So what happens after death?

[colinlindsay]

After clinical death what happens to us?
My query is from the point of view of what happens to our sinful desires.
Do they just get burnt up in the divine vision?
Will this be painful or painless?
Or is there a challenge for us to be perfect before we enter his presence?
This is really for Christians. You've got have some presupposition about life after death. I prefer to go with Jesus's firm conviction about it.
Does anybody know about David Ritchie's experience after death?
http://www.near-death.com/ritch.html (http://www.near-death.com/ritch.html)
They say it's probably the fullest christian experience that's been documented.
I find it disturbing because it posits the certainly that we take into eternity (especially if not saved) those obsessions and lusts we pandered to on earth. These remain perpetually unsatisfied in the disembodied state.
What happens to our carnal desires (pride, lust, greed, jealousy etc)
Any catholics want to argue for purgatory here?

[TwinCrier]

I don't believe in near-death experiences. Either you're dead or you're not. I believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and since there can be no sin in His presence, my sin will not exist any longer. As far as the east is from the west.

[WinduDe]

After clinical death what happens to us?

Any catholics want to argue for purgatory here?

there is no biblical proof that purgatory exist

[reccanboy]

Actually, there is biblical proof for purgatory, however it's mostly in the deuterocanon which protestants refer to as the "apochrypha".

Catholics believe these books are inspired, and if you don't agree then read Wisdom of Solomon chapter 2. There are passages that refer to Jesus as the son of God hundreds of years before his birth.

Anyhow back to the subject:
Wisdom 3:6 and 2 Maccabees 12:46 are used for the doctrine of purgatory.

[Edouard]

Life after death:1) I would recommend reading Thessalonians and Revelations. 2) Dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive will meet Christ in the Clouds.. 3) Before Judgement day, there is a suggestion that we are separated already but we are able to see the wiating of th dead. 4) Hebrews discusses the "cloud of witness;"5) As far as our sinful desires, we will be changed - read Revelation..6) As far as sin not being able to be in the presence of God, why is Satan able to walk to and from from Heaven???just a thought to throw a loop in the logic.. may God bless you all and keep you.. have a great week. your brother in Christ David.

[lilymarie]

I think it means we will be like the Bible says "those who have fallen asleep". And what 'like' fallen asleep means to me would be in a word "peaceful" and/or at peace.

There will be no sadness, no more pain, no more tears.

[DeaconDean]

That would depend on where they are headed, heaven for the saved, hell for the damned. It would profit a person enormously to study briefly the doctrine of death and judgment, and hell for that matter. Here are just a few:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell7.html

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_16.htm

http://www.pbministries.org/R.%20L.%20Dabney/Systematic%20Theology/chapter46.htm

http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/J.%20L.%20Dagg/Manual%20of%20Theology/bookeigth/chapter5.htm

http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal_Divinity/Book_1/book1_17.htm

Of course there are many, many more. But just reading these may help get you started in the right direction.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[jsimms615]

I read the link that you posted. It really seems to be referring to the desires of unbelievers and how they are still weighed down by sinful desires. It doesn't say anything about believers there. But, I would assume that the scriptures that say that he will seperate us from our sin as far as the east is from the west is still true.
I was forgiven the moment I was saved, sins past, present and future. I will be judged on deeds, but not for punishment but for reward.

J

[cubanito]

For the true Christians, according to Romans, sin resides in our corporeal body. Death separates us from that. Additionally, our minds no longer see darkly, that is, those "sins" that result from ignorance are gone because God's will is then clearly perceived.

As my wife put it when I asked her what she thought the best thing about going to Heaven was: "I won't want to sin."

Now, going to Heaven is not the final state. It is a happy, but incomplete existance. Eventually we are re-united with a perfected body, and inhabit a perfected Earth.

JR

[colinlindsay]

<<For the true Christians, according to Romans, sin resides in our corporeal body.>>

I hope you are right. Because much sin is not through ignorance but desired. It's in the will, although the body is affected by addiction through repeated giving in etc.

If you are right, then scenario that the Jews found so obnoxious is true - that we could sin up to the limit in this life and still be saved because of our justification through Christ.

Anyway, you can't be a complete Once Saved Always Saved believer in this as it is possible to like your life of sin so much ('the world, the flesh') that you prise yourself out of the hand of God and turn away in embarrassment from the holiness of Christ at the judgement.

Anyway, partly my thoughts. My pastor was a bit stumped. He believes that sanctification is a process. He wasn't sure therefore what happens in the twinking of an eye at the last trumpet but he thinks only the spirit perseveres - the body and the soul (the thing that torments the ghosts in that vision I gave the url to) just fall away. He doesn't believe there is a continuing process of sanctification in the next life, though we will learn and develop.
Then what happens to our personalities, the thing that makes us US? Do we just start again like clean blotting paper, like new babies in the womb?

[DeaconDean]

The Bible clearly teaches that Christains will be resurrected in the same body they died in. We will rise to meet Jesus in the air and then be given our glorified bodies.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -1 Thes. 4:17 (KJV)

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." -1 Cor. 15:53-54 (KJV)

However, John taught:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -1 John 3:2 (KJV)

The point here is, as shown, we will be risen in the same body we lived in, then in the twinklining of an eye, we will be changed, we will put off corruptible and put on incorruptible. We will see Jesus just as He is and be made just as He is.

However, this cannot be said of the unsaved.

When they are finally resurrected to stand before God on that great judgement day, they will not have that glorified body that the saints have. No. They will be in the same mortal body that they lived in. And those sins that they committed while in the body will cling to them like a sock fresh out of the dryer.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." -Rev. 22:11 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Emmy]

Dear colinlindsay. You, and others too, talk about the final judgment, some even talk about getting a new body, to live in a New Earth. Could you please explain to me, and I ask this humbly and with love, WHY did Jesus tell the repenting thief, next to Him on the Cross, " Today you will be with me in Paradise." ?? And why did Jesus tell His disciples, after God had raised Him, and He was going home to God, " I shall go and prepare a place for you, in God` House of many Mansions?" While Jesus lived amongst us, He told us to become perfect, as God is perfect. Jesus also gave us 2 Commandments, which contain all 10 Commandments which God gave us. 1) Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, amd with all your minds. 2) Love your neighbour as yourselves. We know that God is LOVE, we know that we have to learn to love God above all else, and each other as we love ourselves. Love is the Key to Heaven, our original home, and we have been given many years to learn to become as God wants us to be. Jesus is our Helper and our Guide, He is the Way back to God. Jesus never mentioned a New Earth, no matter how different. Sincere greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. I have heard Jehovah`s Witnesses talk about a new earth. Yet we are brothers and sisters in Christ.

[colinlindsay]

Hello Emmy,

I'm the last person to explain anything with any great assurance.
This is because I am going through rather a time of scepticism about any confidently-asserted Christian doctrine.
OK, overstated.
Bless you for your email. I will consider it carefully.
But just bear in mind that on this board at least, there will be those who just tell you what the Bible teaches, whether its humbly or in love or not....
I rather think that whatever the formulations, no matter how scriptural the quotes are, there are going to be a number of surprises the other side.

[icedtea]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

[colinlindsay]

< < and this mortal shall have put on immortality, > > (describes the saved)
Deacondean...
Much of what you are saying seems to lean towards annihilationism. This passage talks of the redeemed receiving bodies of immortality, and at the same time our sin urges falling away with our current earthly bodies (as if under judgement) and like snake peeling off its confining skin.
However the unsaved are just resurrected for judgement in their earthly bodies. How can the unsaved be punished for ever in their bodies, if what is mortal (for them) does NOT put on immortality?

[colinlindsay]

Actually, I think you can assume that it is not possible to have more than a glimpse of what life after death is like if you have NT Bible verses to rely on. It is not unsound to conclude that the written witness to this is limited and prone to different interpretation. The graphic images used by Jesus were in parables (and you know how expositors warn us not to base doctrine on parables) and I believe he used these stories to jolt His listeners (especially the pharisees) out of their self-righteousness. What are we to make of "Today, you will be with me in paradise"? - a shortcut through all the speculations, if ever there was one.
Part of the problem is that the OT never majored on the afterlife, in spite of the intense interest in it of the oppressing empires and surrounding cultures. The Jewish culture of Jesus's time had been infilitrated by Hellenistic ideas of hell.
In every book of systematic theology I've read including Berkhof and Grudem and also "In Understanding Be Men", any section on "what happens after we die" comes over as basically a description of different viewpoints.

[DeaconDean]

< < and this mortal shall have put on immortality, > > (describes the saved)
Deacondean...
Much of what you are saying seems to lean towards annihilationism. This passage talks of the redeemed receiving bodies of immortality, and at the same time our sin urges falling away with our current earthly bodies (as if under judgement) and like snake peeling off its confining skin.
However the unsaved are just resurrected for judgement in their earthly bodies. How can the unsaved be punished for ever in their bodies, if what is mortal (for them) does NOT put on immortality?

I am not, I repeat, I DO NOT, AM NOT, PROMOTING ANNIHILATIONISM! I DO NOT BELIEVE IT!

A lot of people will tell you that you cannot base doctrine on scripture, but it is done all the time. Jesus told the parable of the sower and yet here, we can clearly see four types of people, three of which only make a hollow, shallow, empty confession and fall away, and on class who confess and perservere.

Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, what the consequences would be if you died in your sins.

The rich man went to hell, Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom.

Hell, the place where the rich man went to, is only a temporary holding place. It will hold all unbelives until the day of their judgment. Then, death and hell will be cast into the "lake of fire."

Jesus plainly taught John in Revelatioins that the unsaved would be punished eternally in the lake of fire.

Let me set the scene for you.

It is late, the antichrist has been revealed. Jesus has come back and defeated the beast and the false prophet. And you have also those who have taken the mark of the beast.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Instant judgment! No standing before the Lord on the great judgment day, they are judged on the spot! And they are guilty!

Now, we turn the clock back just a little bit.

Those people, who dare to take the mark of the beast, they will not stand before the Lord in judgement neither. Taking the mark is an instant judgement: guilty!

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." -Rev. 14:9-11 (KJV)

Now, lets turn the clock forward.

It is the great judgment day.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:10-15 (KJV)

Now pay attention because we have here a sequence of events that are very important.

At the end of chapter 19 the beast and false prophet were cast alive in the lake of fire. In Rev. 20:10, Satan is cast alive into the same place. And scriptures specifically say:

"shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " -Rev. 20:10 (KJV)

And also, it says that:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:14-15 (KJV)

Now consider for a moment, if God grants eternal life for born again believers, does it not make sense that those who reject the free gift of eternal life to be tormanted forever?

Seventh Day Adventists will argue that the Greek word rendered "eternal" is aion. And aion simply means an undertermined amont of time. That is where the doctrine of annihilationism derives from.

If it simply means "an undertermined amount of time" as is contended, and you do simply stay in the lake of fire till your sins are paid and then mysteriously "urn up." Then in essence, you have escaped "eternal punishment." You have in esscence, escaped the lake of fire. So then, if that theory is true, why would a person need to be saved in the first place? Are you not going to after 1 year, or 1000 years, or 1,000.000 years eventually going to escape eternal punishment, why bother to get saved in the first place?

If God grants aiwnion = (everlasting/eternal) life to those who believe and are born again, then those who reject Jesus Christ will have aiwnion = (eternal/everlasting) damnation.

Now Seventh Day Adventists will argue that aiwn does not mean eternal, but I show show proof from Greek literature outside the Bible where the same word is used as "eternal". There are some 185 references where it is used that way.

So I am telling you, the unsaved will upon death, go to hell. There they will stay until the day of judgment. Those who have placed their trust in Jesus, and are born again they will go to be with the Lord until the day they are reunited with their body and then go to stay with Him forever.

Read the Bible. It will tell you what I have told you if you do not believe me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[colinlindsay]

Deacondean,

Thanks for all your work.
T C Hammond - "In Understanding be Men" "After death, what.... ... we are met with considerable divergences among professing Christians"
The original thread was NOT about "The Last Things", "The Great White Throne", The Judgement", The "Rapture", "The Lake of Fire", "Final Destiny", "Eternal Punishment", "The New Heavens and the New Earth".
I think there was a reference to Pearce's book, which shows that this thread was about at most the intermediate state and more what was to be experienced in the shorter period after death. Your last paragraph is unsupported by all the rest of your post. It's like asking someone of 15 what they think growing up is like and they can only give an example from their ageing grandparents.
Also, I never said that scripture shouldn't determine doctrine - I said that you should not let parables be the final word. That certainly goes for the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. In this I am in the company of most evangelical mainstream commentators, and especially those of Jewish Roots who understand Jewish figures of speech and argumentative styles. (I don't know many Christians who have cut their arms off or gouged their eyes out in literal understanding of Jesus's attack on the hypocrisy of the pharisees - and that's not even a parable)
Also, I never said that you were teaching or believing in annihilationism. I said that the proof-texts you used have been helpful to those who do.
But in most controversial (ie useful) posts most people answer the questions they wanted to hear.

[Bick]

Greetings , fellow students of the Scriptures.

Whart happens after death? We die. Death is the opposite of life. We cease to exist, except in the mind of God, who will resurrect all, some day, at different times.

Lets look at the Scriptures rather than rely on hearsay.

DEATH IS SAID TO BE A RETURN:
Gen. 3:19 "..you are dust and to dust shall you return."
Job 10:9 "...unto dust shall you cause me to return."
Psa. 90:3 "...you shall cause me to return to dust."
Psa. 146:34 "The wicked shall be turned back into Sheol (the grave), even all the nations that forget God."

IN DEATH THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE, NO REMEMBRANCE, NO PRAISE:
Psa.6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa 30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa 88:10-12 "Will thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee? ...Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"
Psa 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down in silence.?
Ecc. 8:5 "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything.?
Isa. 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee; death cannot celebrate thee..."

NO ONE HAS ASCENDED IN HEAVEN BUT CHRIST JESUS:
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
And this was written by John some years after Jesus ascension.

NO OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS HAVE ASCENDED:
Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens..."

[colinlindsay]

Bick,

So , when the Chrsitain dies, does he experience the presence of God or not?
The OVERWHELMING thrust of the passages you give suggest NO.

Whereas the thief on the cross was promised an encounter with paradise in Jesus's presence?

This is part of the problem when you just pack an answer with proof-texts.