Statues and Images....

[jukesk9]

Well, I'm still struggling over which Icon I'm going to purchase.  My wife *sigh* needs to make sure the one we get will "go with" the colors in the kitchen.  Please, like that matters.

Anyway, I was reading from The Handbook of Denominations (or something similar to that title) at Barnes and Noble this morning about the Orthodox Church.  And according to this book, the Orthodox Church does not permit the 3D carvings, statues, etc.  It did not elaborate but rather talked about using Icons instead.  So why no statues.  I thought the Orthodox Church had them.  I guess the Orthodox Church wouldn't use a crucifix either?

[CopticOrthodox]

Icons and statues aren't really equivalent things. Statues in a Catholic Church are there for education, to call the mind to heaven, to help focus prayer, etc. But they're just statues, there's nothing to them other than being statues. Icons are more than that. They have to be written in a very specific way. The person writting them must do the appropriate fasting, and must first paint all the dark colours, progressing to the lighter ones. When they are ready, icons (for use in Churches) must be consecrated by a bishop. They become prayer in wood and paint. They become windows to heaven. Also, statues are just representations of the person they depict, like a portrait, but icons asn't like this. They are not meant to "look like" the way the saint physically looked. They're meant to be a visual expression of theology and biography, which is why we say they are written and not painted. For example, a long beard doesn't necessarily mean the person had a long beard, but that they were great in their asceticism, a long forhead represents wisdom, etc. They are always peaceful, since they are connecting us to someone who is in heaven, and has finished thier strife. So a statue really isn't a suitable substitute for icons. Also, while statues are not needed in a Catholic Church, our icons are not optional. There must be at least the minium icons on the iconostasis, and if the Liturgy must be celebrated somewhere else (eg for construction), icons are taken too. No, there isn't a crucifix in an Orthodox Church, but there is always an icon of the Crucifixion above the icon of the Last Supper, above the door to the sanctuary.

[jukesk9]

That was very informative. Thank you.

[MissytheButterfly]

Wow, that was interesting.. very informative post !

Missy

[Miss Shelby]

[B]1st April 2003 at 03:34 PM jukesk9 said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=754469#post754469)

Well, I'm still struggling over which Icon I'm going to purchase.  My wife *sigh* needs to make sure the one we get will "go with" the colors in the kitchen.  Please, like that matters.



It matters, jukes. :) ;)

Michelle

[jukesk9]

I guess that's why my velvet John Wayne didn't make it from the Bachelor Pad....

[Miss Shelby]

My husband shot an albino pheasant when he was a kid and he had it stuffed. When we got married he wanted to keep that thing in the living room. LOL! I said no flipping way!

Michelle

[MissytheButterfly]

Hey Jukes, why don't you try to kinda hint around to find out what your wife is interested in ask her specific questions very casually or say you heard about a certain icon (blah, blah, blah) and was wondering what she thought.. you gotta be creative with a woman.. LOL! .. like if a certain icon of something is her favorite, get a really really awesome one like that.. one that would take her breath away. She will definitely appreciate the thought behind it and the fact that she didn't have to actually come right out and tell you.

Also if you go to the store ask the clerk or know some other ladies like your mother-in-law, a close friend of hers you could ask what exactly goes with your kitchen scheme, that way you will be sure to get a good match.

By the way, I think it's pretty cool that you want to please your wife.. so don't say things like "like the kitchen matters" because it does apparently to your wife.. and frankly, I think it rocks you even care.. some husband's couldn't care less..

Missy

[sklippstein]

3rd April 2003 at 10:55 AM Miss Shelby said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=759721#post759721)

My husband shot an albino pheasant when he was a kid and he had it stuffed. When we got married he wanted to keep that thing in the living room. LOL! I said no flipping way!

Michelle




EWWWWWWWW :sick:

[Miss Shelby]

Tell me about it, slip.  That thing had red eyeballs.  :sick:   Very few things did I ever exercise my authority on, but that was one of them.

Michelle

[MissytheButterfly]

Bleh! LOL!

Missy

[MariaRegina]

No, there isn't a crucifix in an Orthodox Church, but there is always an icon of the Crucifixion above the icon of the Last Supper, above the door to the sanctuary.

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is Risen!

Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there are at least two depictions of the crucifixion. The crucifix (especially the processional cross) depicts Christ peacefully resting on the Cross in icon style. Sometimes I have also seen a more western cross used in processionals. There is also an icon of the crucifixion with Mary the Theotokos and John the Evangelist standing beneath the cross. This is usually the cross which is used above the Altar doors on the Iconostasis.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[Maximus]

Here's a question for you all, but I must introduce it first.

I often go for walks and take my baby daughter Anna in her stroller. We always walk through the grounds of the local Roman Catholic Church. Sometimes I sit on a bench near the Stations of the Cross and a very beautiful flower garden. It is peaceful and I get a wonderful feeling there.

I make the Sign of the Cross because I know the Body of Christ is present in the Church.

There is a statue of Our Lady and I often stop and address a prayer to Mother Mary before it. It feels great.

I know we don't generally use statues in the Orthodox Church, so here's the question:

Am I doing something wrong?

If so, please cite some authority that says so.

[CopticOrthodox]

I don't think so. We don't use them liturgucally, but there's no rule against personal use. The book store at my church sells some small Catholic statues. Icons are so much more than statues, but I don't think there's anything wrong with praying before a statue, since there'd be nothing wrong with praying before nothing, right?

[Maximus]

I don't think so. We don't use them liturgucally, but there's no rule against personal use. The book store at my church sells some small Catholic statues. Icons are so much more than statues, but I don't think there's anything wrong with praying before a statue, since there'd be nothing wrong with praying before nothing, right?

Thanks, Coptic. That's what I thought, too. Besides, I am addressing Mother Mary, not the statue itself, which is made of painted cement (or something).

I know feeling isn't everything, but I do feel that she is there with me or that she sees me when I ask her to pray for me.

[Philip]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I would be uncomfortable doing it. Probably some leftover Protestantism. I love icons. They appear much more heavenly than statues. Not sure if I can explain it any better than by saying, "Icons are better."

[Maximus]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I would be uncomfortable doing it. Probably some leftover Protestantism. I love icons. They appear much more heavenly than statues. Not sure if I can explain it any better than by saying, "Icons are better."

I agree that icons are better.

Maybe statues are a bit like 3-D icons? (I understand the difference guys; so don't jump all over me!)

I can relate to the feeling of leftover Protestantism. I suffered from that for awhile. Now it feels so liberating to be able to venerate the Mother of God and the saints and to ask them to pray for me: even the statues don't bother me anymore!

[MariaRegina]

Here's a question for you all, but I must introduce it first.

There is a statue of Our Lady and I often stop and address a prayer to Mother Mary before it. It feels great.

I know we don't generally use statues in the Orthodox Church, so here's the question:

Am I doing something wrong?

My Dearest Joy, Maximus,

Christ is in our midst!

I am still relatively new in Orthodoxy as I was chrismated on April 6, 1996. However, I do know several young Orthodox priests who have blessed the statue of Our Lady of Fatima, or even the Icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe, when the senior Priest wasn't around. The priest knew that his parishioner wouldn't worship the statue. That's the real issue!

However, sin can occur when you knowingly or unknowingly cause someone to stumble. It could be a question of possibly scandalizing a new member in your parish or causing confused ecclesiology in a child. If that child grows up thinking that it is okay to visit a Roman Catholic Church, then she may think that it is okay to receive Communion in that church. So if she does receive communion in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Priest learns about it, then there is a problem.

If the Orthodox Priest reprimands, at least four outcomes are possible:
(l) The person corrected could accept the penance and be forbidden to receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church for up to three years.
(2) When other parishioners find out about the penance, they could become upset and attack the priest or leave the church.
(3) The person corrected could become upset, lose the faith and stop attending church.
(4) The person corrected could join the Catholic or the Protestant Church.

I've known people in that situation who each chose one of the four scenarios listed. It's tragic to see someone leave the faith.

There is nothing wrong with passing through the garden, just don't linger. And yes, I think it is far better to have a picture or statue of Our Lady of Fatima in your home than one of Michael Jackson, M&M, or Marilyn Manson in your teen's bedroom, excuse the comparison.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

Here's a question for you all, but I must introduce it first.

I often go for walks and take my baby daughter Anna in her stroller. We always walk through the grounds of the local Roman Catholic Church. Sometimes I sit on a bench near the Stations of the Cross and a very beautiful flower garden. It is peaceful and I get a wonderful feeling there.

I make the Sign of the Cross because I know the Body of Christ is present in the Church.

There is a statue of Our Lady and I often stop and address a prayer to Mother Mary before it. It feels great.

I know we don't generally use statues in the Orthodox Church, so here's the question:

Am I doing something wrong?

If so, please cite some authority that says so.
You are doing nothing wrong.
Jeff the Finn

[brewmama]

I read a few weeks ago in an Orthodox publication that statues are totally accepted in the Orthodox tradition and many beautiful statues from Russia are becoming known. It will take a while to track it down, (maybe next week at church) but I can if you want me to give you names and sources. I say relax and pray.

[MariaRegina]

I read a few weeks ago in an Orthodox publication that statues are totally accepted in the Orthodox tradition and many beautiful statues from Russia are becoming known.

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is in our midst!

I think you are all missing the point.

Sure it's not a sin to pray. Indeed St. Paul tells us to pray unceasingly.

But it's the PLACE where one prays in public that's important.

SHOULD A CATHOLIC OR CHRISTIAN PROSTRATE INSIDE A MOSQUE?

Praying in a Roman Catholic garden and making the sign of the Cross in front of the Catholic Church, give the impression that all is well and that we have sacramental unity. WE DON'T HAVE SACRAMENTAL UNITY. Therefore, we can unknowingly cause confusion in the very young regarding ecclesiology. We can also unknowingly sin or cause scandal with serious consequences later on.

This is a harsh reality to face, and it brings me to tears that we don't have unity yet. I do pray that one day we will be one, but I don't want a false union either.

Recently I attended the funeral of a Catholic friend. My Orthodox Priest said that I could go, but that I wasn't allowed to participate in the Funeral Mass in any way. I could not sing, say their prayers, nor receive communion. It was hard. Nevertheless, my friends were grateful that I came. Since I could not participate at the funeral which I did attend, I helped with the food at the Mercy Meal that followed. The relatives were very touched.

STATUES FROM RUSSIA

You must also realize that Russia was heavily influenced by the West with artists from Italy decorating their churches. Several Tsars were responsible for bringing the Jesuits and other orders into Russia to educate the royalty. What happened? Where do you think the Russian Greek Catholic Church came from? Russia was also heavily influenced by the Vatican during the time of the Polish captivity.

BTW: Isn't it interesting that the grass is greener on the other side?
Some Catholic Dioceses are doing away with statues in their churches and some are even replacing statues with icons. In fact, the major customers of icons at most Orthodox Monasteries are now Catholics. Are the Orthodox now buying statues? I haven't heard that one yet but perhaps the Russians are?

Is the Sunday of Orthodoxy going to be banned soon? Each year on that Sunday we boldly proclaim, "This is the Orthodox Faith."

YSIC,

Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is in our midst!

Praying in a Roman Catholic garden and making the sign of the Cross in front of the Catholic Church, give the impression that all is well and that we have sacramental unity. WE DON'T HAVE SACRAMENTAL UNITY. Therefore, we can unknowingly cause confusion in the very young regarding ecclesiology. We can also unknowingly sin or cause scandal with serious consequences later on.
This is a harsh reality to face, and it brings me to tears that we don't have unity yet. I do pray that one day we will be one, but I don't want a false union either.
Recently I attended the funeral of a Catholic friend. My Orthodox Priest said that I could go, but that I wasn't allowed to participate in the Funeral Mass in any way. I could not sing, say their prayers, nor receive communion. It was hard. Nevertheless, my friends were grateful that I came. Since I could not participate at the funeral which I did attend, I helped with the food at the Mercy Meal that followed. The relatives were very touched.
Elizabeth
I find your views highly legalistic and not Orthodoxy as I know it. Praying in a Catholic garden in no way implies unity, and I fail to see how that would cause confusion to anyone. We are not to take communion in a non-Orthodox Church, but there is no reason why one would not sing or even pray. My priest has gone to two Lutheran funerals and did not stand off to the side at either one of them. "We can also unknowingly sin or cause scandal with serious consequences later on." That sounds like it came from a Protestant legalist on why someone should not have a pint of beer when was hot and needed a tall cool one.
Jeff the Finn

[CopticOrthodox]

I think that praying in a Catholic garden is a lot different than participating in a Catholic Mass.

As for the Mass, I don't know, it seems to be an area of a lot of debate. I think it's best to leave those situations to the guidance of one's Father of Confession rather than trying to make broad rules.

[Maximus]

I appreciate everyone's input.

Of course, my original question had to do with praying before a statue of the Blessed Virgin and nothing to do with attending Mass or prostrating oneself in a mosque.

I am not attempting to receive the Eucharist in the RCC nor am I thinking of going RC (although I do have the utmost respect for the RCC).

I drive over an hour one way to attend my Orthodox Church. The Roman Catholic Church is within walking distance of my home. Obviously, it is easier, when out for a walk, to end up at St. John's RCC than it is to end up at my own church!

I enjoy the flower garden and the tranquility at St. John's. It's a good place to stop, rest, pray, and read a book in the shade.

I have not yet sorted out how an Orthodox Christian should regard the RCC, but I cannot see it as heretical; and no Orthodox council has ever declared it so.

That's why you won't generally catch me involved in arguments with Roman Catholics on this or any other web site. We have too much in common and, IMHO, should be focusing on that.

There are too many real heretics and unbelievers out there for me to worry about quibbling with people who will agree with me 99.9% of the time.

[MariaRegina]

I find your views highly legalistic
Jeff the Finn

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him Forever!

One of your OCA bishops recently went to his mother's funeral in a non-Orthodox Church, didn't participate and publicly confessed that he promptly went to confession afterward.

Is he being legalistic?

I have to obey my priests; I promised obedience to the Church when I was chrismated. If my obedience seems legalistic to you, then the one who told me not to participate in my friend's funeral was legalistic too in your opinion.

Where does the judgmental flaming stop? Let us love one another and stop judging.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him Forever!
I have to obey my priests; I promised obedience to the Church when I was chrismated. If my obedience seems legalistic to you, then the one who told me not to participate in my friend's funeral was legalistic too in your opinion.
YSIC
Elizabeth

I am not in the habit of asking my priest what to do or not do, as I am not under obedience to him, he is not my startz that I owe absolute obiedence to. I ask and he may give me advise, but that is all. My priest did not chew me out for speaking at my sister's Lutheran funeral, which he attended, let alone chew me out for singing the hymns. He also attended my dad's Lutheran funeral.
In 1985 I witnessed an Orthodox-Episcopal Funeral, which the Episcopal Church was the site and it had the Episcopal priest and reader which was myself, and a Greek Orthodox Priest and Cantor. The service was most interesting! The purests probably thought that Fr John the Greek Priest was way out of line, but he no doubt had the approval of his Bishop.
Never has anyone ever told me never to attend another church. The last I knew Orthodox were not JW's or some sort of cult. As long as one is not skipping a liturgy, to attend another church, and as long as you are not communing there, there is no problem whatsoever. As far as the Bishop is concerned, he may have felt that his presence met something that it did not, but as lay folks and low level clergy such amazement does not attend us.
Jeff the Finn

[MariaRegina]

I am not in the habit of asking my priest what to do or not do, as I am not under obedience to him...
Jeff the Finn

My Dearest Jeff: joy in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

I guess Orthodoxy is unique because every person is unique. In my case I was in a Catholic monastery for three years as a novice.

The Orthodox Priest said that because of that commitment I made, even though no vows were taken, I really should not have married. You are probably aware that once an Orthodox monastic becomes a novice they are forbidden to marry. However, no impediments to marriage were noted by the Catholic priest who married us. So if my husband dies before I do, I am pretty certain that I will be advised not to remarry, and I am willing to accept that.

I suppose that because I was a novice (one under obedience), the Orthodox Church demands more obedience from me than you. The priest did tell me that because I studied more theology, more will be expected from me. In other words, I do have to watch what I do and say. I had to consume more books than the average catechumen!

Perhaps that is why I was told to ask permission before attending a non-Orthodox funeral or wedding.

BACK TO PRAYER

Now getting back to prayer in a Roman Catholic setting. I can pray silently (we all can) but not publicly in their church. Therefore I do pray grace before meals with my Catholic friends when we eat out.

This is all inconsistent advice, however, as the local Greek Cathedral has a Roman Catholic-Orthodox Christmas program every year with the Catholics singing their favorites in an Orthodox Church. Then the Patriarch of Constantinople goes to Rome and prays with the Pope at St. Peters. Why is he allowed to do that which I have been forbidden?

I'm not legalistic - I'm royally confused! In the meantime, I try not to do things that will earn me a rebuke, as I have been severely corrected in the past. Hey, I'm not stupid. I don't like dusting the floor, if you know what I mean. LOL

YSIC

Elizabeth :bow:

[Reader Nilus]

Just as the Gospel of St John relates, "When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?" Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!" Each of us is different, and we have different crosses to bear, I was not even required to renounce the heresies of my past, although I saw others having to do that, it is what the Lord's Will is and for each us, it is a little different. We have different tasks and therefore different temptations. It is not a temptation for me to pray with Roman Catholics or Protestants for that matter, if I end up in one of their churches, it is being polite, as once I was given rides of a 110 miles one way to the Liturgy at St Spiridon's in Seattle, with a friend who went on to his Calvery Chapel. So out of my friendship with him I would go to his Calvery Chapel on a night when there was no Orthodox Service. It made him happy and he would come with me to St Spiridon's or even some of the Pre sanctified's at St Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church. Outside of that it has been over 14 years that I have been to an Anglican or Lutheran service outside of funerals for my family. I got called in for going to St Spiridon's by my priest, I had told him that, but the Dean jumped on him asking him why one of his Readers were there and not in Wilkeson. So I had to bring a letter of introduction. And I was also jumped on for not wearing my cassock at St Spiridon's. So it goes in Orthodoxy, you do not know a rule until you break it! No confusion it is just the way Orthodoxy is.
Jeff the Finn

[MariaRegina]

So it goes in Orthodoxy, you do not know a rule until you break it! No confusion it is just the way Orthodoxy is.
Jeff the Finn

My dearest Jeff in Christ,

Christ is in our midst!

Yes, if a person is not humble, Orthodoxy will be an embarrassment!
In Orthodoxy, a person learns chant by actually chanting; however, with the eight tones, numerous saints for the day, and the many different choral texts, it's a lifetime of learning by making mistakes. Yet the Catholics practice until they get it right, made easier since they have fewer saints and one book; therefore, they don't fall on their faces as much.

It just keeps us humble. :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Caedmon]

(l) The person corrected could accept the penance and be forbidden to receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church for up to three years.
Aye caramba!!! :eek:

I didn't know that the Orthodox dealt so harshly with those that visited and partook of Communion at Catholic churches. Is this a common penance in the Orthodox Church? And why in the world would the priest keep the person from receiving Communion?

[MariaRegina]

My Dearest Joy in Christ, Joe:

Christ is in our midst!

Gloria a Jesucristo! Gloria a El para siempre!

In the early church, penances were quite common. The faith was not taken for granted as it sometimes is today. Both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches would penance anyone who committed serious sins such as murder, adultery, fornication, fortune telling, abortion, etc. These penanced people would be denied Holy Communion and would be required to make prostrations or wear sack cloths and ashes. The people would even ask for penances because of the deep sorrow they felt. Public penances were a sign of repentance.

Even today within Orthodoxy, if a person receives communion in a non-Orthodox Church the typical penance is for three years. I know two people who were given that penance recently. The priest penanced them because they PERSISTED in doing this. They didn't listen to the priest - they just didn't take him seriously.

One reason why I mentioned to the other posters that even praying in a Catholic garden could raise eyebrows is because a woman in our parish visited a protestant church and was penanced for three years. Note: she just visited - didn't even receive communion or participate in the service! However, she was told previously not to visit a Protestant Church because of her belief in the rapture.

We have some strict bishops here who won't tolerate any signs of instability, and I think it is also a reflection of the liturgical abuse that goes on within the Catholic and Protestant Churches on the West Coast. Hey, the Episcopalians have rave bikini masses! That's sacrilegious.

If you think penances are strict, look what happened to Ananias and Sapphira: they were struck dead for lying to St. Peter, because when a person lies to the Church, he is lying to the Holy Spirit. This incident is mentioned in Acts. It's biblical!

Perhaps the most important reason given for penancing sinners is the fact that we take St. Paul's warning to the Corinthians seriously. If we receive the Precious Body and Blood of Christ unworthily, we could be eating and drinking to our damnation and/or sudden death. If the priest believes that a person's salvation is at risk, he will ask them to refrain from receiving Holy Communion for a specified time until he believes that they are repentant.

Hope this helps. For more information try http://www.oca.org
and click Orthodox Christianity where Father John has an excellent Q&A section.

Your Sister in Christ,

Elizabeth




I didn't know that the Orthodox dealt so harshly with those that visited and partook of Communion at Catholic churches. Is this a common penance in the Orthodox Church? And why in the world would the priest keep the person from receiving Communion?

[CopticOrthodox]

Aye caramba!!! :eek:

I didn't know that the Orthodox dealt so harshly with those that visited and partook of Communion at Catholic churches. Is this a common penance in the Orthodox Church? And why in the world would the priest keep the person from receiving Communion?

There is no intercommunion between our Churches. Before there could be, anathamas would have to be lifted (done with EO, not OO), and differences overcome. Just like Catholics can't have Communion in a Protestant Church, Orthodox can't in a Catholic Church. Communion is a deep expression of unity, and to have it with people we don't have that unity with would be a lie. A lot of kids have Communion at Catholic schools becuase their teachers tell them the should, and pressure them to until they give in. These kids aren't dealt with harshly. The above quoted rule could be used in an extreme case where someone knew the rules of the Church, and chose to disobey them as a statement of disagreement with the Church, not in a case of someone not knowing and making a mistake.

[pax]

I realize Orthodox are not allowed to receive Holy Communion in a non-Orthodox churuch, but is there an open communion policy between the various Orthodox jurisdictions (I think that's the work I'm looking for)?

[Philip]

I realize Orthodox are not allowed to receive Holy Communion in a non-Orthodox churuch, but is there an open communion policy between the various Orthodox jurisdictions (I think that's the work I'm looking for)?

The Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions are in communion with each other.

[jukesk9]

We have a new Orthodox Church in the city I live in. I've been wanting to go just to observe, etc. My question for y'all would be this: Obviously I believe in the Real Presence. So, should I genuflect when entering an Orthodox Church?

[pax]

I don't think the Orthodox generally reserve the Blessed Sacrament unless taking it to the sick. Also, I read somewhere that bowing and making the sign of the cross is rather commonplace, but maybe it would be better to wait for someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox to answer the question.

[MariaRegina]

I don't think the Orthodox generally reserve the Blessed Sacrament unless taking it to the sick. Also, I read somewhere that bowing and making the sign of the cross is rather commonplace, but maybe it would be better to wait for someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox to answer the question.

My dearest joy in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

In the SCOBA Orthodox Churches (OCA, Carpatho-Russians, Greek Archdiocese, Antiochian Archdiocese, and others) Holy Communion is reserved for the sick. That is why there is a red sanctuary lamp.

It is considered a sign of respect to make the sign of the cross while bowing when entering an Orthodox Church. We do not genuflect. Just watch and do what the majority of Orthodox do, unless there are a lot of visitors who don't know what they are doing either. LOL

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Philip]

We have a new Orthodox Church in the city I live in. I've been wanting to go just to observe, etc. My question for y'all would be this: Obviously I believe in the Real Presence. So, should I genuflect when entering an Orthodox Church?

If you are going to visit, you might want read this article: First Visit to an Orthodox Church (http://www.antiochian.org/theology/first_visit.htm).

[MariaRegina]

There is no intercommunion between our Churches. Before there could be, anathamas would have to be lifted (done with EO, not OO), and differences overcome. .

Dearest joy in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

The lifting of the anathamas in the 1960's was only between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome.

The Patriarch of Constantinople does not represent the Russian Patriarch, the Antiochian Patriarch and the other national churches. This whole thing of different jurisdictions is rather confusing to Roman Catholics, but there is one advantage. Since we do not have a common figurehead (Christ is the Head of the Church), it will be very difficult to destroy Orthodoxy. The Communists found that out! Besides, Christ said that He would be with us always until the end of the world.

Some of the Old Calendar Eastern Orthodox churches are not in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople. These non-SCOBA old calendarists include HOCNA, Russian Church Outside of Russia, etc.

However, Orthodox churches within the USA who are part of The Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops in America (SCOBA), which does not include the Oriental Orthodox, are in communion with one another. Furthermore, within SCOBA there are old calendar (Julian) churches such as some OCA parishes and the Serbians.

Hope this helps.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[Caedmon]

Even today within Orthodoxy, if a person receives communion in a non-Orthodox Church the typical penance is for three years. I know two people who were given that penance recently. The priest penanced them because they PERSISTED in doing this. They didn't listen to the priest - they just didn't take him seriously.
Why is it so harsh? And why is that the standard duration of the penance? What if the person comes to total repentance before that time is elapsed?

One reason why I mentioned to the other posters that even praying in a Catholic garden could raise eyebrows is because a woman in our parish visited a protestant church and was penanced for three years. Note: she just visited - didn't even receive communion or participate in the service! However, she was told previously not to visit a Protestant Church because of her belief in the rapture.
That is incredibly harsh. I can't believe the priest did that to her.

Hey, the Episcopalians have rave bikini masses! That's sacrilegious.
Do you have a source for this? I would like to read it.

If the priest believes that a person's salvation is at risk, he will ask them to refrain from receiving Holy Communion for a specified time until he believes that they are repentant.
So if a priest believes that someone with a 3-year penance has completely repented before their time is up, will he waive the rest of the penance?

[Philip]

So if a priest believes that someone with a 3-year penance has completely repented before their time is up, will he waive the rest of the penance?

Doesn't the giving of a penance presume that ther person has completely repented?

[Philip]

Just out of curiosity, Chanterhanson, what jurisdiction do you belong to?

[MariaRegina]

So if a priest believes that someone with a 3-year penance has completely repented before their time is up, will he waive the rest of the penance?

My dearest joy in Christ, Joe:

Christ is in our midst!

EXCOMMUNICATION

Yes, the penance could be lifted, but that is a matter between the Bishop, the priest and the individual penitent. Indeed a penance or an excommunication is harsh. It is a disciplinary action taken to bring the person to repentance. However, do you see radical wicca feminists within the Orthodox Church? Have you ever heard of an Orthodox Call to Action? If anyone tried that, they would be out - no longer Orthodox.

PRAYING AT NON-ORTHODOX SHRINES

That is why I am very careful when it comes to the ecumenical movement and praying in non-Orthodox churches or shrines. That is best left to Bishops and Priests who can get away with it. (But they are answerable to God. Paraphrasing Dante: The streets of hell are lined with the heads of priests and the lampposts are the bishops.)

DISCIPLINING THE CHURCH

Correction is done as an act of charity. To look the other way when someone is doing something wrong is a lack of charity that could lead to the sinner's damnation and cause scandal. Even St. Paul stressed that the Church needs to discipline its members. Read his epistles. In Corinthians he chastised the early Christians with the words, "Shall I come to you with a rod." (cf I Cor 4:21).

I really don't want to start another thread on penance because it is hard to understand. Some people have the notion that imposing a penance or excommunication is uncharitable. it is harsh, but it is very biblical and necessary.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[MariaRegina]

Doesn't the giving of a penance presume that ther person has completely repented?

Thank you Philip:

Christ is in our midst!

Yes, a penance is accepted by a repenting person in sorrow for his sins. It is an act of repentance which helps lead a person to complete repentance, or metanoia. It is a part of the Holy Mystery of Penance.

Excommunication, on the other hand, is imposed upon a person who will not accept a penance and who is not repentant.

Now back to prayer before statues and icons.

Your Sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

[CopticOrthodox]

I think we should be careful about extrapolating general rules from what a person was told to do by their Father of Confession. Maybe someone was told not to do something because their preist didn't think it would be a good idea. We're not priests, do don't know as much as we'd like to think, and we shouldn't think we understand the normal practices of the Church from these isolated situations, who's details we do not know. All the examples listed so far seem to be people disobeying thier priest. If you have permission to interact with other Christian groups, then obedience is not a problem as with the exampels listed above.

The example of the woman who was told not to go to a Prot service & went... reading between the lines it sounds like someone who refused to accept the Church's teaching on the Rapture, and went to a Prot service after being told not to because of that by their priest. In such a case it might make sense to bar them from Communion for a time to make it clear to them that they must chose between Orthodoxy and Protestantism, and cannot have both. I have no idea what the situation was, but we shouldn't extrapolate from what little has been posted here to say that in Orthodox there is a penalty of being bared from Communion for attending a Protestant service.

[MariaRegina]

Dearest Coptic Orthodox:

I think you are confused in your ecclesiology. Does the Coptic Church follow the Rudder like the Eastern Orthodox Church does? These Holy Canons say that we cannot visit or participate in a schismatic or heretical church. Unfortunately, as of now, both the Catholic and the Protestant churches fall into one of these two categories. That's not my ruling. Read Bishop Timothy Ware's THE ORTHODOX CHURCH.

In fact, my former Catholic Confessor told me that the Orthodox Church was in schism with the Catholic Church. So both sides are using the term schism to describe the separation of the two churches.

The woman in question did believe in the Rapture and did persist with her visits to Protestant churches in spite of being forbidden to do so. She was disobedient and lacked stability, and that is precisely why she was penanced by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

However, our priests have made it clear that they don't want any of us visiting non-Orthodox churches, unless there is a funeral or wedding that we cannot avoid. And then we cannot participate by singing, reading the Scriptures, or sharing communion with them in their church. We can only attend an approved ecumenical Vespers service, whatever!!?? I am going to remain obedient.

With all the current Vatican-Patriarchal discussions, this whole thread may be obsolete soon.

Let's pray and be charitable. And please pray for that woman and for all those who are penanced, that they may repent.

Your sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

However, our priests have made it clear that they don't want any of us visiting non-Orthodox churches, unless there is a funeral or wedding that we cannot avoid. And then we cannot participate by singing, reading the Scriptures, or sharing communion with them in their church. We can only attend an approved ecumenical Vespers service, whatever!!?? I am going to remain obedient.
What are your priests in fear of? In my opinion if I heard a priest say things like you can't do this you can't do that, I would go to a different Church. I have come across Orthodox that have come out of various movements into the Church that still have plenty of baggage from their former way of looking at things. I seek out native born Orthodox priests when ever I can.
Jeff the Finn

[Reader Nilus]

we shouldn't extrapolate from what little has been posted here to say that in Orthodox there is a penalty of being bared from Communion for attending a Protestant service.
I have never heard of such a thing, and I agree with CopticOrthodox, that the case in question was an individual matter, and is no way reflective of Orthodoxy in general.
Jeff the Finn

[MariaRegina]

What are your priests in fear of? I seek out native born Orthodox priests when ever I can.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Jeff and Coptic Christian:

Christ is in our midst! He is and always shall be!

This is the Faith of our Fathers! This is the Orthodox Faith! sang the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. A council that the Coptics refuse to acknowledge even to this day - why? The Catholics and Orthodox accept this council. What are the Coptic objections to the Seven Ecumenical Councils? I'm just asking an honest question.

Are you obedient to the Holy Canons (I know they sometimes conflict) or do you prefer your own opinions and those priests who agree with you? Don't the Coptics have similar Canons? Ask your priests, if you dare. Are you afraid that they will tell you the truth?

At my Chrismation, I agreed to obey the Holy Canons. The Holy Bishops inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote these canons. Who am I to be above the canons? So if a Holy Canon says that I should not visit a heretical or schismatic Church. I will obey. PERIOD. NO DEBATE IS NEEDED HERE. It is a matter of obedience. It's a matter of faith.

This Holy Canon holds true for both Catholics and Orthodox. Even cradle Orthodox Priests have told me the same thing. Bishop Tickhon of the OCA is adamant in upholding the Holy Canons, of course, he's a convert so you would disagree with him, I suppose.

Your sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

The Rudder is not the Gospel, and I think that if we proscribe people from visiting other churches, we are in the same camp as the JW's and that is not good. I have never heard of anyone prohibited from visiting other churches.
Jeff the Finn

[MariaRegina]

The Rudder is not the Gospel, and I think that if we proscribe people from visiting other churches, we are in the same camp as the JW's and that is not good. I have never heard of anyone prohibited from visiting other churches.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Jeff:

Christ is in our midst! Open your eyes.

Think: What if the good Bishop reads your posts? He has a computer. You've given enough information that he could find your identity.

I guess you should stay away from the good Bishop. He believes in the Rudder as upholding Orthodox Tradition. The Rudder simply lists the Holy Canons of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Are you saying that you don't want to read and even know the Holy Canons? Are you somehow against Tradition? Have you fallen into the sola scriptura camp?

Just some questions to get you thinking.

YSIC
Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

Dearest Jeff:

Christ is in our midst! Open your eyes.

Think: What if the good Bishop reads your posts? He has a computer. You've given enough information that he could find your identity.

I guess you should stay away from the good Bishop. He believes in the Rudder as upholding Orthodox Tradition. The Rudder simply lists the Holy Canons of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Are you saying that you don't want to read and even know the Holy Canons? Are you somehow against Tradition? Have you fallen into the sola scriptura camp?

Just some questions to get you thinking.

YSIC
Elizabeth
I am not against Tradition, but the Rudder is not the Gospel, and legalism be it in the form of the Rudder or not is still legalism. I have no interest in being a canon lawyer, as it is dry as dust. I was told along with those who came into the Church with me not to worry to much about the Rudder. And do you follow all those canons? How can you be a cantor if you are a female? That would not fly in my parish at all.
Jeff the Finn

[Caedmon]

Doesn't the giving of a penance presume that ther person has completely repented?
Exactly... And if I am correct, reconciliation brings one back to God. So would God have a man brought back to Him, only to be denied His Communion?! That seems illogical to me.

[MariaRegina]

Exactly... And if I am correct, reconciliation brings one back to God. So would God have a man brought back to Him, only to be denied His Communion?! That seems illogical to me.

Dearest Humblejoe:

Christ is in our midst!

In the early Church, when a penitent confessed his sins with tears of repentance, he would do penance for his sins. He accepted the penance willingly as a sign of his repentance. The Holy Canons of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church specified how long a penance was to be. (i.e. Seven years for visiting a soothsayer or fortune teller.) These Holy Canons are still used today within Orthodoxy but charitably modified (no more prostrators). However, the Roman Catholic Church in 1917 modified these canons when it issued the Code of Canon Law (done largely by the future PP XII). These Canons were further modified in 1983 and now they are out-of-date again, as a result of developing theology within the Catholic Church.

Even in the Roman Catholic Church today a penance is given by the priest-confessor, however, the RCC has made Holy Confession easy today. Usually just three Hail Marys or a charitable act at the sole discretion of the Roman Catholic priest. Only in cases of abortion is the Roman Catholic Church usually strict in demanding a time of penance and reconciliation, and understandably so.

On the other hand, the Orthodox Church is considered a dinosaur by some because we don't believe that theology and sacramental practices can develop. Hence the Orthodox have a more ancient faith, once delivered, to all people at all times, which is the meaning of Catholic. The Orthodox Church is therefore strict and more demanding of her faithful.

Hope this helps.

YSIC
Elizabeth

[MariaRegina]

The Rudder is not the Gospel, and I think that if we proscribe people from visiting other churches, we are in the same camp as the JW's and that is not good. I have never heard of anyone prohibited from visiting other churches.
Jeff the Finn

Then have a sincere talk with the good Bishop the next time he visits your church.

[CopticOrthodox]

Who is 'the good Bishop' you keep mentioning? I haven't seen a name, sorry if I missed it. The cannons still apply, but they have to be applied to the situation, not applied blindly. Modern Catholics and Protestants are neither heretics nor schismatics, they're simply part of organizations in heresy or schism. The difference is that they are not people who willfully separated themselves from the one Church and refused to repent and return, they are people who for generations have been born into their Churches and live in them as all they know. Now they are our separated brothers and sisters, spearated by the sins of their and our fathers hundreds of years ago, not people who are themselves engaging in schism & heresy, not themselves rebelling against the Church. So a great deal of leaway in applying the Cannons is currently being used since the cannons were not written with such a situation in mind.

Respectfully, Unless you are a priest you should not be telling people what they should do in these situations, and unless you are a bishop you should not be interpretting how the cannons should be aplied in broad applications accross the Church. None of us are qualified to do any of this, so we should err on the side of caution and assume that if our Fathers have given us different instructions, it's for our own circumstances, and not try to think that the way we're told to do things is the way or the norm and that others are in error.

[MariaRegina]

I am not against Tradition, but the Rudder is not the Gospel, and legalism be it in the form of the Rudder or not is still legalism. I have no interest in being a canon lawyer, as it is dry as dust. I was told along with those who came into the Church with me not to worry to much about the Rudder. And do you follow all those canons? How can you be a cantor if you are a female? That would not fly in my parish at all.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Jeff:

I am allowed to chant in my church; however, we are not tonsured. I have seen female chanters in all the jurisdictions, even in the old calendarists such as HOCNA and ROR which allows the nuns to chant.

However we are way off topic. Back to praying, images and statues:

Check out the good humble Bishop in charge of the OCA, he prefers not to be named over the Internet. If you ask him about visiting a Protestant or Catholic Church, he will give you a piece of his mind, claro que si, and he will quote the Holy Canons, which we laity need not memorize nor own, but which we are expected to obey as much as we are able.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[MariaRegina]

Dear Coptic Christian:

Please take a course in logic and critical thinking. I really cannot follow your arguments along with your judgmental statements.

Please let's be charitable and logical in all our writings.

Now back to Statues, Images.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[MariaRegina]

To all Christians of good will:

Christ is in our midst!

Re: Icons and Statues

Not too long ago a Catholic company contacted me and asked if I would be interesting in buying a perpetual calendar in which you could keep tract of days people died as well as birthdays. I mentioned that I was Orthodox and that a lot of Catholics were expressing interest in icons.

So guess what happened?

They produced a lovely calendar that is loaded with Icons!

In fact, icons are more popular with Catholics now than with the Orthodox.

Is this a sign that we will one day be one?

Your Sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

Goodness even my priest when he drives across the country to visit his in-laws will stop at a Lutheran Church if there is no Orthodox Temple near if it is on Sunday. I am with CopticOrthodox The canons of the Rudder are best left in compentant hands, and they are not applied as law, and many of them fall under what we would consider a small t tradition and they were addressing things that do not exist today.
She is I think referring to His Grace Bishop Tikhon of the Diocese of the West, in the OCA.
Jeff the Finn

[MariaRegina]

Dearest Jeff in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

Again, have you ever talked with your shepherd, His Grace (who humbly does not want us mentioning his name) about this issue? Are you afraid to ask him a simple question? Go for it!

I have, and he would probably not agree with you.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[CopticOrthodox]

If one bishop has decided that such a policy is necessary for their church, fine... but others have decided differently. We should respect then and give them the benefit of the doubt that they are able to make the correct pastorial decisions for their own flocks without arguing my bishop is better than yours, why don't you ask my bishop, are you afraid?

I don't mean any offense, but it really seems like you're living in the past in a romanticised version of the glory days of Orthodoxy. It sounds like you're closing out all other Christians, and being completely unwilling to interact with them out of a fear that seems to have been bred into some Orthodox circles because of persecution and loses, using old cannons intended for different situations as justification. If your bishop does the same, he's not in agreement with a lot of other bishops, and none of our bishops are infallible, let alone incapable of any pastorial mistake. I'm glad that Orthodox is not stuck in the past, but it is a living tradition that addapts to the times and cultures it encounters to always spread the Gospel and save souls, without compormising the Orthodox faith. If your bishop has a more cautious policy than ours, I'm not going to debate you and call you a heretic or disobedient to the church, I'll give him the benifit of the doubt that there's good pastorial reason for it. I'm not going to try to impose my bishops' pastorial decisions upon you, as if I was worthy to participate in thier decision making. It would be nice if you would do the same, and not condemn the decisions of many holy Orthodox bishops in other juristictions. Your legalism has already caused scandle to at least 3 people.

If you want to post a statement from your bishop that challenges the decisions of the other bishops, or if he wants to post a message, then debate would be worthwhile, but this some unnamed bishop doesn't agree with you without any consideration to other factors is rediculous.

[MariaRegina]

My dearest joy in Christ: Coptic Christian:

We are just going around in circles. You aren't thinking logically.
Just be obedient to your bishop and we will all be happy.

Please let's just get back to icons and statues.
Have you seen the surge of interest in Icons?

There are many Catholics who are painting icons now, but some don't really look like icons.

Are there different styles of icons?

Is there any requirement about who can write an Icon in the Coptic Church? Can anyone do it?

YSIC

Elizabeth

[CopticOrthodox]

There are Byzantine style icons, Coptic style icons, Western style icons, and many more. It became popular to have Western icons in Coptic Churches, but now there's a big push to go back to proper icons. When an icon is written, it should be done properly, with strict fasting and prayer, and with certain techniches like starting with the dark colours, and progressing to the lighter colours. Anyone can do it, there are no orders involved. If they're used in Church, they should be consecrated by a bishop (Catholics just have a priest bless them, we must have a bishop consecrate them, what do other Orthodox do)? As long as there are no theological errors, and they have been properly consecrated, they're ok to use in Church. Less correct ones are sometimes used by individuals.

[MariaRegina]

Dearest joy in Christ,

Christ is Risen!

Within the Eastern Orthodox Church, there are various customs.

If the icon is a print, or a copy of an original icon, then it can be blessed by a priest. However, with the original icon, I think it is usually consecrated by the Bishop. The Bishop consecrates the Icons installed in the Church with Holy Chrism.

At the OCA Churches, a priest will usually place the icon on the altar or in the altar area, where it will remain during the Divine Liturgy. Then after the Divine Liturgy, the priest blesses it with holy water and gives it to the parishioner to install in their homes.

In the Greek Churches it is customary to bring the icon to church and leave it there for 40 days on the altar. It then becomes part of the church, so when you bring it home, you have part of the church in your home.

In the Antiochian Church, the priest will place the icon on the Altar during the Divine Liturgy and give it back immediately to the parishioner after Divine Liturgy has ended.

I do not know about other Orthodox jurisdictions: Romanians, Serbs, etc. Perhaps any viewers can contribute information about the practices they observe in their particular churches.

Any comments?

YSIC
Elizabeth

[Reader Nilus]

The proper blessing for the ikon is to have it in the altar for 40 days. The quick blessing is for the priest to do it.
Jeff the Finn