The Bible - Required or Not?

[RonnyRulz]

Which do you think?

1) The Bible is required.

2) You don't have to have the Bible.


In all honesty, it appears, at least in my view and opinion, that Christians worship the Bible more than they worship God.

What do I think?

I think that the Bible is good to have and very helpful, but it's not required, or even needed. My God is ALIVE. The Bible even says

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


It is God who teaches us, not the Bible. Although the Bible is useful and helpful, and God can use it, it's not required, nor is it needed. And it's my opinion that Christians worship the Bible greater than they worship God, and more people read the Bible themselves (Man's Wisdom) than do even listen to God at all.

Who is the true God of Christianity? A book or a Person? The Bible or the Spirit of Jesus Christ? And don't say "Both" because the Bible is only called the Living Word because God is the Living part. Without God, it's just a bunch of words that NO ONE but God Himself could ever understand. Without God the Bible is useless, to us humans just words on a page, dead wood. With God it is alive, but is it the Bible that's really alive or is it just God alive and we give the credit to His written words instead of His Living Spirit?

I'm not asking any questions, no debate. I just want to know everyone's view and opinions on the question: Is the Bible required or not? Answer #1 or #2?

GO!!!!!!!!

[mont974x4]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.


Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ


The Bible is uniquely tied to Him. Whether the Holy Spirit leads us to Salvation through reading the Bible or from someone else telling us what it says..it is still His Word.

[Kelly]

How else can we decern whether what we are hearing inside is the Holy Spirit or just our own personal morals or conscience?

[mont974x4]

How else can we decern whether what we are hearing inside is the Holy Spirit or just our own personal morals or conscience?

good point. Also we need to keep our teachers in check. We are to study for ourselves not be spoon fed for life.

[RonnyRulz]

How are we to discern whether what we are reading and understand is the Holy Spirit or just our own human wisdom?

To read the Bible with man's wisdom is to misinterpret it and misunderstand it. Only the Holy Spirit can read the Bible to you correctly and only He can allow you to understand by telling you.

The answer to your question is the same answer to mine. To know the difference between Man's Wisdom / Man's Conscience and the Holy Spirit's Wisdom and the Holy Spirit is just something we have to learn, with or without the Bible.

You cannot know it's the Holy Spirit instead of Human Conscience by reading the Bible yourself. Man's Wisdom counts for nothing. You know it's the Holy Spirit the same way you know it's the Holy Spirit teaching you from the Bible. You just learn to know the difference, period. With or without the Bible.

[mont974x4]

Pray before, during and after you read the Bible.

A simple prayer that I use, especially when readin a passage or on a topic that tends to be controversial or difficult for me is as follows...
Heavenly Father I praise You and thank You for being You. You and Your Word do not change. I ask You to help me set aside my pre-concieved idea. Please soften my heart to You and open my eyes and ears to You and Your voice. Since You do not change, I ask You to change me to conform to You and Your Word. In His name, Amen.

2Ti 3:14 And thou--be remaining in the things which thou didst learn and wast entrusted with, having known from whom thou didst learn,
2Ti 3:15 and because from a babe the Holy Writings thou hast known, which are able to make thee wise--to salvation, through faith that is in Christ Jesus;
2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.

This seems to make it clear we need His Word. You are correct we need Him to understand it..and until we are called home, there will still be some mysteries.


Also, as brothers and sisters we are to look at it together so we don't get offtrack. We look at a word on context of the verse, the verse in the passage, the passage in the chapter, the chapter in the book, the book in the testament, the testament in the Bible and the Bible in context with what we know of the character of God.

[pgp_protector]

Required for what ?

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.


Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ


The Bible is uniquely tied to Him. Whether the Holy Spirit leads us to Salvation through reading the Bible or from someone else telling us what it says..it is still His Word.

The logos is Christ it is NOT the Bible. The Word of God specifically refers to Christ. Citing John 1 in way proves that scripture is necessary. Which version of the Bible is uniquely tied to God? The one Luther wanted tossing out James and Revelation? The one the Catholics use? The one the Orthodox use? The "Protestant" Bible? Which one of these is uniquely tied to God?

Christ is the Word of God. Scripture is the words of God. Trying to place scripture into John 1 is technically called bibliolatry. Nowhere in scripture can you support scripture being necessary. In fact the NT church didn't have scripture save the Torah. The scripture that makes up our NT is letters written to the NT church. They certainly didn't have scripture as we know it. This proves very easily that the Bible is not necessary for salvation. All that is necessary is a belief in Christ as God's son and confession that God raised him from the dead.

[mont974x4]

That passage from 2 Tim makes it clear that the Bible is necessary. As to what version or translation? I would suggest that is between you and God.

I would only caution that you choose a translation..not a paraphrase. Yes, there is a diference.


Sorry, but I don't see any reason to beleive that is is possible to place too much importance on God's Word.


To say we don't need the Bible is dangerous ground. IMO

the follwoing is "Word" from John 1:1


G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


I don't expect to convince you and you shouldn't expect to convince me...but rather we should submit to Him and His convincing of us both.

Peace, grace, and mercy unto you all. I need to run some errands, tend to supper, and get some homework done.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

That passage from 2 Tim makes it clear that the Bible is necessary. As to what version or translation? I would suggest that is between you and God.

I would only caution that you choose a translation..not a paraphrase. Yes, there is a diference.


Sorry, but I don't see any reason to beleive that is is possible to place too much importance on God's Word.


To say we don't need the Bible is dangerous ground. IMO

the follwoing is "Word" from John 1:1


G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


I don't expect to convince you and you shouldn't expect to convince me...but rather we should submit to Him and His convincing of us both.

Peace, grace, and mercy unto you all. I need to run some errands, tend to supper, and get some homework done.

All that 1 Tim can possibly prove is that we need the OT since the NT did not exist. In fact the Bible is not necessary:

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The Bible is a great tool for Christians but by no means necessary. Romans 10 does not prove it's necessity either as Romans 10 goes on to say that man cannot hear without someone teaching.

If you cannot tell me via scripture which Bible is required then it is obvious scripture is not requiring a Bible at all. 1 Tim could only reference the OT as the NT does not exist thereby disproving your point entirely. If anything it proves that the NT is not necessary.

That said. Having scripture as readily available as it is to those of us in the civilized world we would be remiss to not avail ourselves of it at every opportunity. I have multiple translations on my shelves and multiple commentaries, lexicons, and other reference materials. I do not however equate the importance of scripture to the importance of Christ. Only Christ is necessary for salvation. If someone never once picked up a Bible and believed the Apostle's Creed they would be bound for heaven. If I preach the Gospel and someone comes to know Christ whether or not they ever buy a Bible is a moot point. They have accepted Christ as their savior and:

Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

To elevate the Bible to the level of necessity when Christ is the only necessity is bibliolatry (worship of the Bible). Christ is the foundation of the church and nothing else. The Bible is our absolute best tool and one we should avail often but raising it to the level of necessity is in fact generally considered heresy as one begins to worship a book and not Christ himself as our living savior.

[New_Wineskin]

Which do you think?

1) The Bible is required.

2) You don't have to have the Bible.


In all honesty, it appears, at least in my view and opinion, that Christians worship the Bible more than they worship God.

What do I think?

I think that the Bible is good to have and very helpful, but it's not required, or even needed. My God is ALIVE. The Bible even says

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


It is God who teaches us, not the Bible. Although the Bible is useful and helpful, and God can use it, it's not required, nor is it needed. And it's my opinion that Christians worship the Bible greater than they worship God, and more people read the Bible themselves (Man's Wisdom) than do even listen to God at all.

Who is the true God of Christianity? A book or a Person? The Bible or the Spirit of Jesus Christ? And don't say "Both" because the Bible is only called the Living Word because God is the Living part. Without God, it's just a bunch of words that NO ONE but God Himself could ever understand. Without God the Bible is useless, to us humans just words on a page, dead wood. With God it is alive, but is it the Bible that's really alive or is it just God alive and we give the credit to His written words instead of His Living Spirit?

I'm not asking any questions, no debate. I just want to know everyone's view and opinions on the question: Is the Bible required or not? Answer #1 or #2?


GO!!!!!!!!



I agree almost completely ( leaving room for things that I may have missed while reading it ;) ) .

First of all , all who post here have given their word that the only requirements for being a Christian is that particular creed . There is *nothing* about the Scriptures being required .

I agree that the ink on wood pulp that people call their "bibles" are worshipped by many of their owners .

Are the Scriptures required ? Well , Abraham ( who the Scriptures call *our* father in faith ) had none . So , no requirement . But , people can follow the written code if they so desire .

[Amisk]

Which do you think?

1) The Bible is required.

2) You don't have to have the Bible.


In all honesty, it appears, at least in my view and opinion, that Christians worship the Bible more than they worship God.

What do I think?

I think that the Bible is good to have and very helpful, but it's not required, or even needed. My God is ALIVE. The Bible even says



While no true Christian can worship the Bible, for true worship belongs to God Almighty.

On the hand, if we don't have the Bible we would be at the mercy of every wind of doctrine that floats our way.
One of the reasons that so many Christians in today's society are weak spiritual, and fall into the grasp of false cults is because of a lack of scriptural knowledge.

There is a lack of knowledge in our Evangelical Churches of the 21st century. Lack of Biblical knowledge is one of the reasons for a lack of urgency in winning the lost in our modern society.

No, we don't worship the Bible but without the Bible there would be a lot less Christians in our present world. There are three essentials in the every Christian's life:
1. Reading and Studying the Bible.

2. Regular attendance of an Evangelical Church where repentance for sin is boldly taught, and holy living is demanded.

3. Constant prayer is a daily, and an hourly part of every Christian's life.

Without these essentials, we are spiritually sick and anaemic.

[marshgreencohen]

it's requires...i wouldn't have known any of this if there's no bible...even if u have someone who will teach u,he still needs it

[bithiah2]

Which do you think?

1) The Bible is required.

2) You don't have to have the Bible.


In all honesty, it appears, at least in my view and opinion, that Christians worship the Bible more than they worship God.

What do I think?

I think that the Bible is good to have and very helpful, but it's not required, or even needed. My God is ALIVE. The Bible even says

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


It is God who teaches us, not the Bible. Although the Bible is useful and helpful, and God can use it, it's not required, nor is it needed. And it's my opinion that Christians worship the Bible greater than they worship God, and more people read the Bible themselves (Man's Wisdom) than do even listen to God at all.

Who is the true God of Christianity? A book or a Person? The Bible or the Spirit of Jesus Christ? And don't say "Both" because the Bible is only called the Living Word because God is the Living part. Without God, it's just a bunch of words that NO ONE but God Himself could ever understand. Without God the Bible is useless, to us humans just words on a page, dead wood. With God it is alive, but is it the Bible that's really alive or is it just God alive and we give the credit to His written words instead of His Living Spirit?

I'm not asking any questions, no debate. I just want to know everyone's view and opinions on the question: Is the Bible required or not? Answer #1 or #2?


GO!!!!!!!!


no, you don't have to read the Bible. it's not required.
if you don't want to know God's Word, and don't want to grow because of the truth that it contains, then you don't have to read it at all.
we cannot know the God of the Bible without reading the Bible. a person who is truly saved knows this and has no problem with wanting to know what the Bible says. it does not mean that they always read every day, and know everything that is in the Bible but there is a difference. we cannot know God apart from knowing His Words.:holy:
Ps 119:130: - the entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.
John 6:65 - it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
and it could go on. i don't do debates, but i know what the Bible says. if a person does not want to read the Bible then no matter what anyone says will not change what they feel. that is God's job. but since you asked, i posted what i believe. i hope that you will gain a true desire to know God through His Word and not according to your opinion.God is greater than what we think.
blessings
bithiah2

[Kelly]

Remember, that it's been only about 400 years or so _at best_ where the common man was literate at all. The Catholic Church's mass was in Latin. Does that mean that a majority of Christians from the dark ages and on to the 1600's were damned due to their circumstances, I'd wager not.

[pgp_protector]

Well lets see
Faith comith by Hearing
Hearing by the word.


Hmmm Nope not reading, but hearing ;)

[RonnyRulz]

On the hand, if we don't have the Bible we would be at the mercy of every wind of doctrine that floats our way.


I disagree, if we don't have the Holy Spirit we would be at the mercy of every doctrine, but because we have a LIVING God, the Holy Spirit inside and beside us, if we just pray and ask His Counsel, we would not be at the mercy of false-doctrine, but would only know truth. It is God who gives truth, not the Bible. And if we have the God and take away the Bible, can we no longer have the truth? Absolutely not! It is God who is truth, and God is illuminates the truth. He doesn't need the Bible to show himself a Living God.

One of the reasons that so many Christians in today's society are weak spiritual, and fall into the grasp of false cults is because of a lack of scriptural knowledge.

I disagree, I think it's because of a lack of spiritual knowledge, not scriptural knowledge. It's a lack of turning to God in prayer for the truth, not reading the Bible for the truth.


we cannot know the God of the Bible without reading the Bible


Error. Error. Error. I completely disagree with that statement.

My God is a Living God, and I can know Him without any physical object.

Don't believe me? Well let's look at other people who knew Him without reading the Bible...

Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, the Disciples, Anyone in the New Testament, Anyone in the Old Testament.

None of those had to read the Bible to know God. To say you cannot know the God of the Bible without reading the Bible is to say that He isn't a Living, Active, Real, God. It's saying He's only a book, He's only Living in scripture. That's not true, my God is alive and I CAN know Him without reading the Bible. Just like all those who walked before me, old and new testament.

[twistedsketch]

However, God is not going to tell you to contradict the Bible. There are a whole lot of people out there who think they're doing God's will, they feel or think it's right, but what they do is not right - killing their children, leaving their spouses, cheating the poor, you name it. You need a reliable anchor to keep you grounded in the reality that is God's will. The Bible is just the tool for the job.

Furthermore, without the Bible, the works of God would be forgotten. You cite Moses, but why then did God reveal to him the events of Genesis? You cite David, but why did he write so many of the Psalms? You cite the Disciples, but why did they or their disciples write down the events of the Gospels?

Furthermore, everyone you mentioned after Moses had at least some Scripture.

[RonnyRulz]

Furthermore, without the Bible, the works of God would be forgotten.

Yea, but we can forget the works of God in the past (except Jesus) because our God is ALIVE and works today. We don't have to have the works of God's past when we have the works of God's present. As for the exception of the work of Jesus in the past, that is a requirement of salvation. But God can reveal Jesus's sacrifice to us by himself without the Bible and without man. He could just come down and say "I died for your sins, you are forgiven." and that's all you'd need of God's past works. And even still it could be passed down orally, so you don't have to have the written bible, but can have a verbal word of how Jesus died for our sins. And that's easy to pass down and keep, seeing as how all christians know that.

You cite Moses, but why then did God reveal to him the events of Genesis? You cite David, but why did he write so many of the Psalms? You cite the Disciples, but why did they or their disciples write down the events of the Gospels?
Yea, but I also cited Adam and Eve. Abraham? Isaac? Lot? Noah? Shem? Seth? Cain? Able? You can't say "but why did God" with scripture to that. If you can't do it to all of them, don't try, lol.


Furthermore, everyone you mentioned after Moses had at least some Scripture

First, that isn't much scripture. Second, they didn't require it, Jesus could have known the Father and Holy Spirit without scripture. Third and majorly, no that isn't true. A lot of people couldn't read, and the Bible wasn't in every motel. A written copy of the Bible was something to be treasured, and even then it was rather useless since you couldn't read.

"Remember, that it's been only about 400 years or so _at best_ where the common man was literate at all. The Catholic Church's mass was in Latin. Does that mean that a majority of Christians from the dark ages and on to the 1600's were damned due to their circumstances, I'd wager not."
-Kelly

[twistedsketch]

Yea, but we can forget the works of God in the past (except Jesus) because our God is ALIVE and works today. We don't have to have the works of God's past when we have the works of God's present. As for the exception of the work of Jesus in the past, that is a requirement of salvation. But God can reveal Jesus's sacrifice to us by himself without the Bible and without man. He could just come down and say "I died for your sins, you are forgiven." and that's all you'd need of God's past works. And even still it could be passed down orally, so you don't have to have the written bible, but can have a verbal word of how Jesus died for our sins. And that's easy to pass down and keep, seeing as how all christians know that.
So you believe we should forget the creation, the flood, the Ten Plagues, the crossing of the Red Sea, David bringing down Goliath, Daniel and the lion's den, his three friends and the furnace, and all that?



Yea, but I also cited Adam and Eve. Abraham? Isaac? Lot? Noah? Shem? Seth? Cain? Able? You can't say "but why did God" with scripture to that. If you can't do it to all of them, don't try, lol.
You didn't answer the question. As it stands, if you were right, we wouldn't have Bibles at all.




First, that isn't much scripture. Second, they didn't require it, Jesus could have known the Father and Holy Spirit without scripture. Third and majorly, no that isn't true. A lot of people couldn't read, and the Bible wasn't in every motel. A written copy of the Bible was something to be treasured, and even then it was rather useless since you couldn't read.


Scripture however, was written down for the priests and Levites, who would in turn pass it on to the people orally. People would get their Scripture one way or another.



"Remember, that it's been only about 400 years or so _at best_ where the common man was literate at all. The Catholic Church's mass was in Latin. Does that mean that a majority of Christians from the dark ages and on to the 1600's were damned due to their circumstances, I'd wager not."
-Kelly


They were saved if they knew and believed the Gospel. However, the Bible was written down so the priests would at least get a chance to read it before preaching. Also, enough priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes grew corrupt and didn't do their job so that many people had one perversion of the truth or another. Had Bibles been readily available, as they more or less were in the days of the Early Church, there would not have been Crusaders, flagellants, abused indulgences, or many of the other blights in church history.

[RonnyRulz]

You missed the point.

I'm not saying the Bible is useless or that we should forget what God did in the past.
I am saying that it is not required, nor is it vital, because our God is alive today just like he was before.
I'm not saying the Bible isn't good, because it's great when God reads it to us humans.
I am saying that some men worship the Bible and their own wisdom instead of worshipping God and His.
I'm not saying the Bible sucks.
I am saying that the very Living Fresh Word of God is better than the old school Word of God.

My God is a Living God, but for some reason or another people just don't seem to understand that. They don't seem to grasp that you don't need anything because God is everything, that you don't need the past because you have the present. God is just alive, powerful, active, and is giving His Words now at this present time, more so now that Jesus ascended unto the father, than He ever has before.

The priests and levites only wished they had full blown access to the very Throneroom of the Ancient of Days like we have today under Jesus's blood. But my fear is that more Christians than not are still stuck in the priest and levite Old Testament style of "We have God's written word." instead of the Blood Bought Christian New Testament style of "Who needs the written word when you have access to the THRONEROOM OF GOD HIMSELF!" It is my hope that I spend more time in the throneroom of God than I ever do having the Holy Spirit read me the Bible. Yea, the Holy Spirit has taught me some amazing things through the Bible, but my greatest lessons have come from the Heavenly Throneroom of His Spirit. If I had to choose between the Bible or access to God's Throneroom, it wouldn't be a choice, I'd instantly throw the Bible away.

The Bible is good, it's great, and the Holy Spirit uses it to teach us great things, but woe to him who places the Bible as greater than God Himself. And that, my good friend, is my fear of Christianity today. Worship of the Written Word of God, not the God of the written word. Don't misunderstand me, the Bible is great. It's just that God Himself is so much greater, who really cares about the Bible unless it's God Himself reading it to you?

I for one don't care about churches, books so holy I could never understand, traditions, or all that jazz. All I care about is God Himself. If God Himself is in a church, I will be there attending. If God Himself is reading the Bible, I will be there listening. If God Himself is in worship, communion, whatever man does, then I will be there right by my brothers in tradition. If God Himself is playing jazz, I will be there right by him dancing.

But I won't be there for that stuff, I'm after only one thing, and that's God's Heart. Where God is, I will be there. If He tells me to pick up my Bible, then so be it, but only because He will read it to me like a sweet poem. I have no interest in a book I can't understand or words I don't care to read, but I am fully interested in my Beloved Savior and all that He has to give.

[twistedsketch]

So I take it you have seen greater miracles than those that the Bible describes, eh? I too believe in a living God, and if not for Scripture I wouldn't know how great He is or if I could even pray to Him. Because of the "old school Word of God" I know that if He can part the Red Sea and raise the dead, He can certainly intervene in much smaller ways in my daily life.

[New_Wineskin]

You missed the point.

I'm not saying the Bible is useless ...

Few will get that point . As soon as you question the requirement , most will think that you are saying that it is useless .

A hammer can pound a nail . It is quite useful in doing that . Is a hammer required to pound a nail ? No . I can pound a nail with a brick or many other things . The hammer not being required does not make it useless . I know that you understand that . People will not understand that with regards to the Scriptures because they have the same mindset of the religious leaders in the day of Jesus and Paul . They have come to depend on the written code . Saying anything less than it is required makes you questionable .

[MarkEvan]

I'm not saying the Bible is useless or that we should forget what God did in the past.
I am saying that it is not required, nor is it vital, because our God is alive today just like he was before.
I'm not saying the Bible isn't good, because it's great when God reads it to us humans.
I am saying that some men worship the Bible and their own wisdom instead of worshipping God and His.
I'm not saying the Bible sucks.
I am saying that the very Living Fresh Word of God is better than the old school Word of God.

My God is a Living God, but for some reason or another people just don't seem to understand that. They don't seem to grasp that you don't need anything because God is everything, that you don't need the past because you have the present. God is just alive, powerful, active, and is giving His Words now at this present time, more so now that Jesus ascended unto the father, than He ever has before.

The priests and levites only wished they had full blown access to the very Throneroom of the Ancient of Days like we have today under Jesus's blood. But my fear is that more Christians than not are still stuck in the priest and levite Old Testament style of "We have God's written word." instead of the Blood Bought Christian New Testament style of "Who needs the written word when you have access to the THRONEROOM OF GOD HIMSELF!" It is my hope that I spend more time in the throneroom of God than I ever do having the Holy Spirit read me the Bible. Yea, the Holy Spirit has taught me some amazing things through the Bible, but my greatest lessons have come from the Heavenly Throneroom of His Spirit. If I had to choose between the Bible or access to God's Throneroom, it wouldn't be a choice, I'd instantly throw the Bible away.

The Bible is good, it's great, and the Holy Spirit uses it to teach us great things, but woe to him who places the Bible as greater than God Himself. And that, my good friend, is my fear of Christianity today. Worship of the Written Word of God, not the God of the written word. Don't misunderstand me, the Bible is great. It's just that God Himself is so much greater, who really cares about the Bible unless it's God Himself reading it to you?

I for one don't care about churches, books so holy I could never understand, traditions, or all that jazz. All I care about is God Himself. If God Himself is in a church, I will be there attending. If God Himself is reading the Bible, I will be there listening. If God Himself is in worship, communion, whatever man does, then I will be there right by my brothers in tradition. If God Himself is playing jazz, I will be there right by him dancing.

But I won't be there for that stuff, I'm after only one thing, and that's God's Heart. Where God is, I will be there. If He tells me to pick up my Bible, then so be it, but only because He will read it to me like a sweet poem. I have no interest in a book I can't understand or words I don't care to read, but I am fully interested in my Beloved Savior and all that He has to give.



I agree almost entirely with what you say, but (and I think you know this) for those of us with access to the bible then, although I will not say it is required because there are many who do not have access to the scriptures and yet God teaches them through His spirit and what they learn is biblical, so as i said I will not say it is required, but for we who have access why would we not want to read and study, allowing the Spirit to show us what God is like, it is after all through the scriptures and the interpretation through the Spirit that God chooses to reveal His character. As Jesus said "if you are truelly my disciples then you will continue in my word my word is truth and the truth shall set you free," it is through the scriptures that the Holy Spirit shows us what is truth.

Mark :)

[JTLauder]

There are 2 different concepts to look at. And it's all a matter of perspective and you can't look at them in absolutes without considering the practical nature of things.

First, if you are talking about the "requirement" for the physical book of the Bible, then as an object, it's not "required" because as you noted, some people regard the book object itself as sacred and holy rather than the words contained in them. And it's really just paper, ink, and glue (and leather for those of you who have leather Bibles)--that's all it is.

HOWEVER, that's all well and good from a theoretical perspective, but is too simplisitic from a practical standpoint.

Unless you've memorized the entire Bible (in both the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic languages as well as the translations of whatever language you are fluent in which in this case I assume to be English) in both your mind and hearts and you are able to pass all that information down accurately to other people so the word continues to exist after you die, then having it all written down as something to reference not only for yourself but for all the people in the world and for years after your own knowledge and understanding ceases to exist, is absolutely vital.

The other argument you are making is that people tend to worship the Bible's words rather than worshiping God himself. Looking at it from only one side, you are correct that it is a problem. The freedom in Christ frees us from mandating that we adhere to the old Law of the Bible and to try and do so would be legalistic like the Pharisees of Jesus' days. You are absolutely 100% correct that the most important thing is your relationship to Jesus and focus should be placed on that and worshipping God. And if you have a strong relationship with God, you are in direct communication with him about his character, his history, and his will, so you should not need a intermediary like a written book of God's and man's history to act as a substitute.

HOWEVER, this too is all well and good from a theoretical, theological, and spiritual perspective, but is not realistic from a practical standpoint.

Humans have a fallen nature. Christians may be saved and have their sins all washed away, but the old nature still exists. We are not perfect, and therefore are relationship with God cannot be perfect. More mature Christians may have a stronger relationship with God and know his character and will better, but fault still exists. We are by nature physical as well as spiritual beings and need something more concrete to solidify our Christian walk especially during those times when we feel distant from God. Because we have problems coming to God on our own, the Bible serves as an instrument to help us come to God. If the objective of using the Bible serves only to place the Bible's contents on a pedestal, than that's akin to idol worship. The Bible is suppose to be used to bring us closer to God. Anything, not just the Bible, that brings us closer to God is a good thing.

The Bible exists, not as something to worship, but as something to help us in our Christian lives. To dismiss such a gift from God would almost be dismissing a part of God. Life is hard enough and filled with conflict even among fellow Christians. Why not make the most of available tools God has given to help us.

[elsbeth]

I became Christian, not through the Bible, but by the testimony of believers. God speaks to me through the Bible, but He also speaks through secular things, through other people, through dreams, and a few precious times pretty much direct.
Back through history the majority of Christains have not had a Bible that they could read or study (for the early Christians the NT wasn't even there yet, of course) so how could it possibly be required?
I agree that many Christians pretty much worship the Bible, rather than the God it was written about.

[SteelDisciple]

Cults are started because there are people out there that don't KNOW God's Word. The only way to learn and grow in God is by learning His word. He sent it to us so that we can LEARN lessons in the teachings.

God gave us the Bible for growth. Without it you are a stunted christian.

[pgp_protector]

Cults are started because there are people out there that don't KNOW God's Word. The only way to learn and grow in God is by learning His word. He sent it to us so that we can LEARN lessons in the teachings.

God gave us the Bible for growth. Without it you are a stunted christian.

So for all the years people did not have the printing press allowing easy access to bibles, they were stunted Christians ?

[mont974x4]

So for all the years people did not have the printing press allowing easy access to bibles, they were stunted Christians ?


Whether it is spoken or written it is God's Word, and yes, it is needed for salvation and for growth.

[twistedsketch]

So for all the years people did not have the printing press allowing easy access to bibles, they were stunted Christians ?

First, in the Roman world, there was reasonable access to Bibles and a decent literacy rate. Second, in the medieval times yes they were stunted Christians unless their priests actually did their job, and we know that not all of them did.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Whether it is spoken or written it is God's Word, and yes, it is needed for salvation and for growth.

Christ is God's Word not Scripture. The Word is Christ. The Bible, which there is significant debate as to which translation is accurate and which canon is the full scripture, is a resource for us. Scripture is clear that every piece of creation speaks to God and his nature. The Bible is NOT required for salvation. There is not one single scripture that backs this point. It is a heretical viewpoint as it adds to Christ's work. Christ's work on the cross is ALL that we need. The Bible is an IMPORTANT resource but it is NOT required. Nowhere in scripture does it state otherwise. It is book compiled by men and under debate as to what is the fullness thereof. I see nowhere that you have to believe in your heart that Christ was God's son and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead and read your Bible to be saved. I do not see Christ saying believe and be baptized and read the Bible and you will be saved.

As important as the Bible is to us a resource. As God's communication with us. It is not a requirement for salvation. Saying that it is is the heresy of bibliolatory.

[mont974x4]

Please be careful how you toss around the word heresy. I suspect you are just passionate and not intentionally offensive.



As to Scritpure...I define it as God's Word...be it written or spoken...is a key element of our relationship with God. I truely doubt that a person can place too much importance on God's Word.

Reading your Bible is not a saving act...hearing and understanding His Word is the key. Yes, this is a work of the Holy Spirit. The Word, is just the tool.

None of us would be saved if we didn't know the Gospel. How do we know the Gospel? Either by reading it or hearing it and the Holy Spirit works in our heart so that we understand it.

This seems pretty basic to me and if we can't agree on these things, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

I do pray you will be filled with His grace and mercy and that He richly blesses you everyday.

[ReformedChapin]

The essentails for salvation include recognizing a triune God and the atonment in the person of Jesus Christ WITHOUT neglecting his diety. That does not include the bible if you want to play semantics, but any truthfully saved person would solidly live by his word to bring God's riches into their life. You have to remember God want's more than just save us, he wants to santify us.

[- DRA -]

Which do you think?

1) The Bible is required.

2) You don't have to have the Bible.

In all honesty, it appears, at least in my view and opinion, that Christians worship the Bible more than they worship God.

What do I think?

I think that the Bible is good to have and very helpful, but it's not required, or even needed. My God is ALIVE. The Bible even says

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

It is God who teaches us, not the Bible. Although the Bible is useful and helpful, and God can use it, it's not required, nor is it needed. And it's my opinion that Christians worship the Bible greater than they worship God, and more people read the Bible themselves (Man's Wisdom) than do even listen to God at all.

Who is the true God of Christianity? A book or a Person? The Bible or the Spirit of Jesus Christ? And don't say "Both" because the Bible is only called the Living Word because God is the Living part. Without God, it's just a bunch of words that NO ONE but God Himself could ever understand. Without God the Bible is useless, to us humans just words on a page, dead wood. With God it is alive, but is it the Bible that's really alive or is it just God alive and we give the credit to His written words instead of His Living Spirit?

I'm not asking any questions, no debate. I just want to know everyone's view and opinions on the question: Is the Bible required or not? Answer #1 or #2?

GO!!!!!!!!

Yes, the Bible is required. Our faith is based on it (Rom. 10:17), and it is able to save our souls -- if we heed what it says and obey it (James 1:21-25).

To me, 1 John 2:27 is best understood by considering previous points John made in his epistle about why it was written, who it was written to, and what was said about God's word i.e. 1:4, 2:1, 2:5, 2:7, 2:8, 2:12-14, 2:21, & 2:24.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 stresses the significance of "all Scripture" -- it thoroughly furnishes us with all that we need to serve and follow God. Therefore, those who accept what this passage says find all they need in the Scriptures to please God. It really isn't a matter of God versus the Bible, but simply a matter of accepting that God's word is God's word -- and treating it as such.

[- DRA -]

Which do you think?

1) The Bible is required.

2) You don't have to have the Bible.


In all honesty, it appears, at least in my view and opinion, that Christians worship the Bible more than they worship God.

What do I think?

I think that the Bible is good to have and very helpful, but it's not required, or even needed. My God is ALIVE. The Bible even says

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


It is God who teaches us, not the Bible. Although the Bible is useful and helpful, and God can use it, it's not required, nor is it needed. And it's my opinion that Christians worship the Bible greater than they worship God, and more people read the Bible themselves (Man's Wisdom) than do even listen to God at all.

Who is the true God of Christianity? A book or a Person? The Bible or the Spirit of Jesus Christ? And don't say "Both" because the Bible is only called the Living Word because God is the Living part. Without God, it's just a bunch of words that NO ONE but God Himself could ever understand. Without God the Bible is useless, to us humans just words on a page, dead wood. With God it is alive, but is it the Bible that's really alive or is it just God alive and we give the credit to His written words instead of His Living Spirit?

I'm not asking any questions, no debate. I just want to know everyone's view and opinions on the question: Is the Bible required or not? Answer #1 or #2?

GO!!!!!!!!

In your OP, you stated, "No debate." However, in reviewing the posts, it appears that things are being discussed. Therefore, assuming that things are indeed open for discussion, I would like to know why you feel the need to separate God from the Bible? Is the Bible His word or not? You are concerned that more people read the Bible than even listen to God. I have to wonder how God speaks to you separate and apart from His word? Can you explain how this works? And, what specifically does God tell you?

Frankly, I am not aware of anyone that has confused God with His word. I suspect that this charge is possibly a red herring by those who may not be giving God's word the respect that it warrants i.e. 1 Peter 4:11a.

[irenemcg]

I am not debating just quoting a Scripture.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[RonnyRulz]

Few will get that point . As soon as you question the requirement , most will think that you are saying that it is useless .

A hammer can pound a nail . It is quite useful in doing that . Is a hammer required to pound a nail ? No . I can pound a nail with a brick or many other things . The hammer not being required does not make it useless . I know that you understand that . People will not understand that with regards to the Scriptures because they have the same mindset of the religious leaders in the day of Jesus and Paul . They have come to depend on the written code . Saying anything less than it is required makes you questionable .

Wow, thanks, you put it in a very nice and logical way and I needed to hear that and learn to understand it. ^_^


In your OP, you stated, "No debate." However, in reviewing the posts, it appears that things are being discussed


I just wanted to emphasize more of what other's thought more-so than debate. But I figured that was dumb of me so I deleted the big "NO DEBATE" from my original OP, but didn't edit it all. I tend to edit my posts a lot. Debate is fine with me.

[RonnyRulz]

Here's what Jesus says,


Thy Word is a lamp unto our feet and a ilght unto our path.--Psalm cxix. 105.
Yes! My Word, the Scriptures. Read them, study them; store them in your hearts, use them as you use a lamp to guide your footsteps.
But remember, My children, My Word is more even than that. It is the Voice that speaks to your hearts, that inner consciousness that tells of Me.
It is the Voice that speaks to you intimately, personally, in this sacred evening time. It is even more than that. It is I your Lord and Friend.
"And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us." Truly a lamp to your feet, and a light to your path.

[bigdAddyweAve423]

Okay, I am not going to read the previous posts for this, I think this a no brainer.

Yes, the Bible is required.

[SteelDisciple]

Christ is God's Word not Scripture. The Word is Christ. The Bible, which there is significant debate as to which translation is accurate and which canon is the full scripture, is a resource for us. Scripture is clear that every piece of creation speaks to God and his nature. The Bible is NOT required for salvation. There is not one single scripture that backs this point. It is a heretical viewpoint as it adds to Christ's work. Christ's work on the cross is ALL that we need. The Bible is an IMPORTANT resource but it is NOT required. Nowhere in scripture does it state otherwise. It is book compiled by men and under debate as to what is the fullness thereof. I see nowhere that you have to believe in your heart that Christ was God's son and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead and read your Bible to be saved. I do not see Christ saying believe and be baptized and read the Bible and you will be saved.

As important as the Bible is to us a resource. As God's communication with us. It is not a requirement for salvation. Saying that it is is the heresy of bibliolatory.


I think there's a mis-communication in the thread. Is the Bible needed for the act of salvation? Nope. It's not.

But to grow and maintain a DEVELOPING relationship with God...yes. It's VITAL. It's the only way to learn the lessons God wants us to learn.

Is learning vital to keeping our brain functioning? No. But without learning our brains will never grow. Same principal.

Christians who do not study and learn from the writings of God are stunted spiritual Christians. And often the ones who distort the Truth of God the most.

An ignorant christian is far more dangerous than any anti-Christian could ever be.

[linssue55]

Which do you think?

1) The Bible is required.

2) You don't have to have the Bible.


In all honesty, it appears, at least in my view and opinion, that Christians worship the Bible more than they worship God.

What do I think?

I think that the Bible is good to have and very helpful, but it's not required, or even needed. My God is ALIVE. The Bible even says

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


It is God who teaches us, not the Bible. Although the Bible is useful and helpful, and God can use it, it's not required, nor is it needed. And it's my opinion that Christians worship the Bible greater than they worship God, and more people read the Bible themselves (Man's Wisdom) than do even listen to God at all.

Who is the true God of Christianity? A book or a Person? The Bible or the Spirit of Jesus Christ? And don't say "Both" because the Bible is only called the Living Word because God is the Living part. Without God, it's just a bunch of words that NO ONE but God Himself could ever understand. Without God the Bible is useless, to us humans just words on a page, dead wood. With God it is alive, but is it the Bible that's really alive or is it just God alive and we give the credit to His written words instead of His Living Spirit?

I'm not asking any questions, no debate. I just want to know everyone's view and opinions on the question: Is the Bible required or not? Answer #1 or #2?


GO!!!!!!!!
The bible IS the mind of Christ!



"The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder, the soul and the spirit, the joints of the marrow, and is the thought and critic and intense of the heart. All scripture is God breathed, and is profitable, for doctrine, for re-proof, for correction for instructions in righteousness, that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamded, rightly dividing the word of truth."

[holo]

How else can we decern whether what we are hearing inside is the Holy Spirit or just our own personal morals or conscience?How did Paul (Saul) discern? He knew the scriptures, and yet was completely blind to facts. God had to do a miracle. We can trust God to communicate with us just as securely as he communicated with Adam, Joseph, David, Paul etc.

[Nadiine]

The bible IS the mind of Christ!

"The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder, the soul and the spirit, the joints of the marrow, and is the thought and critic and intense of the heart. All scripture is God breathed, and is profitable, for doctrine, for re-proof, for correction for instructions in righteousness, that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamded, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Well said =D

to the OP: IT'S THE BIBLE THAT DEFINES AND RELAYS THIS GOD. He's not SEPARATE from or contrary to the very Writings He gave to the prophets & apostles who penned it.

Scriptures DEFINE the religion & set it apart from all others. How do you claim we don't "need" the scriptures? That's equivalent to saying, "I know God, but I don't need to be able to verify He's true". That to me, is blind faith and very susceptible to fallibility. :o


God USES that vehicle to directly relay Himself because He operates by FAITH. It IS the means of relaying Himself to us in depth. The subsequent "feelings" we get by the Spirit ARE MERELY CONFIRMATIONS TO THE WRITTEN TRUTH FOUND IN THAT BIBLE. They go hand in hand.

You don't know how salvation works until you read Paul's detailed explanations in the NT. Without it, you don't know any details about His crucifixion... which miracles Jesus did (or if He even did any!)... or the parables He taught or prayers He prayed..etc. until you READ THE BIBLE accounts.

2Ti 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti003.html#16) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Mat 22:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat022.html#29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Act 17:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act017.html#2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Mat 26:56 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#56) But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.
Luk 24:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
1Ti 4:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti004.html#16) Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Rom 16:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom016.html#26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

We also rely heavily on the EXAMPLES they gave us in what they did... It also gives detailed guidelines on proper [corporate] church conduct, function & disciplines as well as financial giving.

I think it's imperative to realize WHY God had His word written out to us... namely by direct eyewitnesses of His being and working. (God uses human eyewitnesses as a proof of His authenticity. This is acceptable as truth in courts of law; namely by 2 or more witnesses).
Isa 43:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa043.html#10) Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
How does God VERIFY who He is to us? The Bible also purposely foretells future events (prophecy) to help PROVE He's the true God. You NEED the events written out to PROVE you foretold them beforhand.

YHVH works by FAITH. So He isn't going to be operating as He did in the OT. with personal/angelic visitations and showing miracles to everyone.
Written teachings are necessary, and God uses the Holy Scriptures for important reasons.
Jesus also quoted the OT in support of those very scriptures in front of eyewitnesses who relay it.
Jhn 5:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn005.html#46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

There's also the issue about formally writing out laws.
Laws are enforcable when written and given to the people to be aware of.

No one can just say, "God is a pencil", or, "well, God told me that adultery & porn are Fine".
We can all point to the verses where it's written out. & yes, people CAN argue/deny them all day long... but they're still written clearly despite human rebellion or interpretation and still stand.

It puts everyone on the "same page" (as it were) to know what God wants and doesn't want of us.
(outside our inner concience of course..
Rom 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom002.html#14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom002.html#15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Jam 4:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam004.html#17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.
Our conscience goes hand in hand w/ God's word.
So what's being "worshipped" there?? :confused: :scratch:
What is from the Mind of God isn't worshipped, BUT HE HIMSELF IS.

Scriptures/bibles are what DEFINE the religion/God/ at the closest source. You can't claim to be a genuine Muslim while you reject the mandates of the Qu'ran/Koran & claim Jesus Christ is God.
These help set apart & define, again, it's NOT worship of the Book.

In the end, we EITHER ACCEPT AND BELIEVE WHAT'S WRITTEN in the bible, or we don't. The Scriptures claim that Scripture is 1 way God chooses to relay Himself to mankind.

To deny that written fact, is to indirectly claim you reject the Bible's teachings about God. Therefore, you are stepping away from belief of that scripture to decide it's erroneous.
And when you claim it's in error, you are then putting yourself in the place of personally deciding God's truth.
Picking out which verses are TRUE and which are NOT.
:eek:
We become the authority on God and Truth when we deny scripture. (the same would go for self proclaimed Muslims who reject/deny teachings, laws or claims of the Qu'ran - to create their own separate personal beliefs of their god, Allah that contradict the written mandate of Islam).

Please do a word study on "doctrine(s)" and "scripture(s)" before making such statements. :sigh:

[HephzibahBenJudah]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

[InDeoHonorium2]

2

(short post) I tell people don't place your whole faith and beliefs in a book.......

[noparty]

If the Bible is required, then literacy is required. It's a nice reference, but can also be a huge stumbling block. I would say it is not required.

[Nadiine]

If the Bible is required, then literacy is required. It's a nice reference, but can also be a huge stumbling block. I would say it is not required.

Required for what? Salvation? No, it's certainly NOT required for salvation...

IT IS required to be believed as TRUTH OF THE LIVING GOD upon the teaching of it.
God has appointed teachers to teach His word as well. 1 Cor. 12-14.

To deny it's central teachings, is to reject what God said one must believe in order to be born again (be His).
God won't come to someone with a gospel OTHER THAN what's already given by Him in our Bible. The 2 'revelations' will be in full agreement because they are from the same God.

The key is, what is it required FOR. As the earlier verse was quoted, Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.
(I also gave a list of other verses below claiming that scriptures are imperative).

[mont974x4]

In a sense, it is a stumbling block. Paul talked about how he needed the Law to know he was sinning. His reference was covetousness. Loving my enemies is an issue for me. It wouldn't be if I didn't know God wanted me to. I know this is what He wants because I read it in His Word.

Depending on what He is working on in us, some passages can be uncomfortable and, in a sense, a stumbling block. Thank God it is such, so that I can grow to be more the man He wants me to be.

EDIT: I also will say again, that it is required for salvation. Whether we read it or it told to us, the message of the Gospel is God's Word.

[noparty]

The key is, what is it required FOR. As the earlier verse was quoted, Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.
(I also gave a list of other verses below claiming that scriptures are imperative).

I'm not sure you can use the Bible to prove that the Bible is required. Yes, it is true that the Bible is required to believe the Bible. I don't think anyone would argue against that. I thought the question was whether the Bible was required to be a Christian. Sorry if I misinterpretted.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Well said =D

to the OP: IT'S THE BIBLE THAT DEFINES AND RELAYS THIS GOD. He's not SEPARATE from or contrary to the very Writings He gave to the prophets & apostles who penned it.
This raises a paper and ink book to the level of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Bible is not part of the Trinity. It is not a required entity for salvation. He never speaks contrary to what is written but He also is not limited by needing writing to reveal Himself to us.

Scriptures DEFINE the religion & set it apart from all others. How do you claim we don't "need" the scriptures? That's equivalent to saying, "I know God, but I don't need to be able to verify He's true". That to me, is blind faith and very susceptible to fallibility. :o
We do not NEED the scriptures. God is revealed in His creation. You are raising scripture to the level of Christ's sacrifice. If every Bible disappeared tomorrow we would still be Christians and still be able to be led by the Holy Spirit. The Bible, while an extremely important tool, is not required. Nowhere in scripture does it even mention a requirement of the Bible. The very canon is not even the same throughout Christendom and that alone shows it cannot be required. If you need tha logic explained I will be glad to do so.

God USES that vehicle to directly relay Himself because He operates by FAITH. It IS the means of relaying Himself to us in depth. The subsequent "feelings" we get by the Spirit ARE MERELY CONFIRMATIONS TO THE WRITTEN TRUTH FOUND IN THAT BIBLE. They go hand in hand.
This is again bibliolatry. God is not required in any manner nor bound to reveal Himself through scripture. The Holy Spirit is NOT confirmations of what we read. He is our teacher. Of course all of this doctrine is backed by scripture. Scripture is our most important tool and we would be fools not to avail ourselves of it often and early but trying to make it a requirement elevates it to a level of worship and places it on the same level as Christ's sacrifice and as such is a formal heresy.

You don't know how salvation works until you read Paul's detailed explanations in the NT. Without it, you don't know any details about His crucifixion... which miracles Jesus did (or if He even did any!)... or the parables He taught or prayers He prayed..etc. until you READ THE BIBLE accounts.
Someone could verbally relay the stories to you without the need for the printed Bible. In fact I do believe scripture states clearly that faith comes by HEARING. The word of God would not cease if the Bible ceased to exist. If every Bible in the world were burned in huge bonfire God would still insure his word was spread throughout the land. Scripture is a great tool for us but by no means required. The first Christians didn't have a Bible. The church in Acts didn't have a Bible. So trying to say it is required is refuted there as well.

2Ti 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti003.html#16) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
And when this verse was written the only scripture was the Torah. The writers of the letters in the NT had no clue their letters would later be canon. They were Christians communicating God's truths to other Christians and oddly enough doing so without the Bible that you claim is required.

Mat 22:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat022.html#29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Again the reference can only be concerning to Torah as the NT wasn't anywhere near being written at the time these words were uttered. Christ was referring to what we know as the OT and rebuking the Sadducees for not knowing the laws with which they were trying to trip him up. The verse is quoted out of context and does not mean what is implied.

Act 17:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act017.html#2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Yes Paul went and used the Torah to prove to Jews that Christ was the Messiah. Again a reference only to the Torah. You will not find Paul or Peter using the Torah to reason with Gentiles. They simply taught Christ and Him crucified. The arguments from the Torah were made to Jews.
Mat 26:56 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat026.html#56) But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.
Another out of context quote but again only referring to the Torah and not the NT.
Luk 24:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Again using the Torah when dealing with Jews. Paul quoted pagan philosophers when dealing with pagans but we don't claim pagan philosophers are required. The logic doesn't hold up when taken out to it's conclusions.
1Ti 4:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti004.html#16) Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
And at the time this was written there was no NT. The doctrine referred to is the doctrine being taught by mouth by the Apostles and not scripture. The letters that make up the NT were still being written to churches and wouldn't be scripture for centuries.
Rom 16:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom016.html#26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Another reference to the Torah and not the Bible as we know it today. This does not prove any requirement of the Bible.

We also rely heavily on the EXAMPLES they gave us in what they did... It also gives detailed guidelines on proper [corporate] church conduct, function & disciplines as well as financial giving.
And not a single thing listed there is a requirement for salvation. Again no-one is denying that the Bible is our best tool but to elevate it to the level of requirement means that Christ's sacrifice was not enough and we need more than that.

I think it's imperative to realize WHY God had His word written out to us... namely by direct eyewitnesses of His being and working. (God uses human eyewitnesses as a proof of His authenticity. This is acceptable as truth in courts of law; namely by 2 or more witnesses).
[CENTER]Isa 43:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa043.html#10) [COLOR=magenta]Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
How does God VERIFY who He is to us? The Bible also purposely foretells future events (prophecy) to help PROVE He's the true God. You NEED the events written out to PROVE you foretold them beforhand.
The Bible is NOT the only means by which God does this. Of course I have to go to scripture to prove that, again proving the Bible our best tool:

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

We see His divine nature in creation alone by what is MADE and not what is WRITTEN.

YHVH works by FAITH. So He isn't going to be operating as He did in the OT. with personal/angelic visitations and showing miracles to everyone.
Written teachings are necessary, and God uses the Holy Scriptures for important reasons.
Jesus also quoted the OT in support of those very scriptures in front of eyewitnesses who relay it.
Scriptures are important but not required. Christ's sacrifice was more than enough. Christ used the Torah to prove who he was to the Jews. You will not find the Torah being used with Gentiles. You will not find scripture referenced when dealing with Gentiles because Jewish scripture would have meant nothing to them at all. Paul used their own philosophers and their own writings.
Jhn 5:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn005.html#46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Again referencing the Torah in reference to Jews. No bearing on Gentiles at all.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

There's also the issue about formally writing out laws.
Laws are enforcable when written and given to the people to be aware of.
Easily disproved with scripture:

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

No reference to scripture, pen and ink, or any such thing. The laws of God are not required to be in a book as He was written them on our hearts.

No one can just say, "God is a pencil", or, "well, God told me that adultery & porn are Fine".
We can all point to the verses where it's written out. & yes, people CAN argue/deny them all day long... but they're still written clearly despite human rebellion or interpretation and still stand.
Written with pen and ink proves nothing. It is the writing on our hearts that proves they are right.

It puts everyone on the "same page" (as it were) to know what God wants and doesn't want of us.
(outside our inner concience of course..
Rom 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom002.html#14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom002.html#15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
You disprove yourself with this scripture. The Gentiles did the things required in the Law without having the Law written down for them. This scripture shows your whole point to be inaccurate.
Jam 4:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam004.html#17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.
This scripture is completely off topic to be quite honest. God's Law is written on our hearts and minds. The verse from Hebrews shows that. Knowing something is sin does not require a book.
Our conscience goes hand in hand w/ God's word.
So what's being "worshipped" there?? :confused: :scratch:
What is from the Mind of God isn't worshipped, BUT HE HIMSELF IS.
If you elevate scripture to the level of necessity then it is worship of the book. You try and claim it is not all you like but even scripture proves that scripture is not necessary. The dangerous bibliolatry taking place around here is quite frightening to be honest.

Scriptures/bibles are what DEFINE the religion/God/ at the closest source. You can't claim to be a genuine Muslim while you reject the mandates of the Qu'ran/Koran & claim Jesus Christ is God.
No they do not define anything. They may explain but God cannot be defined in any human language. Every word we use will fall short. The Bible is NOT the closest source. Scripture says that creation speaks to his nature and has since it was made. I would say that creation is the closest source according to scripture.
These help set apart & define, again, it's NOT worship of the Book.
Then quit trying to prove the book is necessary. We have it and we should use it. To not do so would not be good stewardship but if it went away our faith would not be diminished. God's word is not bound by paper and ink. It is written on our hearts and minds and testified to by His creation. The book is an amazing tool and as we have it we darn sure should use it but it is not a requirement. I can put a nail into wood without a hammer but if I had a hammer and didn't use it I would be a complete idiot but that doesn't make the hammer a requirement.

In the end, we EITHER ACCEPT AND BELIEVE WHAT'S WRITTEN in the bible, or we don't. The Scriptures claim that Scripture is 1 way God chooses to relay Himself to mankind.
No! In the end we either accept Christ as God's son and confess to His resurrection because it is truth. Whether or not it is written does not change it's status as truth. The first church didn't have the Bible and they were Christians. Scripture is only one of the ways God reveals himself it is NOT the only way and as such is NOT required.

To deny that written fact, is to indirectly claim you reject the Bible's teachings about God. Therefore, you are stepping away from belief of that scripture to decide it's erroneous.
And when you claim it's in error, you are then putting yourself in the place of personally deciding God's truth.
Picking out which verses are TRUE and which are NOT.
:eek:
We become the authority on God and Truth when we deny scripture. (the same would go for self proclaimed Muslims who reject/deny teachings, laws or claims of the Qu'ran - to create their own separate personal beliefs of their god, Allah that contradict the written mandate of Islam).
You are drawing a false dilemma predicated on the assumption that scripture is the only way we can know God. The fist church did not have access to the scripture that we have today. The canon has changed through the years. We are not denying that scripture is one of the means by which God reveals himself but I do deny that it is the only way and scripture agrees with me on that point. It is our best tool and one we should use if we are to be good stewards but it is not required for us to be saved.

Please do a word study on "doctrine(s)" and "scripture(s)" before making such statements. :sigh:
I have and every time the Bible uses the word scripture it is a reference to the Torah and the Torah alone. If your point could be proven you would only succeed in proving the OT is necessary and not the NT. Doctrine does not equal written scripture by any stretch. The NT references "that which we have told you" when mentioning doctrine as well as what was written. There is no proof in scripture that scripture is required. Elevating scripture to the level of requirement means that there are other requirements than belief and confession. When the Bible tells me that I must confess with my mouth and believe in my heart, and read the Bible I will be convinced. When the paradox of the first church not having the Bible is resolved then I will be convinced. Until then I will use the best tool at my disposal, the Bible, to combat false doctrines of bibliolatry.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

In a sense, it is a stumbling block. Paul talked about how he needed the Law to know he was sinning. His reference was covetousness. Loving my enemies is an issue for me. It wouldn't be if I didn't know God wanted me to. I know this is what He wants because I read it in His Word.
I guess that whole thing about God's law being written on our hearts and minds has escaped you. We know God's law as referenced by it being written on our hearts and minds and as also proven by the reference to Gentiles following the law when they had not been told. We don't NEED the written word. We have it and should use it but it is not required.

Depending on what He is working on in us, some passages can be uncomfortable and, in a sense, a stumbling block. Thank God it is such, so that I can grow to be more the man He wants me to be.
The same can be said for the Holy Ghost working completely separately from scripture. I have been convicted of many a thing when I was either not reading the Bible on a regular basis or studying something completely different.

EDIT: I also will say again, that it is required for salvation. Whether we read it or it told to us, the message of the Gospel is God's Word.
And again Christ is God's Word and not scripture. To try and claim otherwise is bibliolatry. The first Christians didn't have the Bible so I guess they weren't saved since it is required for salvation according to you. In fact scripture wasn't canonized until 170 after Christ and then it was not finalized until much later and then it was revised even after that. So at the very least 170 years of Christians cannot possibly be saved according to your teaching.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Required for what? Salvation? No, it's certainly NOT required for salvation...

IT IS required to be believed as TRUTH OF THE LIVING GOD upon the teaching of it.
God has appointed teachers to teach His word as well. 1 Cor. 12-14.
And oddly enough when this verse was penned the only scripture was the Torah. Again not proving the Bible is required but proving that God's revelation to us is required. Yes the Bible is one way that God is revealed unto us but it is not the only way thereby disproving any claims that the Bible is necessary.

To deny it's central teachings, is to reject what God said one must believe in order to be born again (be His).
God won't come to someone with a gospel OTHER THAN what's already given by Him in our Bible. The 2 'revelations' will be in full agreement because they are from the same God.
God's revelation to us would have existed if the Bible had never been written. It is a source for us to learn and teach from. It is not required. If someone never heard of the Bible and had a dream of Christ on the cross and believed they would be saved. They could live their life from that point on and never see a Bible and still be a Christian. God writes his law on our hearts and minds according to scripture. And again the whole of creation testifies to his divine nature. Without the Bible we would still have His law and testimony to His nature.

The key is, what is it required FOR. As the earlier verse was quoted, Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.
(I also gave a list of other verses below claiming that scriptures are imperative).

The word of God is not required to be written as scripture on paper. See references to the law of God being written on hearts and minds. Remember that when all of those verses were penned the only scripture was the Torah. Again you could set about proving the Torah is necessary but you cannot prove that the NT or even the Bible as we know it is necessary. If you want we can go into canon issues as they are myriad.

[- DRA -]

2

(short post) I tell people don't place your whole faith and beliefs in a book.......

Accepting that the Bible is the inspired word of God doesn't necessarily mean that the book is the focus of our faith. Our faith is in God. His word furnishes us with what we need to serve and please Him. Without it, we are like the Israelites living during the period of the judges ... "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes (Judges 17:6 - NKJV)". While the Bible isn't our king, it does furnish us with the necessary knowlege to faithfully serve our king today.

:bow:

[Nadiine]

We do not NEED the scriptures. God is revealed in His creation.


We don't? Well perhaps you should tell GOD that, because for some Kooky reason, GOD'S SPIRIT DIRECTLY INSPIRED 40 AUTHORS TO PEN 66 BOOKS which HE seemed to think were important enough to preserve from ancient times.

You claimed I'm elevating scripture to where it's not supposed to be, but had you stopped to think that you're lowering it to a level it's not to be lowered to?

Pagans claim that Creation is by their gods & goddesses... they see deities behind creation... just not YHVH.
And how do you know God reveals HImself thru creation to everyone?
Maybe you read Romans 1 to know it... which is very helpful information to know isn't it? ;)

I posted many verses that show that scripture IS needed... again, needed for what? Salvation? No.
I would never make the claim that the Bible is mandatory to "be born again".

But God can and does use the scripture to lead us to salvation and teach us His will and principles. It will accomplish the purpose He sets for it.

Unless there's some misunderstanding here, I don't think your disagreement is ultimately with me, I stand behind the many verses that relay the importance of scripture by those who walked with Christ or eyewitnessed the acts of God.

[mont974x4]

I guess that whole thing about God's law being written on our hearts and minds has escaped you. We know God's law as referenced by it being written on our hearts and minds and as also proven by the reference to Gentiles following the law when they had not been told. We don't NEED the written word. We have it and should use it but it is not required.


The same can be said for the Holy Ghost working completely separately from scripture. I have been convicted of many a thing when I was either not reading the Bible on a regular basis or studying something completely different.


And again Christ is God's Word and not scripture. To try and claim otherwise is bibliolatry. The first Christians didn't have the Bible so I guess they weren't saved since it is required for salvation according to you. In fact scripture wasn't canonized until 170 after Christ and then it was not finalized until much later and then it was revised even after that. So at the very least 170 years of Christians cannot possibly be saved according to your teaching.


No it did not escape me that the law is written on our hearts. However, it means nothing without the Holy Spirit guiding us, softening our hearts, and opening our eyes and ears.

His Word is important and no claim to the contrary can change that. His Word has power and authority because of Him...because it's His.

YLT
Mat 4:4 But he answering said, `It hath been written, Not upon bread alone doth man live, but upon every word coming forth from the mouth of God.'
Mat 4:5 Then doth the Devil take him to the holy city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 and saith to him, `If Son thou art of God--cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.'
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him again, `It hath been written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'
Mat 4:8 Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Mat 4:9 and saith to him, `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go--Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Mat 4:11 Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.


Looking to Christs own example...Scritpure is absolutely necessary..for life itself and for a defense against the enemy.

It isn't heresy, it isn't any form of idolotry, it is rendering due respect to Him and His Word.


Think about this... how are people saved? Not the act of Christ, but how are they brought to the point of realizing the need to hear Him and follow Him as Lord and Savior? What happens to us when we neglect Him and His Word? When we don't take the time to spend in His Word?

Can we be taught and grow in other ways? Sure, He will use whatever means necessary. This in no way negates the importance of His Word.

[Nadiine]

No it did not escape me that the law is written on our hearts. However, it means nothing without the Holy Spirit guiding us, softening our hearts, and opening our eyes and ears.

His Word is important and no claim to the contrary can change that. His Word has power and authority because of Him...because it's His.

YLT
Mat 4:4 But he answering said, `It hath been written, Not upon bread alone doth man live, but upon every word coming forth from the mouth of God.'
Mat 4:5 Then doth the Devil take him to the holy city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 and saith to him, `If Son thou art of God--cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.'
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him again, `It hath been written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'
Mat 4:8 Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Mat 4:9 and saith to him, `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go--Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Mat 4:11 Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.


Looking to Christs own example...Scritpure is absolutely necessary..for life itself and for a defense against the enemy.

It isn't heresy, it isn't any form of idolotry, it is rendering due respect to Him and His Word.


Think about this... how are people saved? Not the act of Christ, but how are they brought to the point of realizing the need to hear Him and follow Him as Lord and Savior? What happens to us when we neglect Him and His Word? When we don't take the time to spend in His Word?

Can we be taught and grow in other ways? Sure, He will use whatever means necessary. This in no way negates the importance of His Word.

Exactly. Rep on way. :amen:

[MaidforHim]

I consider the Bible to be a love letter from God to me and every other person that ever has been or will be. It not only tells us what He expects of us, but also a little bit about Him. What pleases and displeases Him. How he warns, punishes and loves each and everyone of us and too many other facts for my human brain to simply memorize and pass on.

It is this Bible that tell us God wrote His Word in our Hearts.

Although God has written His word in our hearts, that does not mean we know His story. For example, the fact that Christ died for our sins, who He was, how He died and what the purpose was. Reading His story opens our eyes to what this all really means and what the salvation He offers means. Also what it means to deny it and turn away from Him. The word written on our hearts then helps to confirm the truth in this message. Sort of like putting a key into a lock.

It tells us who Christ is in more than one way. First giving us the foretelling of His coming in numerous prophecies, then telling us the facts about Him after He came so that we can see, and know, that Jesus Christ fulfilled all these prophecies and that He is who He said He was. Then again the word in our hearts confirms this truth, I guess I see the word that is written in our hearts as being synonymous with that "small still voice" the "Holy Spirit". I believe this is one of the ways God protects us from deception.

More than one person was told by God to record His message... Moses, John and Daniel were told to write down scripture. God used man like man uses a pen, to send us a message. That message is important enough for God to contain a warning - curse - about what will happen to those who change, add to or take away from His message. Seems to me God considers that message very important to protect it like that.

I believe the Bible to be 100% accurate, the Living Word of God. I also believe He left his signature on it for us.

At least that's my opinion.

I've shared these resources before and they have been such a help I hope nobody minds if I share them again. In regards to the importance and accuracy of the Bible there have been 3 major helps in my personal studies.

Bot of these are audio only...
The Bible in 24 hours, by Chuck Missler
you can hear it on the internet, streaming audio, prerecorded radio
http://www.khouse.org/6640_cat/learnthebiblein24hours/
Beyond Time & Space, also by Missler
http://www.khouse.org/6640_cat/technical/

Text only
THE SEAL OF GOD
IN CREATION AND THE WORD
An unanswerable challenge to an unbelieving world
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/efinck/GODSEAL.HTM#Page110
(particularly the last chapter)

The Trinity Our God is who we should be worshiping and since the Bible is His Word, a message from Him to all of us, it is of great importance IMO.

I guess the first thing that helped me realize this was The Word that God wrote in my heart ;)

[Nadiine]

God's revelation to us would have existed if the Bible had never been written. It is a source for us to learn and teach from. It is not required.

If someone never heard of the Bible and had a dream of Christ on the cross and believed they would be saved. They could live their life from that point on and never see a Bible and still be a Christian. God writes his law on our hearts and minds according to scripture. And again the whole of creation testifies to his divine nature. Without the Bible we would still have His law and testimony to His nature.


REQUIRED FOR WHAT? (once again)...

And, how do you know God's revelation [to everyone] exists outside the Bible?? Alot of what you're claiming here, is TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE which is where you're gleaning your information to debate here.
If it's not necessary, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

We obviously both agree it's needed for our teaching - so what is the point in claiming it's not necessary or needed or required?
There is ALOT we would not know if it weren't written for us (which is it's function & purpose).

Lets use your statements:

If God's revelation exists outside of the Bible (which it does), then the BIBLE WILL DIRECTLY REFLECT THE SAME TRUTH AND GOD, right?

So I ask, if it isn't needed or required, why does God even bother to call 40 authors to write it over a span of thousands of years?
I'm clueless as to why He even bothered with it all if it weren't required for something extremely IMPORTANT.

(Lastly, there are alot of previous points that I gave that aren't self-refuting... I was driving at a larger point by using the verses... that mainly God works CONGRUENTLY from our concience and other outside revelation which is ALSO in full agreement with His written word).
(but then, there's the issue of 'liberties'... one man's sin might not be another's when it falls into Christian liberty and weak faith...)

[- DRA -]

How are we to discern whether what we are reading and understand is the Holy Spirit or just our own human wisdom?


I use a simple two-step approach to study the Bible. I base it on two principles:
1.) Read and study a portion of Scripture and develop an understanding (see Nehemiah 8:8)
2.) Ensure that your understanding of a select portion of Scripture harmonizes with other Scriptures (see Matthew 4:5-7)

To read the Bible with man's wisdom is to misinterpret it and misunderstand it. Only the Holy Spirit can read the Bible to you correctly and only He can allow you to understand by telling you.

Consider how the Holy Spirit "read" to the Jews in Acts 2. It was through the words of the apostle Peter. Those same words have been recorded for us in the Bible. Therefore, when we "read" them, we should appreciate the understanding that the Holy Spirit gave to the Jews -- Jesus was both Lord and Christ (verse 36). And, once we accept the Spirit's involvement in giving us the inspired word, it elevates the level of reverence that we show for it.

... To know the difference between Man's Wisdom / Man's Conscience and the Holy Spirit's Wisdom and the Holy Spirit is just something we have to learn, with or without the Bible.

I fully believe and accept that God's word is inspired and able to completely furnish us with what we need to serve and please Him i.e. 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Therefore, it is where I go to discern between man's wisdom and God's e.g. 1 Cor. 1:17b - 2:16.

You cannot know it's the Holy Spirit instead of Human Conscience by reading the Bible yourself. Man's Wisdom counts for nothing. You know it's the Holy Spirit the same way you know it's the Holy Spirit teaching you from the Bible. You just learn to know the difference, period. With or without the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 discusses those who don't have a love for truth. Seeing that they are determined to have things their own way, God sends strong delusion. The result is that they believe what they want to believe. How can we avoid this mindset? Give the reverence to God's word that it is due. Either it does what it says it does, or it doesn't. There is NO middle ground.

I am going to suggest that we should be very cautious about the things that we think we "know" -- those things that are better felt than told -- the things that we have no scriptural basis for. Consider 1 Peter 4:11a. We are to speak as the words of God. God's revelation to mankind was completed many years ago i.e. James 1:21-25. Therefore, we should be able to go to God's word to support what we believe and teach.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

No it did not escape me that the law is written on our hearts. However, it means nothing without the Holy Spirit guiding us, softening our hearts, and opening our eyes and ears.

His Word is important and no claim to the contrary can change that. His Word has power and authority because of Him...because it's His.

YLT
Mat 4:4 But he answering said, `It hath been written, Not upon bread alone doth man live, but upon every word coming forth from the mouth of God.'
Mat 4:5 Then doth the Devil take him to the holy city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 and saith to him, `If Son thou art of God--cast thyself down, for it hath been written, that, His messengers He shall charge concerning thee, and on hands they shall bear thee up, that thou mayest not dash on a stone thy foot.'
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him again, `It hath been written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'
Mat 4:8 Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
Mat 4:9 and saith to him, `All these to thee I will give, if falling down thou mayest bow to me.'
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go--Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Mat 4:11 Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.


Looking to Christs own example...Scritpure is absolutely necessary..for life itself and for a defense against the enemy.

It isn't heresy, it isn't any form of idolotry, it is rendering due respect to Him and His Word.


Think about this... how are people saved? Not the act of Christ, but how are they brought to the point of realizing the need to hear Him and follow Him as Lord and Savior? What happens to us when we neglect Him and His Word? When we don't take the time to spend in His Word?

Can we be taught and grow in other ways? Sure, He will use whatever means necessary. This in no way negates the importance of His Word.

Once again. The Word is Christ and NOT scripture. The written word is an important tool but it is not required. Christ's teaching on the scripture would refer ONLY to the Torah since nothing else existed. It is an extra-Biblical teaching to require the Bible. To require it for salvation is heresy and that is not really debatable. Nowhere in scripture is scripture in any form said to be required for salvation.

Knowing God's word is important. But it is written on our hearts and minds and we have the Holy Spirit to guide us. If ever Bible up and went away tomorrow we would still be Christians and still be able to lead people to Christ without it. It is an ever important tool but not required. In fact we are free from all requirements except belief in Christ as God's Son and confession that God raised Him from the dead. That's all it takes to be saved. Nothing more and nothing less. Any further requirement dilutes Christ's work on the cross.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

REQUIRED FOR WHAT? (once again)...

And, how do you know God's revelation [to everyone] exists outside the Bible?? Alot of what you're claiming here, is TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE which is where you're gleaning your information to debate here.
If it's not necessary, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

We obviously both agree it's needed for our teaching - so what is the point in claiming it's not necessary or needed or required?
There is ALOT we would not know if it weren't written for us (which is it's function & purpose).

Lets use your statements:

If God's revelation exists outside of the Bible (which it does), then the BIBLE WILL DIRECTLY REFLECT THE SAME TRUTH AND GOD, right?

So I ask, if it isn't needed or required, why does God even bother to call 40 authors to write it over a span of thousands of years?
I'm clueless as to why He even bothered with it all if it weren't required for something extremely IMPORTANT.

(Lastly, there are alot of previous points that I gave that aren't self-refuting... I was driving at a larger point by using the verses... that mainly God works CONGRUENTLY from our concience and other outside revelation which is ALSO in full agreement with His written word).
(but then, there's the issue of 'liberties'... one man's sin might not be another's when it falls into Christian liberty and weak faith...)
I don't deny using scripture. I use scripture because it is God's message to us. But without it we would still receive His message. The most important tool we have? Yes! Something we should use daily? Yes! Required? Not a chance. God has provided creation to testify to His nature. He has provided his law written on our hearts and minds. He has provided us the Holy Ghost to guide us. Is it easier with a Bible? You bet it is and I study frequently. But to state the Bible is required is flat out false. God will reveal Himself without His written word when necessary. He will reveal Himself through His written word when necessary. All that is necessary is God revealing Himself. The method itself is not necessary.

You example proves that God's word is useful but God's word would revealed without scripture if scripture was taken from us. All that is necessary for Christians is God's law written by Him on hearts and minds, creation evidencing His nature, and our teacher the Holy Ghost. He can and does act through His written word but to require it places limitations on Him that we cannot place. His word will always be revealed whether by written word, divine revelation, miraculous happenings, and many things that we cannot conceive. His written word is our best tool during this time but it is by no means required.

The canon that we use wasn't even around until after the reformation. No canon for 170 years, no formal canon for over 300, and certainly no New Testament for the first 100 years. Following the logic that the Bible is required we have to ask what Bible is required. Is it the first canon? The canon our Catholic brethren use? The canon our Orthodox brethren use? The canon Luther wanted us to use? Which Bible is required? Show me through scripture which Bible is required.

And since we don't have the original manuscripts for most book we also need to discern which translation is required. So please proceed to prove to me using scripture which translation is required and which canon that translation needs to be.

[MaidforHim]

I don't deny using scripture. I use scripture because it is God's message to us. But without it we would still receive His message.

Then why would God bother to tell us to take His gospel to the 4 corners of the earth? To spread His word.

Of course you could be illiterate, hear the word of God from a missionary, accept Christ as your savior, and then learn from that missionary and the Holy Spirit... If that is what God has ordaned. But the missionary most likely got it to you using His Bible.

Then theres the possiblity of deception. God's given us messages and propecies to help avoid deception. Why? Because even with The Word written in our hearts deception is possible. The great deciever is out there as an imposter and deception is his goal. The Bible along with the Holy Spirit (word written in our hearts) are just 2 of the tools we giving to filter out deception.

These seems to me to be sort of a chicken/egg argument.

The Bible the map to finding Christ. No you don't have to invite the Bible to be your Lord and Savior, but then the Bible tells you about Jesus Christ who is the one you are to invite into your heart as your Lord and Savior for salvation. Of course Jesus is the Word...

And round we go again ;)

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Then why would God bother to tell us to take His gospel to the 4 corners of the earth? To spread His word.
And when he said that there was NO BIBLE. His instruction was to teach what he had taught. Paul taught without the Bible. Peter taught without the Bible. James taught without the Bible. All the men who wrote what we know as the Bible followed Christ's command WITHOUT the Bible.

God's revelation is required. The method in which it is delivered is not. Again, ad nauseum apparently, God's law is written on our hearts and minds, His creation testifies to His nature, and the Holy Ghost is our teacher. Does the Bible make our lives extremely easy? It certainly does. Is it required? Again, not a chance.

[RonnyRulz]

The Word is Christ and NOT scripture.


I would agree with you, but apparently I'm wrong to. Looks like it's both. Read this, it's Jesus talking:

Thy Word is a lamp unto our feet and a ilght unto our path.--Psalm cxix. 105.

Yes! My Word, the Scriptures. Read them, study them; store them in your hearts, use them as you use a lamp to guide your footsteps.
But remember, My children, My Word is more even than that. It is the Voice that speaks to your hearts, that inner consciousness that tells of Me.
It is the Voice that speaks to you intimately, personally, in this sacred evening time. It is even more than that. It is I your Lord and Friend.
"And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us." Truly a lamp to your feet, and a light to your path.

[mont974x4]

Paul, Peter, Jesus, et al all taught Scripture, God's Word, what we call the Bible today.....whether written or spoken His Word is necessary. The Holy Spirit speaks to our heart the Holy Word of God.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Paul, Peter, Jesus, et al all taught Scripture, God's Word, what we call the Bible today.....whether written or spoken His Word is necessary. The Holy Spirit speaks to our heart the Holy Word of God.

Christ is the Word and is always required. The Word of God is Christ and nothing more.

So what Bible is God's word? I want to know because if it is required then you should know which canon and which translation is required.

Nevermind that Paul taught what we know as scripture without having it at his hand through revelation. Thus showing that the Bible is not necessary. The method in which God's message is delivered is not required. All that is required is that the message be delivered.

[RonnyRulz]

I succeeded in gathering all the information I desired. I set out to create this thread to see the amount of Christians who worship their Bible and the amount who worship their God.

It's actually not what I expected. There's more for God than I thought there'd be. I'm, despite much disappointment in some people, actually impressed.

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by mont974x4

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ

The Bible is uniquely tied to Him. Whether the Holy Spirit leads us to Salvation through reading the Bible or from someone else telling us what it says..it is still His Word.

The logos is Christ it is NOT the Bible. The Word of God specifically refers to Christ. Citing John 1 in way proves that scripture is necessary. Which version of the Bible is uniquely tied to God? The one Luther wanted tossing out James and Revelation? The one the Catholics use? The one the Orthodox use? The "Protestant" Bible? Which one of these is uniquely tied to God?

It seems we have crossed paths once again.

While Jesus is the word (logos) in John 1:1, the word (logos) does NOT solely refer to Jesus. Consider Acts 1:1 -- "The former treatise [logos] have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach (KJV)." In this passage, "logos" refers to the gospel of Luke -- not to Jesus. See Strong's for further study.

The best translation is one that accurately reflects what the first-century disciples accepted as Scripture.

Questions:
Do you believe Isaiah 40:8? How about Mark 13:31?
Has God kept His promises?

Christ is the Word of God. Scripture is the words of God. Trying to place scripture into John 1 is technically called bibliolatry. Nowhere in scripture can you support scripture being necessary. In fact the NT church didn't have scripture save the Torah. The scripture that makes up our NT is letters written to the NT church. They certainly didn't have scripture as we know it. This proves very easily that the Bible is not necessary for salvation. All that is necessary is a belief in Christ as God's son and confession that God raised him from the dead.

No one is trying to say that the Scriptures = Christ. "Logos" doesn't always refer to Jesus. That's the point. To say otherwise it simply to deny the obvious for any Bible student that wants to check.

If we can trust the writing of the apostle Peter, we should regard the writings of the apostle Paul as Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:15-16). And, if we can trust the writing of the apostle Paul, we should regard the Gospel of Luke as Scripture (see 1 Timothy 5:18). I trust the first-century church had access to these books/epistles.

Isn't repentance also necessary for salvation i.e. Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30. What about baptism i.e. Romans 6:3-11? Can a person be saved before being freed from their sins (note Romans 6:7)?

Consider James 1:21-25. In that context, something is able to save our souls if we do what it says. What is able to do that?

You are concerned about "bibliolatry." I am concerned about the lack of respect I see for God's word. :eek:

[mont974x4]

DRA, well said.

I am saddened by by such blatant disregard for His Word.

Do we worship the Bible? no. Do we show it due respect as His authoritative Word? Absolutely

[- DRA -]

I succeeded in gathering all the information I desired. I set out to create this thread to see the amount of Christians who worship their Bible and the amount who worship their God.

It's actually not what I expected. There's more for God than I thought there'd be. I'm, despite much disappointment in some people, actually impressed.

Please count me as one of those who is "for God." And, being "for God" demands that I respect His word (1 Peter 4:11a, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

[RonnyRulz]

Please count me as one of those who is "for God." And, being "for God" demands that I respect His word (1 Peter 4:11a, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
I honestly didn't have the time to read EVERYONE's post, so most of the latter ones I missed.

I'm not counting individuals or keeping track, just gathering a general gist of everyone's heart, not necessarily their beliefs. If someone is on the side of "i love God" or something like that, regardless if they fervently defend it as something required, I'm counting that as for God. Respect for God's word is a good thing, and something I probably lack in my impetuous youth.

I didn't really read what you said, but I'm sure your for God, I know everyone's heart here is deep down inside a true love for God, regardless of anything. Afterall, who wouldn't love Jesus? :)

And Jesus did say that The Word is the scriptures as well as his own personal voice. So no doubt, the scriptures are the very Word of God Himself. And thus completely worthy of respect and honor.