Worshipping other gods

[Hagios17]

Why would you ever want to give praise to anything other than God? Why do you worship things other than God? (i.e. images, statues, actual living human beings, etc.)

This is a genuine question.

In Christ

Hagios17

[gtsecc]

Are you asking about icons, or are you asking hypothetically should we, or asking in reality do we sometimes want to. IN other words, sometime I want to worship things other than God, like a beautiful woman. You could say it turns my face from Christ, but it would be intelelctually dishonest for me to deny the innenr desire to do this, even though I know intellectually it is wrong.

[JasonV]

Are you asking about icons, or are you asking hypothetically should we, or asking in reality do we sometimes want to.

Yeah, the OP is a little vague. Frankly, I've never even seen an Anglican venerate either an Icon or a Statue. Of course, our Orthodox and Roman brethren do quite openly, but I would argue that neither of those churches advocates actual worship of the Icon or Statue. Rather they venerate what the Icon or Statue represents.

For the Romans, this enters that latria vs dulia argument. (and hyper-dulia for Mary.)


IN other words, sometime I want to worship things other than God, like a beautiful woman. You could say it turns my face from Christ, but it would be intelelctually dishonest for me to deny the innenr desire to do this, even though I know intellectually it is wrong.

Is it intellectually wrong to worship a woman (or her body)? Are we somehow placing her above god? The Commandment does specify that we should have no other gods before God. But what about after?

I say, worship of the creation only reflects back to the creator! Now where's my wife........:thumbsup:

[Hagios17]

"Are you asking about icons,"

I'm talking about apostles and people like that.

[Hagios17]

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[Hagios17]

"Christ as Hermes the good shepherd"?

[higgs2]

"Are you asking about icons,"

I'm talking about apostles and people like that.

You have the impression that we worship apostles? Or you have the impression that apostles worship other gods? :confused:

[CSMR]

Hagios:
This is the first sin whose origin has no human explanation but is the state in which we find ourselves. If a cause is to be sought it must be sought in God:
8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] (in hope etc.)

[TomUK]

Why do you worship things other than God?

We don't.

[JasonV]

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Sorry, but that does not invalidate veneration of icons or statues. And being in awe of the Universe does not mean that we're placing the creature above the creator. Or do you somehow believe that God's handiwork was not meant for our enjoyment?

[erin74]

How is veneration of statues or icons different to the golden calf thing in the OT - I am curious to hear this answer. I'm not trying to bait. I just would like to have some understanding of how people think it is different.

[SumTinWong]

Why would you ever want to give praise to anything other than God?
Define praise. If you mean give ultimate praise or steadfast loyalty I would not do that for anyone but God. But, I do praise my co-workers in Christ, by exhorting them on their race to the finish line.

Why do you worship things other than God? (i.e. images, statues, actual living human beings, etc.)
I do not worship anyone or thing but God, why do you assume that i do?

[SumTinWong]

How is veneration of statues or icons different to the golden calf thing in the OT - I am curious to hear this answer. I'm not trying to bait. I just would like to have some understanding of how people think it is different.
That is actually a fair question and my answer would be thus:
The Golden Calf was meant to be a God. When it was formed it was formed with worship in mind. All worship was to be set on that calf.

The icons and such are not created for such purposes. Each icon and shrine is a reminder of that person it represents, and the life they led for Christ. When in fact I did venerate icons and such i was paying tribute, not worshipping the person the icon represented. It is a form of respect.

Some HAVE taken things a bit too far in my opinion, but the fact remains nobody is worshipping the icon or the person behind the icon, and the icon was not made for that purpose. Does that help?

[TomUK]

How is veneration of statues or icons different to the golden calf thing in the OT - I am curious to hear this answer. I'm not trying to bait. I just would like to have some understanding of how people think it is different.

Good question. First of all i'd say to have to look to the bible.
Exodus 26:1 says:
"The dwelling itself you will make with ten sheets of finely woven linen dyed violet-purple, red-purple and crimson. You will have them embroided with great winged creatures." Remember this is only a few chapters after the giving of the ten commandments by God to Moses. God also gives Moses a similar command when talking about the Ark of the Covenant. After telling him to have two cherubim hammered out in gold at both ends of the mercy seat, God told Moses that "there i will come to meet you; from above the mercy-seat, from between the two winged creatures which are on the ark of the Testimony, i shall give you all my orders for the Israelites."

It is clear from scripture that not only does command the use of images in worship but his presence with his people is directly connected with him. Regardless whether you think this instructions are still applicable today, it is clear that images are in no way prohibited by the ten commandments.

What about today then? Why do Churches use statues and icons? I was read this the other day and i think it may help.

The old Chinese adage, "A picture is worth a thousand words," comes to mind. If we use word-pictures to illustrate our sermons, what about graphic pictures to illustrate the gospel of Christ itself? This is Saint John's [of Damascus] plea:
"Depict his wonderful condesecension, his birth from the Virgin, his baptism in the Jordan, his transfiguration on Tabor, his sufferings which have freed us from passion, his death, his miracles which are signs of his divine nature, since through divine power he worked them in the flesh. Show his saving corss, the tomb, the resurrection, the ascenion into the heavens. use every kind of drawing, word or colour."
Absolutely! Right on target! It is incredibely important that we Christians be allowed the latitude to depict Christ's humanity and work, because by his incarnation he revealed himself in and through matererial creation. And material creation thus sanctified must be allowed to reveal him.

A key distinction that we must make is between worship, which is for God and God alone, and honour and veneration. We honour many thinks in life. Scripture instructs us to honour fathers and mothers, husbands and wives. The pages of the bible, the Old Testament in particular are filled with instances of people honouring one another through bowing. To honour however we do not need to adore. Similarly, all veneration is a great level of respect. Most Christians would venerate the bible as the word of God. Do we worship the bible? Of course not! Through veneration we are honouring and respecting those things for what they represent. The bible represents the word of God, the statues of Saints represent a model of Christian virtue, icons represent for stories of Christ and the lives of those who have followed him as an example to us all.

We are slowly approaching the Christmas and i am reminded of the Magi following the star to the infant Christ. The star acted as a guide for the Kings, pointing them in the right direction and guiding them to the living God so that they may adore him. That is exactly why we have statues and icons - they point us towards to God and provide us with glimpses of a heavenly glory. We are sinful people who live in a fallen world. Left to our devices we would wonder the world aimlessly with no hope of salvation . However he sent Christ to redeem us to himself and provides us with the Saints and the company of heaven to point us back to his loving embrace. Statues and icons cannot be idolatry as through them we have the opportunity to glimpse the living God.

[gtsecc]

As far as I can tell Christianity was never iconoclast until the Muslims perverted it.
Muslims are iconoclast.
Christians are not.
I know a lot of Protestants don’t know that, and were taught otherwise, but we now know the truth.

[Aymn27]

Your pastor has been lieing to you...

We DON'T worship Idols- how retarded would that be?

We DO ask the saints to PRAY for us- which IS biblical!

I have a counter for you though, false prophets are supposed to break the church so why did you?:doh:
Do you not adorn statutes of the Virgin with flowers? Carry her in processions? Sing songs to her? Kneel before her image and ask her to bestow graces upon you?

There is a fine line that I think some Romans cross. Devotion, if overdone, can become worship - and the result is persons believing that they are not worthy to ask Jesus for anything but must go to Mary (and I have heard MORE THAN ONE Roman Catholic make that statement).

[Colabomb]

How is veneration of statues or icons different to the golden calf thing in the OT - I am curious to hear this answer. I'm not trying to bait. I just would like to have some understanding of how people think it is different.

The Jews were worshipping the Golden Calf. We do not worship Icons.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

One word.......


Television


How many of us are guilty of paying homage to tube almighty on a regular basis.

[pilgrimgal]

This topic question is a good one. Why would we ever worship anything other than God? How could we do that?

I am assuming we are referring to Christians in this. I think most Christians do intend to worship God alone and have no other God before them.

But...sometimes this worship and adoration gets moved to the side rather than the center. Instead of God being in the center of our lives something else is chosen and gets center stage. This can be a gradual thing until whatever it is takes over in thoughts and actions.

e.g. the love of money. Money is very important..I once heard it referred to as the blood of the Body of Christ...but when money is the motive behind and purpose for our lives we are off center. And it does matter too what we do with the money we have. Does God get His due? Stewardship...??

e.g. the inordinate love of people. No one should be on center stage but God. Surely we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves and others as Jesus has loved us. But behind it all and for it all must be the love of God.

e.g. the love of power. This is very subtle and can creep into the Church and our own lives easily. We see this often as church leaders or government leaders fall due to a love of power. God tells us it is "not by might or power but by My Spirit. "

Most of us seek good and want to follow God's will in our lives, but we can get off center even if we are Christians, church goers, and those who study the Word of God by emphasizing one part of the Word and making it our idol rather than all of God's Word. We need the guidance of the Spirit and the help of others in this.

We can begin to follow what seems to be good..e.g. Sin has often been described as an apparent good. We can chose sin and this can lead us away from God's grace.

So..we need to keep ourselves in God's Word, in good Christian fellowship, in prayer, and in balance in our lives.

God loves us so much that we are constantly drawn and lured by that love and helped to focus on God alone rather than what is deceiving and not of God.

Thanks be to God for that love and mercy.

[JasonV]

Lamb made of Gold ...symbol of God to worship God?

If God can create images in his likeness, why can't we do the same? Unless you are claiming a double standard for God. In which case, I would cease to worship God due to his hypocracy.

And... call this veneration thing what you may, but it is still worship, giving attribute to.

You neither understand the theology and semantics behind this, nor do you show any desire to learn. I would suggest you go and find a seat in a nice SBC church and leave the rest of us alone.

[Simon_Templar]

How is veneration of statues or icons different to the golden calf thing in the OT - I am curious to hear this answer. I'm not trying to bait. I just would like to have some understanding of how people think it is different.
There are several interesting things about this.

First, there is indication that when they made the golden calf they refered to it with the name of God.. Not thus setting it up as a different god, but claiming that it was God.

We know from historical data that earlier in canaan there was a god named El, which eventually became the hebrew general term for any divine being. (Eloh, Elohim)
El was ascociated with the image of a young bull. The term in hebrew for the golden calf, means not a young calf as in a baby, but a young adult bull.

It actually becomes a trend through out the perversions of the Hebrew religion that they take names for God, or titles for God, and apply them to other gods... or another way of looking at it, they apply false characteristics to the true God.

Molech for example in hebrew and aramaic is actually Melech which means "the King" it was a title of God. When the bible was translated they changed it to Molech because they didn't want to profane God by using his title to refer to a false God.

Baal, means "the Lord" basicly the same as Adonai in hebrew.
and so on.

The issue in most of these cases is, in some way, applying falsehoods to God.

Remember that the Israelites were not only forbidden from making images of false gods.. they were also forbidden from making images of the true God.
It was forbidden to make representations of God because he was not seen. He can not be represented completely by bulls, or doves, etc. Those things can represent aspects of him, but not all of him. Thus to make any image such as those, necessarily applies falsehood to God because it does not correctly express who he is. It can't represent him.

This very debate occured in early christianity over exactly this issue. Why can we use icons and statues when the OT forbade making images of God at all.

The argument, which the church eventually accepted was that the restriction upon making an image of God was removed by God himself in the incarnation of Christ.

In the incarnation God himself made a true and perfect image of himself. Thus in Jesus Christ, we have a perfect representation of the Father, we have a perfect image of the Father.
Thus we can make representations, because God himself did so, and lifted the restriction.

The church still forbids worship of any representation, be it Icon, or statue, but it allows them to be used as objects of meditation, and veneration. The belief beinf that they can lift the mind to that which they represent.

[gtsecc]

Lamb made of Gold ...symbol of God to worship God?

And... call this veneration thing what you may, but it is still worship, giving attribute to.

And why would you want to give any attribute to anything other than God when it says: love the Lord with all ... your heart, soul, mind and strength? No time to worship idols, because you gotta give it all... everything to God? Excuse the frankness. *You gotta give all tenderness

God says he is a jelous God. Why would you want to make him jelous?

God loves his sheep, and only wants his sheep to love and serve him, you cannot serve two masters.

God called his people unto himself... no one else did he call them unto. Acknowledge God. No human can save you. Only God can save you. Who died on the cross? - God! No other has earned the right to be called Almighty Saviour.

The old testament is rich with the idoletry of man. God hates... he hates idolatry. It's like spiritual fornication. Dishonesty to God. Half heartedness. Those evil idoletres made God so angry. Do you know how many idoletres God has killed?

The way is not through a human being, but through God. Christ is God. The point was that it starts and ends with God. He is the author and finisher. It starts and ends with Holy God.

If 100% of your heart was with God... your love for others would be fulfilled in him.

God is the way... he is the truth... he is the LIGHT! One way highway.

Please don't be too offended. I'm really concerned for Catholic brothers and sisters;)

In Christ

Hagios17
Read some stuff by the people who were guided by God to foprm the New Testament.
All the writings are online.
See who is is misunderstanding things.