Ted Haggard: accused of gay sex [Archive]

EturnaL

3rd November 2006, 02:15 AM

RonnyRulz

3rd November 2006, 05:54 AM

http://godsreal.org/?p=42
Pastor Ted Haggard: accused of gay sex (http://godsreal.org/?p=42)

November 2, 2006- Ted Haggard resigned his position as pastor of a 14,000 member evangelical Christian church in Colorado amidst accusations of him having gay sex on a monthly basis over the last 3 years. Not surprisingly, the accuser comes out just prior to Colorado’s voting on same sex marriages- which pastor Ted rightly opposes. The accuser, Dufbrain Peewinkle*, also says that Haggard used methamphetamine whenever they hung out. Haggard also denies this saying, “I have never done drugs, ever — not even in high school.” The accuser has presented no evidence- and seems to be making up nonsense just prior to a Colorado vote on gay marriage to sway things in his favor. Regardless, pastor Haggard will now be investigated by a board of pastor’s who will interview the man and review any evidence presented. It amazes me how one man’s accusations against a prominent evangelical pastor, without evidence or verification of any kind, makes national news headlines so quick. I would hope that Christians would give Teddy the benefit of the doubt before they jump on the bandwagon.

*Dufbrain Peewinkle is not his real name.

I would hope that Christians would give Teddy the benefit of the doubt before they jump on the bandwagon.

I agree, they are being very harsh and it's very odd to reach the news fast, but what do you expect? With so many past evangelists doing horrible stuff, or stuff like catholic priests and little boys, people are just waiting for someone to mess up so they can jump on them.

In my opinion, opposing gay marriage is a sin because it's hating homosexuals and is unbiased towards other sins (which aren't up for being banned or even oppose)
In my opinion, if he didn't sin in opposing gay marriage, He wouldn't be in this mess. Unless of course he did have gay sex, then he still would.

Note: My opinion may be wrong, but please at least respect it. Don't flame me please.

christianmomof3

3rd November 2006, 10:27 AM

In my opinion, opposing gay marriage is a sin because it's hating homosexuals and is unbiased towards other sins (which aren't up for being banned or even oppose)
In my opinion, if he didn't sin in opposing gay marriage, He wouldn't be in this mess. Unless of course he did have gay sex, then he still would.

Note: My opinion may be wrong, but please at least respect it. Don't flame me please.
I think most people will disagree with you here. Opposing sin (which gay marriage is) is not a sin.
Opposing gay marriage is not hating homosexuals, but upholding the standards revealed by the Lord.
We should hate the sin, but love the sinner.
Even in loving our homosexual friends, that does not mean that we should accept their actions and condone them as being proper when they are not.
Whatever Ted Haggard did or did not do, he certainly needs our prayer. :prayer:

MikeK

3rd November 2006, 11:05 AM

I think that Ronny Rulz is saying that he doesn't feel comfortable working to make some sins illegal and allowing other ones. If you want to keep gay marriage illegal because it is a sin, then it follows that you would include lying, failing to respect your parents, drinking too much (even in your own home), etc. I suspect that more people get drunk in their homes than will marry a same sex partner if it becomes legal.

Athanasian Creed

3rd November 2006, 11:15 AM

...
In my opinion, opposing gay marriage is a sin because it's hating homosexuals and is unbiased towards other sins (which aren't up for being banned or even oppose)
In my opinion, if he didn't sin in opposing gay marriage, He wouldn't be in this mess. Unless of course he did have gay sex, then he still would.

Note: My opinion may be wrong, but please at least respect it. Don't flame me please.

Your jokin' right??! Asking a Bible believing Christian to "respect" your opinion is asking them to disrespect God's Word and it's clear teaching on the sin of homosexuality (and adding to the sin by trying to normalize it by calling their "union" a "marriage"!!)

You need to get your head in the Word of God and learn that marriage is an institution created by God - one man and one woman in convenant relationship with God and themselves "till death do us part"

Opposing sodomite marriage is not "hating gays" - it is telling them the truth, in love, that their lifestyle is an abomination in the eyes of God - homosexuality has always been and always will be. The Bible calls it "unnatural" and the Apostle Paul calls homosexuals "unrighteous...who will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God..."

"Hating gays" would be agreeing and accepting their lifestyle as normal, natural and God honouring. Truly loving them would be being honest with them in sharing God's disapproval of their lifestyle (in love, genuine concern and humility)

Love the sinner, HATE the sin - of which homosexuality is one! ;)

Ray :wave:

EturnaL

3rd November 2006, 11:18 AM

If you don't oppose gay marriage- you are probobly very caught up in sin and not headed to heaven.

jad123

3rd November 2006, 11:26 AM

If the allegations are true then he should have resigned as he did. I hope that if they are true he will stand before the church and before God and beg for forgiveness.

prophecystudent

3rd November 2006, 11:48 AM

As a number of commentators have said, "The timing of this is just too strange."

Less than a week before the election and this comes out? Supposedly been going on for 3 years?

Come on, folks, that community of sinners will do anything to get their lifestyle approved by the law.

And yes, homosexuality is a sin, always has been, always will be.

As I see it, this is just another wildeyed, lefty maneuver to discredit Evangicals and to sway the voters to vote for gay marriage.

I cannot say for sure whether the pastor is guilty, or not, but until I see some evidence (other than the word of a gay whore) I'll opt for innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Fred

Zecryphon

3rd November 2006, 12:01 PM

http://godsreal.org/?p=42
Pastor Ted Haggard: accused of gay sex (http://godsreal.org/?p=42)

November 2, 2006- Ted Haggard resigned his position as pastor of a 14,000 member evangelical Christian church in Colorado amidst accusations of him having gay sex on a monthly basis over the last 3 years. Not surprisingly, the accuser comes out just prior to Colorado’s voting on same sex marriages- which pastor Ted rightly opposes. The accuser, Dufbrain Peewinkle*, also says that Haggard used methamphetamine whenever they hung out. Haggard also denies this saying, “I have never done drugs, ever — not even in high school.” The accuser has presented no evidence- and seems to be making up nonsense just prior to a Colorado vote on gay marriage to sway things in his favor. Regardless, pastor Haggard will now be investigated by a board of pastor’s who will interview the man and review any evidence presented. It amazes me how one man’s accusations against a prominent evangelical pastor, without evidence or verification of any kind, makes national news headlines so quick. I would hope that Christians would give Teddy the benefit of the doubt before they jump on the bandwagon.

*Dufbrain Peewinkle is not his real name.
I don't think it's the accusations that are making the headlines, I think it's the fact that Haggard has resigned in light of the allegations being made. I personally think Haggard should stay in his position while he battles these allegations. Stepping down, does kinda make him look guilty. I don't think he is. I saw Ted Haggard interviewed a year or so ago, and my initial gut reaction to him, was that I did not like him. Why? Because he smiled too much. It was creepy. Never trust a man that smiles THAT much. LOL

JTLauder

3rd November 2006, 12:18 PM

I don't think it's the accusations that are making the headlines, I think it's the fact that Haggard has resigned in light of the allegations being made. I personally think Haggard should stay in his position while he battles these allegations. Stepping down, does kinda make him look guilty. I don't think he is. I saw Ted Haggard interviewed a year or so ago, and my initial gut reaction to him, was that I did not like him. Why? Because he smiled too much. It was creepy. Never trust a man that smiles THAT much. LOL

Yes, I found it very suspicious why he stepped down. But after reading a news article about it, it makes sense in a way. If the church panel is going to be conducting an investigation, for him to remain in position would be a conflict of interest and any conclusion reached would draw suspicion of influencing things his way.

The article also say he admitted to some indiscretion and guilt but just not all the accusations. Although no details are given, I think that clears up any confusion.

Zecryphon

3rd November 2006, 01:48 PM

Yes, I found it very suspicious why he stepped down. But after reading a news article about it, it makes sense in a way. If the church panel is going to be conducting an investigation, for him to remain in position would be a conflict of interest and any conclusion reached would draw suspicion of influencing things his way.

The article also say he admitted to some indiscretion and guilt but just not all the accusations. Although no details are given, I think that clears up any confusion.
We'd have to know what the indiscretion he is talking about is and why he feels a little bit guilty about it. I read on, I believe it was Fox News' website yesterday that Haggard said he was completely innocent and had done nothing wrong. Then I read your post and discover that well there is something wrong. He had an indiscretion and feels guilty about it. If he did have an indiscretion, he should come clean with it now and save himself future embarassment and charges of covering up the truth. This thing sorta has a Clintonesque feel to it, and it shouldn't if Ted is telling the truth about his past.

JTLauder

3rd November 2006, 04:17 PM

I read the article from the NBC site.
Some more details are coming out now on USAToday:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-02-evangical-sex-claims_x.htm

pgp_protector

3rd November 2006, 04:40 PM

If you don't oppose gay marriage- you are probobly very caught up in sin and not headed to heaven.

What if you don't oppose other sins, would the same apply ?

MikeK

3rd November 2006, 04:56 PM

What if you don't oppose other sins, would the same apply ?

Better still, if you don't oppose outlawing all other sins - would the same apply?

RonnyRulz

3rd November 2006, 05:25 PM

Better still, if you don't oppose outlawing all other sins - would the same apply?
Thanks MikeK and pgp, you guys are smart.

Your jokin' right??! Asking a Bible believing Christian to "respect" your opinion is asking them to disrespect God's Word and

I'm far from joking. All Christians should respect EVERYONE's opinion and beliefs, regardless if they are right or wrong. There's a difference between respect and belief. Respecting someone else's opinion is being mannerly, kind, and gentle. But just because you respect their opinion/belief doesn't mean you think it's right, doesn't mean you can't voice your own opinion/belief that they're wrong, all it means is respect.

Example: You can respect a muslim's religion without making Jesus any less than He is. You can respect the muslim guy's religion, but still voice your belief in Christianity and that he is wrong.

Don't confuse respect with other stuff. Respect doesn't mean you adhere to their belief. Respect just means you aren't a closed-minded pompous jerk. If you DON'T respect others, that is when you disrespect God and His Word. What you do to others is what you do to God. If you disrespect others, you are disrespecting God.

R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

But I see no disrespect with anyone, so everyone obviously is cool and respectful, which is very nice :)
The only disrespectful thing that's been said is what you just said, saying everyone should disrespect me. That wasn't very disrespectful though, so like I said, everyone seems to be respecting my view and opinion, I don't see the problem.

Amisk

3rd November 2006, 06:15 PM

[QUOTE=christianmomof3;28519499I think most people will disagree with you here. Opposing sin (which gay marriage is) is not a sin......Opposing gay marriage is not hating homosexuals, but upholding the standards revealed by the Lord.......We should hate the sin, but love the sinner........Even in loving our homosexual friends, that does not mean that we should accept their actions and condone them as being proper when they are not......Whatever Ted Haggard did or did not do, he certainly needs our prayer.[/QUOTE]

You are correct on the Homosexual issue. However it is easy to condemn the Homosexual because most of us are not caught up in this sin.
Still our brother is correct when he wonders: Quote:
Originally Posted by EturnaL
If you don't oppose gay marriage- you are probably very caught up in sin and not headed to heaven.

What if you don't oppose other sins, would the same apply ?
Quote.

It seems that some sins are okayed by Christians while railroad others.

Homosexuality is a sin according to scripture. No doubt there.

How about pre-martial sex. I heard a minister say, that statistically over sixty percent of Church youth are involved in pre martial sex. Preachers don't even trouble themselves to read the 10 Commandants in Church in case somebody might be guilty of the 7th Commandant.

What about the 3rd commandment? An ever growing number of Christians use the Lord's name in vain. When they don't come right out and use His name they have favourite substitutes for it.

What about divorce and remarriage? Mathew 19 should be plan enough. Divorce for adultery only. Today 50% of Church marriages end up in the divorce courts. Most for reasons other than elicit sex. It is also said that there are more divorced folks in the church than there are widows or widowers.

While divorce is allowed for adultery, there is no place in scripture that tells us that re-marriage after the divorce is okay. The sin of divorce is followed by the sin of adultery when folks re-marry, according to scripture but it goes unconfessed amount church people just the same. Even ministers are included in this list now.

Does God wink at some sins and come down with an iron bar on others. No place in scripture are we told that.

No, I don't belittle the sin of Homosexuality, but we need to get the life of the Christian back under the blood of Christ, and it must be followed by striving to live a holy life style. Something the Church seems to have long forgotten.

Some seem to feel that this minister pleaded guilty when he resigned.

I disagree. He did the wise thing for the good of his church and the organization he was working with. When he is exonerated, then he can re-entre the ministry, but he has take the steps that will do less damage to the church which ever way the out come goes.

Yes, he and his family and the church need much prayer and less condemnation at this time. The World will come down hard enough on them, they don't need Christians joining the Chorus.

RevKidd

3rd November 2006, 08:46 PM

Apparently Haggard has now admitted to a massage and buying Meth. But has said that he never used it, only was curious.

He also states that he was referred to "Mike" to get the massage by a Denver hotel.... Intresting...

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/loc...306172921.html (http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_306172921.html)

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/03/D8L5PJLO0.html (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/03/D8L5PJLO0.html)

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061103/D8L5IM680.html (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061103/D8L5IM680.html)

lilymarie

3rd November 2006, 09:07 PM

Apparently all that has been revealed is mostly pointing towards drug use.

For instance if this were a male prostitute and a drug dealer, then why isn't this accuser arrested?

Also, I think it's pretty much hearsay and that this pastor had a massage and was offered drugs, but in some stories is admitting to some drug use.

However, what else I read is that he will speak about it soon.

I'm wondering if they are waiting for results of lie detector tests, as Mr. Jones (his accuser) failed the first one and now they are scheduling a second lie detector test.

However, I'm not jumping to any conclusions.

And I'm not particularly standing up for anyone or any politic party as I've never heard of the man before yesterday evening when the news broke on the net. I still don't even really know who he is, but I would treat all people being accussed of something without proof the same.

I just think it's gossip and hearsay as it stands right now.

However, yes, I've prayed for his family.

Svt4Him

3rd November 2006, 10:30 PM

Feel free to address issues, please stop attacking character.

[rule2.1]

macrohard

3rd November 2006, 11:35 PM

No problem Mod, glad you spoke up.

I'll be honest, I was completely expecting stuff like this to come up, especially before a very important election. (I just play to much chess, and can sometimes see the move before it happens)

The church I attend recently went through its own pastoral crisis this past summer. I wont and will not divulge details, only that the people who were in charge of overseeing this matter were in prayer and asking guidance for what would be the best situation on solving the issue with the least amount of damage and what would be best for everyone involved. In the end it worked out the best, but we have scars.

There are people in charge of overseeing this issue, let them do what they need to do. God is in control, and in the end he'll determine what is best.

bithiah2

4th November 2006, 02:15 AM

I saw Ted Haggard interviewed a year or so ago, and my initial gut reaction to him, was that I did not like him.

i feel the same.
and for the one who called the accuser a gay whore, would it be ok if the person was just a regular whore?
i hope that this man is not down/low, but if he is then God should expose him and all the rest of the lying preachers.

that is all i have to say

bithiah2

Everlastinglife

4th November 2006, 09:38 AM

Matthan

4th November 2006, 02:43 PM

We can all fall down. God will pick up Hisown, dust them off, and sent them on His way once again. If Haggard is a Christian, then he can expect to get yelled at something fierce. If he is not a true Christian, then he can expect to be parboiled, and poached, and fried, and baked, and then parboiled again, and....

Matthan

FLA2760

4th November 2006, 05:05 PM

Hi
My prayers go out to Ted Haggard and his family. If this did happen I pray for his deliverance. If it is a lie I pray for his vindication. Lets not forget that election day is next week! Things have a way of hitting the news the week prior to elections. We are to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. God Bless

Leimeng

4th November 2006, 06:57 PM

Annie101

4th November 2006, 06:59 PM

If it is true, it was a horrible witness for the Lord. :(

I overheard some folks laughing about it last night.

Nadiine

4th November 2006, 07:19 PM

~ Who is the accuser of the brethren? Is Mr Haggard one of our brethren? Do you want to be associated with his accuser?
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

AMEN, I pray this doesn't turn into a lynch-mob thread before the man's found guilty OR innocent.

I think it goes without saying, we don't KNOW the facts and cannot speak on the issue until there is proof or confession by him directly.

So...I can't say as I find a whole lot of necessity for a thread of this nature until after the facts have been revealed and we can speak with some knowledge either way.

So, I'll just shut up here :kiss:

Jacob4707

4th November 2006, 08:01 PM

Apparently he was brazenly lying when he gave that first very lengthy interview to the TV station.

- - -

http://www.newlifechurch.org/pressrelease110606.pdf

Dear New Lifers and friends of New Life Church,

This is the press release from the Board of Overseers that will be released to the media this afternoon. We want you to know first what the actions of the overseers are going to be.

Please continue to pray for Pastor Ted and his family and let's all continue to stand strong together for the kingdom of God. We will get through this together. Remember, New Life Church has never been a man, or a building or anything else--we are a family.

Pastor Ross
November 4, 2006

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
New Life Church
Colorado Springs, Colorado

We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard. Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct.

The language of our church bylaws state that as Overseers we must decide in cases where the Senior Pastor has "demonstrated immoral conduct" whether we must "remove the pastor from his position or to discipline him in any way they deem necessary."

In consultation with leading evangelicals and experts familiar with the type of behavior Pastor Haggard has demonstrated, we have decided that the most positive and productive direction for our church is his dismissal and removal.

In addition, the Overseers will continue to explore the depth of Pastor Haggard's offense so that a plan of healing and restoration can begin.

Pastor Haggard and his wife have been informed of this decision. They have agreed as well that he should be dismissed and that a new pastor for New Life Church should be selected according to the rules of replacement in the bylaws.

That process will begin immediately in hopes that a new pastor can be confirmed by the end of the year 2006. In the interim, Ross Parsley will function as the leader of the church with full support of the Overseers.

A letter of explanation and apology by Pastor Haggard as well as a word of encouragement from Gayle Haggard will be read in the 9:00 and 11:00 service of New Life Church.

FollowingJesus

4th November 2006, 08:08 PM

Haggard has caused quite a mess of many people's lives.

I saw him only once in an interview, and like others, disliked him immediately.

The 'escort' said he didn't know who he was until he saw him on television recently. I believe that...I've only seen him that one time.

I also believe that there's even more sordidness to come of this story...

Athanasian Creed

6th November 2006, 11:46 AM

Meth and a massage. His sin is between him and God now. He should be forgiven, however dealt with harshly in the church for the damage he has caused. Ted Haggard now represents these kind of people.......People who can now sit back and laugh at those so called christian hipocrit fools. Thanks Ted. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Are you are never hypocritical?? Christians are going to be "laughed at" whether we live holy lives or are hypocrites!

The man was tempted and fell into habitual sin - we are warned by the Word of God -

1 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 4:16 (a) (KJV) Take heed unto thyself...

IOW, what happened to him could just as easily happen to you (or me) if we fail to daily put on the FULL armour of God (Ephesians 6).

You (or anyone else) is not his Judge (and the Judge has no jury!) so rather than direct anger towards him, PRAY for him, that the Lord restore him to the joy of His salvation.

Put it this way, IF it was you, instead of him, would you want Christians anger and condemnation or would you want their prayers??

Prayer changes things and it changes the people that pray! ;)

Ray :wave:

jad123

6th November 2006, 12:04 PM

Are you are never hypocritical?? Christians are going to be "laughed at" whether we live holy lives or are hypocrites!

The man was tempted and fell into habitual sin - we are warned by the Word of God -

1 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1 Timothy 4:16 (a) (KJV) Take heed unto thyself...

IOW, what happened to him could just as easily happen to you (or me) if we fail to daily put on the FULL armour of God (Ephesians 6).

You (or anyone else) is not his Judge (and the Judge has no jury!) so rather than direct anger towards him, PRAY for him, that the Lord restore him to the joy of His salvation.

Put it this way, IF it was you, instead of him, would you want Christians anger and condemnation or would you want their prayers??

Prayer changes things and it changes the people that pray! ;)

Ray :wave:

He should be given both. He should be given our prayers. But he shuold also be held accountable for his actions. He is only confessing as the truth comes out. From what I heard his church fired him and I applaud them for standing up for the gospel.

Athanasian Creed

6th November 2006, 12:11 PM

~ Who is the accuser of the brethren? Is Mr Haggard one of our brethren? Do you want to be associated with his accuser?
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

Just as we can't act as Judge and jury toward Haggard, neither can we assume that he is "one of our brethren" - only God knows that and we can judge one's life by the fruits but we can't judge the motive.

There are many that profess to be "Christians" but their lives/doctrine prove otherwise - Christians are supposed to be a "peculiar people", and one who is in Christ is a "new creation"

This is not to say Mr. Haggard might not have been a true Christian who fell and, as the Prodical Son, needs to return to the Father in repentance and humility.

Let us pray that he will indeed do that and be restored. :prayer:

Ray :wave:

Athanasian Creed

6th November 2006, 12:20 PM

He should be given both. He should be given our prayers. But he shuold also be held accountable for his actions. He is only confessing as the truth comes out. From what I heard his church fired him and I applaud them for standing up for the gospel.

Agreed 100%. "To whom much is given much is required" It is the Church's responsibility to discipline Mr. Haggard, not individual Christians. We should pray for his reconciliation to God and take heed "lest we fall" NONE of us are beyond reproach in our Christian walk - we need to heed the Scriptural admonishment -

Ephesians 5:15 (KJV) See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

See then that ye walk circumspectly. Carefully, anxiously, solicitous lest you fall into sin. The word rendered "circumspectly" in the Greek means, diligently; and the idea here is, that they were to take special pains to guard against the temptations around them, and to live as they ought to. (Barnes)

God help us all to walk even as He walked in all we do! :prayer:

Ray :wave:

Nadiine

6th November 2006, 03:48 PM

He should be given both. He should be given our prayers. But he shuold also be held accountable for his actions. He is only confessing as the truth comes out. From what I heard his church fired him and I applaud them for standing up for the gospel.

I totally agree with you.

Now that he's admitted his sins publically, I hope & pray he's able to get his life back together & on track with God.
I feel bad for the man, but he's really given alot of atheists & unbelievers serious ammunition. And I saw his wife while he was up there admitting his guilt... there's a woman & family that need our prayers too!
We often forget to pray for the immediate family members caught up as innocent victims of sin. :sigh: :cry:

I agree with Athanasian's verses, take heed lest WE fall!!! We can fall at any time.

Q: do you guys think that once he seeks forgiveness, and some time has passed, that he should be restored back to his same position? I know Jim Baker & Jimmy Swaggart who both 'fell from grace' publically are both back on tv ministries.
Just wondering...

InDeoHonorium2

6th November 2006, 03:54 PM

Ephesians 5:15 (KJV) See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

See then that ye walk circumspectly. Carefully, anxiously, solicitous lest you fall into sin. The word rendered "circumspectly" in the Greek means, diligently; and the idea here is, that they were to take special pains to guard against the temptations around them, and to live as they ought to. (Barnes)

God help us all to walk even as He walked in all we do! :prayer:

Ray :wave:

You brought up a good point and so did the one post before yours. The problem here is that when something like this happens, too many of us will get angry and jump on the condemnation wagon, thinking it will make us look or feel better to do so, when in reality, it does not.

What we need is to truly be able to forgive, not just say we do but truly to let it go.

This man has violated the trust and prayers of many of his followers. No, he should not be allowed into the pulpit again, and yes, there needs to be a recourse for what he did, but in the end, he would have to answer to God......

Consider this: When something tragic like this happens, have you ever thought of the message it sends to Non-Christians?
I have spent a lot of time in non-Christian religious groups, and a lot of time in "alternative" Christian groups. Many of the people there tell me, over and over again, that they were turned off by traditional religions, by the focus on money, on membership and the hypocrisy of the leadership. Here, this guy preached one thing while practicing something else.....that is hypocrisy in action. And it is not acceptable in the Christian community, or at least it should not be. But for someone who has already been turned off by someone or something that happened to them in , then something like this happening only shames and further alienates those who are looking for ammo against the Body of Believers.

To overcome this, we, as believers, need to bring something positive to OUR message. We don't need to condemn, or accuse, or deny, but we need to live our lives as an example to show others how not all followers and (hopefully) leaders are like this.

WOW that's a tall order

And brethren, I beg you, please please please don't HATE this man for what he has done. If Jesus were here he would take him aside, privately talk to him about what hypocrisy means, then he would forgive him and send him out with the charge of going forwarded and sinning no more. Or something like that

But Jesus would not Hate him. Hatred is destructive, and it is not from God. Please don't hate, and please encourage others the same way ........That will be my focus in this......

jad123

6th November 2006, 04:15 PM

I totally agree with you.

Now that he's admitted his sins publically, I hope & pray he's able to get his life back together & on track with God.
I feel bad for the man, but he's really given alot of atheists & unbelievers serious ammunition. And I saw his wife while he was up there admitting his guilt... there's a woman & family that need our prayers too!
We often forget to pray for the immediate family members caught up as innocent victims of sin. :sigh: :cry:

I agree with Athanasian's verses, take heed lest WE fall!!! We can fall at any time.

Q: do you guys think that once he seeks forgiveness, and some time has passed, that he should be restored back to his same position? I know Jim Baker & Jimmy Swaggart who both 'fell from grace' publically are both back on tv ministries.
Just wondering...

Excellent point that his family really needs our prayers as well. As for questions, I feel strongly about this and the answer is no he should not.

1Ti 3:1 Faithful is the Word: If anyone reaches out to overseership, he desires a good work.
1Ti 3:2 Then it behooves the overseer to be without reproach, husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, well-ordered, hospitable, apt at teaching,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not contentious, not greedy of ill gain, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous,
1Ti 3:4 ruling his own house well, having children in subjection with all honor.
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man does not know to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 not a novice, lest being puffed up he may fall into the condemnation of the Devil.
1Ti 3:7 But he must also have a good report from those on the outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the Devil.
1Ti 3:8 Likewise the deacons are to be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of ill gain,
1Ti 3:9 having the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be tested, then let them minister without reproach.
1Ti 3:11 Even so their wives are to be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and households well.
1Ti 3:13 For they having served well gain a good grade for themselves, and much boldness in the faith, those in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 3:14 I write these things to you, hoping to come to you shortly.
1Ti 3:15 But if I should delay, that you may know how you ought to behave in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

FollowingJesus

6th November 2006, 05:42 PM

Here are the exact letters from Haggard and his wife:

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2006/1105/20061105_104946_HaggardLapologize_Letter.PDF

Godslilgurlalways

7th November 2006, 01:20 AM

\

In my opinion, opposing gay marriage is a sin because it's hating homosexuals and is unbiased towards other sins (which aren't up for being banned or even oppose)
In my opinion, if he didn't sin in opposing gay marriage, He wouldn't be in this mess. Unless of course he did have gay sex, then he still would.

Note: My opinion may be wrong, but please at least respect it. Don't flame me please.

Not going to flame (lol)

I just want to say I oppose gay marriage the thing is to hate the sin not the person committing the sin.It's not hating them but hating the lifestyle they choose to leave which isn't according to God's word not.Hating the sin itself , the sin which is in the person not the person itself. For me if I was to vote I would be against it b/c it's to have a gay marriage or to be gay is against the morals and principles by which I go by:)

Nadiine

7th November 2006, 06:13 AM

All Christians should respect EVERYONE's opinion and beliefs, regardless if they are right or wrong. There's a difference between respect and belief. Respecting someone else's opinion is being mannerly, kind, and gentle. But just because you respect their opinion/belief doesn't mean you think it's right, doesn't mean you can't voice your own opinion/belief that they're wrong, all it means is respect.

Example: You can respect a muslim's religion without making Jesus any less than He is. You can respect the muslim guy's religion, but still voice your belief in Christianity and that he is wrong.

Don't confuse respect with other stuff. Respect doesn't mean you adhere to their belief. Respect just means you aren't a closed-minded pompous jerk. If you DON'T respect others, that is when you disrespect God and His Word. What you do to others is what you do to God. If you disrespect others, you are disrespecting God.

R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

so like I said, everyone seems to be respecting my view and opinion, I don't see the problem.

There's a huge difference between respect of the opinion itself and THEIR RIGHT to have the opinion.

I do NOT respect false religions or opinions that oppose what is good or true - which lead people AWAY from the truth & theTrue God... how do you respect that which destroys and kills? :scratch:

I believe we're called only to respect other human beings RIGHT TO BELIEF. We all equally have a right to our own opinions/beliefs & we all have them, BUT I DO NOT HAVE TO RESPECT THE OPINIONs OR BELIEFs themselves.

Am I to "respect" a terrorists hatred of Jews & Christians & the genocide they seek to commit? I DON'T!
Am I to "respect" a woman's decision for partial birth abortion?
I could list a load of things people do & want to do here.
I would HOPE we can see that it's not the belief/opinion of others that we have to respect OR LIKE. Rather, GOD allows their free will to do & say things contrary to what are good or right.

Here's what GOD SAYS:
Psa 97:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa097.html#10) Ye that love the LORD, hate evil:
Rom 12:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom012.html#9) Hate that which is evil; cling to that which is good.
Pro 8:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Pro/Pro008.html#13) The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Jhn 7:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn007.html#7) The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
:sigh: :swoon:

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 06:34 AM

There's a huge difference between respect of the opinion itself and THEIR RIGHT to have the opinion.

I do NOT respect false religions or opinions that oppose what is good or true - which lead people AWAY from the truth & theTrue God... how do you respect that which destroys and kills? :scratch:

I believe we're called only to respect other human beings RIGHT TO BELIEF. We all equally have a right to our own opinions/beliefs & we all have them, BUT I DO NOT HAVE TO RESPECT THE OPINIONs OR BELIEFs themselves.

Am I to "respect" a terrorists hatred of Jews & Christians & the genocide they seek to commit? I DON'T!
Am I to "respect" a woman's decision for partial birth abortion?
I could list a load of things people do & want to do here.
I would HOPE we can see that it's not the belief/opinion of others that we have to respect OR LIKE. Rather, GOD allows their free will to do & say things contrary to what are good or right.

Here's what GOD SAYS:
Psa 97:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa097.html#10) Ye that love the LORD, hate evil:
Rom 12:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom012.html#9) Hate that which is evil; cling to that which is good.
Pro 8:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Pro/Pro008.html#13) The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Jhn 7:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn007.html#7) The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
:sigh: :swoon:
lol Nadiine, you and your semantics. It's always about semantics with you :P

I'd go to school to be perfect at english and describe everything in such detail as to have perfect semantics for you, but I don't really care that much, lol.

;)

Nadiine

7th November 2006, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by RonnyRulz http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=28515174#post28515174)
In my opinion, opposing gay marriage is a sin because it's hating homosexuals and is unbiased towards other sins (which aren't up for being banned or even oppose)
In my opinion, if he didn't sin in opposing gay marriage, He wouldn't be in this mess. Unless of course he did have gay sex, then he still would.

Note: My opinion may be wrong, but please at least respect it. Don't flame me please.

Can I ask how we take the leap that disagreement or opposition is "hatred of others"? By your assessement, ANY MORAL ISSUE you disagree with becomes "hatred of the people involved in it".

Can we say the same of pedophilia? Child/spousal abuse? Violence? Theft? Lying? Rape? Adultery? Fornication?

Doesn't God oppose "SIN"? (yes). If God opposes sin, then is He HATING all who sin? Or, rather, does God HATE ALL SIN, but LOVE the sinners?
There's a disconnect here, as if to dissapprove of immoral principles, we're automatically hating the PEOPLE who do them.

The 'sin' Haggard is guilty of, IS HYPOCRISY/wrongful judgment. He was condemning a sin that HE HIMSELF WAS ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN. IE. He was condemning himself as he preached.:swoon:

Rom 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom002.html#21) you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

Opposing sinful principles isn't wrong, what's wrong is committing the very wrongs you Teach are sinful.
It's called hypocrisy; doing the very thing you speak against.

Lastly, if it's wrong to oppose principles that are sinful (according to scripture), then Paul, Moses, Jesus, John & Peter have a BIG problem.

Nadiine

7th November 2006, 06:57 AM

lol Nadiine, you and your semantics. It's always about semantics with you

I'd go to school to be perfect at english and describe everything in such detail as to have perfect semantics for you, but I don't really care that much, lol.

Well, to some it mite look like I'm a drama queen :kiss: - it's just my typing style... like it says on my profile, I use text emphasis. I have a hard time proofreading my posts if I don't break it up and change color. It's actually more of a reading flaw I have - eye strain with small black text on brite white bg. OUCH! :sick:

Not everyone digs my style :mad: - & that's ok.

All I can say is, I hope you (& anyone else) can get past my "personal flair" to read the meanings behind all the 'semantics'. :angel:

jad123

7th November 2006, 09:29 AM

I agree, they are being very harsh and it's very odd to reach the news fast, but what do you expect? With so many past evangelists doing horrible stuff, or stuff like catholic priests and little boys, people are just waiting for someone to mess up so they can jump on them.

In my opinion, opposing gay marriage is a sin because it's hating homosexuals and is unbiased towards other sins (which aren't up for being banned or even oppose)
In my opinion, if he didn't sin in opposing gay marriage, He wouldn't be in this mess. Unless of course he did have gay sex, then he still would.

Note: My opinion may be wrong, but please at least respect it. Don't flame me please.

Oppsoing gay marriage is a sin??? You have got to be kidding me. Then I guess opposing abortion, rape, incest, murder, lying, cheating, lust, adultery, etc. etc. is a sin as well.

Just my opinion.

RonnyRulz

7th November 2006, 10:44 AM

Nadiine

7th November 2006, 02:26 PM

Eh, I honestly give up. I've debated with people for over 9 years, and it always ends the same way: I keep my view, they keep theirs.

I'm fully convinced that I can never changed someone and that only God can change people (me or you) and that it's even hard for Him to change us LOL.

I give up because I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over because they didn't get me the first time. Just read all of what I have to say, and if it's not good enough, then that's not my problem, I don't care lol.

I only say this stuff because I care about people and see that SO MANY are hating homosexuals and all the harmful things that politics bring, but if no one is going to listen or understand, there's nothing I can really do.

How about the many who HATE Christians/Christianity?? Christians have plenty of groups that hate them.

Homosexuality is a MORAL issue, and clearly covered in scripture by God AS SINFUL.
AS SIN, we are to be opposed to the lifestyle, YET LOVINGLY REACH OUT TO THEM (or ANY IN SINFUL LIFESTYLES) to lead them to the Lord of truth.

Sure, some proclaiming Christians are wrongly hostile, use name calling, and harsh judgments... BUT MANY LIKE MYSELF DO NOT! There's a right and wrong way to witness. (calling is "SIN" is not wrongful witness).
Just because we oppose immorality, doesn't mean we HATE everyone doing it.

Homosexuality is a sin like any other: gluttony, lying, stealing, rape, drunkeness, incest, abortion/murder, extortion, bearing false witness, witchcraft, fornication, adultery, abuse, slander and all the rest.
GOD CALLS US ALL TO REPENT. not just some.

You attribute our HATRED to the people of this particular group, when to be unbiased & fair, it needs to be applied across the board to ALL known sins listed above.

If I were to agree with you, I'd be admitting that I HATE all homosexuals because I oppose the practice of it as sinful. And I KNOW I do not hate them!

Athanasian Creed

7th November 2006, 06:44 PM

...Q: do you guys think that once he seeks forgiveness, and some time has passed, that he should be restored back to his same position? I know Jim Baker & Jimmy Swaggart who both 'fell from grace' publically are both back on tv ministries.
Just wondering...

Anyone can get a TV 'ministry' - look at the Benny Hinn's and Peter Popoff's of the world!! Charlatans and heretics both!

Jim Bakker admitted that he was wrong (wrote a book with that title) and has renounced much of what he espoused before (if not all) Jimmy Swaggart apologized on national TV (who can forget the "i've sinned against You my Lord!" with tears streaming down his face) AFAIK, both of them only confessed after they were caught but both paid their dues so to speak.

The only thing being, Swaggart refused to submit to the authority and discipline of the AoG and his ordination with them was removed. I don't know whether he is ordained with any denomination now or just an 'independent' Same goes with Jim Bakker.

That being said, i'd listen to both of those men over many on TV today.

As for Haggard, no, i don't believe he should ever be restored to a position either with the NAE or in a pastoral position. We have to hold such men who hold such position to a higher standard - "to whom much is given, much is required!";)

Ray :wave: