A Baptist Seeking Your Advice

[wolfgirl084]

Hi,

I'm Michelle. I'm 21 and from SC. I was raised a Baptist, but now that I'm out on my own I've been looking at other churches. I've always been interested in Anglicanism. I thought this board might be a good place to learn some things about the Episcopal Church. I did have a couple of questions from the start that I wanted to ask.

First I'll give the position that I was always taught and then ask for the Episcopalian response. Ok.

I was brought up that to be saved all we had to do was ask God to forgive me of all my sins, for them to be washed away with the blood of Jesus, and for Jesus to live in my heart as my personal savior. I was then considered saved, or born again, by our church. After that we got baptized because it was something Jesus had done and we did it before we became members of the church, but it had nothing to do with salvation. I mean you could never be baptized and still be considered a born again Christian. We were not taught eternal salvation. We believed that it was possible to backslide far enough that you were no longer a Christian.

Does this gel at all with the Episcopalian belief or not? I mean I've heard all sorts of things about other churches. I've heard some believe that baptism is actually when your sins are forgiven, that without it you aren't saved, that it washes away original sin and all your sins. I've heard others say you need to ask for forgiviness of your sins and then be baptized, and others say you just need to ask for forgiviness. What is the Episcopalian stance on salvation? Do you ask God to forgive you of your sins and Jesus to be your personal savior? Then be baptized or what?

The other question has to do with the end times. We were taught that Jesus will come back to take all the Christians, both living and dead, to heaven. Then the tribulation will begin with the Anti-Christ and so forth. After 7 years of tribulation, Jesus will come back to Earth where the AC will be destroyed and Christ will set up a 1000 year long kingdom on Earth. After that Satan will be loosed for one last battle.

So what how do Episcopalians believe about the end times? Is what I mentioned up above how they believe or something different? I've heard some believe that all of that in Revelation is just symbolic. Others think Christians will be here during the Tribulation. So what about the Episcopal Church?

I'm must trying to figure out how other churches, especially the Episcopal Church since I'm interested in, view these couple of things that I was taught by the Baptists. Thanks. I look forward to your responses.

Sincerely,
Michelle

[karen freeinchristman]

Hi wolfgirl084, aka Michelle! :wave:

First of all, welcome to the Anglican forum, which we lovingly refer to as 'STR', which stands for Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. We use all 3 as our authority, with scripture the primary one.

Up above the threads you will find in the 'Sticky' section an outline of the Anglican faith. It would be good to read that.

I am in the Church of England, which is Anglican, but a different province to the ECUSA. There are people here that are from several different provinces, and we have many different styles of churchmanship with accompanying differences in theology, but the Anglican church is naturally diverse, and God willing, it will remain that way!

I've always been interested in Anglicanism.
Can you explain what it is that draws you to Anglicanism? (I'm curious!)

To answer some of your questions, I think that most Anglicans would probably say that we are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus - who he is and what his death, resurrection, and ascension has meant for us and our relationship with God. I would add, though, that we cannot say who is saved and who isn't saved. That is up to God. But this is what we have been shown through Jesus, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

In my view, baptism is a sacrament, and so it confers an inward grace through an outward sign (as we say). I am not convinced that to be saved, one has to be baptised. But I am convinced that we should be baptised if we are believers, and that we are able in good faith to baptise babies and children through the faith of the family and/or community that brings them to be baptised (later affirmed in confirmation).

So what how do Episcopalians believe about the end times?
We don't focus on the end times very much in the Anglican church, or at least not as far as I have been exposed. We believe Jesus will come again, and I personally believe there will be a time of tribulation.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

God leads us to where He wants us to be.

When you find the church God has intended you to be at...You'll know.

[cenimo]

The first time we vistied the church we now go to it happened to be the Sunday of the annual Bishop's visit (we didn't know that).

In his sermon that day, he made the remark that we've never been closer to the eschaton. I knew the word but had never heard it in church before, let alone in a sermon.

In our church library you'll find everything from books written by Jesuits to books by Mark Hitchcock.

As far as I know there's no 'official' end times doctrine, but don't be surprised to find end times believers.

[gtsecc]

In many ways the end times are now, with the Eucharist being the fulfillment of the wedding banquet. Most end time theology is not only bizarre and ungrounded; it is misleading and painful for many people. It is not something always taught by Christians, and is a harmful perversion that exists now because of well meaning but naive people with little to no theological training. It is the perfect example of what happens when the Bible is read unguided by the church.

[karen freeinchristman]

One of the best things about the Anglican Church is that it is not based on fear. Just a thought.

[Groce]

Welcome from a former Baptist. The reason I started looking was because of the fundamentalist, but on my search I found a lot of things about Baptist doctrine that I can no longer agree with. The is a lot of room in the AC differing beliefs, but I will be leaving here too eventually because of the liberals. One to far right one to far left.

[Groce]

About the end times, which I don't focus on that much, but there will not be an Earthly Kingdom as dispensationalist would have us belive. Amillennial.

[Aymn27]

In many ways the end times are now, with the Eucharist being the fulfillment of the wedding banquet. Most end time theology is not only bizarre and ungrounded; it is misleading and painful for many people. It is not something always taught by Christians, and is a harmful perversion that exists now because of well meaning but naive people with little to no theological training. It is the perfect example of what happens when the Bible is read unguided by the church.
you know glen, the pharisees and sadducees had it all figured out about the messiah too. Not saying you're wrong - I actually agree with you - but the Lord has a way of confounding the wise. Just b/c the ECFs said something doesn't mean God has to abide by their thoughts.

[gtsecc]

you know glen, the pharisees and sadducees had it all figured out about the messiah too. Not saying you're wrong - I actually agree with you - but the Lord has a way of confounding the wise. Just b/c the ECFs said something doesn't mean God has to abide by their thoughts.
Ah, but Christianity says that if something is a teaching and accepted by the whole church - that is God's plan revealed to us. And, I'll take that over some protestant fringe group's teaching. Seriously, does God reveal truth? Yes. How? When the church is with one voice. Please distinguish between the church making God do something, and God revealing something by speaking through the Church with one voice.

[SirTimothy]

I once heard a preacher say that he was 'not pre-millenialist, post-millenialist, or a-millenialist. I know it's bad grammar, but I'm a pro-millenialist. Whatever God wants to do, I'm all for it'

[JoshuaCh1v9]

I once heard a preacher say that he was 'not pre-millenialist, post-millenialist, or a-millenialist. I know it's bad grammar, but I'm a pro-millenialist. Whatever God wants to do, I'm all for it'


I like that:) :thumbsup:

[Wigglesworth]

I'm Michelle. I'm 21 and from SC. I was raised a Baptist, but now that I'm out on my own I've been looking at other churches. I've always been interested in Anglicanism. I thought this board might be a good place to learn some things about the Episcopal Church. I did have a couple of questions from the start that I wanted to ask.

Hi there! Welcome to STR.

I'm not Anglican, but I my first church was Fundamentalist, which I thought was the same as Baptist at the time, so we have walked on some common ground.

I started exploring Episcopal churches when I decided that it was important to be part of a church that upholds and maintains apostolic succession. Then, the eucharist became important as I developed a better understanding of it.

One thing Anglicans and Old Catholics have in common is the broad diversity of beliefs within them. You can probably find an Anglican church you can agree with, whatever you believe, if you look long enough.

:crossrc:

[Aymn27]

Ah, but Christianity says that if something is a teaching and accepted by the whole church - that is God's plan revealed to us. And, I'll take that over some protestant fringe group's teaching. Seriously, does God reveal truth? Yes. How? When the church is with one voice. Please distinguish between the church making God do something, and God revealing something by speaking through the Church with one voice.
But you see, the "whole" church doesn't accept it - AND it was not important enough to be declared in the Creeds - so who's to say that they're wrong? I don't think ANY of us know what exactly will happen - I highly doubt the rapture will - and I figure as long as I'm taking it one day at a time, I really don't have to worry about it. I certainly don't see that issue as a reason to draw the doctrinal lines....

[gtsecc]

But you see, the "whole" church doesn't accept it - AND it was not important enough to be declared in the Creeds - so who's to say that they're wrong? I don't think ANY of us know what exactly will happen - I highly doubt the rapture will - and I figure as long as I'm taking it one day at a time, I really don't have to worry about it. I certainly don't see that issue as a reason to draw the doctrinal lines....
Who doesn't?

[Aymn27]

Who doesn't?
baptists, assemblies of God, and I'm sure some others - are you saying they're not "the Church"?

[gtsecc]

But you see, the "whole" church doesn't accept it - AND it was not important enough to be declared in the Creeds - so who's to say that they're wrong? I don't think ANY of us know what exactly will happen - I highly doubt the rapture will - and I figure as long as I'm taking it one day at a time, I really don't have to worry about it. I certainly don't see that issue as a reason to draw the doctrinal lines....

baptists, assemblies of God, and I'm sure some others - are you saying they're not "the Church"?

Well, if they call upon the name of Christ they are part of the church. If they preach any of that weird stuff, they are simply teaching something the church has never taught.

Why?
Generally they simply don't know any better because they aren't taught much history in seminary.

Do they come across has having new revealed knowledge?
No - they look foolish.

Do they "help" their parishioners?
No. It isn't truth, and it hurts them.

Why do we Anglicans care?
It hurts all of Christianity when any part of it does something wrong.

Why do they read the Bible if they are going to preach an idea rejected by everyone else who has read it in the last 2,000 years? They are either impossibly ignorant, or narcissistic enough to think God has revealed some new truth to their little country parish, that all the rest of us are in the dark about.

[Simon_Templar]

Hi,

I'm Michelle. I'm 21 and from SC. I was raised a Baptist, but now that I'm out on my own I've been looking at other churches. I've always been interested in Anglicanism. I thought this board might be a good place to learn some things about the Episcopal Church. I did have a couple of questions from the start that I wanted to ask.

First I'll give the position that I was always taught and then ask for the Episcopalian response. Ok.

I was brought up that to be saved all we had to do was ask God to forgive me of all my sins, for them to be washed away with the blood of Jesus, and for Jesus to live in my heart as my personal savior. I was then considered saved, or born again, by our church. After that we got baptized because it was something Jesus had done and we did it before we became members of the church, but it had nothing to do with salvation. I mean you could never be baptized and still be considered a born again Christian. We were not taught eternal salvation. We believed that it was possible to backslide far enough that you were no longer a Christian.

Does this gel at all with the Episcopalian belief or not? I mean I've heard all sorts of things about other churches. I've heard some believe that baptism is actually when your sins are forgiven, that without it you aren't saved, that it washes away original sin and all your sins. I've heard others say you need to ask for forgiviness of your sins and then be baptized, and others say you just need to ask for forgiviness. What is the Episcopalian stance on salvation? Do you ask God to forgive you of your sins and Jesus to be your personal savior? Then be baptized or what?

The other question has to do with the end times. We were taught that Jesus will come back to take all the Christians, both living and dead, to heaven. Then the tribulation will begin with the Anti-Christ and so forth. After 7 years of tribulation, Jesus will come back to Earth where the AC will be destroyed and Christ will set up a 1000 year long kingdom on Earth. After that Satan will be loosed for one last battle.

So what how do Episcopalians believe about the end times? Is what I mentioned up above how they believe or something different? I've heard some believe that all of that in Revelation is just symbolic. Others think Christians will be here during the Tribulation. So what about the Episcopal Church?

I'm must trying to figure out how other churches, especially the Episcopal Church since I'm interested in, view these couple of things that I was taught by the Baptists. Thanks. I look forward to your responses.

Sincerely,
Michelle

Welcome :)

the first thing you will probably find is that there is a huge amount of variety among Anglicans. There are very liberal anglicand and very conservative anglicans, and moderate anglicans. There are "high church" anglicans, which means that their church services are very like Catholic services, and there are "Low church" anglicans which means their church services are usually evangelical in style and probably not that different than a baptist service.

I, like a number of others here, was not born into the Anglican church. I was born and raised non-denominational evangelical. I am very conservative, and evangelical. Though I do enjoy some high church elements as well :)

Anglicans generally believe that baptism is a necessary part of salvation. This does not, however, mean that we believe the unbaptized automaticly go to hell. Most of us would believe that if a person called on the name of Christ, and chose to serve God, but died before they could be baptized for some reason, they would be saved.
Most of us, however, would not count someone who refused to be baptized as an orthodox Christian.

One of the key differences in this issue, between Anglicans and most evangelicals including baptists, is that evangelicals tend to view salvation as a single event. Anglicans view salvation as involving two things, regeneration, and conversion.

Regeneration just means "born again". It refers to when our spirit is made a new creation by God, at that point our sins are washed away etc. The church has historically taught that regeneration occurs when you are baptized, and the Anglican church agrees with this.

Conversion refers to you making a choice to serve God.

Evangelicals usually believe that regeneration and conversion always happen at the same time. Infact they generally believe to be the same thing.
Anglicans generally don't.
Anglicans believe that they are seperate events and can happen at different times.

Anglicans practice infant baptism. Thus we believe that when a baby is baptized, he is regenerated (born again) spiritually. However the baby must still at some point make a choice to serve God with his life. Usually this occurs once the child has been taught and can understand, this is referred to as "confirmation".
So for infants born to christian familes, regeneration comes first, then conversion.

For adults who become christians, they chose to call upon the name of Jesus Christ, and serve God and then are baptized, so for adults conversion comes first, then regeneration.

You may find a few anglicans who believe in eternal salvation. The vast majority will not. Eternal salvation has never been the teaching of the historic church, and did not really come into being until the reformation and calvinism. Thus no anglican is required to believe it, and most don't.

This is connected to our views on regeneration and conversion. Anglicanism teaches that conversion is a life long process. Its often referred to as "sanctification". As long as we live we are undergoing transformation into the likeness of Jesus Christ. It is possible that we can reject this process, and go back on our conversion.

We believe that baptism (and communion) are more than just symbols. They are real spiritual events in which God works in us. We do not believe that they are works in which we earn anything, nor are they magical formulas that anyone can use. They are simply ways in which we interact with God through faith, and he works in us.

You will probably find that most Anglicans don't talk much or think much about end times prophecy at all. Most traditional churches, including the Anglicans, don't teach much about prophecy.
Anglicans believe that Jesus will return physically and that we will be physically resurrected or changed.

Most Anglicans do not believe there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. Most believe this is symbolic and that we will simply go to heaven.

You will likely not find many anglicans who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Many probably believe that those things happened during the roman empire. Many also may believe that there will be a future tribulation, but that christians will endure it.

I am somewhat of an oddity that I go in for end time prophecy and I'm a literal millenialist. I believe there will be a literal 1000 year rain. I, however, also do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture thoughl. I think the bible is pretty clear that the rapture happens after the tribulation.

I figure if prophecy is important enough for God to devote 1/3 of the bible to it, its probably worth studying ;)