Another question for converts from Roman Catholicism

[TheListener]

Why did you leave the RCC?

What has changed in your life?

Thanks for the replies :hug:

[JasonV]

May I reply? Technically I left the Greek Church, not the Latin Church, but I suppose I can still answer.

I left because to me, God can work more easily in the Anglican church. I've spent years studying the theology behind the Latin and Greek churches, and frankly Im not terribly impressed. The Early Church was nothing like those organizations have become. The early church was very forgiving on doctrinal issues, and basically allowed everyone some leeway. This is what the Anglican communcion is today. We can have differing views on God and his church, and still worship together on sunday without calling each other heretics and apostates.

That makes me smile. I imagine it's more in line with what Jesus had in mind too.

[She]

I left because to me, God can work more easily in the Anglican church. I've spent years studying the theology behind the Latin and Greek churches, and frankly Im not terribly impressed. The Early Church was nothing like those organizations have become. The early church was very forgiving on doctrinal issues, and basically allowed everyone some leeway. This is what the Anglican communcion is today. We can have differing views on God and his church, and still worship together on sunday without calling each other heretics and apostates.

That makes me smile. I imagine it's more in line with what Jesus had in mind too.

Very well said. :thumbsup:
That is what I love about the Anglican Church too. Although, after posting in the 'stem cell' thread, I am expecting a backlash. Someone is bound to call me a heretic or something, surely. :sorry:

Anyway, my reasons for leaving the RC Church were mainly over their strict rules regarding contraception. What changed in my life? I saw the Light! Alleluia!
:bow:

In the RC Church there are so many rules and regulations and I felt chained to the RC Church by their claim to be the only true Church of Christ. Also, their claim that the Pope is infallible and that, no other Church has the approval of Jesus. These were the chains which kept me tied to the RC Church for so many years. Now I am almost free.

[~Karin~]

I'm contemplating leaving the RC simply because I can't agree with a lot of the teachings and am tired of being called a heretic simply because I disagree. I am a convert so I suppose you can take the girl out of Protestanism, but you can't take the Protestant out of the girl. )

[TheListener]

I'm contemplating leaving the RC simply because I can't agree with a lot of the teachings and am tired of being called a heretic simply because I disagree. I am a convert so I suppose you can take the girl out of Protestanism, but you can't take the Protestant out of the girl. )
Which particular teachings are bothering you, may I ask?

[~Karin~]

the biggie would be that the Church has the fullness of truth and all others fall short. My heart just can't accept that. I read a scripture in Jeremiah once that said that God would write his laws on our hearts and no longer would one teach another. I tend to follow my heart and my heart says I'm no longer RC.

[TheListener]

the biggie would be that the Church has the fullness of truth and all others fall short. My heart just can't accept that. I read a scripture in Jeremiah once that said that God would write his laws on our hearts and no longer would one teach another. I tend to follow my heart and my heart says I'm no longer RC.
Fair enough.

Happy birthday by the way :)

[~Karin~]

Thank you! PM me anytime if you have anymore questions...I don't know if I'd help, but I will always listen. :)

[longhair75]

friend listener,

this question has come up before. this (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=24133991#post24133991) was my answer then. i was told specifically that i was no longer welcome.

[Aymn27]

Why did you leave the RCC?

What has changed in your life?

Thanks for the replies :hug:
The infallibility and over-reaching power of the Papacy.
A "works system" of salvation (even if they say it isn't - it is)
WAY TOO MUCH Marian hubub...
Works of Supereriogation (you know "above and beyond" applying graces to folks in purgatory, etc)
Purgatory as a place with time periods of stay and "releases" according to numbers of prayers
Insistance that transubstantiation is the ONLY term that fits.
Runaway clericalism.
"Offering" the "sacrifice" of the mass - speaks for itself - Jesus dies everyday?
Horrible music.
Horrible fellowship.
Horrible evanglization.
Horrible preaching and teaching.
Unholy ministers....
I think I'll stop there

[TheListener]

A lot of these reasons can be applied to any denomination. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Aymn27]

A lot of these reasons can be applied to any denomination. Just thought I'd point that out.
Yea..I know that...but it tends to be the norm in RC parishes (though there are exceptions ;) )

[TheListener]

Yea..I know that...but it tends to be the norm in RC parishes (though there are exceptions ;) )
In how many RC parishes have you seen this?

[No Swansong]

May I reply? Technically I left the Greek Church, not the Latin Church, but I suppose I can still answer.

I left because to me, God can work more easily in the Anglican church. I've spent years studying the theology behind the Latin and Greek churches, and frankly Im not terribly impressed. The Early Church was nothing like those organizations have become. The early church was very forgiving on doctrinal issues, and basically allowed everyone some leeway. This is what the Anglican communcion is today. We can have differing views on God and his church, and still worship together on sunday without calling each other heretics and apostates.

That makes me smile. I imagine it's more in line with what Jesus had in mind too.



JasonV what is really ioronic is that Cola, who is very different from you, would probably agree completely with your statement.

As for me I left the RCC over Papal Infallibility and Transubstantiation. (or more precisely the absolute requirement to believe both) For those who may not know however I do firmly believe in the Real Presence.

[No Swansong]

May I reply? Technically I left the Greek Church, not the Latin Church, but I suppose I can still answer.

I left because to me, God can work more easily in the Anglican church. I've spent years studying the theology behind the Latin and Greek churches, and frankly Im not terribly impressed. The Early Church was nothing like those organizations have become. The early church was very forgiving on doctrinal issues, and basically allowed everyone some leeway. This is what the Anglican communcion is today. We can have differing views on God and his church, and still worship together on sunday without calling each other heretics and apostates.

That makes me smile. I imagine it's more in line with what Jesus had in mind too.

The infallibility and over-reaching power of the Papacy.
A "works system" of salvation (even if they say it isn't - it is)
WAY TOO MUCH Marian hubub...
Works of Supereriogation (you know "above and beyond" applying graces to folks in purgatory, etc)
Purgatory as a place with time periods of stay and "releases" according to numbers of prayers
Insistance that transubstantiation is the ONLY term that fits.
Runaway clericalism.
"Offering" the "sacrifice" of the mass - speaks for itself - Jesus dies everyday?
Horrible music.
Horrible fellowship.
Horrible evanglization.
Horrible preaching and teaching.
Unholy ministers....
I think I'll stop there


So Aaron I take it you won't be jumping the Tiber any time soon?

[IowaLutheran]

A lot of these reasons can be applied to any denomination. Just thought I'd point that out.

But therein lies the difference between Roman Catholicism and the rest of us. We acknowledge that we are sinners full of errors such as those listed, and therefore make no claims that our ecclesial bureaucracy is the "one true church". Roman Catholics acknowledge they are sinners full of errors such as those listed, but proceed to claim that their bureaucracy is the "one true church" anyway.

[ContraMundum]

A converse question begs to be asked- and could yield some interesting responses.

Why do some Anglicans like Romanizing the Anglican Communion?

[Aymn27]

In how many RC parishes have you seen this?
Brother Listener...I grew up Roman Catholic, was an altar boy, considered the priesthood, dropped out of church during college, went back into church when i got out of college, was a RC youth minister for about 5 yrs, have a master's degree from a RC university in Pastoral Studies, was offered by more than one priest to be sponsored into the diaconate program. I have been to, well, probably thousands of masses in hundreds of churches and seminars/conferences. So I'm not talking out of my neck here....

[Aymn27]

A converse question begs to be asked- and could yield some interesting responses.

Why do some Anglicans like Romanizing the Anglican Communion?
Well brother Contra - exactly which aspects of Romanizing are you refering to? I mean theologically and in praxis what delineates the line from anglo-catholic to "romanizing"? Just wondering...

your bro in Christ - who is becoming more and more evangelical :preach:

[Aymn27]

So Aaron I take it you won't be jumping the Tiber any time soon?
jtbdad...no...the longer I stay away, the more error I see in her.

[ContraMundum]

Well brother Contra - exactly which aspects of Romanizing are you refering to? I mean theologically and in praxis what delineates the line from anglo-catholic to "romanizing"? Just wondering...

your bro in Christ - who is becoming more and more evangelical :preach:
I wish I knew these days, so much blurring of distinctions and drooling over Roman dogma. All I know for sure is that I want nothing to do with it. :)

[Aymn27]

I wish I knew these days, so much blurring of distinctions and drooling over Roman dogma. All I know for sure is that I want nothing to do with it. :)
I've always pegged you as a high church evangelical...;)

[karen freeinchristman]

what is really ioronic is that Cola, who is very different from you, would probably agree completely with your statement.

Where has Cola been? Tell him we miss him!!! :)

[No Swansong]

Where has Cola been? Tell him we miss him!!! :)


Cola's been wrapped up in school and other things. He didn't expect College to be as challenging as it has been. (he took Ethics his first quarter) I have also been giving him a hard time about his time on the internet. More specifically he has been helping around the house a lot more. (he is a great kid) I am sure once he adjusts he will be around more.

[TheListener]

But therein lies the difference between Roman Catholicism and the rest of us. We acknowledge that we are sinners full of errors such as those listed, and therefore make no claims that our ecclesial bureaucracy is the "one true church". Roman Catholics acknowledge they are sinners full of errors such as those listed, but proceed to claim that their bureaucracy is the "one true church" anyway.

I think there is good scriptural and historical evidence of this. Although I don't believe all protestants are going straight to hell. I just think protestant denominations have lousy doctrine.

Brother Listener...I grew up Roman Catholic, was an altar boy, considered the priesthood, dropped out of church during college, went back into church when i got out of college, was a RC youth minister for about 5 yrs, have a master's degree from a RC university in Pastoral Studies, was offered by more than one priest to be sponsored into the diaconate program. I have been to, well, probably thousands of masses in hundreds of churches and seminars/conferences. So I'm not talking out of my neck here....

That's impressive. So, why did you really leave?


PS: Just to clarify, I'm a Christian who was baptised and confirmed in the Anglican Church and attended an Anglican Church all my Christian life (3 years). I'm now seriously considering the RCC. Thats why I'm asking all these questions :)

[Fairbairn]

I just think protestant denominations have lousy doctrine.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. :eek:

[TheListener]

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. :eek:
I'm aware of that.

[ChessCastle]

A converse question begs to be asked- and could yield some interesting responses.

Why do some Anglicans like Romanizing the Anglican Communion?


What exactly does this mean?

[ChessCastle]

The infallibility and over-reaching power of the Papacy.
A "works system" of salvation (even if they say it isn't - it is)
WAY TOO MUCH Marian hubub...
Works of Supereriogation (you know "above and beyond" applying graces to folks in purgatory, etc)
Purgatory as a place with time periods of stay and "releases" according to numbers of prayers
Insistance that transubstantiation is the ONLY term that fits.
Runaway clericalism.
"Offering" the "sacrifice" of the mass - speaks for itself - Jesus dies everyday?
Horrible music.
Horrible fellowship.
Horrible evanglization.
Horrible preaching and teaching.
Unholy ministers....
I think I'll stop there

Against my better judgement, I've decided to enter this thread. I won't comment on the horrible music, fellowship, preaching and teaching, because thats all a matter of opinion. I do however think it's very unfair to claim that the RCC teaches a 'works system' of salvation, this is just not true.

What is the over reaching power of the papacy you're referring to?

You mention purgatory twice, but it's not clear if you have issue with some of the things that are taught about purgatory, or if you simply don't believe in purgatory, can you clarify?

What term would you prefer to transubstantiation? If the answer is "Real Presence", would you care to explain why there is a conflict?

What is considered 'Marian hubub'? The Immaculate Conception?
The Assumption? The Rosary? The fact that the Theotokos is not ignored completely?

I have no idea what is meant by runaway clericalism, what do you mean by this?

[No Swansong]

I just want to remind everyone about two rules at this point. This can be a touchy subject for Anglicans and would like to remind you all that if this thread deteriorates into a Flame war it can and will be closed temporarily or permanantly.
Additionally let's remember that if one is not a member of an Anglican or Old Catholic Church or self-identifies as Anglican or Old Catholic one may not debate in STR.
We of course welcome questions and fellowship with our non-Anglican/Old Catholic sisters and brothers.

[ContraMundum]

What exactly does this mean?
I don't know how to answer that, because I thought the question was fairly straight-forward.

Put it this way- compare the Anglicanism of the last couple of centuries to what some Anglo-Catholics advocate now- eg. Rosaries, the Cult of Mary, etc (and the general conversation of "Rome says this, Rome says that") and you'll see a trend.

[gtsecc]

My experience with Anglo-Catholics is that they are much more EO leaning in theology, and only the liturgy looks "Roman" but, even that is only from a protestant perspective. The Sarum Rite is thoroughly English, but most would see it and say that looks like a Roman Mass.

[Aymn27]

Against my better judgement, I've decided to enter this thread. I won't comment on the horrible music, fellowship, preaching and teaching, because thats all a matter of opinion.When you've been to enough masses - it will become clear that this factual (j/j) ;) I do however think it's very unfair to claim that the RCC teaches a 'works system' of salvation, this is just not true. How many times MUST a RC go to confession in one year? What days are required attendance at mass given and what is the consequences for missing? You break the law, you do the penance - that's a basic explanation of what I mean by a works salvation - not even getting into the idea that "graces" overflowing from the saints can be applied to others, etc.

What is the over reaching power of the papacy you're referring to?His ability to dictate praxis in every diocese. He alone has the authority to appoint bishops. In the local diocese the RCC has been without a bishop for over a year and a half - what's the problem with that? A hurricane destroyed three churches here last year. They cannot be rebuilt until a bishop is appointed. What takes one and a half years to appoint a bishop? Does time stand still b/c the pope is writing an indult for the Latin Mass? Perhaps more attention should be focused on reigning in molestor priests and allowing prosecutors access to their records - which mysteriously become unavailable as they are transfered to the Roman ambassadors here and become "immune" from prosecutorial requests. Just some examples....

You mention purgatory twice, but it's not clear if you have issue with some of the things that are taught about purgatory, or if you simply don't believe in purgatory, can you clarify?I can accept that there is a "final clensing" - but it is bit much to say that we can release 100 souls from purgatory if we say five hailmarys and do the hola hoop or whatever. The whole idea of it being a "place" that includes systems and payments for sins or less time with indulgences etc is extremely strange to me.

What term would you prefer to transubstantiation? If the answer is "Real Presence", would you care to explain why there is a conflict? Well - I believe that trans and con substatiation are saying the exact same thing but in a different manner. I just don't get why the RCC has to use Aristotlean logic to arrive at the truth and declare it dogma. I can go into further detail but that would be quite a thread in itself.

What is considered 'Marian hubub'? The Immaculate Conception?
The Assumption? The Rosary? The fact that the Theotokos is not ignored completely? The Immaculate Conception goes against Scripture, Tradition and Reason - but in my opinion, many RCC practices actually do cross the line of veneration and worship. I see no point in being required to believe ANY Marian doctrine other than she was a virgin at Jesus' conception as a matter of "salvation". There is no need to pronounce "ex cathedra" statements on ANYTHING about devotion to mary b/c SHE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR SALVATION. Can she intersede for us - sure. Are we united in the Body of Christ - absolutely. Is she God's most highly favored one? - ok no prob - does she "grant us" grace - no does she save us? - no


I have no idea what is meant by runaway clericalism, what do you mean by this?
The idea that priests are the mediators for laity - that there hands are "holier" than anyone elses so they alone have the right to distribute eucharist, purify the vessles, etc. That being celibate is a "holier" status and necessary for the priesthood.

[ChessCastle]

How many times MUST a RC go to confession in one year? What days are required attendance at mass given and what is the consequences for missing? You break the law, you do the penance - that's a basic explanation of what I mean by a works salvation - not even getting into the idea that "graces" overflowing from the saints can be applied to others, etc.


You believe that by the RCC making certain works obligatory, that it teaches a system of works salvation? By this logic then, any Church which professes that baptism (which is a work) is mandatory teaches a doctrine of works salvation. This is untrue, and not a reflection of what is taught by the RCC, which is:

"If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of
the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema." From Canon I on Justification.

His ability to dictate praxis in every diocese. He alone has the authority to appoint bishops. In the local diocese the RCC has been without a bishop for over a year and a half - what's the problem with that? A hurricane destroyed three churches here last year. They cannot be rebuilt until a bishop is appointed. What takes one and a half years to appoint a bishop? Does time stand still b/c the pope is writing an indult for the Latin Mass? Perhaps more attention should be focused on reigning in molestor priests and allowing prosecutors access to their records - which mysteriously become unavailable as they are transfered to the Roman ambassadors here and become "immune" from prosecutorial requests. Just some examples....

Is it really neccesary to insult the pope, and the RCC priesthood in order to make your point here? Your issue is that only the Pope can appoint bishops, fair enough though I don't see this as a problem.


Well - I believe that trans and con substatiation are saying the exact same thing but in a different manner. I just don't get why the RCC has to use Aristotlean logic to arrive at the truth and declare it dogma. I can go into further detail but that would be quite a thread in itself.

Understandable.

The Immaculate Conception goes against Scripture, Tradition and Reason - but in my opinion, many RCC practices actually do cross the line of veneration and worship. I see no point in being required to believe ANY Marian doctrine other than she was a virgin at Jesus' conception as a matter of "salvation". There is no need to pronounce "ex cathedra" statements on ANYTHING about devotion to mary b/c SHE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR SALVATION. Can she intersede for us - sure. Are we united in the Body of Christ - absolutely. Is she God's most highly favored one? - ok no prob - does she "grant us" grace - no does she save us? - no

Again, the RCC does not teach that we are saved by the Theotokos. Veneration of the mother of God, is not 'hubbub'. You say you believe she can intercede for us, and is highly favored, then in the same breath state that she has 'nothing' to do with our salvation. If one believes in intercession of the saints, and one asks the saints to pray for the forgiveness of their sins, how can one then claim that they have 'nothing' to do with their salvation?

The idea that priests are the mediators for laity - that there hands are "holier" than anyone elses so they alone have the right to distribute eucharist, purify the vessles, etc. That being celibate is a "holier" status and necessary for the priesthood.

I was under the impression that there is married clergy within certain rites of the RCC, are they considered less holy than their counterparts?

I'm confused about the problem with priests being considered mediators. Who else distributes the Eucharist? Who else purifies the vessels? I am not arguing this point because I'm not sure I understand what you meant here.

[Fairbairn]

Our verger cleans the vessels

[No Swansong]

If one believes in intercession of the saints, and one asks the saints to pray for the forgiveness of their sins, how can one then claim that they have 'nothing' to do with their salvation?





Uh ChessCastle; Is it your contention then that the prayers of the Saints can affect forgiveness of sins?

[ChessCastle]

Uh ChessCastle; Is it your contention then that the prayers of the Saints can affect forgiveness of sins?



1 John, chapter 5

13: I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
14: And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
15: And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him.
16: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17: All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.


Yes, do you disagree?

Please feel free to contradict me if you feel I am wrong, I am not a scholar, and I'm not saying my understanding is 100% correct, but I thought we all believed this. Of course I am not saying that any of the saint give us our salvation, or that we are saved through them, and not Christ. But I believe fully in intercessory prayer, isn't this the reason we have the prayers of the people as a part of our liturgy?

[No Swansong]

1 John, chapter 5

13: I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
14: And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
15: And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him.
16: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17: All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.


Yes, do you disagree?

Please feel free to contradict me if you feel I am wrong, I am not a scholar, and I'm not saying my understanding is 100% correct, but I thought we all believed this. Of course I am not saying that any of the saint give us our salvation, or that we are saved through them, and not Christ. But I believe fully in intercessory prayer, isn't this the reason we have the prayers of the people as a part of our liturgy?


No I don't agree as it takes away the need for repentence. I prayed for years for the salvation of my brother in law and yet as far as anyone knows he died unrepentent. I do not hold that God forces salvation on anyone regardless of how many pray for the individual.

[ChessCastle]

No I don't agree as it takes away the need for repentence. I prayed for years for the salvation of my brother in law and yet as far as anyone knows he died unrepentent. I do not hold that God forces salvation on anyone regardless of how many pray for the individual.


You asked


Uh ChessCastle; Is it your contention then that the prayers of the Saints can affect forgiveness of sins? You did not ask if it is my contention that the prayers of saints can save us. The verse I quoted specifies:

16: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17: All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.


The fact that different types of sins are mentioned, and mortal sins are specifically left out, illustrates (to me), that there are at the very least some sins for which we can pray for one another to receive forgiveness.

None of this means that repentance is not neccessary, but we can sin without ever acknowledging our sin. For example, if I steal something, then I have knowingly commited a sin. But if I hurt someones feelings because I am being especially cruel on a particular day, I may never even realise this sin. Or perhaps I come home in a foul mood after a rough time at work and I am too harsh with my wife or children. These are things that can happen without us really realising it. It is my understanding that these things can, and should be prayed for by our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Also I should probably point out that I believe in purgatory, and in praying for souls in purgatory one does not pray for their salvation, as that has already been decided, otherwise those souls would be in hell.

[No Swansong]

You asked

You did not ask if it is my contention that the prayers of saints can save us. The verse I quoted specifies:

16: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17: All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.


The fact that different types of sins are mentioned, and mortal sins are specifically left out, illustrates (to me), that there are at the very least some sins for which we can pray for one another to receive forgiveness.

None of this means that repentance is not neccessary, but we can sin without ever acknowledging our sin. For example, if I steal something, then I have knowingly commited a sin. But if I hurt someones feelings because I am being especially cruel on a particular day, I may never even realise this sin. Or perhaps I come home in a foul mood after a rough time at work and I am too harsh with my wife or children. These are things that can happen without us really realising it. It is my understanding that these things can, and should be prayed for by our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Also I should probably point out that I believe in purgatory, and in praying for souls in purgatory one does not pray for their salvation, as that has already been decided, otherwise those souls would be in hell.


ChessCastle please notice I utilized the word affect and not effect.
That said thanks for sharing your POV.