this is a fantastic idea....

is there a website that lists bad preachers and bad churches. the stakes are obviously too high and there should be some sort of easily accessible internet site that lists preachers and congregations that are in danger of sending to people to hell.
That's not a good idea at all. Talk about asking judgement to come upon you.

I have a better idea. Seek the truth in NT scripture and call peoples attention to the fact that there are people starving all around the world and this isn't the time for churches and preachers to be flying around in private jets, driving fancy cars and preaching wrong teaching.

These are however, the things to look for to see whom is serving themselves and whom is serving the poor.

Take the question "Where did jesus give His followers permission to kill?" The answer is no where. Over 1000 people looked at that thread and not a single line of NT scripture was presented in favor. Instead we found line after line of scripture speaking against it so where does this wrong teaching come from? The transgressors who want to believe what they want to believe and twist the word to suit their beliefs rather than conform their beliefs to the scripture.

Now it is time to stand up for Jesus. Take this information regarding killing into your churches and let them know the huge misconception that Christians can kill is very wrong teaching. If they argue, ask them to find you the scripture supporting their view. Since there is none, you have the choice of staying at that church where you know they are more interested in believing what they want to believe or find a church that is receptive to correction or already recognizes the truth.

Anyway, let's bring forth the truth and those who wish to move forward in their spiritual walk can do so. There is a reason many are called, but few are chosen. Let's strive to be among the chosen following NT scripture rather than be among the lost following fairy tales.

God Bless.

[Balance]

How about if we don't turn our churches into political venues at all?

How about if the churches just do what they were designed to do?

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

[Brian1040]

Not conforming to this world isn't about outer stuff like going to a movie theatre or being involved with politics. It's much deeper than that.


It is true that not conforming to this world is more than being involved in politics, but being involved in politics is becoming apart of this world.

Who does the Bible says is the God of this world? Who are the ones that are under the sway of Satan? Who is the responsible for setting up and removing kings/leaders, or even exalting and toppling nation? What did Jesus said about His kingdom, and what His servant would do if others wanted to harm Him? What did Satan said to Jesus when he took Him up on a high mountain? What example could one give to prove that it is fine for Christians to be involved in politics? Is it fine for Christians to be involved in any government, or are there some that they should not be involved in? How do you know which one when they are all corrupt? They all violate the rights of citizens one way or another, including the United States of America. They all knowingly violated laws (international) that they sighed and swore to obey and enforce. What is the propose for Christians involment in politics?

[imaniingod]

Praying for everyone here. Get about the Business of the Father. Fulfilling the Great Commission, Go ye in all the world declaring the Good News of THE Lord! He lives and He Reigns!

[holo]

I'm glad Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela got involved in politics and didn't leave it up to only corrupt people.

[Brian1040]

I'm glad Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela got involved in politics and didn't leave it up to only corrupt people.


Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela did not eliminate oppression and racism. Racism and oppression still exist in the U.S. and South Africa. Instead of discriminating in the open, they do it behind the person's back, and the one who was discriminated against usually does not know.

Only the kingdom of God, which Jesus will set up at His second coming will mankind truly learn to love and respect each other.

[holo]

[COLOR=black]Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela did not eliminate oppression and racism. Racism and oppression still exist in the U.S. and South Africa. Instead of discriminating in the open, they do it behind the person's back, and the one who was discriminated against usually does not know.That may be true. They didn't manage to change the entire world. I'm glad they tried though, because they had a serious impact. There a lots of black people who have jobs, education, because of them. A lot of people are probably alive as a direct result of Mandela's and King's politic work.

[seekthetruth909]

If we look at the word kill it is as an individual. That is murder and that is wrong.


There is nothing against a nation waging war or against a Christian serving in that capacity.


There is nothing that says a Christian can't join the military and nothing commanding us to do so. That tells us that it is a personal choice between the man and God. The important thing is that he be fully convinced and that he doesn't force his personal choice as a belief on others.

I haven’t researched this topic in the New Testament, so I don’t know the answer, but Marke does make a very good point about serving in the military in a non-combatant role. There was recently a post on the topic of killing at:
http://www.christianforums.com/t4097143&page=15
You will find the New Testament is very clear in this regard.
God Bless

[mont974x4]

You're right, it is clear.

There is no condemnation for serving in the military, law enforcement, or any other government agency in any capacity anywhere in Scripture. Neither are we commanded too. Therefore, we are free to choose for ourselves in prayefrul consideration listening for His leading.


With that in mind, what if we found ourselves living in a country with mandatory military service? We are to obey the laws of the land. Those who burned their draft cards here in the US not only disobeyed man but more importantly they also disobeyed God. They should have chosen a more God honoring means of voicing their belief.


Since we do have a choice at this time...
I have no problem with people choosing to not serve in those capacities. I do however, beleive they would be wrong to tell others that do choose to serve in those areas that they are wrong.

In Him
Jay

[seekthetruth909]

mont974x4;29155827 You're right, it is clear.

There is no condemnation for serving in the military, law enforcement, or any other government agency in any capacity anywhere in Scripture. Neither are we commanded too. Therefore, we are free to choose for ourselves in prayefrul consideration listening for His leading.


I agree.



With that in mind, what if we found ourselves living in a country with mandatory military service? We are to obey the laws of the land. Those who burned their draft cards here in the US not only disobeyed man but more importantly they also disobeyed God. They should have chosen a more God honoring means of voicing their belief.


I disagree. The Christian Quakers refused to join the army in the 1800's and participate in the genocide of the native Indians.
Was this disobeying God?
Many Christians believed that Vietnam was an unjust war and refused service. The bible clearly states that God’s authority supersedes human authority,

Peter and the apostles answered, ‘We must obey God rather than any human authority.’ ” —Acts 5:29

They is also this statement by Jesus to consider:
Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36




Since we do have a choice at this time...

I have no problem with people choosing to not serve in those capacities. I do however, beleive they would be wrong to tell others that do choose to serve in those areas that they are wrong.

In Him
Jay


I agree.
God Bless


"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” —Matthew 5:9

[mont974x4]

I'm not a quaker.

Also, I never said all wars are just. However, most of the wars we have fought as a nation have been just.

Also, as long as this world is a fallen world there will be a need for conflict to bring about peace.

I also believe that we, since we do have power, also have a responsibility to those who suffer and have no power to help themselves. That's why I volunteered to fight to end genocide in Kosovo...and other places.


Good night and Happy Thanksgiving.

[marke]

I'm not a quaker.

Also, I never said all wars are just. However, most of the wars we have fought as a nation have been just.

Also, as long as this world is a fallen world there will be a need for conflict to bring about peace.

I also believe that we, since we do have power, also have a responsibility to those who suffer and have no power to help themselves. That's why I volunteered to fight to end genocide in Kosovo...and other places.


Good night and Happy Thanksgiving.
Should have been a grave digger or medic or car mechanic or any other trade rather than choosing a trade where you kill another human being in direct conflict with the Ten Commandments.

Who sets policy in Christianity? Jesus or the transgressors of the teaching. I mean really. Black is black and yet we are being told that black is really white by those who want to follow their own doctrine. It's insane!

We are to conform our views to those of Jesus and as we have already discussed and proven in the post "Where does Jesus give His followers permission to kill?", you DON'T have permission to take another human life. Period.

I hope you'll see the light soon.

God bless.

[mont974x4]

By your view King David, a man after God's own heart, was wrong. As were the Isrealites when they obeyed God and went to war. How many times were they punished for not totally whiping out the enemy?

I don't recall Jesus telling the centurian to find another job, or anyone else for that matter.


You have made your choice with a clear conscience and prayer and so have I. Niether of us have the right to tell the other they are wrong in regards to this personal decision.

I guess,we'll have to agree to disagree. God bless.

[Nadiine]

Christians. Your soul is at risk. Joel Hunter is the new President of the "Christian Coalition" and he said he hopes to make the Christian Coalition "more of a grass-roots organization so that we can mobilize every Christian in America to have a political involvement as a part of their normal spiritual growth." This is really deadly wrong teaching according to New Testament scripture and a good reason to ask yourself if the "Christian Right" are leading their followers to Heaven or hell. Jesus gives us clear guidelines on how to discern right from wrong and warns time and time again not to follow blindly. There is a scriptural problem with Christians standing for or against issues of the world in that the dead don’t concern themselves with issues of the world. It’s a matter of self preservation. Correct New Testament scripture says Christians should be dead to the world allowing God to be in control. Yet the accumulators (how you know them), these ministers of misinformation whose unsubstantiated doctrine blows with the wind encourage their followers to do these very things; the very things that Jesus warns will destroy your soul. Example. The parable of the seeds, Matthew 13:22 and repeated again in Luke 8:14, shows the ministers of misinformation are deadly wrong: involvement with the world causes you to lose your salvation. These ministers of error say you can’t lose your salvation and encourage you to vote their way, condemn those they don’t like, seek riches (just like them) and involve yourself in issues of the world. In this parable, Jesus shows this to be flat out wrong teaching. Deadly to your soul even. Read the scripture yourself. Jesus says get out of the world, the "Christian Right" says get more involved. Who are you going to follow?

Have you actually thought about this way of thinking?

We all stop voting against abortion... so it STAYS legal? :sick:
We all stop voting against homosexual agendas, so gay marriage becomes legal & stays that way? :sick:

If our country is FREE and allows us to vote for those who appear to be siding w/ Godly moral values, then why is voting evil??

Isn't it MORE evil if we as Christians shut up and step aside from the voting process to BE MUTE while we let the ungodly make all the decisions to keep society a-moral and anti God?

Aren't we called to let our lights shine and not hide them?
ps. where does the Bible say I cannot vote?

I WILL VOTE every election to do my part as a Believer to work against immoral laws that my tax dollar is going toward until my Lord takes me home.:amen:

[pdfiddler]

mont974x4 King David was not allowed to partake of the building of the temple because of the blood on his hands.
Marke,it is refreshing to read your views!:)

[Nadiine]

mont974x4 King David was not allowed to partake of the building of the temple because of the blood on his hands.
Marke,it is refreshing to read your views!:)

Before you use this claim to support your anti-war rally, you may want to read these IMPORTANT verses as to David's standing with God:

Ps. 89:34-37 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Rom 1:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom001.html#3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
2Ti 2:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti002.html#8) Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Is. 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Mat 21:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat021.html#9) And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Does this sound like God is passing David by because he was in war?
Jesus is the Son of David and he wasn't too "bloody" to be of his seed, but God is anti war becuz he couldn't build His temple? :scratch:

Is God the author of confusion? Simply because God had another build His temple is NOT by any means proof that God is ANTI War... not then OR today.
God found David fit enough to covenant with directly and come from his seed.

[mont974x4]

True, but David was still called a man after Gods own heart. Perhaps the best thing to do is look at the why of the war...not war itself. Thus, why I support a just war as opposed to just any war.

[imaniingod]

Any immorality is wrong. God's word is true and as Christians we need to uphold biblical principles. I am praying for this forum. Lean not unto your own understanding but stand on the word OF GOD. God bless you

[seekthetruth909]

mont974x4 King David was not allowed to partake of the building of the temple because of the blood on his hands.
Marke,it is refreshing to read your views!:)

Actually it’s irrelevant. In the Old Testament the Jewish people were under a different set of rules. Following their religion today, they would be justified in their acts of war. We are not under Jewish law, we are Christians so we must follow the teachings of Jesus.
What does Jesus say in regards to following the law of the Old Testament?


Galatians 3:25 “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Galatians 3:23 “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.”

Galatians 3:11 “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” [ Heb. 2:4]

Hebrews 8:7 “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”


What does Jesus say in regards to our enemies?


Instead of an “eye for an eye,” Jesus said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” —Matthew 5:38,44

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? Matthew 5:46

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Luke 6:27

Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. . .’ ” —John 18:36

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” —Matthew 5:9


1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

Philippians 2:3 "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves."

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Galatians 5:14

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. James 2:8

[ Love one another ] This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 1 John 3:11

“Do not repay anyone evil for evil . . . Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath.” —Romans 12:17,19



God Bless

[seekthetruth909]

I'm not a quaker.

Also, I never said all wars are just. However, most of the wars we have fought as a nation have been just.

Also, as long as this world is a fallen world there will be a need for conflict to bring about peace.

I also believe that we, since we do have power, also have a responsibility to those who suffer and have no power to help themselves. That's why I volunteered to fight to end genocide in Kosovo...and other places.


Good night and Happy Thanksgiving.

I would like to commend you for going to Kosovo. The bible also says "Blessed are the peacekeepers,for they shall be called the sons of God." This could refer to peacekeeping troops.

God Bless

[seekthetruth909]

Have you actually thought about this way of thinking?

We all stop voting against abortion... so it STAYS legal? :sick:
We all stop voting against homosexual agendas, so gay marriage becomes legal & stays that way? :sick:

If our country is FREE and allows us to vote for those who appear to be siding w/ Godly moral values, then why is voting evil??

Isn't it MORE evil if we as Christians shut up and step aside from the voting process to BE MUTE while we let the ungodly make all the decisions to keep society a-moral and anti God?

Aren't we called to let our lights shine and not hide them?
ps. where does the Bible say I cannot vote?

I WILL VOTE every election to do my part as a Believer to work against immoral laws that my tax dollar is going toward until my Lord takes me home.:amen:

You do have a good point! Personally I basically feel the same way. We should do our part to make this world a better place. But unfortunately my opinion no longer counts. Only God’s commands apply! A couple of years ago I suffered a tragedy in my life, which made me examine my Christianity. From this experience I decided to submit myself completely to The Word. If we truly believe in the inerrancy of the bible we have to set aside our personal views and follow The Word of God

What does the bible say about being politically active? I don’t know, I haven’t researched the scripture on this topic. Someone else may have some scripture to offer to help us understand God’s will on this subject. I just have one question to ponder: Why did Jesus and the apostles avoid politics?

God Bless

[mont974x4]

Seeker, it was my pleasure and an honor.

[marke]

Have you actually thought about this way of thinking?

We all stop voting against abortion... so it STAYS legal? :sick:
We all stop voting against homosexual agendas, so gay marriage becomes legal & stays that way? :sick:

If our country is FREE and allows us to vote for those who appear to be siding w/ Godly moral values, then why is voting evil??

Isn't it MORE evil if we as Christians shut up and step aside from the voting process to BE MUTE while we let the ungodly make all the decisions to keep society a-moral and anti God?

Aren't we called to let our lights shine and not hide them?
ps. where does the Bible say I cannot vote?

I WILL VOTE every election to do my part as a Believer to work against immoral laws that my tax dollar is going toward until my Lord takes me home.:amen:
Where is your faith? You think evil will progress in the world because you vote or not? Don't be silly. Doesn't God control everything? PSM 139 seems to think so and so does scripture after scripture after scripture. Jesus says not a sparrow falls without his leave and aren't you more important than a sparrow? Wouldn't that include the unborn too? Everything is unfolding just as God allows.

And who said that you are to judge people outside the church? Somebody who is telling you fairy tales and leading you astray as per the OP.

Just look what you are doing to yourself. Did you miss the part where Jesus told the person without sin to cast the first stone. Are you without sin? Abortion is none of your business. Gay marriage is none of your business. Involving yourself in issues of the world are none of your business. In fact, all of the above harm your soul if you pursue them. That's NT scripture.

And where does the church get all high and mighty. If they want to kick the gays in the teeth outside the church, how about all the divorced people inside the church. Why are they not booting them out? A whole lot more text banning divorce can be found than can be found concerning gays.

How does their marriage harm you? It doesn't. Only by YOU condemning YOURSELF as per Romans 2:1. Do you think gays appreciate you standing against them being treated like other couples in a relationship? Probably not. So why are you doing it? If you are not doing unto them as you would like done to you, you shouldn't be doing it.

There is a crisis inside the church, solve those problems before you go outside the church.

Jesus tells us follow a blind person and you'll both fall into a ditch. Follow NT scripture instead of fairy tales and you would have agreed with the OP rather than oppose it.

Save your soul. Let God run the world. You help fix the problems inside the church if you want to get involved.

God bless.

[marke]

Any immorality is wrong. God's word is true and as Christians we need to uphold biblical principles. I am praying for this forum. Lean not unto your own understanding but stand on the word OF GOD. God bless you
Yes.

God Bless

[pdfiddler]

The cares of the world are a weight on a believers shoulders. It was for freedom that Christ set us free.We as believers cannot serve two masters. We are to be in the world not of the world. Those of the world seek after the concerns of the world.And the world loved them. Our concerns as believers are of the Kingdom Of God ( Gods family or Gods nation). Politics and war are of the world. Our Kingdom(nation) is not of this world. We have to be free, in order to be free to serve as a bond servant.The Kingdom of God is spiritual. The world is earthly and perishing and those of the world are perishing also. Those of the Kingdom have eternal life.It is the faith ,love and the nonconcern for the affairs of the world without fear that will set us as a light on a stand in the days to come.

[Nadiine]

Where is your faith? You think evil will progress in the world because you vote or not? Don't be silly. Doesn't God control everything? PSM 139 seems to think so and so does scripture after scripture after scripture. Jesus says not a sparrow falls without his leave and aren't you more important than a sparrow? Wouldn't that include the unborn too? Everything is unfolding just as God allows.


Well, what is FAITH without works? How do we claim faith, then NOT DO anything?
By the way, THIS IS YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION/ spin on scripture. The bible doesn't SAY this.
You've taken some verses to mean this because it's your opinion.

So let me get this right, YOU think 'faith' means, just PRAY, and God will fix it supernaturally WITHOUT USING ANY OF HIS PEOPLE?

So, as the Good Samaritan story goes, we as Christians should just pass by the broken, starving, poor beggar laying by the road to say, "sorry, I can't help you, I can't lift a finger becuz I HAVE FAITH THAT GOD WILL FEED & CLOTHE YOU".

Don't be involved, just expect God to supernaturally fix everything WITHOUT YOUR INVOLVEMENT?
Did it occur to you THAT GOD USES US IN HIS PLANS?

We are His soldiers (as Paul aptly puts it). He saved us so that we would work against evil down here, and be involved in all aspects of life.
Are you aware that the Bible uses WAR terminology in spiritual "battle"? God sure seems to think we're in a war...
Rev 12:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev012.html#7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 19:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev019.html#11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
2Ti 2:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti002.html#3) Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti002.html#4) No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

I see this mindset too with giving Offerings or tithes to the church... some say, "God doesn't NEED our money"....well, I'd like to know how much gets done without ANY money in our system where money is used.
God had them bring in tithes & offerings in BOTH Bible testaments, BUT TODAY, HE MIRACULOUSLY DOESN'T NEED US to give?
Again, don't DO anything, just pray it gets done. (let someone else do it)

Just look what you are doing to yourself. Did you miss the part where Jesus told the person without sin to cast the first stone. Are you without sin? Abortion is none of your business. Gay marriage is none of your business. Involving yourself in issues of the world are none of your business. In fact, all of the above harm your soul if you pursue them. That's NT scripture.


What am I doing to myself?:confused: :scratch:
I claim that they want the country run like Sodom & Gomorrah... and want to kick God OUT of all society (which the ACLU is in the process of). If you can't properly define judging, then please don't accuse others of it.
I CAN judge that homosexuality is moral sin.

They aren't OUR business??? AS WE RAISE FAMILIES IN A SOCIETY LIKE SODOM & GOMORRAH? While we watch people's lives fall apart due to decay of sin??
THAT'S NOT OUR BUSINESS? :groupray: If they're none of our business, then we shouldn't bother to PRAY for them either.

What is our business as believers? Cowering in our little houses while the LOST run the world for us becuz we're too 'holy':holy: to get our hands roughed up?
Have you even read what happens to society when corruption takes it over? Read all the people crying out to God for help & for justice as they're lives are ruined by injustice (which we already see in our court & educational systems). It effects us all.

Jesus tells us follow a blind person and you'll both fall into a ditch. Follow NT scripture instead of fairy tales and you would have agreed with the OP rather than oppose it.
Yes, He does... did you ever stop to think that those who disagree with you, AREN'T THE BLIND ONES?:doh:
(MOST people who use that verse never stop to think that they may actually be the one the verse is about!).

There is a crisis inside the church, solve those problems before you go outside the church.
So, I need to personally go FIX every church that you deem "bad", before I can call SIN what it is?
I AM THE CHURCH - God's people are the true church.
I solve the problem by keeping my OWN life right before God.

How does their marriage harm you? It doesn't. Only by YOU condemning YOURSELF as per Romans 2:1. Do you think gays appreciate you standing against them being treated like other couples in a relationship? Probably not. So why are you doing it? If you are not doing unto them as you would like done to you, you shouldn't be doing it

ARE YOU IN SUPPORT OF HOMOSEXUALITY? You sound supportive of their lifestyle.

Before you use verses on wrongful judging & the blind leading the blind, please make sure it's not yourself first.

[pdfiddler]

Nadiine

You need to get some sleep.:sleep:

[Nadiine]

Nadiine

You need to get some sleep.:sleep:

Why do you say this?

[pdfiddler]

It sounds a little like ranting.

[Nadiine]

It sounds a little like ranting.
If my reply sounds like ranting, then why didn't you ask the thread starter if he needed some sleep?
Did you read the OP? :help: Here an excerpt in case you missed it:

Christians. Your soul is at risk.
:sigh:

[Nadiine]

:preach:
In the political realm do we simply turn a blind eye to the worldly, or do we when given the opportunity, intervene and use our judgement to descern good from evil and do what is in our ability to stand against wickedness?
Let's look....

God has given Dominion of this earth to mankind, and has instructed us to subdue it. That means to bring it under our authority and control.
Remember, Adam and his descendents are called the children of God.
That is who has the authorization from God to excercise dominion over this earth.
The sons of darkness, the wicked ones, have ussurped this authority and have convinced many that this world belongs to them.
It does not!


The sons of Adam have "godlike" knowlegde and understanding of Good and Evil, and the ability to descern and exercise judgements based upon that knowledge.



God asks us, his children, "How long will ye judge unjustly,
and accept the persons of the wicked?"
How long will we stand by and do nothing even though we posess both the descernment, and the authority as the "gods" of our dominion, to intervene, take back control, and do what we know to be right?

God says that He is standing in the congregation of the mighty (His Church, The Body of Christ). And that He is present among us "the gods of our dominion" as judgements are passed. But we are judging unjustly, we are accepting these wicked persons.....God asks, How long will we continue to do this?
When we as a congregation make it our choice to do nothing, then God will do nothing.....we have dominion, it is for us to subdue, to bring under our control....not God. Yes, God can do it, but that is not God's Will.
God will work with us and through us, but not for us.
God is not our servant, We are His servants, We do the tasks with God's assistance and Authority from Him.
God is simply waiting for us to step up so that He can work His way through us. We are the Body, We are the Arms, The Legs, The Hands, The Feet, with which to carry out His Works.



Ask yourself.....who did the Word of God come to?
Have you recieved The Word into your life?
Can Scripture be broken?
Are Christians said to be called the children of God?
Are you a part of the Congregation of the Mighty?
Then I ask you...
How long will you continue to judge unjustly?
How long will you continue to accept wicked politicians with ungodly and evil agendas as your leaders?
Arise and Defend the poor and fatherless:
Arise and do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Arise and Deliver the poor and needy:
Arise and Remove them out of the hand of the wicked.
Our Worldly Political Leaders, they know not, neither will they understand for they walk in darkness:
Are not the foundations of the earth out of course?
Is there not disorder and inequity in our Government Policies, both domestic and international?
"We The People...."
"Government Of The People, By The People, and For The People"
Do we not possess the authority and the moral necessity to hold our leadership accountable?
What they do, they do in our name, under our sanction, supported by our vote.
"Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
Stand in One, United Voice, and VOTE.....
Descern and pass judgement upon that which is wicked.

Excellent analysis tied together using scripture.

[Nadiine]

I believe you may be very correct. For instance, this government of ours has ongoing normal relations with China, and some trade with Viet Nam and the Muslim nations. In China and in Viet Nam and some of the Muslim nations are many, many Christian martyrs. They are imprisoned, starved and tortured, and even executed or just plain murdered. Does our wonderful right or left wing partys do anything about it? NO. It is never even a subject of discussion.

So what is YOUR solution to us dealing with the problems? You say they do nothing, but I'd like to know what your solution is to stop it exactly?

The world community isn't what it was decades ago, where we just 'go in & take care of business'.... you cannot just go & start sanctioning anywhere you please; you have a world system that has to agree to it now.
The govt. (and private orgs. & individuals) HAVE TRIED to help the Sudan situation but the world community is supressing it.
For the most part, our hands are completely TIED until other countries agree to do anything. That's a fact.

Long gone are the days where you just handle your own issues & take matters into your own hands - it's got to be thru the UN (united nations). & Look at all it's taken just to deal with Iran!

And, how DO you rescue innocent people from Genocide? Fly out to china & nicely ask them to change their entire communist system?
War-military might, retaliation, opposition are what you need. (and, you need elected officials who make the decisions to go in militarily to stop the murdererings & persecution).

God used plagues & the Red Sea in Egypt - that sure got their attn. & freed the slaves. (mainly becuz God was Israel's protector & they had no army to retaliate with.. HE used might).

[mont974x4]

God does not change. He has always used war and capital punishment to exact His justice and He has always had godly men serve during those times.

[seekthetruth909]

[quote=marke;29209612]

And where does the church get all high and mighty. If they want to kick the gays in the teeth outside the church, how about all the divorced people inside the church. Why are they not booting them out? A whole lot more text banning divorce can be found than can be found concerning gays.

quote]

Excellent point! I have often wondered about this myself. A pastor I knew made some observations concerning this: In public Christian demonstrations against gays many of those participating are divorced for unbiblical reasons and are according to Jesus committing adultery. He also said many pastors avoid preaching on this issue [along with gluttony which is another sin churches avoid] because they don’t want to offend their members. Instead they preach on different sins that non-members commit. His whole point was: Why do we make a big deal about the sins non-Christians commit but avoid other sins that Christians commit? Shouldn’t churches be more concerned with their members taking responsibility for their actions and growing more spiritual? I guess it is always easier to judge the house next door than your own house. If we do decide to take a judgmental attitude why not judge all sins including our own?

God Bless all and have a good night.


Matthew 7:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

[seekthetruth909]

Well, what is FAITH without works? How do we claim faith, then NOT DO anything?
By the way, THIS IS YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION/ spin on scripture. The bible doesn't SAY this.
You've taken some verses to mean this because it's your opinion.

So let me get this right, YOU think 'faith' means, just PRAY, and God will fix it supernaturally WITHOUT USING ANY OF HIS PEOPLE?

So, as the Good Samaritan story goes, we as Christians should just pass by the broken, starving, poor beggar laying by the road to say, "sorry, I can't help you, I can't lift a finger becuz I HAVE FAITH THAT GOD WILL FEED & CLOTHE YOU".

Don't be involved, just expect God to supernaturally fix everything WITHOUT YOUR INVOLVEMENT?
Did it occur to you THAT GOD USES US IN HIS PLANS?

We are His soldiers (as Paul aptly puts it). He saved us so that we would work against evil down here, and be involved in all aspects of life.
Are you aware that the Bible uses WAR terminology in spiritual "battle"? God sure seems to think we're in a war...
Rev 12:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev012.html#7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 19:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev019.html#11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
2Ti 2:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti002.html#3) Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti002.html#4) No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

I see this mindset too with giving Offerings or tithes to the church... some say, "God doesn't NEED our money"....well, I'd like to know how much gets done without ANY money in our system where money is used.
God had them bring in tithes & offerings in BOTH Bible testaments, BUT TODAY, HE MIRACULOUSLY DOESN'T NEED US to give?
Again, don't DO anything, just pray it gets done. (let someone else do it)



What am I doing to myself?:confused: :scratch:
I claim that they want the country run like Sodom & Gomorrah... and want to kick God OUT of all society (which the ACLU is in the process of). If you can't properly define judging, then please don't accuse others of it.
I CAN judge that homosexuality is moral sin.

They aren't OUR business??? AS WE RAISE FAMILIES IN A SOCIETY LIKE SODOM & GOMORRAH? While we watch people's lives fall apart due to decay of sin??
THAT'S NOT OUR BUSINESS? :groupray: If they're none of our business, then we shouldn't bother to PRAY for them either.

What is our business as believers? Cowering in our little houses while the LOST run the world for us becuz we're too 'holy':holy: to get our hands roughed up?
Have you even read what happens to society when corruption takes it over? Read all the people crying out to God for help & for justice as they're lives are ruined by injustice (which we already see in our court & educational systems). It effects us all.


Yes, He does... did you ever stop to think that those who disagree with you, AREN'T THE BLIND ONES?:doh:
(MOST people who use that verse never stop to think that they may actually be the one the verse is about!).


So, I need to personally go FIX every church that you deem "bad", before I can call SIN what it is?
I AM THE CHURCH - God's people are the true church.
I solve the problem by keeping my OWN life right before God.



ARE YOU IN SUPPORT OF HOMOSEXUALITY? You sound supportive of their lifestyle.

Before you use verses on wrongful judging & the blind leading the blind, please make sure it's not yourself first.

Good point! But the question is, which type of action?


James 2
Faith and Deeds 14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

I John 3:16-18, "We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little chidren, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth."

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.


Matt 25:44 "Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

[Nadiine]

[quote]

Excellent point! I have often wondered about this myself. A pastor I knew made some observations concerning this: In public Christian demonstrations against gays many of those participating are divorced for unbiblical reasons and are according to Jesus committing adultery. He also said many pastors avoid preaching on this issue [along with gluttony which is another sin churches avoid] because they don’t want to offend their members. Instead they preach on different sins that non-members commit. His whole point was: Why do we make a big deal about the sins non-Christians commit but avoid other sins that Christians commit? Shouldn’t churches be more concerned with their members taking responsibility for their actions and growing more spiritual? I guess it is always easier to judge the house next door than your own house. If we do decide to take a judgmental attitude why not judge all sins including our own?

RE: this post:

Originally Posted by marke http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=29209612#post29209612)

And where does the church get all high and mighty. If they want to kick the gays in the teeth outside the church, how about all the divorced people inside the church. Why are they not booting them out? A whole lot more text banning divorce can be found than can be found concerning gays.


First of all, both your points have some merit. However, one reason (at least in the USA) that homosexuality is the 'hot button' issue, is because of the homosexual community's strong fight to get Gay marriage legalized.

It isn't just random & arbitrary that the church "picks out this sin" to point at so they can ignore the one's theyr'e guilty of (we can't know their motives behind it).
The gay community is uprising and heavily lobbying to be openly accepted in society which brings up serious moral concerns that effect us all.

So I don't agree that they're just randomly picking out THIS SIN out of hat so they can ignore others they might be doing - I think it pertains to the current moral/political situation right now. :)

(to marke specifically)-
And, lets also not claim the church is "kicking their teeth in". That's just false & extreme. To call sin what it is, IS NOT kicking in teeth; anymore than telling a Christian that 'gossip' is sin is 'kicking in their teeth'.
Preaching the whole truth of God is a Shepherd/teacher's mandate from God. Homosexuality included.

Remember, Jesus came in LOVE and because of His teachings (on issues of HIS day, ie Religiosity), He was called a devil, a drunkard & blasphemer - with threats on His life by enemies from all sides.
Religious hypocrisy is JUST as sinful as homosexuality; yet by reading your posts, you have NO problem correcting THAT sin in the church as YOU see it, right?
It's only OK when YOU support it, if others hit on your 'sore spot', it's NOT ok anymore... (it's 'kicking teeth in')
See the problem??

The Truth is, yes, WE ALL SIN, but THAT IS NO LICENSE TO CONDONE ANY OF IT.

With that said, I agree, ALL sins need to be tou