Bad Witness

[karen freeinchristman]

This (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2426875,00.html) made me sigh... :sigh:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

This (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2426875,00.html) made me sigh... :sigh:


Doesn't surprise me in the sightest though.

I listen to Premier Christian Radio a lot and this guy has been running seminars on this wealth thing for ages.

He seems to focus on this 'welth transfer' thing where the assests of the sinful will be transferred to Christians (although it looks more as though the assets of the congregation are transferring to the good Reverend)

[Iosias]

This (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2426875,00.html) made me sigh... :sigh:

You are not the only one :sigh:

[Keturah]

Definitely makes me :sigh:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Well before we get too carried away with sighing, perhaps we should try crying.

Because I guaruntee that this guy will play to packed houses every time.

Just think. If we could harness what he is doing to attract all those people and then apply it to the true message of the Gospel, how great it would be.

Imagine a church service where you have to get there early in order to get a seat!!!

But our churches are nearly empty.

Meanwhile this guy tells packed houses of thousands that being rich and making money is all part of Gods plan for Christians.

[karen freeinchristman]

Just think. If we could harness what he is doing to attract all those people and then apply it to the true message of the Gospel, how great it would be.
That's just the trouble. The attractive thing about this guy's gospel is the same thing that attracts people to play the Lottery - the great hope of gaining financial wealth. How can we possibly 'harness' that?

[~Karin~]

you're right...the "wealth gospel" is nothing more than gambling. Nice to meet all of you, btw! :)

[RedneckAnglican]

We are about 2 miles away from John Hagees "Cornerstone" Church....don't try to drive around it a sunday morning...I'm not big on "Prosperity" Gospel either...make the Good LORD seem like an ATM...

[JasonV]

The Health and Wealth gospel is growing bigger every year in the US. And it seems to me that more and more Churches are catching on and using it to their advantage.

[Tenebrae]

Well before we get too carried away with sighing, perhaps we should try crying.

Because I guaruntee that this guy will play to packed houses every time.

Just think. If we could harness what he is doing to attract all those people and then apply it to the true message of the Gospel, how great it would be.

Imagine a church service where you have to get there early in order to get a seat!!!

But our churches are nearly empty.

Meanwhile this guy tells packed houses of thousands that being rich and making money is all part of Gods plan for Christians.The church I used to go to, was big on the name it and claim it thing. People were getting saved each week, usually between 10-30 people. However an equal amount were leaving, fed up with the abuses of the church. Some went on to other churches however many left the christian faith altogether, their picture of God had been hideous enough for them to come to the conclusion that "if that was God, they didnt want to know". Finding the middle ground is difficult, IMO, the fruit of many of these sorts of ministires appears great first glance, however is rotten to the core.

Just because a church is packed out doesnt mean its because of solidly based biblical teaching. Usually the doctrine is ear tickling fluff. I went to a womans conference run by one of the large penticostal churches in our city. The preaching was fluffy, and I went away feeling completely spiritually malnourished. That said, this conference was run as 2 conferences because it had grown so much

Our church has the distinction of being one of the fastest growing churches in auckland. One of the reasons why I think our church is growing exponetially is because we cater to all age groups. The 8.30am service is a treaditional liturgy service for those who like that sort of thing. The 10.45 service is a family service, based on a looser style and without the liturgy

The night service is more upbeat and contemporary and caters to the youth

[Caesario]

I don't know that its going to be to their advantage when its all said and done. To their condemnation, maybe.

[Tenebrae]

The Health and Wealth gospel is growing bigger every year in the US. And it seems to me that more and more Churches are catching on and using it to their advantage.
Of course.

My old church managed to extort $7million out of a congregation with promises of "Give and you will get anything you want"

[ChessCastle]

Just think. If we could harness what he is doing to attract all those people and then apply it to the true message of the Gospel, how great it would be.

Imagine a church service where you have to get there early in order to get a seat!!!

But our churches are nearly empty.



What he seems to be doing is appealing to greed, we shouldn't envy the number of people that fall into this, we should pray for them.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Of course.

My old church managed to extort $7million out of a congregation with promises of "Give and you will get anything you want"

What he seems to be doing is appealing to greed, we shouldn't envy the number of people that fall into this, we should pray for them.


But thats the problem we have isn't it?

We got a message that is a million million times better than that.

Money? Thats all he has to offer.

What does the true message of the Gospel offer?

That God loved the world so much that he let His own son be sacrificed so that anyone who believes in him will never die but will live forever.

In pure marketing terms that the best 'product' anyone could ever hope to have.

And whats more, in material terms, it's free.

And we seem to have totally lost the ability to put it accross.

And I admit that I'm as clueless as the next person.

[Groce]

Nickels and Noses is not what its about. Real church growth is about discipleship.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Nickels and Noses is not what its about. Real church growth is about discipleship.

Agreed.

But in order to do all that, you need bums in seats.

[karen freeinchristman]

Agreed.

But in order to do all that, you need bums in seats.
I see what Andy's getting at: lure them in with the false prosperity gospel, then once they've been hooked, we give 'em the real gospel, plus all the discipleship they can possibly handle! What a great plan! ^_^ :P:thumbsup:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

I see what Andy's getting at: lure them in with the false prosperity gospel, then once they've been hooked, we give 'em the real gospel, plus all the discipleship they can possibly handle! What a great plan! ^_^ :P:thumbsup:


:P :P :P :P :P

Thats NOT what I meant, and you well know it

*Throws water ballon at Karen*

I mean that I agree that real church growth comes from descipleship, but we have to look at getting our Evangelism right first or we'll have nobody in church to BE desciples.

[Finella]

I see what you're saying Andy, but the problem also is that the people who are attracted to this Health and Wealth thing are simply not in a place to "get" the Gospel that we "get." I don't think you can make the kind of transformation that needs to happen for these people happen -- it's something that comes with life experience and growth, all the while the healthy Gospel is being put forth, is putting a bug in their ears, and is there when they need it.

But it is sad, this kind of message -- I cringe when I flip by TBN (we got that network here in Philly a few years ago) and I hear those preachers begging for money and promising that it will be returned tenfold. I would hope that if God is an interventionist God he steps in and sets those "evangelists' " bums ablaze while giving money back to the widowed desperate elders who had no other hope and mailed their pensions to those @@$#@Ts.

[Tenebrae]

I see what Andy's getting at: lure them in with the false prosperity gospel, then once they've been hooked, we give 'em the real gospel, plus all the discipleship they can possibly handle! What a great plan! ^_^ :P:thumbsup:One of the coolest things about my current church

Is that good intellectual discourse and moves of the spirit arent mutally exclusive

[gtsecc]

More evidence that the protestant reformation had horrible consequnces for the faith.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

More evidence that the protestant reformation had horrible consequnces for the faith.

Not often that Glen and I agree, but this time I'm with him 100%

See what happens when you vandelise church doors?

[gtsecc]

Not often that Glen and I agree, but this time I'm with him 100%

See what happens when you vandelise church doors?
That is 2wice today ;)

[Aymn27]

More evidence that the protestant reformation had horrible consequnces for the faith.
I'm not so sure that this is any worse than Rome selling indulgences to build St. Peters - and I'm sure there are other abuses of the gospel as well.

[gtsecc]

Rome isn't doing that today; the televangelists are.

[bellantara]

a FOAF joined one of these "God wants you to be rich" churches. She got into financial difficulties, was about to have her utilities disconnected. When she called the church to ask for aid, she was told "if there wasn't sin in your life, you wouldn't have financial difficulties".(!) CLICK. :eek: Where do they get off??

[JasonV]

a FOAF joined one of these "God wants you to be rich" churches. She got into financial difficulties, was about to have her utilities disconnected. When she called the church to ask for aid, she was told "if there wasn't sin in your life, you wouldn't have financial difficulties".(!) CLICK. :eek: Where do they get off??

That does differentiate some of the Health and Wealth gospel churches. For example, the Mormons do teach that if you pay your 10% gross income tithing, that the windows of heaven will be opened to you (and you won't be burning in hell). BUT, they also give financial assistance for those who need the help.

I think that's the biggest difference between these two classes of "health and wealth" churches.

[Aymn27]

Rome isn't doing that today; the televangelists are.
Well actually..it still costs money for mass for the dead...

[gtsecc]

Well actually..it still costs money for mass for the dead...
Really?
Same for an annulment - $1,000.
Speaking of masses for the dead - is anyone going to one Nov. 2?

[JoshuaCh1v9]

That is 2wice today ;)

There could yet be hopr for church unity after all.:thumbsup:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

That does differentiate some of the Health and Wealth gospel churches. For example, the Mormons do teach that if you pay your 10% gross income tithing, that the windows of heaven will be opened to you (and you won't be burning in hell). BUT, they also give financial assistance for those who need the help.

I think that's the biggest difference between these two classes of "health and wealth" churches.

yea but tithing is something that is standard accross most churches. Not enforced, but encouraged.

Thare is a big difference between tithing and being told that God wants Christians to be rich, which is totally contrary to what Jesus taught.

[Tenebrae]

More evidence that the protestant reformation had horrible consequnces for the faith.The "new apostolic reformation" is having hideous impact on the body of Christ

A whole new generation of embittered and inoculated against the gospel backsliders

[Aymn27]

Really?
Same for an annulment - $1,000.
Speaking of masses for the dead - is anyone going to one Nov. 2?
It's supposed to be a "donation"..huh..but don't cough up the money and see if grandpa makes the list on the souls in purgatory that will be released with another 263 masses and 35 hail marys....I think not...

[karen freeinchristman]

The "new apostolic reformation" is having hideous impact on the body of Christ

A whole new generation of embittered and inoculated against the gospel backsliders
Can you please explain what you mean by this? I'm having a bad brain day. I just can't understand what you are referring to here. :sorry:

[Tenebrae]

Can you please explain what you mean by this? I'm having a bad brain day. I just can't understand what you are referring to here. :sorry:
Its a movement that is hitting penticostal churches mainly, basically the idea that the office of the apostle has been restored to the church and in many cases the 'apostle' becomes the middle man between the people and God

articles here (http://www.discernment.org/apostolic.htm)

here (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel3.html), here (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Erseaborn/New_Apostolic_Reformation.html)and here (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html)

Also cultwatch (http://www.cultwatch.com)has some info and the super apostles thing which is also a part of this

[karen freeinchristman]

Its a movement that is hitting penticostal churches mainly, basically the idea that the office of the apostle has been restored to the church and in many cases the 'apostle' becomes the middle man between the people and God

articles here (http://www.discernment.org/apostolic.htm)

here (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel3.html), here (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Erseaborn/New_Apostolic_Reformation.html)and here (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newapostolic.html)

Also cultwatch (http://www.cultwatch.com)has some info and the super apostles thing which is also a part of this
Those are interesting links; thanks, wizeone!

[RedneckAnglican]

very interesting....very interesting indeed....

[Tenebrae]

Its not reformation as in like the protestant reformation, but more like the stuff ups moments of the church being repeated

[kiwimac]

I really dislike the whole "Prosperity Gospel" movement, it makes people who are poor feel like failures and the rich imagine they are the special recipient's of God's grace.

Perhaps they should read John's letters some time?