Ritual

[Gideon4God]

I don't know about you guys but I'm getting sick of the Ritual worship found in the Orthodox Church.  Don' t get me wrong I dig what the Church teachings, but there are so many rules to follow.  Bow to this, cross yourself 3x at this point but not at this point...  I think I'm in ritual overload. 

Has this happened to anyone else here? :eek: :cry: :sorry: :hug: :confused:

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL, no but I can see how that can get annoying.. hee hee!

Take it easy, don't get caught up in rituals.. that won't bring you any closer to God. Worship him in spirit and in truth..that is what can bring you closer to him and by the way..probably save your soul more so than bowing to this, and crossing yourself this many times.. etc.. LOL!

Since you are Orthodox, why not discuss this with your priest.. he may be able to shed some more light on the issue for you.

Missy

[Gideon4God]

I'm glad you are able to make light of my situation.

[MissytheButterfly]

Oh Gideon come on.. I didn't mean it that way.. don't take anything I say as a personal issue.

I am just saying not to get bogged down by ritual. I mean you are not unlearned, I am sure you know that one's salvation is not based on rituals so why do you make this an issue for yourself ? If you are absolutely positive about your faith as an Orthodox Christian then you need to realize and understand that is part of your faith.. yes tedious as it might be that's part of it.

This is why I suggested that you talk to your priest. He may be able to shed a better perspective on the situation than anyone since I am sure he understands clearly the purpose your faith has for such rituals and it may be a comfort to you hearing him express the spiritual meaning behind your ritual practices..

So please don't think I was making fun.. I didn't mean it that way at all.

Missy

[Gideon4God]

No, I seriously meant it. I'm glad you can make light of my situation. It helps...it really does.

[MissytheButterfly]

OHHHHHHH...LOL! I am sorry.. I thought you meant you thought I was making fun of you.. sorry..

Anyway, I was wondering what specific rituals are becoming overwhelming in your faith ? And do you absolutely have to participate in them in order to be a part of your faith ? I know general info about the Orthodox Church. I know more about the Catholic faith..but I do know the basics of Orthodox Christianity that's why I am wondering do you absolutely always have to do these particular rituals you mean ?

Missy

[Gideon4God]

I came from an Anglican background were ritual wasn't as important as in the Orthodox Church. I just keep asking myself why? What do we get out of it and what does God get out of it?

[CopticOrthodox]

In Orthodoxy we worship God withour bodies as well as our minds. All the little details like the inscense and the candles may seem trivial, but if you go to another Church and miss them, you might notice how much all the little details add up to give you the feeling of the Church being rasied to heaven to worship with the saints and angels during the Divine Liturgy. All the bowing and prostrations help teach us to humble ourselves towards God, and to give Him the proper reverence. When the Holy Spirit decends and changes the bread and whine into the Body and Blood, we have to have our heads bowed at least, we dare not look upon that great mystery. If we were approaching a temporal king we would bow our heads in reverence, how much more when we beg the intercessions of the eternal King? Prayer makes petition and thanksgiving before God with our minds and our spirits. Fasting does the same thing except with our bodies and our spirits. Don't get to hung up on bowing at the right time and making the right motions when you come into the Church, etc., just slowly ease into things and do things little by little until they become natural and apart of you. And remember, there's no set way to do a lot of stuff. There's no rule on the exact reverence to make when you enter a Church, or exactly how and when to approach icons, a lot of it is just popular theology running along the theology of the Church, and some of it is even wrong, such as making the sign of the cross before receiving Communion. Every motion is not set out like with the Catholics, there's freedom, so don't feel like you absolutely have to do certain things a certain way just because that's what's popular where you are. The subjection of the body through kneeling and bowing should help you to reverence God in spirit, not just be an outward act, but an act that helps your mindset. If it's just an outward act, remember that it's the reverence in your heart that counts with God, and take it easy on the physical jestures until they become more natural to you slowly.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 04:17 PM Gideon4God said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=746198#post746198)

I came from an Anglican background were ritual wasn't as important as in the Orthodox Church. I just keep asking myself why? What do we get out of it and what does God get out of it?



Hmmm, well I don't mean to be smart.. but I don't see what God get's out of it either besides maybe he's please one has reverance for him sort of like in the Old Testament when they made good smelling sacrifices to God and he enjoyed the smells.. other than that.. I don't see.. since the bible is clear on getting caught up in things that don't matter isn't relevant to one's salvation. What matters is that the heart has been circumcised, acceptance of Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah, and living according to God's word.

So whether you light a candle, genuflect (sp), or rub an image of St. Peter isn't going to get you into heaven.. so frankly I don't see the big deal with all of that, but if that's one's method as long as they realize what REALLY important, it's probably not a terrible things to engage in but unfortunately man has more of a tendency to get caught up in things of that nature than not to..  

But for some, they feel ritual brings them closer to their walk in God. I can't judge those people.. all I can say is that I am glad I don't have to do any of that to be close to my master. But hey...to each his own.

Missy

[isshinwhat]

Take it easy, don't get caught up in rituals.. that won't bring you any closer to God.

I don't know about you guys but I'm getting sick of the Ritual worship found in the Orthodox Church.

Gideon, it is statements like these that show a misunderstanding of what the Liturgy's proper role in one's spiritual life is. In the Divine Liturgies that our Churches celebrate, we come as close to God as anyone can possibly come during this life. It becomes tedious only if we forget where it is we are when we attend the Eucharistic celebration. We are in the very presence of Jesus, our God. We are at the Lamb's Supper, and at that meal we dine with all of the Angels and Saints as we share Communion with God. Participation in the Liturgy is stepping into the living Church's very life, which is Christ's life. In the Liturgy we live the Gospel, we share in Christ's Last Supper, we celebrate the martyrs and fathers of our faith, and we watch others become reborn into our family; God's family. The words of the Bible never change, and yet we can always learn from it, if we are open. Liturgy is the same way. In the Divine Liturgy we participate in the life that the Bible bears witness to. I will pray that God's grace is poured out on you, and that your understanding increases, as well. I ask that you pray the same for me. It is difficult to keep our Faith in perspective, and I have been struggling as of late, too... At least I know I am in good company.

May the prayers of the Blessed Virgin give you strength, and may the Holy Spirit be your constant companion.

Christ be with you, Gideon.

Neal

[MissytheButterfly]

Neal, I just gave my opinion. And I have an understanding of rituals and the fact remains they aren't going to get you in heaven period. I don't care if you want to light ten thousand candles and eat 20 million communion wafers or genuflect everytime your knee gives out.. that's your business..

I don't have the issue, Gideon does.. so address what he is asking, not your critique of what I think because I don't have a problem, my faith is not based on man-made rituals...

I gave my opinion one can take it or leave it.

Missy

[isshinwhat]

I don't have the issue, Gideon does.. so address what he is asking, not your critique of what I think because I don't have a problem, my faith is not based on man-made rituals...


My response addressed the fact that for a Christian, these "man-made rituals" in fact bring us into direct contact with God. Many people have the same (mis)understanding of Liturgical principles as you, and I was afraid that might be what had happened to our friend, Gideon. To quote my last post, "In the Divine Liturgies that our Churches celebrate, we come as close to God as anyone can possibly come during this life... we participate in the life that the Bible bears witness to." That is the crux of my response, and it is my answer to Gideon's original question, "I don't know about you guys but I'm getting sick of the Ritual worship... Has this happened to anyone else here?" I realize that my response is in direct conflict with your opinion, Missy, but my post was made with the intention of answering Gideon's question, not addressing your posts. Not everything that is posted is meant to start an argument.

Neal

[CopticOrthodox]

Yesterday at 06:50 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=747126#post747126)

Neal, I just gave my opinion. And I have an understanding of rituals and the fact remains they aren't going to get you in heaven period. I don't care if you want to light ten thousand candles and eat 20 million communion wafers or genuflect everytime your knee gives out.. that's your business..

I don't have the issue, Gideon does.. so address what he is asking, not your critique of what I think because I don't have a problem, my faith is not based on man-made rituals...

I gave my opinion one can take it or leave it.

Missy




I don't want to be argumentative, but I hope you aren't implying that we don't need to partake of the precious Body and Blood in order to have eternal life?

As for the other things, kneeling down won't earn us eternal salvation.  But if we stand before God in Church, and know that the Holy Spirit is decending and trasfering the bread and wine into the Body and Blood, and we don't want to kneel before this great miracle, before the presense and working of God, then maybe we need to question what our relationship with God is like that we don't feel this awe and respect.  Prostrations during private prayers are very useful in inspiring a sense of worship, and helping to humble oursevles and keep our prayers focused.  While I don't wish to judge, and perhaps am wrong (I only wish to present a thought, not an absolute), of the people who do not feel benefit from these time tested spiritual exercises, many of the probably do not benefit because they have not yet reached a level of warfare where they feel the deep need for their aid.

[MissytheButterfly]

Yesterday at 03:40 AM isshinwhat said this in Post #12 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=747577#post747577)



My response addressed the fact that for a Christian, these "man-made rituals" in fact bring us into direct contact with God. Many people have the same (mis)understanding of Liturgical principles as you, and I was afraid that might be what had happened to our friend, Gideon. To quote my last post, "In the Divine Liturgies that our Churches celebrate, we come as close to God as anyone can possibly come during this life... we participate in the life that the Bible bears witness to." That is the crux of my response, and it is my answer to Gideon's original question, "I don't know about you guys but I'm getting sick of the Ritual worship... Has this happened to anyone else here?" I realize that my response is in direct conflict with your opinion, Missy, but my post was made with the intention of answering Gideon's question, not addressing your posts. Not everything that is posted is meant to start an argument.

Neal



 :rolleyes:  Whatever..

Missy

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 02:44 AM CopticOrthodox said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=749706#post749706)




I don't want to be argumentative, but I hope you aren't implying that we don't need to partake of the precious Body and Blood in order to have eternal life?

As for the other things, kneeling down won't earn us eternal salvation.  But if we stand before God in Church, and know that the Holy Spirit is decending and trasfering the bread and wine into the Body and Blood, and we don't want to kneel before this great miracle, before the presense and working of God, then maybe we need to question what our relationship with God is like that we don't feel this awe and respect.  Prostrations during private prayers are very useful in inspiring a sense of worship, and helping to humble oursevles and keep our prayers focused.  While I don't wish to judge, and perhaps am wrong (I only wish to present a thought, not an absolute), of the people who do not feel benefit from these time tested spiritual exercises, many of the probably do not benefit because they have not yet reached a level of warfare where they feel the deep need for their aid.




I don't imply anything.. I said exactly what I meant. You can take it anyway you want.. but you already know that..

Missy

[CopticOrthodox]

I don't want to take it any way I want, I want to know what you meant, if we're just going to take things the way we want to, what's the point in talking to each other? I didn't know what you meant, you if you meant that receiving Communion won't lead to salvation if there isn't a relationship with God, and basis in faith, which would be fine, or if you meant that Communion is not the Body and Blood, and does not give real and power full grace, and is not necessary for salvation, which would be a thought that certainly does not belong in an Orthodox forum, so I asked rather than jumping to conclusions.

[MissytheButterfly]

No offense, but I am dropping it.. because nothing good is going to come of this and I don't think Gideon posted this thread for you and I to debate about my religious beliefs.. the issue is about Gideon and his issue with rituals in the Orthodox Church. I answered his post in the way I decided to which is my right.. if you don't agree, you don't agree which is your right.

God bless,
Missy

[isshinwhat]

 

[jukesk9]

Okay everyone. Let's take a deep breath. There will be no debate in this forum as to whether or not Communion is the Body and Blood of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. It is. And that's not open for debate, not in the Orthodox forum (or in the OBOB for that matter). Anyway, Communion is NOT a man made ritual. As far as this forum goes, it was instituted by Christ Himself. If anyone has problems with that, please refrain from posting in this forum.

[MissytheButterfly]

First of all I didn't say what I thought of the Orthodox view of Communion.. period. I said I said exactly what I meant as I ALWAYS do.

Missy

[jukesk9]

Just a reminder, Missy.

[MissytheButterfly]

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Hmmm, I hope Gideon didn't leave because of this off topic stuff..

Gideon did you get a chance to speak with your priest concering this matter ? Sometimes our religious leaders can shed a TREMENDOUS amount of clarity on our faiths.. I would be interest in learning what your priest stated if you got a chance to speak with him.

Missy

[CopticOrthodox]

Gideon, here are some words from H.H. Pope Shenouda in his book "Characteristics of the Spiritual Path", it's not the most appropriate book for the subject, but it's the one I'm reading now:

p 148: "Here we would like to explain the true spiritual meaning of a metanoia or prostration. In the metanoia the person makes a prostration, he bows down and his head touches the ground, that is, the dust. This is the external apparent work. But there is an inner work which should accompany the bowing down of the body. The person should bow down his soul from within in contrition so as to abandon its haughtiness, as David the Prophet said: "My soul clings to the dust" (Ps. 119:25). Someone said to one of the Fathers: "Sometimes I make a metanoia before my brother apologizin gto him but he dos not accept it">
The Father answered: "It is because you did it in haughtiness". This means that the body bowed down whilst the sould remained in its haughtiness and did not reach the dust."

A reminder that the acts can be empty, and that we need to learn to make them full.

You might want to look at the chapter "Learning from Rites and Rituals" in H.H.'s book Dicipleship, available at: http://www.coptnet.com/books/disciple.pdf or http://www.coptnet.com/Pope-Books/disciple/index.htm . Many of his other books are also available from http://www.coptnet.com/Pope.htm

[MissytheButterfly]

Gideon.. good luck with all of this..

Missy

[CopticOrthodox]

The Body and the Spirit by Pope Shenouda in Characteristics of the Spiritual Path:

He who is faithful in virtues practised by the body is elevated to virtues of the spirit. He who is faithful in controlling the body to abstain from food, God will entrust him with controlling the spirit to abstain from sins. He constrains his toungue to abstain from idle talk, controls his mind to abstain from evil thoughts, and restrains his heart from lust. But he who is not faithful in abstaining from food--and this is a little things which does not need much effort--how then can he reach abstinence of spirit? Thus said one of the saints:
"Through stillness of body we acquire stillness of soul." Stillness of soul is a great thing which we do not reach unless we are faithful in observing stillness of body. This means that the body should not be engaged in wandering from one subject to another, and the senses should be restrained from vain hearing, looking, touching and smelling.
Also through solemnity of body we attain solemnity of soul. And through faithfulness in humility of the body we acquire humility of the soul. He who prays with solemnity fo body; standing in reverence, liftin his eyes, preserving his senses and his motions, kneeling atthe time of kneeling, prostrating at the time fo prostration, if he does all these with fidelity, there is no doubt that God will endow him with solemnity of spirit and solemnity of intellect. He who is faithful in his prostrations God will grand himt o worhsip in Spirit and in trouth. There is no doubt that he who says hte word Agios (Holy) whilst bowing down in faith engenders solemnity in his heart.
Thus we benefit from taking off oru shoes when we enter or worship before the Sanctuary. These are physical gestures but if they are performed with loyalty and in faith they transfer the solemnity fo the body to the spirit, and the spirit will also worship solemnly. This is due to the correlation of the body and the spirit.
Thus if we are faithful in our physical temple, it will become a temple for God. And if we are faithful in the material body of Lord will entrust us with the illuminated spirtual body in the Day of Resurrection (1Cor15:44). If we are faithful in material mattters in general God will entrust us wit the spiritual matters. Let us take prayer as an example...