Talk the talk yet be unsaved?

[Protestante]

Do you guys reckon it is possible for somebody to have all the answers at church, know what it is to be a Christian, yet still be unsaved?

A few of my friends from church, Im just a bit worried about. They know all the answers, but they don't seem to show any evidence of a change in their lives. They lied and cheated last night for example, and didn't even show a hint of remorse, or even anything hinting at the fact they know they'd done wrong.

Anything scripturally answering me?

Thanks a billion.

YBiC

Prot

[JulySheMustFly]

It is very possible to know all he right answers and not know Christ. I wouldn't judge their faith as real or not that is between them and God to work out. But you can definately express your concern over their behaviors and be the friend to set an example of Christ like living.

[MidnightCandel777]

It's easy to talk the talk, but to walk the walk is completely diffrent.

[WesWoodell]

Do you guys reckon it is possible for somebody to have all the answers at church, know what it is to be a Christian, yet still be unsaved?


Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
(NIV)

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
(NIV)

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
(NIV)

1 John 1:5-10
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
(NIV)

1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
(NIV)

1 John 5:2-3
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
3 This is love for God: to obey his commands.
(NIV)

2 John 1:6
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
(NIV)

Revelation 3:15-16
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16 So, because you are lukewarm-- neither hot nor cold-- I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
(NIV)

Romans 6:16-18
16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-- whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
(NIV)

James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-- and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
(NIV)

[Matthan]

There is a lot (no, make that a LOT!!) of hypocracy in many churches today. People may "preach" Jesus, but do they really love Him? (Even pastors of churches with 14,000 members?)

Matthan

[Aisynia]

WesWoodell said it all, lol

[New_Wineskin]

Do you guys reckon it is possible for somebody to have all the answers at church, know what it is to be a Christian, yet still be unsaved?

A few of my friends from church, Im just a bit worried about. They know all the answers, but they don't seem to show any evidence of a change in their lives. They lied and cheated last night for example, and didn't even show a hint of remorse, or even anything hinting at the fact they know they'd done wrong.

Anything scripturally answering me?

Thanks a billion.

YBiC

Prot

Absolutely !! It is soooo easy to fit in and talk the group's religious language . Many are "bible , bible , bible" . So , just as those in Jesus' time , all one has to do is memorize a lot of passages and do the phrases . Of course , they actually *think* that they are Christians because they are doing exactly what they see and hear . From my own experience , it is very difficult to tell the difference between the christians of those groups and those that are imitating them .

[Wisdom's Child]

Absolutely !! It is soooo easy to fit in and talk the group's religious language . Many are "bible , bible , bible" . So , just as those in Jesus' time , all one has to do is memorize a lot of passages and do the phrases . Of course , they actually *think* that they are Christians because they are doing exactly what they see and hear . From my own experience , it is very difficult to tell the difference between the christians of those groups and those that are imitating them .

That is true.
It takes dilligence, and watching for the fruit of the tree to determine if that tree is good or bad.
That is why it is so dangerous to teach Paul's "Faith only" salvation without also teaching Jame's "Showing Faith by works".
There are so many out there that are discouraged from doing good works simply because their teachers soapbox against any and all forms of works.
Without works, Faith is dead.
A person's works outside of the church building, their character and lifestyle will reveal if they are truely and faithfully following the teachings of Jesus, or if they are simply playing church to apease their peers.

[Nadiine]

Do you guys reckon it is possible for somebody to have all the answers at church, know what it is to be a Christian, yet still be unsaved?

Anything scripturally answering me


Wes gave the verse I'd give on this one - Mat. 7:21-23.

There will be MANY who think they're of God, but He tells them "I never knew you" (it's 1 reason I reject that you "lose" salvation repeatedly... the one's God rejects, were never His in the first place. imo).

Anyhooo, one thing I wanted to mention in your post... you really can't know that they have no conviction of their actions. That's being able to know their heart which only God can do.

Back when I was backslidden, I'd come home from a wild party and feel absolutely SICK about my lifestyle.
You'de never know that from how I acted on the outside, but inwardly, I was endlessly tormented by guilt. (the book of Habakukk goes into how God works in people when we have no idea what's going on in them).

I'd just be in prayer for them that they either do get 'genuinely' saved, or that God continue conviction and bring them back to a rightful relationship w/ Him.:holy:

By the way, one other thing, the Pharisees in the NT knew all the laws and were viewed as the most spiritual, but it was Jesus that condemned them as "sons of hell" in Mat. 23.

:wave: :) Good thread

[Nadiine]

That is true.
It takes dilligence, and watching for the fruit of the tree to determine if that tree is good or bad.
That is why it is so dangerous to teach Paul's "Faith only" salvation without also teaching Jame's "Showing Faith by works".
There are so many out there that are discouraged from doing good works simply because their teachers soapbox against any and all forms of works.
Without works, Faith is dead.
A person's works outside of the church building, their character and lifestyle will reveal if they are truely and faithfully following the teachings of Jesus, or if they are simply playing church to apease their peers.

I don't know of any teachers that soapbox against works... just that they teach Faith only [not works] for salvation - (Eph. 2:8-9). And the works are the RESULT of the genuine faith in action.

The bible teaches genuine salvation THRU FAITH which prompts the works we do in Christ's power.
After being empowered by God's Spirit (who lives IN us), we're able to endure and do the works God has for us to do.
Tts 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Tts/Tts003.html#5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Luk 7:50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk007.html#50) And he [Jesus] said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Paul is correct in his epistles, James just elaborates that there will be evidence (works) that follow the genuine salvation and prove the faith is real [alive] :)

In my opinion, if Faith is "dead", then you're faithless - unsaved. I don't grasp how works would get us to heaven without saving faith first whereby we have forgiveness thru Christ's shed blood?

[J4Jesus]

There are many in the church who only know ABOUT Jesus but dont really KNOW Him. They have mental assent about Him but dont have a personal relationship with Him.They have not been born again like Jesus said we all must be. When we recieve Him into our lives He changes are heart and the Bible says we are a new creature, old things have passed away all things become new.

[Protestante]

Thankyou so much guys for all this. Very helpful. Continue to post advice if you have anymore, but what you guys have said helps so much! Thankyou again.

YBiC

prot

[ProfessorJ]

Just because they know about God and hear the Word doesn't mean they're ready to accept it completely. It's the parable of the man sowing the seeds (Matt. 13:3-8). They're recieving the Word, but they're not ready to receive it. Perhaps something else is bothering them and preventing the Spirit from flourishing within them. You could talk to them about it, and that may help. And the Bible also says everything unto its own season, and maybe its just not yet their time. God bless.
J

[Wisdom's Child]

I don't know of any teachers that soapbox against works... just that they teach Faith only [not works] for salvation - (Eph. 2:8-9). And the works are the RESULT of the genuine faith in action.

The bible teaches genuine salvation THRU FAITH which prompts the works we do in Christ's power.
After being empowered by God's Spirit (who lives IN us), we're able to endure and do the works God has for us to do.
Tts 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Tts/Tts003.html#5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Luk 7:50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk007.html#50) And he [Jesus] said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Paul is correct in his epistles, James just elaborates that there will be evidence (works) that follow the genuine salvation and prove the faith is real [alive] :)

In my opinion, if Faith is "dead", then you're faithless - unsaved. I don't grasp how works would get us to heaven without saving faith first whereby we have forgiveness thru Christ's shed blood?

Unfortunately, I have run across teachers out there that are so "target fixated" upon the salvation message that they respond negatively anytime the word "works" is mentioned, and are quick to condemn.
I have been accused of being a "works teacher" in the past, and I have witnessed many dead and lasy churches because of them.
For a christian, Salvation and Faith is a beginning not an end.
After Salvation comes Discipleship, Servanthood and Stewardship.
None of which can be taught without teaching good works.

[~InHisHands~]

I agree with Wes and Wineskin. Just because a person thinks they're a christian doesn't make them one.

[linssue55]

Do you guys reckon it is possible for somebody to have all the answers at church, know what it is to be a Christian, yet still be unsaved?

A few of my friends from church, Im just a bit worried about. They know all the answers, but they don't seem to show any evidence of a change in their lives. They lied and cheated last night for example, and didn't even show a hint of remorse, or even anything hinting at the fact they know they'd done wrong.

Anything scripturally answering me?

Thanks a billion.

YBiC

ProtABSOLUTELY!! Satan knows every word of the bible, and so do his cronies. This is just one of his plans to decieve.

Don't forget though....."ALL are sinners." even believers. Look at King David, he rap--ed Bathsheba, and had her husband murdered, and "HE" was a "Super Grace Believer." We ALL are to live our OWN lives unto the Lord, which is between ourselves and the Lord.



The doctrine of privacy


1. Definition of the doctrine: As a believer-priest you have the right to represent yourself before the Lord and live your life as unto the Lord.

2. The word “privacy” does not occur in the English Bible, but many words spell out the doctrine.

3. Freedom as protected by Divine Institution #4 (Nationalism) is actually the right to:
a) Reject Jesus Christ or accept Him without coercion.
b) Worship or not worship in the church of your choice.
c) Pursue a particular business.
d) Marry a particular person (believers with believers). Freedom to marry the right woman, or right man.
e) Pursue the spending of TIME as desired, just as long as it does not infringe on someone else’s rights.
f) Pursue the right of free enterprise and private ownership based on your own ability.

The above points are based on a variety of verses involving various doctrines such as the doctrine of right man, right woman, the utilization of time, of the believer in business, and so on.

4. Enemies of privacy and freedom: “A busybody.”
a) 2 Thessalonians 3:11 — “For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.”

A busybody is an “invader of privacy,” a “meddler in other persons’ affairs.” This person is a judger, a maligner, always sticking his nose in other people’s business. This particular meddling is due in part to a lot of time on their hands.

b) 1 Timothy 5:13 — “And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle, but tattlers and also busybodies, speaking things they ought not.”

This is a prime verse on women invading the privacy of the homes they visit, tattling, passing along the gossip. In both the verse above and the one in this one the context indicates that they get out of fellowship, get a vacuum in the soul, and get out of line by invading the privacy of others. This is trouble making in its worst form.

c) 1 Peter 4:15 — “But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.”

5. Invasion of privacy is akin to cannibalism — Galatians 5:15. “But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.”
a) This is mental murder, gossiping, maligning, sin of the tongue — you name it.
b) Why is privacy so important? Without it freedom is curtailed, and people enslave themselves very easily.

6. However it is not an invasion of privacy to be concerned about others, pray for others, help others.
Galatians 6:2 — “Bear ye one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.”

Note however, in the same context, a verse of caution, “For every man shall bear his own burden” — Galatians 6:5. Everyone should become spiritually self-sustaining as soon as possible after becoming a Christian.


The doctrine of privacy


1. Privacy is a state of being apart from observation and the company of others.
2. Privacy is the innate right of the human race to seclusion.
3. Privacy is that principle of freedom whereby the individual member of the human race has the right to retire from the company of others, remaining in seclusion from the knowledge or observation of others.
4. Privacy and property and life are the basic concepts of human freedom.
5. The laws of divine establishment guarantee the privacy of every member of the human race so that he can exercise his freedom uncoerced. Exception: criminals.
6. In addition to freedom and establishment every believer has additional privacy from his royal priesthood to fulfill the principle of living his life as unto the Lord.

The principle of privacy and the royal priesthood — 1 Peter 2:9.
The royal priesthood must have privacy to fulfill its mission in phase two. It must be able to function so as to live individually as unto the Lord — Colossians 3:17 demands privacy.
No believer has the right to intrude into the privacy of another believer.
Violation of privacy means judging. When you judge other people you are violating their privacy — Romans 14:4,10.
Privacy includes, then, the principle of live and let live — 2 Thessalonians 3:11,12.
Reversionists always violate the privacy of others — 1 Timothy 5:13.
Violaters of the privacy of others is comparable to other freedom violations. In other words, when you stick your nose into someone else’s business you are violating the very principle by which you live — freedom. Property is violated by stealing. Intrusion into the privacy of others in effect is compared to murder and stealing in 1 Peter 4:15.

[Nadiine]

Unfortunately, I have run across teachers out there that are so "target fixated" upon the salvation message that they respond negatively anytime the word "works" is mentioned, and are quick to condemn.
I have been accused of being a "works teacher" in the past, and I have witnessed many dead and lasy churches because of them.
For a christian, Salvation and Faith is a beginning not an end.
After Salvation comes Discipleship, Servanthood and Stewardship.
None of which can be taught without teaching good works.

Yes, I absolutely agree that works need to be taught.

No doubt what happens is, when one starts teaching about how important works are, people like me start getting panicky about people thinking the works are for the wrong thing (to attain or keep salvation).

At the opposite end, those like you who incorporate works listen to people like me who promote FAITH ONLY, and you might perceive that we're against works altogether.

It might be a problem of extremes even if we believe the same thing: Faith [only] for salvation, living faith prompting the genuine works - empowered by God in & thru us.

There definitely needs to be balance, I agree.

[Calminaion]

Do you guys reckon it is possible for somebody to have all the answers at church, know what it is to be a Christian, yet still be unsaved?

A few of my friends from church, Im just a bit worried about. They know all the answers, but they don't seem to show any evidence of a change in their lives. They lied and cheated last night for example, and didn't even show a hint of remorse, or even anything hinting at the fact they know they'd done wrong.

Anything scripturally answering me?

Thanks a billion.

YBiC

Prot

I struggle with doubts in my own heart in regard to my own salvation. Because of repeated sin in my life, I often ask whether or not I'm really saved.

First and foremost, realize it's not your place to determine whether or not your friends are saved.

Your job is to treat them in accordance with their claims. If they claim Christ, then when they sin, hold them accountable in accordance with Matthew 18.

Romans 4 tells us that faith without works is dead. One can have all the faith, but without revealing that faith through action (i.e., Christlike deeds), one does not have faith that is alive. In other words, one with "dead faith" may certainly be headed to heaven, but their life will be hellish. One with live faith can have a rich life and headed to heaven to have a richer eternity.

[marke]

In all things prove them. Your question is a good one and there are lots of opinions of which none matter.

WesWoodell did you a great favor and you should bless him. He didn't give opinion, he provided you with facts that answered your question without question.

We all sin to some degree or another and there is a reason we don't throw the first stone or any stone for that matter, we bring judgement upon ourselves and that is never a good thing.

I found after I was called to the Lord in 1979 that I had to find a whole new set of friends. Then I found out that my preacher lied and gave wrong teaching and the whole church had hardened their heart to this wrong teaching when, for example, faced with facts as presented by Wes, they didn't want to conform their beliefs to the teachings.

Find your way through study of the New Testament. Time and time again we are told to watch the actions and not the words to discern the truth.

For example, President Bush said "We don't torture" and yet time and time again fact present themselves to prove he lied about it. Prove everything. The devil is after your soul. Don't follow blindly. Read the words yourself and encourage your friends to follow the teachings. If the don't want to come to the light, you may need to find different friends.

God Bless!

[New_Wineskin]

Thankyou so much guys for all this. Very helpful. Continue to post advice if you have anymore, but what you guys have said helps so much! Thankyou again.

YBiC

prot

If people encouraged each other to know the Lord instead of the Scriptures and the Law , it wouldn't be this way .

[Protestante]

Oh trust me wineskin, I appreciate your sentiments, but my church most definitelty encourages people to know the Lord personally, through the Bible, admittedly, but definitely know the Lord.

I must continue to pray over this issue, study Gods Word and ask the Lord to make me a Godly example to them. Don't get me wrong, it is nowhere near everybody that I am talking about, but still a decent number.

Thanks again.

YBiC

[Nadiine]

If people encouraged each other to know the Lord instead of the Scriptures and the Law , it wouldn't be this way .

Not to 'pick' here - but this is an "either/or" statement... as if one is held in some sort of contempt and only the other means should be encouraged?
You might of meant it to relay a general point in context which I can understand.

"Legalists" promote the OT Law observance, and no Christians I know are full-fledged legalists. But we are supposed to support, exhort and be in obedience to God's laws (also found in His word). We need to be balanced tho.

Pointing people to the scriptures or encouraging scripture reading isn't "bad", is it? I'd like to think we can encourage people to know the Lord and offer the scriptures both at any given time when the situation is right.

You might have mainly meant people who ONLY point people to the bible or attack for sins..? I've definitely seen that done alot and it's NASTY -
All I can say to that is, I don't see God's love there and the fruit is bad. :sick:

:wave:

[Chococat]

Do you guys reckon it is possible for somebody to have all the answers at church, know what it is to be a Christian, yet still be unsaved?

A few of my friends from church, Im just a bit worried about. They know all the answers, but they don't seem to show any evidence of a change in their lives. They lied and cheated last night for example, and didn't even show a hint of remorse, or even anything hinting at the fact they know they'd done wrong.

Anything scripturally answering me?

Thanks a billion.

YBiC

Prot

I'd say it is definitely possible for someone to "talk the talk" yet not be saved. Both Jesus and Paul warn us about false believers. OTOH, only God knows a person's heart and we all do things we know to be wrong. Plus if your friends are new Christians it could be that the Holy Spirit has yet to do His work on their hearts. While salvation is immediate sanctification takes a lifetime. All you can do is pray for your friends and try to be a good example to them. Hope that helps.:hug:

[New_Wineskin]

Oh trust me wineskin, I appreciate your sentiments, but my church most definitelty encourages people to know the Lord personally, through the Bible, admittedly, but definitely know the Lord.

I must continue to pray over this issue, study Gods Word and ask the Lord to make me a Godly example to them. Don't get me wrong, it is nowhere near everybody that I am talking about, but still a decent number.

Thanks again.

YBiC

Understood . :)

[dinonum]

It is completely possible to have all the right answers. I mean seriously, is it hard for you?
Sunday School answers are seriously easy to come up with and you can even know the entire Bible without actually knowing God and Jesus.