What are your feelings about this?

[GordonSlocum]

"In 1541 the reforming forces again gained control in Geneva and Calvin was invited back there. That same year he had the Ecclesiastical Ordinances promulgated. This outlined the activities of the four classes of office bearers in the Church. It provided for an association of pastors to administer discipline, a group of teachers to teach doctrine, a group of deacons to administer the work of charity and, most important of all, the consistory, composed of six ministers and twelve elders, to supervise the theology and morals of the community and to punish when necessary the wayward members of the Church by excommunication. In order to set up an effective system Calvin used the state to inflect more severe penalties. (bold red emphasis mine)


Such penalties proved to be much too sever ,fifty-eight being executed and seventy six exiled by 1546."

Source

"Christianity Through The Centuries" by Cairns and Published by Zondervan, Copy right 54, and 57
page 342

If He lived today would he be tried for Murder?

[Calminaion]

Why does it matter?

What I mean is, you seem to have an underlying agenda in bringing this up, so what is it? Why bring this up, here, now?

[prophecystudent]

Why does it matter?

What I mean is, you seem to have an underlying agenda in bringing this up, so what is it? WHy bring this up, here, now?
My thoughts, exactly. Agenda?

Fred

[BigNorsk]

It does seem like a confusion on Calvin's part of the two kingdoms and that always seems to produce problems. The state of course has the power of life or death over it's citizens, the only restraint on that is the potential overthrow by it's citizens or it's punishment and overthrow by those outside it's jurisdiction, usually other states.

Of course that was common in those times and Calvin himself had known what it was like to be in fear of your life from others.

The church and the state had gotten quite confused throughout Europe, something that continues to various degrees to this day. And it did get started over on this side of the ocean as well. But, in general, the US moved away from the confusion of the two and so over time generally became fairly religiously tolerant. Though to this date the government still retains the power of life and death of it's citizens. And to this date, that power still seems to be misused at times. At least it seems to me to be misused.

Marv

[FollowTheLamb]

It's a reminder that we are to be in the world but not of it. That is, we are not to use the world's government to police the church. One of the problems I've found in my earlier church was laying down the law. It seems that the more mature men had ideas for holy living and instead of teaching it from the Word so we could grow into it, they made it a rule we were to follow. So instead of growing in grace, we followed the law. Calvin did not see the grace of God nor the power of God to change men's hearts, so he looked to the law and severe punishment. God changes the heart from inside to create a people who genuinely love Him. You can't create that kind of heart by laws from the outside.

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Probably yes.

[WesWoodell]

Calvin was a heretic. What do you expect?

[Starcrystal]

Why does it matter?

What I mean is, you seem to have an underlying agenda in bringing this up, so what is it? Why bring this up, here, now?

Probably because a lot of people still follow Calvin and calvinism has spawned many denominations which seem to be at odds with non calvinist denominations?
And sometimes it's good to look at roots. After all, Jesus makes referrence to some of the Old Testement history....

But since I am not a Calvinist to me it just shows how people can screw up by creating denominationalism....as well as confusing grace and the law.

[Reyanah]

Probably so.

[Jody7818]

That was an interesting read. I never knew that about Calvin. I wonder any of the church leaders where severely punished in that time period.

[RonnyRulz]

Calvin was a heretic. What do you expect?
Heretic isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can be good if the current religious leaders are bad. Like Jesus! And Martin Luther was a heretic, :D

[New_Wineskin]

If He lived today would he be tried for Murder?

It is a shame that he and Luther were not tried for murder . Typical of christians in power - they make rules and consider themselves above the rules they make and enforce .

[mont974x4]

It is a shame that he and Luther were not tried for murder . Typical of christians in power - they make rules and consider themselves above the rules they make and enforce .
ummm wow

[marke]

It's a reminder that we are to be in the world but not of it. That is, we are not to use the world's government to police the church. One of the problems I've found in my earlier church was laying down the law. It seems that the more mature men had ideas for holy living and instead of teaching it from the Word so we could grow into it, they made it a rule we were to follow. So instead of growing in grace, we followed the law. Calvin did not see the grace of God nor the power of God to change men's hearts, so he looked to the law and severe punishment. God changes the heart from inside to create a people who genuinely love Him. You can't create that kind of heart by laws from the outside.
You've got that right.

God bless.

[Calminaion]

What are my feelings about this?

1. The initial question is loaded.
2. Too many people worship Calvin.
3. Calvin was right about some things, wrong about others, and was a sinner just like you and I.
4. Gordon Slocum has forgotten about this thread.