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Charles YTK
30th October 2006, 09:15 AM
A fellow in the GT section posted this list of quotes from th eChurch fathers on the subject of the Eucharist (Eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus) and I would like to know if you agree or do you have problems with this? Any opinions. Th eChurch fathers see the Eucharist as being th emeans by which eternal life is transmitted to an individual. Faith alone is insuffecient to the task. You need this ritual.

I find this quote pretty strange.

The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord commanded to be taken at meal times and by all, we take even before daybreak in congregations… WE OFFER SACRIFICES FOR THE DEAD on their birthday anniversaries…. We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread should fall upon the ground… (The Crown 3:3-4)



Here are the Quotes:

Church Father's on the Eucharist. Know that many of them were Disciples of the Apostles..



St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)

I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to the Romans 7:3)

Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD; one ALTAR, as there is one bishop with the presbytery… (Letter to the Philadelphians 4:1)

They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)

St. Justin the Martyr (c. 100 - 165 A.D.)

We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [Baptism], and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH our blood and flesh is nourished, IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS. (First Apology, 66)

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachi [1:10-12]…It is of the SACRIFICES OFFERED TO HIM IN EVERY PLACE BY US, the Gentiles, that is, OF THE BREAD OF THE EUCHARIST AND LIKEWISE OF THE CUP OF THE EUCHARIST, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it. (Dialogue with Trypho, 41)

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 140 - 202 A.D.)

…He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, "THIS IS MY BODY." The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, HE CONFESSED TO BE HIS BLOOD.

He taught THE NEW SACRIFICE OF THE NEW COVENANT, of which Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, had signified beforehand: [quotes Mal 1:10-11]. By these words He makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; BUT THAT IN EVERY PLACE SACRIFICE WILL BE OFFERED TO HIM, and indeed, a pure one; for His name is glorified among the Gentiles. (Against Heresies 4:17:5)

But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given IS THE BODY OF THEIR LORD, and the cup HIS BLOOD, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator… How can they say that the flesh which has been nourished BY THE BODY OF THE LORD AND BY HIS BLOOD gives way to corruption and does not partake of life? …For as the bread from the earth, receiving the invocation of God, IS NO LONGER COMMON BREAD BUT THE EUCHARIST, consisting of two elements, earthly and heavenly… (Against Heresies 4:18:4-5)

If the BODY be not saved, then, in fact, neither did the Lord redeem us with His BLOOD; and neither is the cup of the EUCHARIST THE PARTAKING OF HIS BLOOD nor is the bread which we break THE PARTAKING OF HIS BODY…He has declared the cup, a part of creation, TO BE HIS OWN BLOOD, from which He causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, HE HAS ESTABLISHED AS HIS OWN BODY, from which He gives increase to our bodies.

When, therefore, the mixed cup and the baked bread receives the Word of God and BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, THE BODY OF CHRIST, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, WHICH IS ETERNAL LIFE -- flesh which is nourished BY THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD…receiving the Word of God, BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, WHICH IS THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST… (Against Heresies 5:2:2-3)

Tertullian (c. 155 - 250 A.D.)

Likewise, in regard to days of fast, many do not think they should be present at the SACRIFICIAL prayers, because their fast would be broken if they were to receive THE BODY OF THE LORD…THE BODY OF THE LORD HAVING BEEN RECEIVED AND RESERVED, each point is secured: both the participation IN THE SACRIFICE… (Prayer 19:1)

The flesh feeds on THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST, so that the SOUL TOO may fatten on God. (Resurrection of the Dead 8:3)

The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord commanded to be taken at meal times and by all, we take even before daybreak in congregations… WE OFFER SACRIFICES FOR THE DEAD on their birthday anniversaries…. We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread should fall upon the ground… (The Crown 3:3-4)

A woman, after the death of her husband, is bound not less firmly but even more so, not to marry another husband…Indeed, she prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, SHE OFFERS THE SACRIFICE. (Monogamy 10:1,4)


St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

And we ask that this Bread be given us daily, so that we who are in Christ and daily receive THE EUCHARIST AS THE FOOD OF SALVATION, may not, by falling into some more grievous sin and then in abstaining from communicating, be withheld from the heavenly Bread, and be separated from Christ's Body…

He Himself warns us, saying, "UNLESS YOU EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU." Therefore do we ask that our Bread, WHICH IS CHRIST, be given to us daily, so that we who abide and live in Christ may not withdraw from His sanctification and from His Body. (The Lord's Prayer 18)

Also in the priest Melchisedech we see THE SACRAMENT OF THE SACRIFICE OF THE LORD prefigured…The order certainly is that which comes from his [Mel's] sacrifice and which comes down from it: because Mel was a priest of the Most High God; because he offered bread; and because he blessed Abraham. And who is more a priest of the Most High God than our Lord Jesus Christ, who, WHEN HE OFFERED SACRIFICE TO GOD THE FATHER, OFFERED THE VERY SAME WHICH MELCHISEDECH HAD OFFERED, NAMELY BREAD AND WINE, WHICH IS IN FACT HIS BODY AND BLOOD! (Letters 63:4)

If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is Himself the High Priest of God the Father; AND IF HE OFFERED HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE TO THE FATHER; AND IF HE COMMANDED THAT THIS BE DONE IN COMMEMORATION OF HIMSELF -- then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, TRULY FUNCTIONS IN PLACE OF CHRIST. (Letters 63:14)

St. Athanasius (c. 295 - 373 A.D.) (who by the way stated what the 27 NT books were..)

You shall see the Levites bringing loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ….Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine -- and thus is His Body confected. (Sermon to the Newly Baptized, from Eutyches)

visionary
30th October 2006, 10:29 AM
I did not swallow that line of thinking. That is why I am messianic.

You know what Yeshua said.. John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.I know that you are crying and sighing over the abominations. Weeping for those lost in the dark. John 12:35
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.The Lord has given you a burden for those people. May He bless you with His Way of dealing with it.

Do you remember when the truth came in clarity for you? Was it when the darkness of the lies were presented or when the light of the truth? What lead you out of your darkness and into the light? God is the only one who can speak to the heart the truth. The truth shines like a bright light in the darkness. Only those who are afraid of the light will curse it and stay in darkness. Re-assure them that the truth will set them free.

Revealing the tentricles of darkness can sometimes get you caught up in its web. IT is a hard task, but the Lord promised us that His Way can shown by a little child. Getting caught up in controversies and webs of centuries of practioners of the dark arts of debates, deception, delusions and destructive mental gymnastics is not a good thing to exercise.

While it is good to be aware, wise a serpent and as innocent as doves, our focus is not to point to error but to truth. Let truth be sown in the heart. Can't do that while trying to pull out tares.

By the way, thank you for good collection of quotes, it reminds me of why it is such a powerful potion, seducing millions.

visionary
30th October 2006, 11:01 AM
Believing a lie2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Torah
30th October 2006, 11:04 AM
A fellow in the GT section posted this list of quotes from th eChurch fathers on the subject of the Eucharist (Eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus) and I would like to know if you agree or do you have problems with this? Any opinions. Th eChurch fathers see the Eucharist as being th emeans by which eternal life is transmitted to an individual. Faith alone is insuffecient to the task. You need this ritual.

I find this quote pretty strange.

The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord commanded to be taken at meal times and by all, we take even before daybreak in congregations… WE OFFER SACRIFICES FOR THE DEAD on their birthday anniversaries…. We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread should fall upon the ground… (The Crown 3:3-4)



Here are the Quotes:

Church Father's on the Eucharist. Know that many of them were Disciples of the Apostles..



St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)

I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to the Romans 7:3)

Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD; one ALTAR, as there is one bishop with the presbytery… (Letter to the Philadelphians 4:1)

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)

St. Justin the Martyr (c. 100 - 165 A.D.)

We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration , and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH our blood and flesh is nourished, IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS. (First Apology, 66)

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachi [1:10-12]…It is of the SACRIFICES OFFERED TO HIM IN EVERY PLACE BY US, the Gentiles, that is, OF THE BREAD OF THE EUCHARIST AND LIKEWISE OF THE CUP OF THE EUCHARIST, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it. (Dialogue with Trypho, 41)

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 140 - 202 A.D.)

…He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, "THIS IS MY BODY." The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, HE CONFESSED TO BE HIS BLOOD.

He taught THE NEW SACRIFICE OF THE NEW COVENANT, of which Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, had signified beforehand: [quotes Mal 1:10-11]. By these words He makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; BUT THAT IN EVERY PLACE SACRIFICE WILL BE OFFERED TO HIM, and indeed, a pure one; for His name is glorified among the Gentiles. (Against Heresies 4:17:5)

But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given IS THE BODY OF THEIR LORD, and the cup HIS BLOOD, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator… How can they say that the flesh which has been nourished BY THE BODY OF THE LORD AND BY HIS BLOOD gives way to corruption and does not partake of life? …For as the bread from the earth, receiving the invocation of God, IS NO LONGER COMMON BREAD BUT THE EUCHARIST, consisting of two elements, earthly and heavenly… (Against Heresies 4:18:4-5)

If the BODY be not saved, then, in fact, neither did the Lord redeem us with His BLOOD; and neither is the cup of the EUCHARIST THE PARTAKING OF HIS BLOOD nor is the bread which we break THE PARTAKING OF HIS BODY…He has declared the cup, a part of creation, TO BE HIS OWN BLOOD, from which He causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, HE HAS ESTABLISHED AS HIS OWN BODY, from which He gives increase to our bodies.

When, therefore, the mixed cup and the baked bread receives the Word of God and BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, THE BODY OF CHRIST, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, WHICH IS ETERNAL LIFE -- flesh which is nourished BY THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD…receiving the Word of God, BECOMES THE EUCHARIST, WHICH IS THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST… (Against Heresies 5:2:2-3)

Tertullian (c. 155 - 250 A.D.)

Likewise, in regard to days of fast, many do not think they should be present at the SACRIFICIAL prayers, because their fast would be broken if they were to receive THE BODY OF THE LORD…THE BODY OF THE LORD HAVING BEEN RECEIVED AND RESERVED, each point is secured: both the participation IN THE SACRIFICE… (Prayer 19:1)

The flesh feeds on THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST, so that the SOUL TOO may fatten on God. (Resurrection of the Dead 8:3)

The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord commanded to be taken at meal times and by all, we take even before daybreak in congregations… WE OFFER SACRIFICES FOR THE DEAD on their birthday anniversaries…. We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread should fall upon the ground… (The Crown 3:3-4)

A woman, after the death of her husband, is bound not less firmly but even more so, not to marry another husband…Indeed, she prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, SHE OFFERS THE SACRIFICE. (Monogamy 10:1,4)


St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

And we ask that this Bread be given us daily, so that we who are in Christ and daily receive THE EUCHARIST AS THE FOOD OF SALVATION, may not, by falling into some more grievous sin and then in abstaining from communicating, be withheld from the heavenly Bread, and be separated from Christ's Body…

He Himself warns us, saying, "UNLESS YOU EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YOU SHALL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU." Therefore do we ask that our Bread, WHICH IS CHRIST, be given to us daily, so that we who abide and live in Christ may not withdraw from His sanctification and from His Body. (The Lord's Prayer 18)

Also in the priest Melchisedech we see THE SACRAMENT OF THE SACRIFICE OF THE LORD prefigured…The order certainly is that which comes from his [Mel's] sacrifice and which comes down from it: because Mel was a priest of the Most High God; because he offered bread; and because he blessed Abraham. And who is more a priest of the Most High God than our Lord Jesus Christ, who, WHEN HE OFFERED SACRIFICE TO GOD THE FATHER, OFFERED THE VERY SAME WHICH MELCHISEDECH HAD OFFERED, NAMELY BREAD AND WINE, WHICH IS IN FACT HIS BODY AND BLOOD! (Letters 63:4)

If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is Himself the High Priest of God the Father; AND IF HE OFFERED HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE TO THE FATHER; AND IF HE COMMANDED THAT THIS BE DONE IN COMMEMORATION OF HIMSELF -- then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, TRULY FUNCTIONS IN PLACE OF CHRIST. (Letters 63:14)

St. Athanasius (c. 295 - 373 A.D.) (who by the way stated what the 27 NT books were..)

You shall see the Levites bringing loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ….Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine -- and thus is His Body confected. (Sermon to the Newly Baptized, from Eutyches)


The Church fathers see the Eucharist as being th emeans by which eternal life is transmitted to an individual. Faith alone is insuffecient to the task. You need this ritual.

And who holds this “KEY” to “eternal life”? The “Church” / Priest?

SO! what is being said here is this. You can not have salvation / eternal life unless you first become “part of this (Uncircumcised) group” by taking there “Eucharist”.


I find this quote pretty strange.

The Sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Lord commanded to be taken at[Passover]meal times and by all, we take even before daybreak in congregations… WE OFFER SACRIFICES FOR THE DEAD on their birthday anniversaries…. We take anxious care lest something of our Cup or Bread should fall upon the ground… (The Crown 3:3-4)


2tim4:3-4
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine [I](the sound doctrineat the time of this -writing was not the new Testament)[B].Instead, to suit their own desires, theywill gather around them a great number of teachers / [priest] to say what their itching earswant to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

visionary
30th October 2006, 03:35 PM
the sound doctrine at the time of this -writing was not the new TestamentThat is the key - sound doctrine is found in old testament. Without that ound doctrine foundation found in old testament, any spirit can mislead.

Torah
30th October 2006, 04:20 PM
That is the key - sound doctrine is found in old testament. Without that ound doctrine foundation found in old testament, any spirit can mislead.
Without that sound doctrine foundation found in old testament, any spirit can mislead.
“Bingo” 100% correct. Very well said “visionary”

visionary
31st October 2006, 10:22 AM
Without that sound doctrine foundation found in old testament, any spirit can mislead.
“Bingo” 100% correct. Very well said “visionary”Thanks for correcting my spelling, Torah. :thumbsup:

Torah
31st October 2006, 01:13 PM
Not me, visionary ,but Microsoft word, it does spell check even if I don’t want it to. ;) LOL

visionary
1st November 2006, 09:53 AM
When you enter the world like Paul did to bring them the good news, it truly is a different world than the one that you grew up in Yeshua with.

Just because they use the same name and some of the same stories with twists in them does not change the fact that it is not the hebrew version of the story.

Now that I have found the hebrew version, I have found all the collection of the greek and latin views and illustrations to be sadly lacking. In conversation with those who are totally into that stuff, I find myself better able to converse if we keep with biblical text and hebrew understanding. As the Lord said...John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.and we should be focused on introducing Him to the world, so that they may know Him. Let us focus on leading them to Yeshua. Taking away their insecurity blanket is not helping them.

Charles YTK
1st November 2006, 10:06 AM
When I read some of the arguements people present to validate for themselves these Churh fathers, it makes me wonder if the reason they could not find the Lord's body was because the disciples had taken it home and cannabilized him. After all he did say unless you eat my body and drink my blood you will never have eternal life.


If this was Eucharist that Yeshua was teaching them in John 6, which is pretty much mid-point in his ministry, then why is it that we do not see anyone practicing Eucharist WITH Yeshua. And why is it that the Jerusalem, council having this chance to establish what was necessary for salvation, never include Eucharist in the commandments to the Gentiles?

stone
1st November 2006, 03:06 PM
hey, isn't this obtaining salvation through works?

HadassahSukkot
1st November 2006, 03:27 PM
hey, isn't this obtaining salvation through works?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/Wanting%20Attention/shhh.gif

Charles YTK
1st November 2006, 04:22 PM
I would certainly say so. But usually they get around this by calling it a sacrifice, or a sacrament. It is still is something other than faith that is required to obtain eternal life in my point of view.

jgonz
2nd November 2006, 12:16 AM
This line of thought (Charles' OP on the Eucharist) really makes me sick to my stomach. I have an acquaintance who is sooooooo very Catholic she outdoes every other Catholic I've ever met (even my DH, who grew up Catholic, is amazed by how she is). Anyway, one day she sat me down and tried to pin me down on John 6 (especially vs 53- 56) and tried to force me to admit that she's right. :doh: The L-rd gave me the words to defend my faith and the truth of Torah Very well (I wish I could remember exactly what I said! lol) but she just turned off like a light switch.

I don't know... these people are so engrained in this tradition of man that they literally can't see the truth unless the L-rd shows them supernaturally.

Charles YTK
2nd November 2006, 01:29 AM
I think it was just something that happened because of two things:

The Temple was not available to them and so Passover needed to be reformed into something that could be observed in a different way, and , there was a loss of mature Hebraic leadership after 135 CE. But over just a few short years they developed an entirely new doctrine around this Eucharist and a language to tie it down in. In other words it was explained in mystical terms that only the initiated were able to understand. And that language remains today. And its terms are accepted because they are completely part of the entire doctrine.


When you look at this it is only a bishop or an assigned Presbyter who can perform the feat of changing the bread and wine and then these priests had the power to decide who was worthy of receiving the flesh and blood. This makes a man your eternal Judge rather than God. If you were found unworthy, you were damned to hell. This would open the door for total control over the people through a fear created by a spiritual manipulation and it opened the door for corruption. Could a defecient man buy the approval of the bishop and get his piece of Eucharist? This is not an accusation but is an observance of human nature.

Athaliamum
2nd November 2006, 03:11 AM
This Eucharist or communion as other denominations call it doesn't really seem to be even understood by those who do practice it. Again it is one of these things that people make mean something particular and make it "spiritual" when it really isn't. I mean there is a blessing for going to the toilet in Hebrew tradition, does this make that process a highly "spiritual" thing?

The idea of communion has some merit, a congregation of similar minds joining together in faith, the problem is the method is a lie. Things that can be helped are still not done. An example of this is when I visited a local church last week and for their communion they had normal yeast bread - it's obvious most just don't get it, but nor have they tried. There seems to be an "each to their own" mentality is this respect which I find rather strange. While individuals may have their own truths in some things, the eternal truths of G-d are not relative.

plum
2nd November 2006, 03:43 AM
When you look at this it is only a bishop or an assigned Presbyter who can perform the feat of changing the bread and wine and then these priests had the power to decide who was worthy of receiving the flesh and blood. This makes a man your eternal Judge rather than God. If you were found unworthy, you were damned to hell. This would open the door for total control over the people through a fear created by a spiritual manipulation and it opened the door for corruption. Could a defecient man buy the approval of the bishop and get his piece of Eucharist? This is not an accusation but is an observance of human nature.the power structure set up in the first few centuries of the "church" is quite genius if I do say so myself. Look how long it's lasted and how devoted the followers are to its institutionized authority.

Charles YTK
2nd November 2006, 09:29 AM
I would like to state here that there is nothing wrong with having communion in the sence of a covenant meal. It is perfectly in keeping with Jewish traditions. The covenant meal is usually leavened bread and wine and it comemorates the making of a covenant. And that is really what Yeshua was doing in the Passover, establishing the New covenant and a covenant memorial meal. That is different from speaking special prayers to turn the bread and wine into the Messiah and then eating him, comsuming blood and eating human flesh. The whole idea is based on a miss-undersanding of the words of messiah in their Hebraic context.

plum
2nd November 2006, 12:06 PM
Just a fun story:
A friend of mine told me of a good friend of hers who started being lead by HaShem to study the Tanakh in depth. Her eyes were opened and she realized that the communion meal should not include leavened bread. But the megachurch she goes to serves leavened bread so she brings her own! :thumbsup:

visionary
6th November 2006, 01:14 AM
Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

So much for Eucharist.

visionary
21st August 2007, 01:11 PM
bumped

ContentInHim
21st August 2007, 06:18 PM
Visionary - I'm glad you did bump this as it's been a real problem for me. One Orthodox fellow told me that the Eucharist is a bloody business. :sick: Cannibalism is what comes to my mind and that makes me sick also. But the verses in John seem to vindicate their belief.

Going to re-read the responses already posted but would love to read new responses! :wave:

GerTzedek
21st August 2007, 07:20 PM
I'm tired of replying to all the anti-Catholic threads. I'm not even going to bother correcting the misinformation about Catholic beliefs in presented in this thread. I think everyone knows who those are who have the agenda, and hopefully have enough wits about them to check things out for themselves and not trust the context to be correct as presented in this forum.

My suggestion is, if you have a question about eucharist, and whether it is resacrificing Christ or simply participating in His one and only sacrifice, go ask about it in the Catholic forum. If you wonder if receiving undeserved and unmerited grace through eucharist is somehow works, ask about it in the Catholic forum. In fact, if you have any questions or comments about Catholicism, make them in the Catholic forum.

But what are my suggestions worth? Clearly nothing.

ContraMundum
23rd August 2007, 09:52 AM
More confusion.

I offer anyone the free right to PM me if they want to get to the bottom of this from the perspective of the Jewish root and origin of the traditional and most ancient view of the Eucharist. I won't offer that for discussion here, but will answer PMs regarding it.

Ivy
23rd August 2007, 09:54 AM
In fact, if you have any questions or comments about Catholicism, make them in the Catholic forum.



'Zackly.

ContraMundum
23rd August 2007, 10:00 AM
In fact, if you have any questions or comments about Catholicism, make them in the Catholic forum.

That will be the day!

I don't think that's gonna happen. Let's watch, shall we?

visionary
23rd August 2007, 10:32 AM
Would you like this thread bumped up to debate forum?

GerTzedek
23rd August 2007, 06:33 PM
Would you like this thread bumped up to debate forum?
yes

ContraMundum
24th August 2007, 11:01 AM
Not that bumping it up to the debate forum will actually acheive anything.