On the Eucharist...

[jukesk9]

The Catholic Church teaches that the bread and wine are transformed, by the power of the Holy Spirit, into the Physical Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.  The appearance and taste remain but the substance is changed.  Hence, the Catholic Church has attempted to explain this mystery by calling this process Transubstantiation. 

Does the Orthodox Church teach that the bread and wine are changed into Christ, leaving only the appearance and taste of bread and wine?  What are your thoughts on Transubstantiation?

[CopticOrthodox]

We often use the word transubstantiation, but we don't agree with all of the Catholic doctrine titled Transubstantiation. We believe that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. It's no longer bread and wine, it is the Body and Blood. But we don't go into the details of trying to understand exactly how. We don't make statements about whether every cell, neuron, bone, etc, is present in each piece. All that seems to us to be missing the point. He told us that it is His Body and Blood, and we believe Him. The Catholic Church recognizes our Sacraments, including Communion, as valid.

[jukesk9]

Thanks. I knew the Catholic Church recognized the Orthodox Sacraments as valid. I was just curious since the word Transubstantiation wasn't coined until after the Schism (and well after 451).

[Edouard]

What scripture refernce does the orthodox church use in order to define this belief? Corinthians tells us of this event and to my knowledge; communion is done remembrance. In this case it is defined as to proclaim the Lord' death until he comes again.

Now on the aspect of transubstantiation:
In Corinthians Christ says this is my body and blood and in both instances he says, " do this in remembrance of me"

This is done so we do not forget that Christ shed his blood on the cross and his body was broken. So my question is, where does the refence come from that this is an actual miracle occurring ?

Let us view communion:
eat this bread, my body that was broken for you
Christ on the cross was beaten so badly that another person had to carry the cross.

drink this wine, my blood shed for you
while christ was on the cross, as Isaiah prophesied, a spear pierced His side and blood spilt from His body.

So again I ask, where is the scriptural reference that this is a miracle?

Edouard
May God bring us peace and understanding.

[panterapat]

Edouard,

Please read with a literal understanding and a prayerful attitude John 6.

Jesus repeats Himself several times telling those present. "I solonmly assure you my Flesh is real food and My Blood is real drink." Nowhere in scripture is anything stated so emphatically and absolutely.

In Christ, Patrick

[CopticOrthodox]

There is a chapter in this book on Communion: http://suscopticdiocese.org/stmaryhouston/ss/priesthood.pdf

[Chris†opher Paul]

Ed-

http://www2.ministries-online.org/s0uljah/eucharist.html

[panterapat]

Hey CP- Good to see you back!

[Chris†opher Paul]

Thanks. :)

[Hoonbaba]

12th April 2003 at 11:45 PM Edouard said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=781501#post781501)

What scripture refernce does the orthodox church use in order to define this belief? Corinthians tells us of this event and to my knowledge; communion is done remembrance. In this case it is defined as to proclaim the Lord' death until he comes again.

Now on the aspect of transubstantiation:
In Corinthians Christ says this is my body and blood and in both instances he says, " do this in remembrance of me"

This is done so we do not forget that Christ shed his blood on the cross and his body was broken. So my question is, where does the refence come from that this is an actual miracle occurring ?

Let us view communion:
eat this bread, my body that was broken for you
Christ on the cross was beaten so badly that another person had to carry the cross.

drink this wine, my blood shed for you
while christ was on the cross, as Isaiah prophesied, a spear pierced His side and blood spilt from His body.

So again I ask, where is the scriptural reference that this is a miracle?

Edouard
May God bring us peace and understanding.



Edouard,

Corinthians tell us that:

"A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. This is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep." (1 Cor 11:28-30)

Can you imagine dying because you took the Eucharist in unworthy manner??

Paul's letter to the Corinthians also says:

Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16)

God bless!

-Jason

[Andrew]

Why is it Catholics take the wafer but dont drink from the cup, except the priests?
IOW its only half complete.

It is also true that you cant bite on the wafer (otherwise you are biting 'Jesus') but have to let it slowly dissolve in your mouth or slip down your throat?

[panterapat]

Today at 02:40 AM Andrew said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=791424#post791424)

Why is it Catholics take the wafer but dont drink from the cup, except the priests?
IOW its only half complete.

It is also true that you cant bite on the wafer (otherwise you are biting 'Jesus') but have to let it slowly dissolve in your mouth or slip down your throat?




Catholics do drink from the cup. It depends on the decision of the local bishop. But the entire Body and Blood of Christ is contained in both species- the Body and Blood.

I think the thing about not biting the host is an old nun's tale. If you need to bite you can. But you wouldn't want any to get stuck in your teeth. so bite reverently.

In Christ, Patrick

[Andrew]

ok thanks. I attended Mass a couple of times b4. (My 2 ex-girlfriends were Catholic).

of course, after I found out that only baptised Catholics were allowed to take the communion, I stopped taking it. needless to say, I was a little hurt but I chose to obey the rules of the church.

anyway, I noticed that only the priests drink from the cup, while the entire congregation only lines up to take the wafer. I've never seen a Mass where the congregation drinks from the cup too.

also, why is it you can't touch the wafer? ie only the priest can place it on your tongue. In Singapore, becos of the SARs outbreak, the priests dont do that now for fear of contracting the deadly disease.

[CopticOrthodox]

In the Orthodox Church the congregation receives under both species. In the Eastern Orthodox Church the Body is placed in the Blood, and then a spoon is used by the priest to put the Body soaked in Blood in the person's mouth. In the Oriental Orthodox Church the congregation first goes up and receives the Body (the priest places It in our mouths), and then goes again and receives the Blood (the priest places It in our mouths with a spoon). We do not touch the Body because we are not worthy. We believe it to be truely His Body, and as such worthy of all respect. Only a priest (full deacon or higher), who has been consecrated (set aside) soely for the service of God in the Church may touch It to communicate the people.

[isshinwhat]

I noticed that only the priests drink from the cup, while the entire congregation only lines up to take the wafer. I've never seen a Mass where the congregation drinks from the cup too.

All of the Churches that I have regularly attended communicate under both species. I have visited two churches that only communicated with the Body, but as Christ is present wholly in it, no one misses out on anything, though I prefer to receive both the Body and Blood at Mass.

also, why is it you can't touch the wafer? ie only the priest can place it on your tongue.

You can receive the Eucharist in the hand, and I often do. Occasionally I will opt for the tongue, but usually I receive in hand.

God Bless,

Neal

[pax]

This is a little off topic, but I do have a quick question. Do the Orthodox reserve the Blessed Sacrament? If so, is it ever exposed for adoration by the faithful?

Pax

[CopticOrthodox]

The Eastern Orthodox (as far as I know) reserve the Eucharist during Lent so that they can Communicate the people during the week without having a Liturgy, since it's their tradition not to celebrate the joyful Divine Liturgy during the week for the seasul of Lent. The Oriental Orthodox do not reserve the Eucharist, based on the restrictions placed on the manna and the sacrafices in the OT. We have Liturgy every day without restrictions, so that doesn't create a problem with Communicating people. The Eucharist is taken to the sick immediately after a Liturgy, either by the priest or by a full deacon if there is one. No Orthodox (to my knowledge) have adoration, since the emphasis of our theology is on mystery, and presenting the Body out in the open to be viewed runs contrary to that.

[MariaRegina]

...
Now on the aspect of transubstantiation:
In Corinthians Christ says this is my body and blood and in both instances he says, " do this in remembrance of me"

This is done so we do not forget that Christ shed his blood on the cross and his body was broken. So my question is, where does the refence come from that this is an actual miracle occurring ? ...
Edouard
May God bring us peace and understanding.


My dearest joy in Christ, Edouard

Christ is Risen!

Here's a true miraculous story: A couple of years ago, a devout Roman Catholic visited an Orthodox Church in Santa Barbara. She wanted to receive Holy Communion. She imitated the other communicants and approached the Holy Chalice. As she did so, suddenly fire leaped out of the chalice and she jumped backwards. The priest saw the fear in her eyes and asked her if she were Orthodox. She said "no". She was only allowed to kiss the chalice, which to her surprise was cool. Afterward, she told the priest about the fire which he didn't see. He told her that God is a Consuming Fire, instructed her for about 6 months and then chrismated her into the Orthodox Church. Miracles do happen in the Orthodox Church.

Look at St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians. St. Paul warns people not to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ unworthily because some people became sick or died after doing so. Now would ordinary bread and wine kill? No. Christ is truly present. Communion is truly His precious Body and Blood. If a person partakes of communion unworthily, he eats and drinks unto his damnation.

Something to think about.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth