Hypocrisy???

[HisBelovedMelody]

This was brought up in another thread, but didn't want to side track that one. SO, going to try and hopefully keep this civil, whilst learning.

My mom turned to the Catholic faith some years ago. 5-6 maybe. Anyway in order to do this, the church 'overlooked' some of the issues that is claims to hold in high standard. For instance...

She was married 3 times, the 4th is when she was Catholic and wanted it in the church. SO, to do this, she had the first 2 annuled at 600$ each..please and thank you to a fast working priest. NOW, the problem I have, and believe is hypocrisy is...NOW that her marriage to my father is annuled...that leave my sister and I as??? what?? The 'church' over looked the fact of kids in a marriage (and kids are supposedly sacred to the church)...to get a convert. PLUS, she had her tubes tied..another 'sin' in the church. :o These things are vry bothersome to me.

[GraceInHim]

Is this a question for Catholics since your Mom is a Catholic?

[HisBelovedMelody]

Is this a question for Catholics since your Mom is a Catholic?
it is open. I hope this can stay civil, and i will try to contain my hurt and anger over many issues that surround this.

Mom converted about 6-7 or so (give or take) years ago. My point being that the Catholic denomination over looked alot of things THEY say they hold sacred. Kids...(in the eyes of the church, the marriage didn't happen so obviously neither did the kids from the marriages), never mind that she was married 3 times before...

[GraceInHim]

I married a divorced Catholic and he had his first marriage in the church annulled, this does not make the children from his first marriage any less Catholic.

They are still Catholics, made their communions and confirmations.

[INRI2]

Her first three marriages were not in the Catholic church Right?


and had her tubes tied before conversion right?

May a man/woman not change, is it forbidden for the light to enter? Did Christ come to impose his judgement over our sins or to set us free from them so that we sinners may enter the kingdom of heaven?

The jews had such a hard time when Jesus mixed with sinners, tax collectors etc and labled him as a blasphemer when he forgave them their sins.

You should rejoice not be sad. You mother has been granted Gods Mercy and Forgivness and been given a whole new life in Christ.

[HisBelovedMelody]

I married a divorced Catholic and he had his first marriage in the church annulled, this does not make the children from his first marriage any less Catholic.

They are still Catholics, made their communions and confirmations.
no sweetie, you missing the point. the kids aren't catholic (kids=me and my sister). Nor do we want to become one. Or at least me..don't know about my sister. SO she is the only catholic...

[HisBelovedMelody]

Her first three marriages were not in the Catholic church Right?


and had her tubes tied before conversion right?

May a man/woman not change, is it forbidden for the light to enter? Did Christ come to impose his judgement over our sins or to set us free from them so that we sinners may enter the kingdom of heaven?

The jews had such a hard time when Jesus mixed with sinners, tax collectors etc and labled him as a blasphemer when he forgave them their sins.

You should rejoice not be sad. You mother has been granted Gods Mercy and Forgivness and been given a whole new life in Christ.
correct to the first 2 questions. and for the rest...Lord help me not get angry here....I don't see that as sin. HOW can it be sin??? Just cause she converted and the other 3 marriages weren't catholic doesn't make it that they didn't happen! The marriage obviously was consummated...so the annulment in my opinion was just the church turning its head.

[GraceInHim]

I should say, this does not make my step children any less Christian then my own.. we all have to answer to God for our own sins.. cannot say these children are not Christians.. Maybe they are not Catholic, they did not enter the RCC.. still makes them no less a Christian

[HisBelovedMelody]

I should say, this does not make my step children any less Christian then my own.. we all have to answer to God for our own sins.. cannot say these children are not Christians.. Maybe they are not Catholic, they did not enter the RCC.. still makes them no less a Christian
exactly. But how does the church just for the convenience of having a member just over look these facts? PLUS take money to annul marriages that IT looks on as wrong/sinful...whatever?!? It just isn't right.

[FijianBeliever]

Hi JudahsPraise,

I also participated in the previous thread you referred to in your OP.

This is how I see it.

Children are a reward, a gift from God. Therefore, your standing and that of you sister's does not depend on what you parent's marital status is now, it depends on the gift giver, which is.......God.

God chose to give you life, so why are you worried? Don't worry about what other's say. It's God's opinion of us that matters.

God Bless You All, and you my sister,
Isaia

[HisKid1973]

What is annullment? Why does a church do it..Why does it cost money... Is it like a lawyer and a divorce settlement?..Thanks..Kim

[HisBelovedMelody]

Hi JudahsPraise,

I also participated in the previous thread you referred to in your OP.

This is how I see it.

Children are a reward, a gift from God. Therefore, your standing and that of you sister's does not depend on what you parent's marital status is now, it depends on the gift giver, which is.......God.

God chose to give you life, so why are you worried? Don't worry about what other's say. It's God's opinion of us that matters.

God Bless You All, and you my sister,
Isaia
yeah, that thread got deleted..unfortunaltely, cause there was some good stuff there. Don't know how to go about getting it..but oh well.

See, for me being a born again diciple of Jesus, I don't care what the catholic denomination says. I was just provoked into the questions I had asked....and funnily enough, the ones that were in the thread that provoked it couldn't/wouldn't answer. SO I was just curious as to how they could do that!

[INRI2]

I don't see that as sin. HOW can it be sin??? Just cause she converted and the other 3 marriages weren't catholic doesn't make it that they didn't happen! The marriage obviously was consummated...so the annulment in my opinion was just the church turning its head.


Married outside the Church... Sin

Steralization... Sin

The three marriages were not Catholic Marriages.... why should the church be forced to recognise them?

[HisBelovedMelody]

What is annullment? Why does a church do it..Why does it cost money... Is it like a lawyer and a divorce settlement?..Thanks..Kim
annulment, in short is the Catholic denomination just comes along and for a fee..for my mother it was 1200$ for both, to say they (marriage) never happened/existed.

[pehkay]

What make you a believer is not which organization are you in. It is matter of regeration, of receiving the divine life of God.

[HisBelovedMelody]

Married outside the Church... Sin

Steralization... Sin

The three marriages were not Catholic Marriages.... why should the church be forced to recognise them?
WHY should the church call it a sin??? WHO gave them the right? It is NOT a sin. That is another HUGE issue I have with this denomination, cause they view anyone outside the catholic denomination not 'christian' or whatever. that simply isn't true. I won't adhere to ALOT of the stuff this church perpetrates.

[HisBelovedMelody]

What make you a believer is not which organization are you in. It is matter of regeration, of receiving the divine life of God.
amen, thank you sister. God IS SO good..that he doesn't look at denominations. Praise God for that.

[GraceInHim]

exactly. But how does the church just for the convenience of having a member just over look these facts? PLUS take money to annul marriages that IT looks on as wrong/sinful...whatever?!? It just isn't right.

They do not overlook the facts, believe me, seen it all..

take money? what a few bucks,.. tithing my dear..

It just is not right? then how is it right for a Christian from any denomination to leave his wife or wives and remarry and no church to except them?

[HisKid1973]

annulment, in short is the Catholic denomination just comes along and for a fee..for my mother it was 1200$ for both, to say they (marriage) never happened/existed.

How can they do that?? God sure knows it happened..k

[HisBelovedMelody]

They do not overlook the facts, believe me, seen it all..

take money? what a few bucks,.. tithing my dear..

It just is not right? then how is it right for a Christian from any denomination to leave his wife or wives and remarry and no church to except them?
they seemed to in this case..and I am sure many plenty others..1200 wasn't a tithe trust me. It was to say hey, ok, your marriages NEVER happened. Nope, not a tithe..sorry. Its not right that a church orginazation comes along do that. For the record, I don't believe divorce etc. is right..but to declare it NEVER happened in the 'churches' eyes?? mmmm, no..that is wrong.

[INRI2]

an annulment is when a member of the Catholic faith considers his/her marriage not to be a true marriage. Its like a divorce only that its not a divorce, because an annulment means the marriage actually never took place to begin with, it was not recognised by God.

The money I suspect would be for all the paper work, the union has to be seperated by law and that costs money.

[HisBelovedMelody]

How can they do that?? God sure knows it happened..k
cause they can! they are catholic and apparently can do what they want!

[GraceInHim]

this thread is directed at a specific denomination - Catholics - moving to subforum here in GT.

Please if you have specific questions concerning a denomination - please post it in demomination specific theology or rather go to their congregation on CF and post in their forum, they love questions.

peace

[HisBelovedMelody]

an annulment is when a member of the Catholic faith considers his/her marriage not to be a true marriage. Its like a divorce only that its not a divorce, because an annulment means the marriage actually never took place to begin with, it was not recognised by God.

The money I suspect would be for all the paper work, the union has to be seperated by law and that costs money.
again though, WHO gave them that right?? If that is true, my marriage must not be legit. in God's eyes...NO! It is! I took my vows before HIM! SEE what I mean? Tis takes on a life of its own!

[FijianBeliever]

Hi All,

Married outside the Church... Sin

Steralization... Sin

The three marriages were not Catholic Marriages.... why should the church be forced to recognise them?

How can you respond like that? This is obviously a person who is hurting, and all you can do is to condemn her? An you call yourself Christian?

How is being married outside the Church a sin? If it is, then every marriage conducted outside the Church is a sin, and that would include...(let's see)...
Adam & Eve
Abraham and Sarah
Isaac and Rebekah
( basically all marriages before the Catholic Church were came into being)

A marriage is a marriage if it is consumated, not because it is "recognised" by a particular Church. Consumation is the key, not recognition.

Judahspraise, do not be provoked. Love is not provoked.

God Bless you All,:groupray:
Isaia

[HisBelovedMelody]

Hi All,


How can you respond like that? This is obviously a person who is hurting, and all you can do is to condemn her? An you call yourself Christian?

How is being married outside the Church a sin? If it is, then every marriage conducted outside the Church is a sin, and that would include...(let's see)...
Adam & Eve
Abraham and Sarah
Isaac and Rebekah
( basically all marriages before the Catholic Church were came into being)

A marriage is a marriage if it is consumated, not because it is "recognised" by a particular Church. Consumation is the key, not recognition.

Judahspraise, do not be provoked. Love is not provoked.

God Bless you All,:groupray:
Isaia
thank you. I won't. NOW the thread got moved again..this should be interesting! NOT that I am not willing to learn..but this? Not so sure. Shall see.

[L3g3nd]

SO, going to try and hopefully keep this civil, whilst learning.

cause they can! they are catholic and apparently can do what they want!


Why can't this stay civil?

[GraceInHim]

they seemed to in this case..and I am sure many plenty others..1200 wasn't a tithe trust me. It was to say hey, ok, your marriages NEVER happened. Nope, not a tithe..sorry. Its not right that a church orginazation comes along do that. For the record, I don't believe divorce etc. is right..but to declare it NEVER happened in the 'churches' eyes?? mmmm, no..that is wrong.
In the eyes of the church it happened, the church keeps records, my hubby's record still shows he was married to his first wife. :) and we are best freinds :thumbsup:

love is more important then what a church says.. :)

If you do not believe divorce, then sorry, many of my sisters had bad marriages and could not live on, rather be divorced then beaten.

why do you care if you say you do not believe in the RCC?

[HisBelovedMelody]

Why can't this stay civil?
I am really hoping it can. BUT as you see, others are just as abrasive....not that makes me being that way right. I apologize.

Why do I care?? Cause I Love my mother...and wish she never got sucked into this. I really do. Her choice for sure. I love her the same. You are right, that in God's eyes, it did happen..and I am here as a result. I guess I care too, cause said church claims to be the only 'true' church and yet, they don't hold to THE Truth! They over look, side step, dance around issues just to have converts. Seems deceptive as well as hypocritical.

[GraceInHim]

You love your Mother, so this should not be a problem. I have many sisters who are not practicing Christians, do not go to church, sin daily, like they think they can do what they want. That is more which hurts me then who goes to what church or what a church says.. Jesus covers all who come to him.. pray for them

[INRI2]

WHY should the church call it a sin???
WHO gave them the right?


are you christian at all?

You sound more secular!

The church calls it a sin, if a Catholic is married outside the church it is a sin, it is fornication, co habbitation..IT IS NOT MARRIAGE

Who gave them that right... Jesus

whatever you bind on earth and all that, ring any bells?

who's sins you forgive they are forgiven etc

That is another HUGE issue I have with this denomination, cause they view anyone outside the catholic denomination not 'christian' or whatever. that simply isn't true. I won't adhere to ALOT of the stuff this church perpetrates.

Protestants are only Christians according to the Catholic faith only by their baptism into the Catholic faith even if it is in another denomination a faith which they protest.

So Christian/catholic yes...practicing Catholic/christian no.

It just is not right? then how is it right for a Christian from any denomination to leave his wife or wives and remarry and no church to except them?

Amen ! This whole thread is hypocrisy

How can they do that?? God sure knows it happened..k

Thats just it..it didnt happen according to God.

You were sure it happened, thought you saw it happen with your eyes... but not according to God.....there was no marriage.

cause they can! they are catholic and apparently can do what they want!

more or less yes!

Obviously we have to remain faithful to the apostolic tradition handed down, but we have this great law giving the church powers to bind and loosen.

[HisBelovedMelody]

You love your Mother, so this should not be a problem. I have many sisters who are not practicing Christians, do not go to church, sin daily, like they think they can do what they want. That is more which hurts me then who goes to what church or what a church says.. Jesus covers all who come to him.. pray for them
practicing christians = catholic?? Guess I am not a good 'christian' then...oh man....

[HisBelovedMelody]

are you christian at all?

You sound more secular!

The church calls it a sin, if a Catholic is married outside the church it is a sin, it is fornication, co habbitation..IT IS NOT MARRIAGE

Who gave them that right... Jesus

whatever you bind on earth and all that, ring any bells?

who's sins you forgive they are forgiven etc



Protestants are only Christians according to the Catholic faith only by their baptism into the Catholic faith even if it is in another denomination a faith which they protest.

So Christian/catholic yes...practicing Catholic/christian no.



Amen ! This whole thread is hypocrisy



Thats just it..it didnt happen according to God.

You were sure it happened, thought you saw it happen with your eyes... but not according to God.....there was no marriage.



more or less yes!

Obviously we have to remain faithful to the apostolic tradition handed down, but we have this great law giving the church powers to bind and loosen.
YOU are kidding I hope?????????? If you aren't you have TOTALLY turned me OFF of this denomination. There are ALOT of people living in sin then...cause they didn't get married in this institution...oh goodness..i am going to try and remember my manners.

YES< I am a christian because I HAVE accepted the wonderful gift God gave me by shedding HIS blood on the cross. I CONFESS Him as my saviour. am I a catholic? NO! NEVER will be either....

YOUR denomination calls it a sin...NOT God. SHOW me SCRITPURE. WHAT in heaven's name does binding and losing in heaven have to do with ANYTHING?!?!?!!? NOTHING..at least concerning marriage. It is NOT sin to not be a catholic. DUH, it DID happen! It produced THREE children...so yeah, in a sense I was there...YOU admit that the Catholic denomination can DO WHAT IT WANTS???? OK...at least that we agree on.

[GraceInHim]

practicing christians = catholic?? Guess I am not a good 'christian' then...oh man....

I have a Baptist sister ;) who stopped being a Christian..

meaning, gave up the walk with Christ, turned back on Christ and walked the walk she walked before.. pray she comes back whichever church she goes to, even if she does it alone in her home, she is a child of God not mine and not anyone elses :)

[GraceInHim]

amen, thank you sister. God IS SO good..that he doesn't look at denominations. Praise God for that.

no, he looks at your heart and your mind and soul :thumbsup:

[HisBelovedMelody]

are you christian at all?

You sound more secular!

The church calls it a sin, if a Catholic is married outside the church it is a sin, it is fornication, co habbitation..IT IS NOT MARRIAGE

Who gave them that right... Jesus

whatever you bind on earth and all that, ring any bells?

who's sins you forgive they are forgiven etc



Protestants are only Christians according to the Catholic faith only by their baptism into the Catholic faith even if it is in another denomination a faith which they protest.

So Christian/catholic yes...practicing Catholic/christian no.



Amen ! This whole thread is hypocrisy



Thats just it..it didnt happen according to God.

You were sure it happened, thought you saw it happen with your eyes... but not according to God.....there was no marriage.



more or less yes!

Obviously we have to remain faithful to the apostolic tradition handed down, but we have this great law giving the church powers to bind and loosen.
I am sorry you have to be so mean and cruel. You haven't helped the catholic cause in my eyes. I was honestly trying to learn..but you have succeeded at pushing me further and further away from this religion. Thank you Jesus I have relationship with You, not religion.

[HisBelovedMelody]

no, he looks at your heart and your mind and soul :thumbsup:
Thank you, that is very helpful.

[GraceInHim]

Thank you, that is very helpful.
what I look at here is we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.. let God judge who is not.

Good Night

[Rebekka]

Judahspraise, I don't know if this is of any help - I hope so:

I don't understand why the priest who helped your mother get her annulments said you and your siblings were not legitimate. As far as I know, in case of annulment the children born in the annulled marriage still remain legitimate for the church. I think the priest who said they were not legitimate made a mistake. And it was definitely insensitive.

It is hard to understand why a marriage that 'never existed' (which is how annulment, roughly, is understood) still was able to bring legitimate children into the world, but I have read on catholic sites about canonic law (in Dutch, so I can't quote them) that children from these annulled marriages are recognized by the church as legitimate.

[FijianBeliever]

The church calls it a sin, if a Catholic is married outside the church it is a sin, it is fornication, co habbitation..IT IS NOT MARRIAGE

What do you call marriages between non-Catholic Christians then?

[HisBelovedMelody]

my point is, it is hypocritical. JUST to get members into the denomination? *sigh....whatever.

[L3g3nd]

my point is, it is hypocritical. JUST to get members into the denomination? *sigh....whatever.

You keep saying that this was all just an attempt to add a member to the congregation; do you think the church should not forgive? People sin, this does not mean that they are banned from the church forever.

[Peaceful Dove]

Hey Church,
I will try to give you the information I know about this situation. I know a little because my son, who was also married 3 times has also gone through the annulment process as did my girlfriend. She went through 5 marriage in all and after her second, marriage, the Priest would not consider her appeal again. She was not and at the age of 70, still incapable of making a firm committment.
This is really going to be hard to explain since so much has been said already and feelings are running high. I can see there has been some real hurt.
I am also not really good with words and pray, I do not make the situation worse.
In the Catholic Church, marriage is a Sacrament, one of the 7 Sacraments.
Each Sacrament requires certain things to be present, to make that Sacrament valid WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Only the Catholic Church can determine what makes a Catholic Sacrament valid. Do you agree with me so far? We must respect the authority the Lord put over us. Surely, not every Christian agrees with this and these rules are not put over every Christian, just Catholics. This is not to say that every Christian is not part of the Body of Christ but how can everyone be bound by Catholic rules?
So... Jesus said in scripture, "whosoever puts away his wife and marries another, except for immorality, commits adultery..."
For many years, annulment was not used in the Church. However, over recent years, there has been less and less commitment to the Sacrament of Marriage. If these marriages were indeed made in Heaven and were truly Sacramental, they should indeed, last.
The Catholic Church determined that all of the elements required to make a for life, Sacramental marriage must be missing. A very detailed investigation is made, letters are written to former inlaws, friends and of course the former spouse asking specific questions. For an annulment to be eventually granted, these folks have to be willing to answer the questions and cooperate with the Marriage Tribunal. If not the annulment is almost always denied.
There is much more that I am not aware of. I can tell you this, scripture is involved and much prayer as well as Spiritual discernment. I realize that from the outside looking in, it doesn't seem like it but since it was my son involved and I was one of the witnesses and had to testify by answering these questions ...and...I was Maid of Honor at my best friends wedding, and we lived next door to each other, and I was God Mother to her children, I know what happened with her.
The other thing I do need to mention here. This only affects the Catholic Sacramental part of the marriage. The Church recognizes that the marriage is legal in civil law and a civil divorce is necessary to end that so that any children involved are indeed ligitimate.

That is the best I can do. I know it is not a great explanation but it is the best I can do.

Peace of Jesus Be With You

[HisBelovedMelody]

You keep saying that this was all just an attempt to add a member to the congregation; do you think the church should not forgive? People sin, this does not mean that they are banned from the church forever.
yes. GOD can forgive. THAT is not my point. My point is...to add members to said denomination, lets just look the other way on these issues. Ya know what? I got me a feelin' nothing is ever going to come of this, cause everyone is overlooking the simple facts.

[HisBelovedMelody]

hello...hello...hello....wow, got quiet here all the sudden

[HisBelovedMelody]

Hey Church,
I will try to give you the information I know about this situation. I know a little because my son, who was also married 3 times has also gone through the annulment process as did my girlfriend. She went through 5 marriage in all and after her second, marriage, the Priest would not consider her appeal again. She was not and at the age of 70, still incapable of making a firm committment.
This is really going to be hard to explain since so much has been said already and feelings are running high. I can see there has been some real hurt.
I am also not really good with words and pray, I do not make the situation worse.
In the Catholic Church, marriage is a Sacrament, one of the 7 Sacraments.
Each Sacrament requires certain things to be present, to make that Sacrament valid WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Only the Catholic Church can determine what makes a Catholic Sacrament valid. Do you agree with me so far? We must respect the authority the Lord put over us. Surely, not every Christian agrees with this and these rules are not put over every Christian, just Catholics. This is not to say that every Christian is not part of the Body of Christ but how can everyone be bound by Catholic rules?
So... Jesus said in scripture, "whosoever puts away his wife and marries another, except for immorality, commits adultery..."
For many years, annulment was not used in the Church. However, over recent years, there has been less and less commitment to the Sacrament of Marriage. If these marriages were indeed made in Heaven and were truly Sacramental, they should indeed, last.
The Catholic Church determined that all of the elements required to make a for life, Sacramental marriage must be missing. A very detailed investigation is made, letters are written to former inlaws, friends and of course the former spouse asking specific questions. For an annulment to be eventually granted, these folks have to be willing to answer the questions and cooperate with the Marriage Tribunal. If not the annulment is almost always denied.
There is much more that I am not aware of. I can tell you this, scripture is involved and much prayer as well as Spiritual discernment. I realize that from the outside looking in, it doesn't seem like it but since it was my son involved and I was one of the witnesses and had to testify by answering these questions ...and...I was Maid of Honor at my best friends wedding, and we lived next door to each other, and I was God Mother to her children, I know what happened with her.
The other thing I do need to mention here. This only affects the Catholic Sacramental part of the marriage. The Church recognizes that the marriage is legal in civil law and a civil divorce is necessary to end that so that any children involved are indeed ligitimate.

That is the best I can do. I know it is not a great explanation but it is the best I can do.

Peace of Jesus Be With You
I just don't understand, how the church can just do this. Who gave them the right? I dunno. There is so much I don't get...and it hurts knowing my mother is in this denomination, and she willingly knew and did what she did too. She is to blame too.

[L3g3nd]

yes. GOD can forgive. THAT is not my point. My point is...to add members to said denomination, lets just look the other way on these issues. Ya know what? I got me a feelin' nothing is ever going to come of this, cause everyone is overlooking the simple facts.


The church did not look the other way; it followed its protocol exactly. Your mother is not recieving special treatment.

[HisBelovedMelody]

The church did not look the other way; it followed its protocol exactly. Your mother is not recieving special treatment.
I should hope to God that that wasn't 'special' treatment. In GOD'S eyes, ALL the marriages were real and happened.I don't care what that denomination says....600$ please and thank you. Incredible.

[L3g3nd]

I should hope to God that that wasn't 'special' treatment. In GOD'S eyes, ALL the marriages were real and happened.I don't care what that denomination says....600$ please and thank you. Incredible.

Let me quote for you a paragraph on the nature of a degree of nullity:

"What a decree of Nullity Is. An annulment, properly called a Decree of Nullity, is a finding by a Church tribunal that ON THE DAY VOWS WERE EXCHANGED at least some essential element for a valid marriage was lacking, such as, one of the parties did not intend lifelong fidelity to the other person or excluded children entirely. Another example would be that one of the parties was incapable of marriage (due to some constitutional weakness, such as mental illness or some psychological condition that prevented making the marital commitment - gross immaturity, homosexuality, etc.).

None of these conditions are assumed they must be proven. A Decree of Nullity does NOT dissolve the marriage, it cannot. It is a reasoned judgement that one never existed, and as such is capable of human error. If the tribunal is fastidious to Church law and theology and the couple and their witnesses are honest, the decision can be followed in good-faith, including a new marriage. If someone is ABUSING the process through deceit, however, it would be a very grave sin for that person. A person who innocently enters a second marriage would not be guilty of sin, but the person who abused the process to fraudulently obtain a decree in order to remarry would commit adultery by remarrying." (http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/annulment.htm)


Such is the nature of the decree, and if your mother is abusing the system, her sins will be on her head.

As for the money, the church employs people to look into the case, and that costs money; why should anyone but your mother be responsible for the cost?

[HisBelovedMelody]

Let me quote for you a paragraph on the nature of a degree of nullity:

"What a decree of Nullity Is. An annulment, properly called a Decree of Nullity, is a finding by a Church tribunal that ON THE DAY VOWS WERE EXCHANGED at least some essential element for a valid marriage was lacking, such as, one of the parties did not intend lifelong fidelity to the other person or excluded children entirely. Another example would be that one of the parties was incapable of marriage (due to some constitutional weakness, such as mental illness or some psychological condition that prevented making the marital commitment - gross immaturity, homosexuality, etc.).

None of these conditions are assumed they must be proven. A Decree of Nullity does NOT dissolve the marriage, it cannot. It is a reasoned judgement that one never existed, and as such is capable of human error. If the tribunal is fastidious to Church law and theology and the couple and their witnesses are honest, the decision can be followed in good-faith, including a new marriage. If someone is ABUSING the process through deceit, however, it would be a very grave sin for that person. A person who innocently enters a second marriage would not be guilty of sin, but the person who abused the process to fraudulently obtain a decree in order to remarry would commit adultery by remarrying." (http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/annulment.htm)


Such is the nature of the decree, and if your mother is abusing the system, her sins will be on her head.

As for the money, the church employs people to look into the case, and that costs money; why should anyone but your mother be responsible for the cost?
WHY annul a marriage just cause some pope said 'in this denomination we don't recognize it'!!!! I am sorry, but it is WRONG..and I don't CARE what the denomination says.

[L3g3nd]

Marriage must be official, don't you agree? Two people can't just look at each other and declare themselves officially married. Therefore, the church, being in the business of marrying people, has guidelines for what constitutes an actual marriage. If you disagree, that's fine, but the church is not being hypocritical, as you said.

[HisBelovedMelody]

Marriage must be official, don't you agree? Two people can't just look at each other and declare themselves officially married. Therefore, the church, being in the business of marrying people, has guidelines for what constitutes an actual marriage. If you disagree, that's fine, but the church is not being hypocritical, as you said.
BUDDY! Just cause the first three weren't IN THE CATHOLIC denomination doesn't make them unofficial. GIVE me a break. That is just nonsense.

[pehkay]

>> the church, being in the business of marrying people

That is a very ...er ... cmon :) seriously

[HisBelovedMelody]

>> the church, being in the business of marrying people

That is a very ...er ... cmon :) seriously
well, I don't know about the first, I wasn't there! LOL..OH for the record for the catholics..she had sex and was pregnant before she got married...the second, not sure either..the third was outside by a baptist minister...so gee..maybe they didn't count! MY point being the catholic church took money for the annulment of first said marriage that produced TWO kids, seems to by hypocritical to me. They were consumated...obviously...but that denomination comes along and assumes it is better and the ONLY "church" to...get saved,...married in etc??? YEAH, ok...whatever.

[L3g3nd]

There's nothing hypocritical about the Catholic church following Catholic protocol. For there to be hypocrisy, the church must have done something that it is in principal against. This was not the case.

That is a very ...er ... cmon :) seriously

You don't have to believe it, but that is church policy. I'm not even arguing here whether or not the policy is a valid one; all I'm saying is that the church did not act hypocritically in its decision regarding Judahspraise's mother.

[HisBelovedMelody]

There's nothing hypocritical about the Catholic church following Catholic protocol. For there to be hypocrisy, the church must have done something that it is in principal against. This was not the case.



You don't have to believe it, but that is church policy. I'm not even arguing here whether or not the policy is a valid one; all I'm saying is that the church did not act hypocritically in its decision regarding Judahspraise's mother.
you call it what you want. I call it a grave sin on the churches part. HOW dare that denomination call any marriage outside their institution invalid? There are ALOT of invalid marriages then if that is the case. I was married in a non denom. church....am I NOT married cause it wasn't in the catholic denomination?? DON'T hardly think so.

[L3g3nd]

you call it what you want. I call it a grave sin on the churches part. HOW dare that denomination call any marriage outside their institution invalid? There are ALOT of invalid marriages then if that is the case. I was married in a non denom. church....am I NOT married cause it wasn't in the catholic denomination?? DON'T hardly think so.

Why are you so hostile? You accused the church of hypocrisy, I explained that it is not. I explained to you precisely how the church "dares" to annul marriages (the church does not, by the way, declare all other marriages null and void; this is a step taken when a person like your mother comes to the church specifically for that purpose). There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to jump at anyone who tries to answer the questions you have posed.

[INRI2]

BUDDY! Just cause the first three weren't IN THE CATHOLIC denomination doesn't make them unofficial. GIVE me a break. That is just nonsense.


UNOFFICAL?.... they were most certainly official

In the eyes of the church, NOT THE STATE The first 3 were offical.... just not sacramental


Even protestant churches do not recognise marriage in their establishments as sacramental.


HOW dare that denomination call any marriage outside their institution invalid?


Not invalid, just not sacramental.


. I was married in a non denom. church....am I NOT married cause it wasn't in the catholic denomination?? DON'T hardly think so.


of course your "married" just not sacramentally....even the minsters who "married" you will agree.

[HisBelovedMelody]

UNOFFICAL?.... they were most certainly official

In the eyes of the church, NOT THE STATE The first 3 were offical.... just not sacramental


Even protestant churches do not recognise marriage in their establishments as sacramental.



Not invalid, just not sacramental.



of course your "married" just not sacramentally....even the minsters who "married" you will agree.
that was alot of fluff and nonsense. what makes a marriage "sacramental"...the Catholic denomination??? GIVE me a break. IF by sacrament you mean communion...yep, had that at my marriage too. HATE to disappoint you..but MY marriage is very sacramental to me.

[INRI2]

that was alot of fluff and nonsense. what makes a marriage "sacramental"...the Catholic denomination??? GIVE me a break. IF by sacrament you mean communion...yep, had that at my marriage too. HATE to disappoint you..but MY marriage is very sacramental to me.


makes a marriage "sacramental"...the Catholic denomination???

No not the catholic church.... God.


by sacrament you mean communion...yep, had that at my marriage too


Holy Communion is a sacrament but I do not mean sacrament is a communion or Holy communion in any way makes marriage a sacrament.

A sacrament is a Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) rite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite) that mediates divine grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace)—a holy Mystery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery). The root meaning of the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) word sacramentum is "making sacred".

One example of its use was as the term for the oath of dedication taken by Roman soldiers; but the ecclesiastical use of the word is derived from the root meaning of the word and not from that particular example.

Among many Protestants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism), the word mediates or conveys would mean only that it is a visible symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol) or reminder of invisible grace.

The Roman Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church), Eastern Orthodox Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church), the Oriental Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox), Assyrian Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Christians), members of the Anglican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican), United Methodist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist), and Old Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic) traditions, the Independent Catholic Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Catholic_Churches) and Lutherans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherans) hold that sacraments are not mere symbols, but rather, "signs or symbols which effect what they signify", that is, the sacraments in and of themselves, rightly administered, are used by God as a means to communicate grace to faithful recipients.

I hate to dissapoint but in most protestant churches their are only 2 sacraments.

1. Baptism
2. Holy communion

3. Reconcilliation (lutherian)

In the RCC, EO ect their are 7.

1. Baptism
2. Reconciliation
3. Holy Communion (eucharist)
4. Confirmation
5. Marriage
6. Holy Orders
7. Annointing of the sick and dying

[HisBelovedMelody]

No not the catholic church.... God.



Holy Communion is a sacrament but I do not mean sacrament is a communion or Holy communion in any way makes marriage a sacrament.

A sacrament is a Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) rite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite) that mediates divine grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace)—a holy Mystery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery). The root meaning of the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) word sacramentum is "making sacred".

One example of its use was as the term for the oath of dedication taken by Roman soldiers; but the ecclesiastical use of the word is derived from the root meaning of the word and not from that particular example.

Among many Protestants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism), the word mediates or conveys would mean only that it is a visible symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol) or reminder of invisible grace.

The Roman Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church), Eastern Orthodox Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church), the Oriental Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodox), Assyrian Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Christians), members of the Anglican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican), United Methodist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist), and Old Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic) traditions, the Independent Catholic Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Catholic_Churches) and Lutherans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherans) hold that sacraments are not mere symbols, but rather, "signs or symbols which effect what they signify", that is, the sacraments in and of themselves, rightly administered, are used by God as a means to communicate grace to faithful recipients.

I hate to dissapoint but in most protestant churches their are only 2 sacraments.

1. Baptism
2. Holy communion

3. Reconcilliation (lutherian)

In the RCC, EO ect their are 7.

1. Baptism
2. Reconciliation
3. Holy Communion (eucharist)
4. Confirmation
5. Marriage
6. Holy Orders
7. Annointing of the sick and dying
oh man....this is loaded. I won't try to be hostile. SO...outside the catholic denomination, marriages aren't scaramental?? Why??? I KNOW God blessed my marriage...

Yes, I see the catholic denomination does put heavy burdens on its people. But that is another discussion. Thanks for the denominations theology lesson..still doesn't make it right. I am sorry. BUT God DOES have christians out side this denomination, and does 'bless' and sacrement alot of others besides the catholic denomination! have a good day!

[INRI2]

oh man....this is loaded. I won't try to be hostile. SO...outside the catholic denomination, marriages aren't scaramental?? Why??? I KNOW God blessed my marriage...



well instead of arguing with me, why not go and see theminister who married you and ask him/her if your marriage is a sacrament!


I see the catholic denomination does put heavy burdens on its people.


The Catholic church...you mean Christ.

"pick up his cross and follow me"

being a Christian isnt easy!

am sorry. BUT God DOES have christians out side this denomination, and does 'bless' and sacrement alot of others besides the catholic denomination! have a good day!

again i say go and see your pastor...your marriage IS NOT sacramental...if you want it to be I reccomend seeing a priest in an RCC/EO/OO etc church

[HisBelovedMelody]

well instead of arguing with me, why not go and see theminister who married you and ask him/her if your marriage is a sacrament!



The Catholic church...you mean Christ.

"pick up his cross and follow me"

being a Christian isnt easy!



again i say go and see your pastor...your marriage IS NOT sacramental...if you want it to be I reccomend seeing a priest in an RCC/EO/OO etc church
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL LOL LOL.....ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHWAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
You are kidding right??? NO??? OH, sorry. um...NOT on your life would I walk into THE DENOMINATION! YES, denomination. The catholic denomination IS NOT Christ. It is a denomination. Christ is fine. Trust me, I have a great relationship with Him. YES I believe MY marriage IS sacramental..sorry to burst your little bubble. WHAT would a priest do? Make me annul my marriage?? HA! THAT is laughable....sorry, no can do.

[INRI2]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL LOL LOL.....ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHWAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
You are kidding right??? NO??? OH, sorry. um...NOT on your life would I walk into THE DENOMINATION! YES, denomination. The catholic denomination IS NOT Christ. It is a denomination. Christ is fine. Trust me, I have a great relationship with Him. YES I believe MY marriage IS sacramental..sorry to burst your little bubble. WHAT would a priest do? Make me annul my marriage?? HA! THAT is laughable....sorry, no can do.

I think saying I can see your slightly bitter would be an under statement, I hope Christ can ease your pain.

If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?

[HisBelovedMelody]

I think saying I can see your slightly bitter would be an under statement, I hope Christ can ease your pain.

If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?
yes, I am very bitter against this denomination. And folks like yourself aren't helping. BUT that being said, I have been praying that the Lord does help me in my bitterness. I don't follow a 'church'....I follow Jesus. What HE has joined...LET NO man put asunder. HE sees my marriage as sacred....that is all that matters.

[INRI2]

If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?

[HisBelovedMelody]

If you believe marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that does not believe marrige is a sacrament?
did you read what I wrote above???? There is NO mystery...know what? why don't we quit before this gets worse. YOU aren't helping you denominations cause any. I DON'T follow anyone/thing...ONLY Jesus.

[INRI2]

did you read what I wrote above???? There is NO mystery...know what? why don't we quit before this gets worse. YOU aren't helping you denominations cause any. I DON'T follow anyone/thing...ONLY Jesus.


Thats ok with me..but can I point out a few things we have established.

1. The Catholic church does not recognise your mothers 3 marriages or your marriage as sacramental

2. Your church does not recognise your marriage as sacramental

3. you believe your marriage is sacramental

You are left only with two options.

1. you can either believe your marriage and your mothers marriage was sacramental and call the catholic church hypocritical for carrying out its annulment

2. You can recognise that your marriage and your mothers marriages were not sacramental and accept that the church was legitimate in its actions to annul your mothers marriage.

picking one of these two options provide you with heart renching realisations.

1. Either the Church is not hypocritical in its annulment
and that your Marriage and your mothers marriages is/were not sacramental

2. Or your Marriage, which you regard as sacramental is not regarded as sacramental by your own church.


Are you sacramentally married or not?

BTW I do believe it is possible for God to make a marriage outside of the Catholic faith a sacrament...but do you believe marriage is a sacrament?

further reading on Sacrament:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

God Bless, seems you have a lot of thinking to do.

[HisBelovedMelody]

Thats ok with me..but can I point out a few things we have established.

1. The Catholic church does not recognise your mothers 3 marriages or your marriage as sacramental

2. Your church does not recognise your marriage as sacramental

3. you believe your marriage is sacramental

You are left only with two options.

1. you can either believe your marriage and your mothers marriage was sacramental and call the catholic church hypocritical for carrying out its annulment

2. You can recognise that your marriage and your mothers marriages were not sacramental and accept that the church was legitimate in its actions to annul your mothers marriage.

picking one of these two options provide you with heart renching realisations.

1. Either the Church is not hypocritical in its annulment
and that your Marriage and your mothers marriages is/were not sacramental

2. Or your Marriage, which you regard as sacramental is not regarded as sacramental by your own church.


Are you sacramentally married or not?

BTW I do believe it is possible for God to make a marriage outside of the Catholic faith a sacrament...but do you believe marriage is a sacrament?

further reading on Sacrament:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

God Bless, seems you have a lot of thinking to do.



nope no thinking at all about this. Cause I do not recognize the false teaching of the church...sorry...and :kiss: see ya!!:wave:

[L3g3nd]

Why did you ask for an explanation in your OP if you were going to simply deny and insult those who are trying to give you answers?

[HisBelovedMelody]

um...hate to tell ya...saying a marriage outside a catholic denomination isn't sacred? sorry..have no time...

MODS...please close this thread. I have had enough of the nonsense...thanks,

[thereselittleflower]

This was brought up in another thread, but didn't want to side track that one. SO, going to try and hopefully keep this civil, whilst learning.

My mom turned to the Catholic faith some years ago. 5-6 maybe. Anyway in order to do this, the church 'overlooked' some of the issues that is claims to hold in high standard. For instance...

She was married 3 times, the 4th is when she was Catholic and wanted it in the church. SO, to do this, she had the first 2 annuled at 600$ each..please and thank you to a fast working priest. NOW, the problem I have, and believe is hypocrisy is...NOW that her marriage to my father is annuled...that leave my sister and I as??? what?? The 'church' over looked the fact of kids in a marriage (and kids are supposedly sacred to the church)...to get a convert. PLUS, she had her tubes tied..another 'sin' in the church. :o These things are vry bothersome to me.

JP, your perception of what happened and why is very 'off' . ..it attributes immoral motives to the priest and Church for annuling the previous marraiges . .

I am sorry for the pain this has obviously caused you. . . . but coming at it with this pre-judgement is not the best way to deal with it.


Peace

[thereselittleflower]

um...hate to tell ya...saying a marriage outside a catholic denomination isn't sacred? sorry..have no time...

MODS...please close this thread. I have had enough of the nonsense...thanks,

So you didn't really want to know?

Christian Marriage before God requires that GOD be the one who joined the couple . . not merely man.

Jesus said what GOD has joined together, let no man put assunder ..

He didn't say anything about what MAN may join together . .

There are specific requirements for a marriage to be SACRAMENTAL . . ie joined BY GOD . . . .

There are issues which make a marriage, while still a marriage, NON-sacramental . . ie joined by MAN instead of by God.

Even Paul recognized that previous marriages, before conversion, could be annuled, and the individuals free to marry again . . .

So the Catholic Church is not doing anything other than what was already recognized as valid in the scriptures.

But if GOD joined the two together, then no man can put them assunder, and the Church cannot give an annulment. . .

The Church can only give an annulement if man joined them together.

Do you begrudge your mother the chance to find happiness in a sarcramental marriage?


To get an annulment costs money because it requires research and work, sometimes hundreds of hours . . the Church is willing to do the research and work. But it does cost money to do so . . . .



Peace

[thereselittleflower]

yes, I am very bitter against this denomination. And folks like yourself aren't helping. BUT that being said, I have been praying that the Lord does help me in my bitterness. I don't follow a 'church'....I follow Jesus. What HE has joined...LET NO man put asunder. HE sees my marriage as sacred....that is all that matters.

I pray that God helps you let go of your bitterness . . . for biterness is nothing more than a tool to be used by the enemy in the life of the believer . . .


Peace

[thereselittleflower]

oh man....this is loaded. I won't try to be hostile. SO...outside the catholic denomination, marriages aren't scaramental?? Why??? I KNOW God blessed my marriage...

Yes, they can be sacramental outside the Catholic Church . ..

It is a sacrament believers confer on each other . .



Yes, I see the catholic denomination does put heavy burdens on its people.

I am sorry you see it that way . . you are looking at the stained glass window from the outside in broad daylight . . it looks quite ugly when looked at from that perspective . .

The only way to properly view the stained glass window is to come inside and view it with the sunlight streaming in through it, then the image in the window comes alive with meaning and understanding and beauty. . .


But that is another discussion. Thanks for the denominations theology lesson..still doesn't make it right. I am sorry. BUT God DOES have christians out side this denomination, and does 'bless' and sacrement alot of others besides the catholic denomination! have a good day!

Yes, God does have Christians outside formal communion with the Catholic Church. :)

That is the teaching of the Catholic Church by the way . . . :)



Peace

[thereselittleflower]

that was alot of fluff and nonsense. what makes a marriage "sacramental"...the Catholic denomination??? GIVE me a break. IF by sacrament you mean communion...yep, had that at my marriage too. HATE to disappoint you..but MY marriage is very sacramental to me.


A sacrament is a vehicle of God's grace and power in a person's life . .

when we say marriage is sacramental, this means it conveys grace and power of God into the lives of those who participate in it.


A sacrament is participated in by believers .. .

The Sacrament of marriage is particapated in by two believers together . . .


As I said above, they confer this sacrament on each other . . .


But, just because two believers get married, that does not automatically mean it is sacramental . . .

for instance, if a young girl gets married, not fully undertanding what she is doing, or is coerced into doing so because she is pregnant, then there is doubt as to its sacramental nature . . for she is not entering into the marriage with full understanding or of her own free will . . .

If two believers get married, but one intends to only stick it out as long as it works out . . then that is not a sacramental marriage, for, to be sacramental, one has to intend for the marriage to be what God intends . . unto death do you part . . .


Knowledge, understanding, freedom of will and intent are all issues that come into play when determining if a marriage is truly a sacramental one or not . . .


Surely you don't think that if a mentally handicapped girl is forced into marriage, even if both she and her new husband are believers, that this would be a union joined by God?



Peace

[thereselittleflower]

my point is, it is hypocritical. JUST to get members into the denomination? *sigh....whatever.

This may be what you believe happened . . . but I have seen no proof that this was indeed what happened . . .



Peace

[HisBelovedMelody]

So you didn't really want to know?

Christian Marriage before God requires that GOD be the one who joined the couple . . not merely man.

Jesus said what GOD has joined together, let no man put assunder ..

He didn't say anything about what MAN may join together . .

There are specific requirements for a marriage to be SACRAMENTAL . . ie joined BY GOD . . . .

There are issues which make a marriage, while still a marriage, NON-sacramental . . ie joined by MAN instead of by God.

Even Paul recognized that previous marriages, before conversion, could be annuled, and the individuals free to marry again . . .

So the Catholic Church is not doing anything other than what was already recognized as valid in the scriptures.

But if GOD joined the two together, then no man can put them assunder, and the Church cannot give an annulment. . .

The Church can only give an annulement if man joined them together.

Do you begrudge your mother the chance to find happiness in a sarcramental marriage?


To get an annulment costs money because it requires research and work, sometimes hundreds of hours . . the Church is willing to do the research and work. But it does cost money to do so . . . .



Peace
WHERE do you get the idea GOD Didn't join us! That is a huge MISCONCEPTION on your part. YOUR denomination is NOT the only 'right' one out there. GOD is everywhere! NOT just in your denomination...that is SO PRIDEFUL!

[INRI2]

um...hate to tell ya...saying a marriage outside a catholic denomination isn't sacred? sorry..have no time...


Well the protestant faith does not recognise the sacramentality of marriage, Your belief that Marriage is sacramental is a fully Catholic beleif.

If a sacrament is a ritual that brings about and manifests God's Grace through his ministers both protestand and Catholic in things like Holy communion and Baptism, then If the protestant minister himself does not recognise the manifestation of Gods Grace in marriage can it be sacramental.

If God uses ministers and the church to distribute his sacraments and the ministers and the Church refuse to administer a sacramental marriage..can your marriage be sacramental?

If you believe christian marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that teaches otherwise?

If you agree with your faith that marriage is not a sacrament, how can you condemn the Chruch for annuling a marriage that is not sacramental?

[HisBelovedMelody]

and thereselittleflower, YOUR denomination is so full of pride and arrogance to say that only your way is the 'right' way?? NO. Don't think so. All I have seen from ANY catholic on this forum do is dance around and say..well...the church says..I DON"T care what some pope said or anything else. I have raised, as have many others many issues...and ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL you can do is quote 'tradition' and such. THAT is a cop out. YOU (meaning catholics) have been challanged to look outside the box...adn NO..you can't! FINE! but don't expect people to just lay down and accept that YOUR denomination is right. IT ISN'T! NO denomination is.

[HisBelovedMelody]

Well the protestant faith does not recognise the sacramentality of marriage, Your belief that Marriage is sacramental is a fully Catholic beleif.

If a sacrament is a ritual that brings about and manifests God's Grace through his ministers both protestand and Catholic in things like Holy communion and Baptism, then If the protestant minister himself does not recognise the manifestation of Gods Grace in marriage can it be sacramental.

If God uses ministers and the church to distribute his sacraments and the ministers and the Church refuse to administer a sacramental marriage..can your marriage be sacramental?

If you believe christian marriage is sacramental why do you follow a Christian faith that teaches otherwise?

If you agree with your faith that marriage is not a sacrament, how can you condemn the Chruch for annuling a marriage that is not sacramental?
THAT is pure NONSENSE made up BY A MAN!! NOT GOD! GOD is NOT YOUR denomination. SORRY, hate to disappoint you. He may be IN your denomination...BUT NOT JUST yours.

[INRI2]

WHERE do you get the idea GOD Didn't join us! That is a huge MISCONCEPTION on your part. YOUR denomination is NOT the only 'right' one out there. GOD is everywhere! NOT just in your denomination...that is SO PRIDEFUL!

where do you get the Idea God DID join you?

your faith tells you, your marriage is not sacramental, what makes you believe it is?

Wether the catholic faith is the right one or not is besides the point the catholic faith (not just RCC) is the only faith that teaches sacramental marriage.

God is everywhere but he chooses to manifest his grace through the sacraments, he can opperate if he so chooses outside the sacraments...but that is Gods choice not yours or ours. To say God joined you together without the sacraments is wishful/hopeful thinking, it is possible but you can not be 100% sure.

To submit to Gods choice to manifest his grace through the sacraments is not prideful but an act of humility, you submit to the will of God.

Just as a man can not enter the kingdom of heaven until he submits to the will of God, neither will god sacrament a marriage until we submit to his will. It is through the sacraments that God has chosen to manifest his Grace...submiting to his will is not prideful.

[HisBelovedMelody]

where do you get the Idea God DID join you?

your faith tells you, your marriage is not sacramental, what makes you believe it is?

Wether the catholic faith is the right one or not is besides the point the catholic faith (not just RCC) is the only faith that teaches sacramental marriage.

God is everywhere but he chooses to manifest his grace through the sacraments, he can opperate if he so chooses outside the sacraments...but that is Gods choice not yours or ours. To say God joined you together without the sacraments is wishful/hopeful thinking, it is possible but you can not be 100% sure.

To submit to Gods choice to manifest his grace through the sacraments is not prideful but an act of humility, you submit to the will of God.

Just as a man can not enter the kingdom of heaven until he submits to the will of God, neither will god sacrament a marriage until we submit to his will. It is through the sacraments that God has chosen to manifest his Grace...submiting to his will is not prideful.
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


MODS..please...CLOSE this before I say something I may regret.

[INRI2]

THAT is pure NONSENSE made up BY A MAN!! NOT GOD! GOD is NOT YOUR denomination. SORRY, hate to disappoint you. He may be IN your denomination...BUT NOT JUST yours


1st off The Catholic faith is not a denomination, it is perdenominational, it existed long before denominational Christianity. Denominational Christianity is a Protestant effect of sola scriptura. The catholic faith was instituted in 33AD in the Upper Room... it is the Faith started by the apostles of Jesus Christ through whom they recieved every grace and blessing...he is beyond being just part of the Catholic faith or being in it, our whole faith gets its being from Christ, we are one with him. Just as the son is in the father so are we in the son, Just as when you see the son you see the father, when you see the Church you see Christ, Just as the father and the son are one and the same, the son and the church are one and the same...if you can not be reconciled to these truths, you can not be reconcied to the church, who is in the son who is in the father, thus you can not be reconciled to the father or the son.

Second it is not made up by a man but a divinely ordained sacrament, It was instututed by Jesus Christ

"What God has joined together, let no man put assunder"

The protestant faith does not recognise the sacramentality of Marriage....therefore can a marriage therein be sacramental?


GOD is NOT YOUR denomination


Yes he is, we are the body of Christ, the earthly manifestation of him, through whom the church has its being.

"whoever listens to YOU listens to ME"

"whoever rejects YOU rejects ME also"

[HisBelovedMelody]

YES your church IS a denomination CAUSE CHRIST DID NOT MAKE DENOMINATIONS! I will NOT argue that point. YOU call it what you want. It IS a denomination...just like the rest of us poor saps that have to put a denominatinol icon on the page!

MODS! Please..I AM BEGGING You close this thread.

[INRI2]

YES your church IS a denomination CAUSE CHRIST DID NOT MAKE DENOMINATIONS! I will NOT argue that point. YOU call it what you want. It IS a denomination...just like the rest of us poor saps that have to put a denominatinol icon on the page!



Your right Christ did not make denominations, sola scriptura created denominations, Jesus Instituted the Catholic faith, the reformers instituted the protestant faith and denominations thereof, the RCC is not a denomination of the protestant faith but a faithful witness to the Catholic faith instituted By Christ. It is not protestant and can not be called a denomination.

So NO it is not a protestant denomination, the catholic icon is not a denominational Icon but a Faith Icon. There are many Catholics who are not Roman Catholics, there are Bizatine Catholics etc and we all have the same Faith Icon.

[HisBelovedMelody]

BACK OFF..now you are just stating things to make me mad and flame.I WILL NOT do this. I DO NOT nor will I ever accept your DENOMINATION!

[INRI2]

BACK OFF..now you are just stating things to make me mad and flame.I WILL NOT do this. I DO NOT nor will I ever accept your DENOMINATION!


I am not trying to make you mad or flame you. I am not asking you to accept the catholic faith or the Roman Catholic Rite therein.

But you have to realise we are not a denomination, we are the latin rite of the Catholic Faith.

There are three faiths

1. Catholic
2. Protestant
3. Orthodox

The Protestant faith is disunited, it believes many different things, the Churches thereof are Denominations of Protestant faith.

The Orthodox Church is very Catholic but is not in unity with the Catholic Faith, I Am not sure if you can call the churches theirin denominations of Orthodoxy because I am not sure of the differences within.

The catholic faith is made up of different rites, not denominations because we all share the exact same beliefs, The Roman Catholic Rite (properly known as the Latin Rite) is the largest of the Catholic Rites, therefore all other rites are usually lumped in with the latin Rite.

[HisBelovedMelody]

I am not trying to make you mad or flame you. I am not asking you to accept the catholic faith or the Roman Catholic Rite therein.

But you have to realise we are not a denomination, we are the latin rite of the Catholic Faith.

There are three faiths

1. Catholic
2. Protestant
3. Orthodox

The Protestant faith is disunited, it believes many different things, the Churches thereof are Denominations of Protestant faith.

The Orthodox Church is very Catholic but is not in unity with the Catholic Faith, I Am not sure if you can call the churches theirin denominations of Orthodoxy because I am not sure of the differences within.

The catholic faith is made up of different rites, not denominations because we all share the exact same beliefs, The Roman Catholic Rite (properly known as the Latin Rite) is the largest of the Catholic Rites, therefore all other rites are usually lumped in with the latin Rite.
YOU are STILL a denomination....and YOU are poorly representing it telling me that I am not christian, nor my marriage blessed and 'real'..etc...NOT good. I KNOW God was AT MY WEDDING! There fore HE blessed it...thank you very much.

[thereselittleflower]

WHERE do you get the idea GOD Didn't join us! That is a huge MISCONCEPTION on your part. YOUR denomination is NOT the only 'right' one out there. GOD is everywhere! NOT just in your denomination...that is SO PRIDEFUL!

That isn't what I said at all . . . and if you had read all I posted first, you would have seen that what I did post contradicted what you just said . . . . '




Peace

[Miracle Storm]

This thread is being closed at the request of the OP.

~God bless.