Church a Burden? [Archive] - Christian Forums

Starcrystal

28th October 2006, 09:23 AM

No, this is not an anti church topic!

I am just wondering if there are any others out there who find going to church a burden on their schedual? Or is my family the only one? (Can't be!)

I'm not saying that you don't enjoy church services or get involved. We do, when we go.
Recently we've been more regular because we found a church only 7 miles away as compared to the other one we went to before that was 23 miles on back roads (about 45 minutes one way).

Here's the issue: people work 5 -6 days a week. In our case my wife is gone 11 - 12 hours a day, and I work what hours I can cutting wood, building, and then taking care of our 11 month old while my wifes working. She is dog tired most of the time. So am I. Often I'll work on our land longer Saturday than weekdays because she's home with the baby. And sometimes neighbors want us to do things with them or go to some place. So there goes saturday.

Then Sunday comes. We're burnt out. But, have to get up by 8 AM, get ready, get baby ready, be out the door at 9:40 to be to Sunday school/bible study. Services go from 10 - 12, then that's the day we do laundry so are not home till 2. Then back to church for evening services. (5:30 - 7:30 PM). When we went to the church further away it was even more hours, especially when we rode with the neighbor who always went out to eat after church. Gone 9:30 Am till 4:00 PM. The day was shot.

Again, we enjoyed services but had no rest. And I am not one who believes you HAVE to be in church regularly to serve God. I'd like to but there is often little time. Or I'll go but Lisa stays home because she's too tired. The other day she almost fell asleep driving to work and caught herself almost going in a ditch. that's a concern.
But if she doesn't work there's no money. If I don't work on our land there's no wood for heat, the leaves and brush will pile up making a fire hazard, and our son won't have a room for his own, or a bathroom to potty train in the next 6 months when he'll probably start needing those things. the garden needs work or we won't be able to supplement some of our food. (Though that season is pretty much over now except tilling in compost for the winter and some fence repair that needs done.)

I'm sure if others experience the same things there might be different circumstances. But what it boiled down to is that church is the one thing at the end of the week that becomes burdensome - at least to get ready, get out the door, and just be away from the house for those hours.... even if we are blessed by the message or move of the Spirit while at church.
Wednesday night Bible study is out. I have no car to go, wife is at work during those hours, and neighbors go to the more distant church. I tried going with them once but it totally messed up my sons sleep schedual and he wailed for some time after we got home.

I know, the solution would be for God to change the earths rotation so that we have 30 hour days! ;)
Or give us income oportunities like we had before where we can work from home and one of us does not have to wear themselves out driving to and from a job and working 8 hours.

Anyone else ever feel like going to church can be a burden?

christianmomof3

28th October 2006, 09:53 AM

When going to church meetings feels like a burden I remember Romans 12:1 ...present your bodies a living sacrifice...
I am not sure if that is the correct application of that verse, but when I do present my body by going to a church meeting - even and probably especially when I don't feel like it - I am rewarded by the Lord with enjoyment of Him with His Body.
It can be difficult to work with a baby's schedule - been there, done that - mine are now 4, 7 and 13. :)
One couple in our church who have a 5 yo and 18 month old have just decided to trade off who will go to the Friday night home meeting and one of them will stay home with the baby because it is too difficult for them to bring him. I think that is a resonable solution for them.
When my younger two were babies, the home meetings were usually at our house, so it was easier to deal with the babies. There was also a very dear sister who met with us who loves babies and she took care of them the whole time for me - it was a pleasure for her and for me. :)
Anyway, just pray and give the situation to the Lord.
Satan will use your daily circumstances to try to prevent you from meeting with the church and even make it seem like a burden. Rebuke Satan and seek Christ and the church!
I will pray that you and your wife will be able to find a practical solution to be able to enjoy Christ with other saints. :prayer:

Wisdom's Child

28th October 2006, 10:06 AM

....then there are those who are scheduled to work on Sundays.
And it is not economically feasable to change jobs.
Must we be forced to choose between attending Sunday services and being able to financially support our family?

Starcrystal

28th October 2006, 10:10 AM

Yeah, we DO end up enjoying it and being blessed once we do get there. I think the "burden" part comes mainly when we are getting ready. For instance last Sunday my wife just couldn't get going in time for the Bible study hour so we only made it for the regular preaching & singing (which it ended up being all singing and no preaching but a huge altar response plus the attendance was highest ever at 56.)
Sunday night wife & baby stayed home. I personally missed bible study because I often participate and give feedback. It's interactive where most members in attendance share, unlike those studies where the "teacher" just talks down at you and gives very little space for other input.

I think also that finding the closer church has helped because with the other one we never even went on a weekly basis regularly.

Anyways, once we do go and after the service we feel glad we went. the burden part seems to be before, but that's when it can prevent one or both from going.

By the way our church has a cry room if babies fuss, plus the pastor recently said how often children get fussy just when God moves in a message so his solution is to talk at a volume above the children. Much better than some churches I was in years ago where the pastor would feel interupted and tell a mom to remove a crying child from the sanctuary because it disrupting the message!:doh:

Krysstian

28th October 2006, 09:35 PM

Honestly, I love my church and some days I do not even have a way to go. I know God appreciates the effort and I believe its symbolizes to show God no matter what we want to do, we will be faithful! When I don't go to church I make church at home. Do praise and worship, pray, and read His word. I give my tithes faithfully and I don't really give them to the church.

God wants us to rest. I dont like to do anything on my days off. Don't let this bother you because God knows your heart.

fratz

28th October 2006, 10:15 PM

there are no non-denominational churches where i am. i would have to travel 30 min. or more to get to one. my work schedule also interferes. i have found some websites that offer audio sermons and i utilize several devotional sites. along with reading scripture. at least this way i can work it into my schedule as opposed to not getting it at all.

fratz

28th October 2006, 10:17 PM

Elesaid

29th October 2006, 09:13 AM

We felt that way too sometimes when our church was half an hour drive away and we have 3 kids. WE moved to a church that is 10 mins away and it is such a joy now. There was also the factor that I was burnt out doing a ministry that I didn't really want to be doing with leader's that didn't listen to me when I told them how I was feeling.

From reading your first post, I'd say that you probably have too much on. You could stop going to the night service and that would give you guys an afternoon and evening together each week. I'm not sure how US churches are run because in Australia, we don't have the Bible study thing before church. We go straight to a praise and sermon meeting that goes for roughly 2 hours. You could think about skipping the Bible study too, but maybe not because you enjoy it so much.

There sounds like there is some options here that you could play around with. Maybe pray and see where God is leading?

Amisk

29th October 2006, 10:42 AM

Church is one of the easiest things to get pushed out of our lives. It is also very easy to allow other things to become more important than our times with God.

Yes, it is sometimes a struggle to fit all of this life's responsibility into a week, and sometimes our employers force us to work at times which conflict with our duty to God. According to the scriptures it is a sin on the part of our employer to make his employees to work on the Sabbath. (that is not to say that there are not emergencies which demand that we work or jobs which are essential to working on the Sabbath. There are such times.)

However, we need to make changes in our lives in which we are not to busy for to go to the house of God on Sunday. Christians who find themselves to busy to attend church usually so drift away and loose out spiritually. I guess that is why Paul warns us, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." Heb. 10-25

I am reminded of a little story that I heard sometime ago and have often repeated since.

A elder gentleman had a problem at his church and so he stopped attending. The pastor dropped by one afternoon and found the old gent sitting in his rocker in front of a burning fireplace.

Without a word the pastor walked over to the fireplace and taking the tongs he lifted one live burning coal from the fire and placed it on the hearth before taking a chair near by. He said nothing about the coal during the conversation that followed.

As he and the elderly gent. talked they watched the coal as the flame died out, the coal turned from red to blue and then smoldered down to a purple colour and on to black. Nothing was said as the fire in the coal appeared to have died.

Just before the pastor read a verse or two from the Bible and said a prayer before leaving, he once more returned to the fireplace. Taking the tongs he lifted the coal into the midst of the burning embers. Then he read the passage of scriptures, offered the departing prayer.
As all this had gone on the two watched the coal begin to send up a blue flame once more. The blue flame gave way to a health red and yellow flame.

The pastor stood up and started for the door. The old man followed and as the pastor reached for the door knob, the old gent. addressed his pastor once more. "Thanks for the object lesson, pastor."

I hope this helps.

fratz

29th October 2006, 12:12 PM

christianmomof3

29th October 2006, 03:50 PM

well when it comes down to either putting food on the table or living on welfare...i'm not going to go to church if i can study at home on my own. the problem is that some of us work in places that can't just shut down on sunday's. someone has to be there to take care of folks that are in hospitals...nursing homes...mental facilities...etc. these are places that never close. they are operating 365 days a year & they have to have staff. if i had made the request on the application to not work on sunday's because of religious beliefs i wouldn't have a job right now. or anything else. so where do we draw the line? if i was unemployed & homeless right now...i doubt seriously i'd be allowed to set foot in a church. you know?

[edit] i would also like to say that i would rather study at home when i can as opposed to not being fed at all. that would be worse yet. i also don't feel as though i'm loosing out spiritually at all. thanks for the post though.
The church is the Body of Christ. It is not just a Sunday morning service. If you really have to work on Sunday mornings and can't do anything about it, then find a church that has meetings at other times. Our church has lots of home group meetings and there is probably one available any evening of the week and we also have some during the day during the week for people who are available at those times. My husband used to have a job that had him working Sunday morings for 6 months of the year. But he still met with the church at other times. You don't have to go to a Sunday morning meeting, but you should try to enjoy Christ together with other Christians gathered together in His name whenever you can. Pray and ask the Lord to help you to find a time and a way to meet with other Christians. He will honor such a request.

fratz

30th October 2006, 04:24 AM

The church is the Body of Christ. It is not just a Sunday morning service. If you really have to work on Sunday mornings and can't do anything about it, then find a church that has meetings at other times. Our church has lots of home group meetings and there is probably one available any evening of the week and we also have some during the day during the week for people who are available at those times. My husband used to have a job that had him working Sunday morings for 6 months of the year. But he still met with the church at other times. You don't have to go to a Sunday morning meeting, but you should try to enjoy Christ together with other Christians gathered together in His name whenever you can. Pray and ask the Lord to help you to find a time and a way to meet with other Christians. He will honor such a request.
i work nearly 7 days a week. i live in a small community and there is only one church that has sat. service. i'm not a mennonite. i'd have to change denominations or move to another town. :confused:

Nadiine

30th October 2006, 06:00 AM

Speaking for myself only, I can think of 2 types of reasons when church becomes a 'burden'... when I'm not walking as closely with Him personally and when we felt the Pastor's teaching wasn't feeding us both or had taken an unfavorable path.
(we've been in evangelistic type churches where meat wasn't being given - but more of the same message we already knew & heard each week... Pastors that started watering down & even apologizing for preaching some verses that sounded "harsher", etc.).
It wasn't often, but we have 'dried up' under a few pastors (ps. we had also moved many times and had to find a new church which isn't easy).
But during the process of slowly needing another Pastor, yes, there's that burden that creeps in of not wanting to go.

I also don't think that you need any "excuses" of working too much to feel church becoming a burden; it can happen when you're not busy at all.

I believe church is ESSENTIAL in the Christian life. We need to have a home church and be in the presence of others in the family of God for many many reasons I won't list here.
However, I do not believe that one MUST be obligated to be at church every time the doors open for service.
Especially when today there are so many other forms of learning/home worship - Tv, DVD, CD, Internet...

If you WANT to be active like that, wonderful, God bless you richly!! :thumbsup: But oftentimes it's some extremely active followers who can get the judgmental attitude that EVERYONE must attend as often as they do or 'hold others accountable' when they notice they weren't in church the prior week - pushing guilt trips on them.
I've seen it, and I've had it happen to me. There's a fine line between accountability and legalism thru forced guilt.

Also, we cannot enforce OUR current 'spiritual highs' or levels of faith ONTO others who are not currently in the same level...
YOU may want to be at church 24/7, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Joe Blow who isn't up to your spiritual stature, doesn't Love the Lord or is in rebellion either - as if he has to 'come up' to where you are.
We need to be careful what we impose on others and WHY we impose it.

***AND SOMETIMES, WE NEED TO HUMBLY ACCEPT WHEN A BROTHER/SISTER HOLDS US ACCOUNTABLE to ask why we haven't been to church for 3 or 4+ weeks in a row!!
Keeping a soft, open spirit to accept when we need some chastening. :bow:

I think it's an individual spiritual issue. If one goes to church because one feels pressured & forced by other Christians, then the motive becomes the problem and it removes the JOY from it for the most part.
*(thinking of the principle of God loving a cheerful giver).

But most of the time when I find myself in a pattern of not wanting to get to church, (for me), it's usually when I'm struggling w/ an issue in my life and/or my walk isn't as close with the Lord.
In those times, I prefer home study/worship more frequently than church. I can't say why, just that's how I feel. (and oftentimes I'll force myself to get to church becuz I feel I NEED to be there).

Every genuine Christian goes thru spiritual dry times and struggles of all kinds :sick: - I think at some time or another in our walk, church attendance feels like a burden... the issue is if you go anyway or not.
And I don't think that if you skip a week or 2 that month, that it's going to KILL you spiritually.
In fact, not going can produce a dryness in you that can later propel you into feeling a strong desire for the Lord and snap back into spiritual shape (as you realize how much you love and need Him!!)

When I take issue is when people attack church attendance as if it's completely unecessary, unbiblical and/or unimportant.

Bottom line, we should be concerned for others spiritual conditions, but be equally careful that we aren't wrongly judging their condition by OUR personal view on how often we need to attend. :preach: We need to examine our inner motives and make sure they're PURE before the Lord.
:bow:

New_Wineskin

30th October 2006, 08:58 AM

No, this is not an anti church topic!

I am just wondering if there are any others out there who find going to church a burden on their schedual? Or is my family the only one? (Can't be!)

...

Anyone else ever feel like going to church can be a burden?

Absolutely . That is why I don't do that sort of thing , anymore . It is too ritualistic and too repetitive . The fact that people say that one *must* go automatically makes it a burden .

I like to spend time with the Lord . I can do that wherever and whenever I want . And , I can visit my siblings as our schedules permit .

New_Wineskin

30th October 2006, 09:00 AM

God wants us to rest. I dont like to do anything on my days off. Don't let this bother you because God knows your heart.
:thumbsup: :amen:

New_Wineskin

30th October 2006, 09:04 AM

christianmomof3

30th October 2006, 09:46 AM

i work nearly 7 days a week. i live in a small community and there is only one church that has sat. service. i'm not a mennonite. i'd have to change denominations or move to another town. :confused:
I am sorry that you have not found any Christians who you can enjoy the Lord with.
I pray that you can find someone else to enjoy the Lord with. :prayer:

Starcrystal

30th October 2006, 10:57 AM

Ok, there is a lot here now after the weekend! So I will try to reply to what I can.
First of all I expected Hebrews 10:25 about not forsking the assembling of ourselves together to pop up here. By the way Paul didn't write that, though some feel he wrote Hebrews it is out of synch with his other letters.
Anyways, that verse has been used by so many pastors to put a guilt trip on people to go to church and it has absolutely nothing to do with gathering in a church (though by default it can apply). What it has to do with is assembling with other believers as opposed to being unequally yoked with unbelievers. In other words it can applies to who you hang out with & fellowship with both in and out of church. It also has to do with private meetings, home bible studies, home gatherings, outdoor meetings with others in fields, at parks, anywhere! And neither does it have to do with large congeregations as church... Jesus said where 2 or more are gathered in his name he is there.

Ok, I do not think just because church attendance feels like a burden that a person is not right with God. In fact it's not that church itself is a burden because as I've explained when we get there we are blessed. It's mainly getting out the door and has everything to do with my wife being exhausted, that we heat by wood and have to get up 2 -3 times a night to load the wood stove, that our 11 month old requires feeding & diaper changes and preparation of diaper bag, formula, food, etc. Babies are WORK.
I agree with Kristian that God wants us to rest and in fact did set aside a day of rest (Though it was Saturday, not Sunday.) I know from experience that working nonstop 7 days a week will burn you out quick. God isn't stupid - there was a REASON he designed a day of rest!
Finding other churches, yes we already explained we did start attending a church that's 7 miles away as opposed to 23 miles. We do attend this one regularly. My wife will stay home for evening service and I will go. That's no big deal. And she is fine during and after service.

Cutting out things we don't need in order to make time for God. Good suggestion, but unreasonable. Unless someone gives my wife a job in town at comparable wages. All the jobs in town were 5.15 - 6 an hour and mostly part time. Does God want us to spiral into poverty worse than we already are? I would love to regain some sort of internet income like I had last year and up till June, but while we did make money enough to move and initially build, we were ripped off almost $12,000 this year which severely set us back. So one of us working is a necessity, unless God sends us some substantial finances.

Secondly, my duties are all necessary. I have to cut wood. I have to feed the animals, I have to be working on the addition to our cabin. I have to keep the place warm in the cold weather which requires loading the wood stove. I have to make water runs since we have no running water. In summer the garden needed tending regularly, now in fall it's time to rake leaves and burn them. I may not work a paying job but I work full time usually 7 days a week. Yes, even yesterday between church services I worked for about 3 hours building an enclosure and place for shelving behind the cabin.

Here's the side of our place. that stone walled enclosure is nearly finished now, but I'll tell you, collecting stones and carrying them by hand, or from down the road in the car is hard work. I've been at this for at least 2 months and it's only 1 out of several projects I have going on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/elfinzone/photo125.jpg

As you also see we live in the woods and maintaining 8 acres of land is work. Now some might say we chose this life and they would be right. I'd much rather own land that is paid for and have my privacy than to worry about coming up with a monthly rent which sometimes we could not afford. We also had anticipated on having most everything done and the loss of 12,000 this year put a lot on hold. that is why I am using stone and natural (free) materials instead of buying building materials - because it's all we could afford.

As for church... we can worship God in our woods. We can fellowship with our neighbors where I used to lead a bible study wednesday nights, so that was church. They stopped when gas prices went down and they started going back to the 23 mile away church. But we are making at least 1 service on Sunday.

I also agree with those who say it is important to fellowship with other believers. And we do that.

I just hope that the burdensome feelings & presure do not afflict us on Sunday morning. It's just terrible when one or both of us dreads having to get ready to go out the door, even if we enjoy everything once we get there. :)

Paddington

30th October 2006, 11:01 AM

I used to find church a bit of a burden in that I felt I HAD to go every week. I've been going with my parents since I was born and never felt like I had a choice. It was never that I wanted to stop going to church, but if there was a week where I didn't really want to go, my parents would be upset/cross/whatever and I just started to accept it as something we did on a Sunday rather than think about why *I* was going. Recently I've found another church that I really look forward to and it's completely changed my view of church. Now I actually wish there were more services I could go to during the week!

Nadiine

30th October 2006, 12:22 PM

First of all I expected Hebrews 10:25 about not forsking the assembling of ourselves together to pop up here. By the way Paul didn't write that, though some feel he wrote Hebrews it is out of synch with his other letters.
Anyways, that verse has been used by so many pastors to put a guilt trip on people to go to church and it has absolutely nothing to do with gathering in a church (though by default it can apply). What it has to do with is assembling with other believers as opposed to being unequally yoked with unbelievers. :)
To the OP & new reply:
Um,.. it seems to me like you already have your mind made up and have studied the subject already?

Since your OP said you weren't "anti church", I didn't bother w/ the Hebrews 10 verse on gathering... I'm sure that's why most haven't quoted it here in response. You said it was about feeling a burden about attending sometimes, not arguing if it's biblical or not.

But I don't agree with your study findings regarding 'not forsaking the assembling of yourselves'.

And I strongly object to you adding to Pastor's motives by claiming they're trying to push guilt trips on people to get them to go to church by preaching that.
You cannot KNOW their motive unless you can read hearts (which we know only God can do). So I think that was a rather biased and judgmental claim you made.

I disagree about your intepretation of Hebrews namely becuz we have so many direct examples of formal church gathering for God's people in the Old and New Testaments both. It was common practice as was giving offerings/alms.

IF we had no direct examples of regular gathering AT established places (temples, homes, buildings etc), then I'd be more apt to accept some of your statements made on Hebrews.

Additionally, whether or not Paul wrote Hebrews really isn't the issue - it is canonized scripture and we as Christians adhere to it as the inspired truth of God.

I'm just kinda wondering why you had asked opinions if you already seem to 'know' all answers? Maybe just curious i dunno..

And, lastly, yes I think not wanting to bother going to church CAN be a direct link to our spiritual condition or attitude towards God. (My relatives just recently admitted this very thing to be the case for them over the past 15 years as well and are now regularly attending a local church willfully).
I won't judge anyone on it, or claim it's true for every person, but I have seen the patterns and have experienced it myself which is why I stand by my claim regarding it.

Whatever the case, God is our judge and since I'm responsible for myself, I'll live as I feel led & convicted by Him in my own life. =)

fratz

30th October 2006, 01:34 PM

I am sorry that you have not found any Christians who you can enjoy the Lord with.
I pray that you can find someone else to enjoy the Lord with. :prayer:
that's not the point. anyway...god bless you all. have a good week. :)

favored_one

30th October 2006, 02:08 PM

I have felt this way before. My spouse is active in ministry also plus he works midnights and does weekend gigs(musician) for extra cash. Some weeks it seems we barely see each other. When I was overwhelmed by church a few years back, I honestly took a break!! I took a leave of absence from the music ministry and attended only ONE church service. I did this about 2 months. I felt church was a routine for me and I was not getting that much out of even the message because I was tired and burned out. I didn't not want to worship God in this state of mind. While on leave, I prayed and the Lord showed me to be thankful that I have the health to serve him. He let me see many people that wished they could experience church services but were unable for various reasons(health, transportation, etc). My attitude was refreshed and I've been busy ever since...and LOVING it!

RonnyRulz

30th October 2006, 05:58 PM

I've felt it was a burden before, but only because I felt the church didn't care about God, they just cared about "being righteous" by going every sunday. As if attending church is what grants salvation. Bah!

From what God has taught me, rest is incredibly important. Also, church isn't for everyone because God has different plans for different people. Rest and a personal relationship with God is more important than church and the danger of religious people putting God in a box with a steeple.

First, I know plenty of "Christians" who look down on people who don't goto church (considering even the most devout saints as heathens) or those who aren't 100% in their attendance. That doesn't just sicken me, it sickens God. God detests self-righteous people who judge others based on their church attendance, as if that has anything to do with their relationship with God.

Second, I say that to say this: Despite what most Christians think, Church isn't required, and in all actuality you are MORE LIKELY to be fed on a consistent and powerful basis at home by yourself, alone with God, than in a church service.

I've been going to church non-stop for over 2 years now. Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Sundays, I've done it all, and even worked at one church practically everyday of the week. Wednesday services, Bible studies, prayer meetings, regular services, worship services, sunday morning services, sunday evening services. And in all honesty, I get THOUSANDS times more of God sitting in my room all by myself than I ever had in any service I've ever been to. Yea, when you're in a group things are more intense, but for where my spirit walks, most people give up and so going to "church" is actually a downgrade of the Presence of God. God moves in my humble room more powerfully and more often than He moves in the churches I go to. God still moves there, but my relationship with God is the way it is because of my 1-on-1 time with Him, NOT because of "Church". I am the Body of Christ, not some box with a steeple. Church is overrated by most Christians. I think it's harder for God to convince people in a group that He is worth seeking than it is to convince an individual when they're alone with Him.

Anyways, to get off of my soapbox... rest is more important than attendance. If you aren't rested, God can't use you. If you have a choice between being rested and going to church, the God-choice would be to be rested, not to attend church. Rested in the body, rested in the soul, rested in the spirit.

And with such wonderful land, I could be more in touch with God in the beauty of nature, trees, and fresh air, than I ever could in a church. Instead of going to church sunday you and your wife should just hang out outside by yourselves (individually) for awhile to chill with God, and then after individually, do it together for awhile. 1-on-1 time with God is essential, church isn't. And after the 1-on-1 individual-Godtime you both have, the coming together as Husband-God-Wive connection is stinkin awesome as well! I'm sure you wouldn't have to drive to go into your backyard either, and if worse comes to worse you can do it one at a time (while the other watches over your child) and then afterwards spend time with God as a family :)

With the hours it takes you to get ready, drive, attend church, and drive back, you could spend a ton of time alone with God, familytime with God, and still be rested, relaxed, and lovin' life, and if you eventually actually feel rested enough to goto church, even if it's only once a year lol, it's still good, you're rested, know God, and everything is great.

GreatFaith

30th October 2006, 06:12 PM

What I read is that fratz is telling christianmomof3 that she is not listening and understanding what fratz is saying.

GreatFaith

30th October 2006, 06:14 PM

If you go to some assembly part of some denomination you become part of their system of beliefs unwittingly just by being there.

GreatFaith

30th October 2006, 06:16 PM

What do you mean by church? If by church you mean some organization set up by man, is it truly the church? What if only 5% of the people in that church are saved, can you still call it the church that you are going to for that independent organization?

GreatFaith

30th October 2006, 06:19 PM

Take for example Perry Stone. You are expected to engage in non-language type utterances. What about Dr. Lowery? He is old and popular and claims Perry Stone's ministery is the best North America has ever seen, that those under him are his sons and daughters. Is this the church? With its false teachings including assuming anyone who is saved will be raptured befre the Tribulation even though they can lay on a bed of fornication. Serious questions need serious responses.

GreatFaith

30th October 2006, 06:22 PM

The burden of the church should be a calling to be discharged once fulfilled. The burden of the church is not to have a Christian Sabbath, but where two or three are gathered in His name is to His glory. Assembly on a convenient day of the week is good, but the question remains, who are you really fellowshipping with? Too few ask this question, then they get into trouble down the road when they find out what they really believe.

RonnyRulz

30th October 2006, 06:32 PM

That's a good question, "Who are you really fellowshipping with?" if the only people someone ever fellowships with for years is just their wife and children, then praise God, because that's plenty.

Everyone's calling in life is different. Some people's destiny might be to raise the next John the Baptist or give complete and total love and care to the next Paul. Or perhaps God just wants someone to build their relationship with their wife for 1, 5, 10, 20 years! Who knows? Only God does and those to whom he chooses to reveal it to.

All I know is this: never put God in a box.

God does love it when his children have fellowship together, but for christians to have a mindset "Talk to as many people as possible, the more the better." is to put a limit on God. If God wants someone to have fellowship with only 1 other person, then that's the best thing to do. God is all about quality as much as he is about quantity. Family is also incredibly important.

If all one person does for their whole life is love their wife or their child, and love God, then that person is a success. One person is plenty. And seeing as how this guy also fellowships with his neighbors and friends, then he has plenty of fellowship.

A great question: "who are you really fellowshipping with?" To really love someone, to really care for someone, to have real fellowship instead of shallow-fellowship.
Hmm.. this brings me to think, even for myself, who am I really truely fellowshipping with?

Nadiine

30th October 2006, 06:51 PM

I've felt it was a burden before, but only because I felt the church didn't care about God, they just cared about "being righteous" by going every sunday. As if attending church is what grants salvation. Bah!

From what God has taught me, rest is incredibly important. Also, church isn't for everyone because God has different plans for different people. Rest and a personal relationship with God is more important than church and the danger of religious people putting God in a box with a steeple.

First, I know plenty of "Christians" who look down on people who don't goto church (considering even the most devout saints as heathens) or those who aren't 100% in their attendance. That doesn't just sicken me, it sickens God. God detests self-righteous people who judge others based on their church attendance, as if that has anything to do with their relationship with God.

Second, I say that to say this: Despite what most Christians think, Church isn't required, and in all actuality you are MORE LIKELY to be fed on a consistent and powerful basis at home by yourself, alone with God, than in a church service.

I'd like to add a few comments... I understand about disliking judging, I mentioned it in my posts, but your statment seems pass that to the whole church (even if previously) that it "didnt' care about God, they just cared about 'being righteous' by going every Sunday". We can't know people's inner motives or heart; only God does.

Judgments can work both ways - both by those wrongly judging others for LACK of church attendance, and those who we decide are "pious" for going/or why they go. Or pointing out the 'hypocrites' we claim who go there. etc. etc.

Another comment I'd like to raise is that you said "church isn't required", but if it isn't, then I'd like to better understand why God even instigated the formal worship places to meet in the Old and New Testaments.
:(
And I'm wondering where we go to get baptized and take communion (as commanded) if we're rejecting formal church attendance?

God had Temples built and the NT starts the tradition of churches and home churches for gathering together and taking up collections to advance/help God's people and promote His word around the world.
Church is alot more than just 'going to hear a 1/2 hour sermon & sing some songs" I think.

If God didn't think we needed a formal place to gather, then I don't think He'd of bothered with them. I don't think tv or dvd's can quite replace physical contact or provide us one on one spiritual aid when we may come to need it.

It can be a great substitute in times of lack, but I don't believe it's a healthy replacement over time.

But I'm glad you do go :cool: .. I don't go every single week myself now that my husband works a few Sundays here and there. I do enjoy some home study those days.
:wave:

GreatFaith

30th October 2006, 08:55 PM

Remember, the pearl of great price is the church which is even more important than our natural families.

GreatFaith

30th October 2006, 08:58 PM

Some keep misusing the term church. To say you are going to church is like saying you are going to be saved, since the body of Christ is the church. You don't go to yourself. What you go to is assembly of the church, not the church. You are already the church in your Ephesus or Philippi or Smyrna or Jerusalem. And the whole body of Christ in all these places all over the globe is the universal church.

Elesaid

30th October 2006, 09:01 PM

I was burnt out a year ago. I think I mentioned before and I felt the Lord telling me to take a year off to seek Him and be found in Him. I did that at the scrutiny of others because I was a leader in ministry, but what a blessing it has been. I have now rejoined some ministry and am actually doing something that I have a heart for. I feel totally refreshed. In that year, I just went to church and didn't join any ministry. It was well needed and now I know it is time to start again.

I believe going to church is important. And for me, I can really slack off and not spend that huge time with God when I am not at church, so if I was to stop going it would result more negatively than positively. I have seen it happen in a lot of people also.

Nadiine

30th October 2006, 10:12 PM

I think Jesus called a place of gathering, "house".
Mat 21:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat021.html#13) And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mar 11:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar011.html#17) And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

So I do think there is a literal PLACE God designates as HIS HOUSE/place of worship to Himself - we happen to call it "church" in the English language.

I understand what you're saying technically, but I think we still have to use our English language definitions so we all understand one another.

Websters:
church (chûrch) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n. A building for public, especially Christian worship.

often Church
The company of all Christians regarded as a spiritual body.
A specified Christian denomination: the Presbyterian Church.
A congregation.
Public divine worship in a church; a religious service: goes to church at Christmas and Easter.This is similar to hearing Christians use this phrase: "I don't have religion, I have a relationship with Christ."
Spiritually that is true, but technically (in the English language), spirituality/faith fall under the subject of "religion".

I can't fathom going up to unsaved friends, asking them if they'de like to come to the "assembly of the church" with us? They'd end up asking what in the World I meant, and I'd have to just say "church".

I think it's just how our English language is and what we universally understand even tho biblically the church is the body (people) of Christ. :)
:wave:

RonnyRulz

31st October 2006, 04:23 AM

I'd like to add a few comments... I understand about disliking judging, I mentioned it in my posts, but your statment seems pass that to the whole church (even if previously) that it "didnt' care about God, they just cared about 'being righteous' by going every Sunday". We can't know people's inner motives or heart; only God does.

Doh! You're right, my mistake. I didn't mean it to seem like the whole church, just some people. There were a lot that came with (what I would say) is a great motive and pure heart. Although I can't tell what's in their hearts, I'm hoping it's positive, because they seemed to love God, and God's Presence did show up thanks to some of those wonderful people. It definitely isn't the whole church, just some of it. You're completely right though, and I don't know if what I believe is true. I could be wrong, they might have pure hearts, I can't be sure. But it did feel like some of them wanted just to "get into heaven" by having 100% attendance. I am aware that judgement can go both ways, thanks for the warning though, it's very easy for me to slip in judging those who judge, and I can use all the helpful warnings I can get. I should probably repent. I appreciate it.:)

Another comment I'd like to raise is that you said "church isn't required", but if it isn't, then I'd like to better understand why God even instigated the formal worship places to meet in the Old and New Testaments.
:(
And I'm wondering where we go to get baptized and take communion (as commanded) if we're rejecting formal church attendance?

Required is different from really good for you. The only thing required is love for God and Jesus's blood. Nothing else is required to have access to God. But just because I said it isn't required doesn't mean we should reject it. I certaintly don't reject church, or church attendance. I have went to church several times a week, every single week, for the past 2 years, never missing but 1 or 2 services per year. I'm not saying church is bad, I'm just saying it isn't required and that church isn't a building people come to meet, but a group of people coming together that can range from just a husband and wife to a huge flock of sheep.

God had Temples built and the NT starts the tradition of churches and home churches for gathering together and taking up collections to advance/help God's people and promote His word around the world.

Yea, you're right, the NT got it right when they realized WE are the temples that God built and that it just requires two temples to get together for 'church'. Home churches rock because it's usually between intimates or at least in a more intimate setting, and church can be a good thing whether it's at a box with a steeple or at the local panera bread drinking coffee together.

Church is alot more than just 'going to hear a 1/2 hour sermon & sing some songs" I think.

I completely agree! A lot of people make it out to be a sermon and some songs, but it is meant to be so much more than that. A lot more!

If God didn't think we needed a formal place to gather, then I don't think He'd of bothered with them.

Let me emphasize again the difference between need and good. God knows we don't need a formal place to gather, but He knows it can be good for us. There is a difference.

I don't think tv or dvd's can quite replace physical contact or provide us one on one spiritual aid when we may come to need it.

I COMPLETELY agree.

Starcrystal

31st October 2006, 11:04 AM

Church is alot more than just 'going to hear a 1/2 hour sermon & sing some songs" I think.

If God didn't think we needed a formal place to gather, then I don't think He'd of bothered with them. I don't think tv or dvd's can quite replace physical contact or provide us one on one spiritual aid when we may come to need it.

It can be a great substitute in times of lack, but I don't believe it's a healthy replacement over time.

But I'm glad you do go :cool: .. I don't go every single week myself now that my husband works a few Sundays here and there. I do enjoy some home study those days.
:wave:

I agree with this. I know a lot of people feel the "electric church" (televangelists & such) are their spiritual food, and that can be, but it does not have the same annointing as a gathering of believers. I mean, how can you lay hands on someone to pray for them? How can you give someone a hug of consolation? Or be an active participant in the song service?

Oh, the reason I said what I said about Hebrews 10:25 is because I HAVE seen it abused over my 22 years as a Christian. Not in every case mind you, and certainly not by every pastor who quotes it, but some do sad to say.

I've been in churches where they absolutely relied on the tithes and offerings even to stay in business. In fact I had one pastor tell me a few times that church was a BUSINESS and that they had accountants like a business, and therefore could not allow some people to be a financial burden on the church! When attendance was down Hebrews 10:25 was fired at the congregation. "We need to get our numbers back up because the weekly offering is down to a critical point." (I'm paraphrasing that but that was basically what was said.)
So Hebrews 10:25 was used for the numbers game and so they could make more money. As an insider I know the church wasn't in danger of "going out of business" but they were in danger of having little "profit" with which the pastor was paid his salary! So it wasn't about salvation or even a threat of losing the building. It was about a paycheck.
In fact I was approached by the pastor and told that I was causing a division in the church and here's why: At the time I was very poor and 3 members of the congregation (of over 100) had given me a little money. I hadn't asked - they told me God had spoke to them to help me out. Other members felt they shouldn't have given me money and even went so far as to say that money could have gone to the church offering! But is not the church called to help the poor and especially members of its own congregation if they are down?

James 2:6 - But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

Isaiah 58:6 & 7 - Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Sorry, this may be a bit off topic from my OP but I'm just wanting to let you know that sometimes we can see it is obvious that an elder is misusing scripture for personal gain, and even the Bible warns us of such things. It is not a matter of judging, it is a matter of discernment - and sometimes it is so plainly obvious that you don't even need to spiritually discern it because it's so clear.

Another thing you mentioned was about a persons spiritual condition could be reflected by their feeling church is a burden. While that is not our case now, I do know what you are saying. When I went through times of backsliding I felt church itself was a burden and therefore didn't go at all. This present situation has to do with getting out the door and nothing to do with church itself. Most attendees in our church are saved, the Holy Spirit is allowed to move, the message is not rife with complex pet doctrines but simple and straitforward, and people are blessed. The elders show genuine love for the members and say they are there for them if ever needed.

SteelDisciple

31st October 2006, 04:16 PM

Many times my wife and I stay home, lay down and watch our church pastor preach via Podcast. After a long, hard week of work...we just don't feel like going out. The Church is us.

Nadiine

31st October 2006, 06:01 PM

Many times my wife and I stay home, lay down and watch our church pastor preach via Podcast. After a long, hard week of work...we just don't feel like going out. The Church is us.

Ok.. I'm not knocking you for this Steel... but this attitude is EXACTLY what I fight to keep from having about God and worship of Him.

Is God SO common and 'boring' to me/us that we just don't feel like rolling out of bed to bother going? I say this to my own guilt/shame. It's not at you whatsoever.
I WANT MORE THAN THIS in my walk with God.

If someone gave us tickets to go to a baseball game, or some other event, we'd all of a sudden find the excitement & motivation to go to THAT! wouldn't we?

My question is, is God becoming BORING AND COMMON TO US? Have we lost our first Love?
I don't want my Christian life to be like this where God is commonplace and 'blah' to me & it's a chore to follow Him.
Maybe that's the problem with the general churches in America today?

I need to get closer to the Lord. :cry:

OutsideTheGate

31st October 2006, 09:18 PM

Could there ever be such a monster? Isn't implying "anti-church" the same as "anti-christ", since Christ is the church?

I'm new here, and it is my sincere prayer that my shared thoughts will neither offend, or give cause for another to defend what is the will of God for his/her life.

Color me ignorant, but I'm a bit confused here, and have been for quite some time since visiting a few Christian forums. Entertain me, if you are so led?

What exactly was the reason(s) that Jesus reprimanded the scribes and Pharisees so vehemently? What exactly were the reasons that Jesus told His followers to "hear" their teachings, but to not follow their ways? What were their errors; how had they veered from the way of Holiness? Are we repeating their errors today with traditions and doctrines of man?

I see a larger picture than your guilt from feeling burdened about going to fellowship services. As with so many others, we have been indoctrinated into believing that this is required to serve/worship the Lord. There is not one Scripture in the entire 1st Testament that teaches, compels or commands us to organize our worship services. It has been done for many, many years; but, longevity has absolutely nothing to do with Biblical truth. So, why are you feeling so burdened?

You're feeling burdened because you are attempting to appease man. You're feeling burdened because you've seared your conscience into believing that, if you don't fellowship with like-believers on a regular basis, then you're not worthy of your salvation. You're feeling burdened because going to "church" has given you a false sense of security that, without it, you feel lost. Well, ask yourself, who saved you; the salvific work of Christ Jesus, or the 'church'? Who knows better than anyone else just how tired you are, and what you're dealing with on a day-to-day basis? How honest are you being with the Lord when you're putting on "airs" for others? Gathering together for fellowship and worship of our Lord Jesus is honorable in the sight of God, and spiritually encouraging for us all; yet, why can't that happen in the family room with your wife and child? Why can't that happen out in the field right before you start to work? Are we really listening and adhering to the teachings of Christ?

We have the freedom to go and worship wherever we so choose in this day and time; yet, there will soon come a time when this freedom will no longer be ours to exercise. What then shall we do? Will our foundations crumble, and our security nets be snatched from under us? Will the Lord lose one iota of His sovereignty because our designated place of worship is no longer available? God forbid!!

With all that you have on your plate, how much of that do you feel the Lord considers worship to Him? Are you serving Him by sitting in "church" every Sunday; or, is your service to Him the work of your faith that is daily and without pre-programming? Must your worship always be among men?

Before anyone assumes that I am a budding seed of satan, allow me to say that I've been saved for over 30 years, and I, too, used to think that if I was not in the building when the doors swang open that I had insulted the Lord. Thank God for deliverance, and the freedom that is in Christ Jesus!

The Lord seeks those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. Fellowship with others when it is the call of the Holy Spirit within you; and, when it's not, fellowship with your family, and honor the Lord with your true worship....always....right where you are!

In His grip,

OTG

Nadiine

31st October 2006, 10:19 PM

I see a larger picture than your guilt from feeling burdened about going to fellowship services. As with so many others, we have been indoctrinated into believing that this is required to serve/worship the Lord. There is not one Scripture in the entire 1st Testament that teaches, compels or commands us to organize our worship services. It has been done for many, many years; but, longevity has absolutely nothing to do with Biblical truth. So, why are you feeling so burdened?

You're feeling burdened because you are attempting to appease man. You're feeling burdened because you've seared your conscience into believing that, if you don't fellowship with like-believers on a regular basis, then you're not worthy of your salvation. You're feeling burdened because going to "church" has given you a false sense of security that, without it, you feel lost. Well, ask yourself, who saved you; the salvific work of Christ Jesus, or the 'church'? Who knows better than anyone else just how tired you are, and what you're dealing with on a day-to-day basis? How honest are you being with the Lord when you're putting on "airs" for others? Gathering together for fellowship and worship of our Lord Jesus is honorable in the sight of God, and spiritually encouraging for us all; yet, why can't that happen in the family room with your wife and child? Why can't that happen out in the field right before you start to work? Are we really listening and adhering to the teachings of Christ?

We have the freedom to go and worship wherever we so choose in this day and time; yet, there will soon come a time when this freedom will no longer be ours to exercise. What then shall we do? Will our foundations crumble, and our security nets be snatched from under us? Will the Lord lose one iota of His sovereignty because our designated place of worship is no longer available? God forbid!!

With all that you have on your plate, how much of that do you feel the Lord considers worship to Him? Are you serving Him by sitting in "church" every Sunday; or, is your service to Him the work of your faith that is daily and without pre-programming? Must your worship always be among men?

Before anyone assumes that I am a budding seed of satan, allow me to say that I've been saved for over 30 years, and I, too, used to think that if I was not in the building when the doors swang open that I had insulted the Lord. Thank God for deliverance, and the freedom that is in Christ Jesus!

Well, without getting 'heated'... I'd again like to ask you the same Question... According to scripture example, WHY ARE GOD'S PEOPLE SEEN ATTENDING WORSHIP regularly together on the first day of the week?

The NT churches took offerings & sent out missionaries from within. The churches also give to the poor & needy... As I said earlier, there's alot more to worshipping God than hearing a sermon for 1/2 hour and singing a song or 2.

What of communion? What of baptism? Your same questions can be turned around, why DON"T people want to go to God's house to worship Him and fellowship with our family of God? Give offerings to keep the church open.

What happens to all the local churches when no one decides to they need church anymore? Who sends the missionaries out? Where do the needy go? the shut ins? I know our church has a small vehicle to pick them up to bring them to church.
Where do new Christians go to get baptized???
Where do the lost in the community get help? counsel?
Where do they hold funerals and weddings? Where do they have VBS to invite the local community kids?
When we LOSE the local churches, the community loses in many ways.

Alot more is at stake when good local churches start closing their doors in each neighborhood... while the FALSE churches thrive - because ironically, the nonchristian churches sure feel led to attend worship and give offerings. Where do the lost go then? To the local Mormon & Jeh. Wit. churches? Kabballah temples?

So, I personally think we should be thinking outside the box a little more than just, "I dont have to go" and see the bigger picture of why local church establishments are important to the community and why we should keep them thriving and alive.

When the New and Old testaments give us direct examples to follow, we need to take heed to that and follow it. I personally think God knows better than I do why He had His people attending regularly. I sure won't decide that something else is better for me.

In my posts I have made the point to mention that I don't think we have to be there 24/7. Yes, man CAN put guilt trips on us wrongly if we aren't attending every time the doors open... but do we throw the baby out with the bathwater?
My issue is towards the disdain of going or claiming it's not important or necessary for us to have a home church that we at least attend semi-regularly.

We sure have no problem getting to all our other fun functions and look forward to those things... were you trying to insinuate that we don't have the passion to go to church because we don't even NEED to & it's nothing necessary?
Scripture example refutes that.

Lastly, why RUSH the closing down of the church in America when we aren't persecuted to that point yet?
If they shut down due to that, that's 1 thing, but to let them all go down the drain when it's NOT necessary - why???

RonnyRulz

1st November 2006, 03:44 AM

Is God SO common and 'boring' to me/us that we just don't feel like rolling out of bed to bother going?

God isn't, but church can be. Church can be incredibly common, repetitive, and boring that we dont feel like rolling out of bed and going.

"The church is us."
Well said. Rock on dude.

I don't want my Christian life to be like this where God is commonplace and 'blah' to me & it's a chore to follow Him.
Maybe that's the problem with the general churches in America today?

I need to get closer to the Lord. :cry:

Way to go! That's the kind of heart that I love to see. Bless you :)

RonnyRulz

1st November 2006, 03:49 AM

What happens to all the local churches when no one decides to they need church anymore? Who sends the missionaries out? Where do the needy go? the shut ins?

God makes a new church, God sends the missionaries out, the needy and shut ins go to Jesus.

I have enough faith in my God that even if all churches were to go financially bankrupt and close, He'd still provide for everyone in need. God is a big god, and He is watching out for everyone. His hand is not too short to save.

You don't have to have a church to do all of those things, you just need one person or more to follow the Will of God. If you have that, you need nothing else. God is not short to say to someone walking with Him, "Go down to this place, do this and that and then this and that, then once you have the money do this and that and buy this place and open up this place and call it this thing and after that leave and do this and that."

God can make money appear out of nowhere, all He needs is people to do His Will and He can help the needy, help the newcomers, give out salvation and mercy, help and counsel, food and shelter. He can do it all with those who surrender to Him. God can't be limited or put in a box. You can't put God in a box with a steeple and say "Only in through box can people get help." God is limitless and infinitely powerful.

He is the only person that could take a raw hotdog, 2 frogs, and a cd case and use that to draw more people to him than any church ever could. Now that's a feat. 1 hotdog, 2 frogs, 1 cd case, stir.

HephzibahBenJudah

1st November 2006, 05:13 AM

Church a Burden ...no...religion is the burden with all the do's and don'ts...We are called to walk in a relationship with God not know IHim only by "hearsay" or others speculations. It's great that God is a personal God. He is so awesome.

Nadiine

1st November 2006, 08:45 AM

God makes a new church, God sends the missionaries out, the needy and shut ins go to Jesus.

I have enough faith in my God that even if all churches were to go financially bankrupt and close, He'd still provide for everyone in need. God is a big god, and He is watching out for everyone. His hand is not too short to save.

You don't have to have a church to do all of those things, you just need one person or more to follow the Will of God. If you have that, you need nothing else. God is not short to say to someone walking with Him, "Go down to this place, do this and that and then this and that, then once you have the money do this and that and buy this place and open up this place and call it this thing and after that leave and do this and that."

God can make money appear out of nowhere, all He needs is people to do His Will and He can help the needy, help the newcomers, give out salvation and mercy, help and counsel, food and shelter.

Yes, absolutely - I agree. God CAN make anything happen -- but when God has already established the "church" AS that vehicle (as we see in scripture), then we are already NOT following His chosen WILL when He's called us.

He IS calling us NOW/already to gather together in the 'house' He has already designated for us since the early New Testament which already do these very things in the orderly manner He's outlined in scripture. We're falling away from that call right now in droves because we've decided that we don't have to.

What if God calls someone TO DO SOMETHING EVEN HARDER, OR MORE SACRIFICIAL than just go to church semi-regularly or GIVE FINANCES SACRIFICIALLY to a fledgling ministry?... instead of the easier route of just doing it at the local church which you know and trust better than some unknown foreign ministry/people you can't personally verify or see?
Will they actually do something more costly and sacrifial when God calls them to do it when they refuse even the SIMPLEST task of attending/giving non-sacrificially to their church just 1-2x's a month??

(it reminds me of conversations I've heard where people claim "if a rapture happens, THEN I'll turn to God becuz then I'll know the bible's true". The reply is, if you won't accept Him now in faith under no threat, what makes you think you'll accept Him when your life is at stake thru persecution?
If you can't accept Him when it's EASY, why do you think you'll do it when you're under physical threat?).

But this still doesn't explain where people are getting Baptized once the churches are shut down.. if we let all the local churches die out, are we going to set up baptismal meetings separately for new converts?... doubful. And if we do that, WHY? We already have that function in place, AT CHURCH now.
(and whatever we set up in it's place, STILL ENDS UP BECOMING "CHURCH" traditions we do - separately, elsewhere).

Your post says God will tell someone: "Go down to this place, do this and that and then this and that, then once you have the money do this and that and buy this place and open up this place and call it this thing and after that leave and do this and that."

My point is, WE ALREADY DO THESE VERY THINGS AND HAVE THESE VERY THINGS SET UP FOR US NOW at the local church level... They already perform these very functions.
Why are we just allowing them to shut down & dissapear JUST SO WE CAN WORK TO START UP NEW SEPARATE MINISTRIES THAT DO THE EXACT SAME SPIRITUAL THINGS AND PROVIDE WHAT THEY ALREADY PROVIDE???? :scratch: :confused:
Do you see my point? And GOD established THIS method from Bible times... He set it up this way. Do we propose to know more or claim that way is failed? or wrong?

Where are we taking communion? Christ commanded communion too.
& Does this explain where we're going for local spiritual counsel? Pre-marriage cousel? Are we to find pastors on the INTERNET for this? (SCARY THOUGHT!).

I understand what you're saying. Yes, God CAN do anything! amen. But if we (includes self!) aren't willing to get out of bed to do the SIMPLEST things within God's will for us, what makes us think we'll do even more sacrificial, harder, bigger tasks when He calls... AND WE'RE ASSUMING HE'LL CALL ON US! If my view on this is correct, WILL HE ACTUALLY THINK WE'RE FAITHFUL ENOUGH TO BOTHER TO ASK US TO DO ANYTHING MORE when we wouldn't do something easy and less costly to us because we decided we didn't have to?

**Technically, everything we do repeatedly can become commonplace - like marriages, we don't just DUMP what becomes boring, WE WORK TO KEEP IT INTERESTING and new...
What happens when our NEW spiritual [non-church] routines & ventures become "boring"? :yawn:
When our new ventures & programs become "churchy".

Church attendance is NOT a "man made" establishment (nor is financial giving), it's established BY GOD Himself and exampled for us in the Old and New testaments.
The bible goes into lengthy detail about about church order, leadership and function.
I find that GOD finds it important & necessary for us (even if semi-regularly).

Again, I'm not at all judging who goes or how little they go... or promoting 24/7 worship 365 days of the year... is once or twice a month too torturous?
If so, maybe a new church that inspires us is in order?
:holy: i dunno.
thanks for your replies... by the way, your first reply really helped clarify some things for me, so thanks for that. :wave:

SUNSTONE

1st November 2006, 09:05 AM

SUNSTONE

1st November 2006, 09:06 AM

You also have 5000 posts.
So the evidence is showing that you have time to surf on the computer.

rosiecotton

1st November 2006, 09:09 AM

But this still doesn't explain where people are getting Baptized once the churches are shut down.. if we let all the local churches die out, are we going to set up baptismal meetings separately for new converts?... doubful. And if we do that, WHY? We already have that function in place, AT CHURCH now.
(

Why do we have to have a church building to baptize someone? In the Bible, people were baptized in the rivers, not in a church building.
And a minister doesn't have to be the one to baptize another. As long as the other person is a believer, they can baptize someone.
So, no, we don't have to have a church building in order to baptize someone.
As for church being a burden, yeah, sometimes it can become that way. There have been times I haven't really wanted to get up and go to church. Not because I don't want to worship God, but because of all the stupid stuff that keeps going on in our church. I just get tired of all of it sometimes and it can affect the way I feel about coming to church.
Also, so many churches have sooooo many things they do! Our church has so many activities and sometimes if you miss something, people will be asking you where you were. Like we're supposed to be at the church everytime the doors are open. People do get burnt out.
I can see both sides of it though. I do think it is better to go to church and be with other believers. But I also believe there are very strong Christians who never step foot in a church building.

bigdAddyweAve423

1st November 2006, 10:29 AM

Church, I think, needs to be soething you want to do. I feel if you dont want to go, then you wont get out of Church what you should.

Starcrystal

1st November 2006, 11:12 AM

It sounds like you have your prioritys mixed up.
You should cut some things that keep you so far down.
Like cable tv, certian foods, and unnecessary things like this.

Also get on track to get a better job, or and a cheaper place to live. Or a more convienant place to live.

It sounds like you and your wife are out of shape.
12 hours does you in???
I'm out of shape and I have been doing 16 - 18 hr days 5 to 6 days a week lately(pushing to attain a better lifestyle, but this is very very short time). I need a car, because I'm a burden to peole in church, and I'm looking to move right next to the church.

Revise
- Goto school, or learn a better trade.
- Cut spending, this is a sin and you're family is the one paying for it.
- Workout......even when you're tired. It will extremely help with your energy level, and your attitude on life.

:sigh:
What? Cable TV? HA! We don't even own a TV set, let alone have cable or satelite! I don't even listen to radio every day - maybe twice a week! maybe.

Certain foods? I don't eat swine. I don't buy junk food. In fact we eat about as cheap as we can go. But try to keep it healthy as well - poultry, rice, lots of garlic, Tuna, salmon (canned). We still have tomatoes from the garden....

A better "job" or cheaper place to live? Wow, do people really take things for granted! My "job" is on my land and 10 - 11 hours of the day is caring for my child as well as working HARD work cutting & splitting wood, carrying stones up to 100+ lbs, carpentry woork, hauling brush, burning leaves & brush. I don't even own a wheelbarrow so the 3' rounds of Hickory and the White Oak I have to carry by hand from 150 - 250' away from the house.

It took my wife awhile to find a job at $7.63 an hour. The only other jobs available were mostly part time and 5.15 - 6.00 an hour. I though I posted that before, no?

As far as a cheaper place to live? How cheaper can you get? We worked hard to save up so we could buy our own land then the materials to build the house. Our only property expenses are yearly taxes and the electric bill. Yes we have to buy more building supplies but technically we could survive in the place we have. Everyone lived this way 200 years ago, didn't even have electricity.
What we could NOT afford is to pay a landlord rent or some bank a mortgage. Our place is bought and paid for. How many people can say that?
Convenient? We sold our Oregon land because it was inconvenient being 24 miles from town and 10 of those miles on rough dirt & gravel roads. We are now 7 miles from town and 1 mile of dirt road.... but we're still 32 miles from the nearest Wal-mart :eek:

Out of shape? Well, I'm not in the shape I used to be but I am also burnt out from doing what you do now (so please be careful!) I worked the 16 hour days and I've also endured several work injuries that affect me but I am still able to do what I do.

Go to school or learn a better trade? I went to school. I don't have time to wait for some degree, I am not able to be away from our place and our child. And I have no intention of working for others any more. Once we get our place up and running we plan on being self sufficient and making what income we need by home based business. We have several options & goals but for the next year or so we must live as we are until we get there.

5000 posts indicates I have time to surf on the computer? Do you realize I've been a member since early 2004 and most of my posts were from a time I had a home computer or could spend hours at college on their computer? That was 2004 - 2005. Right now I get to town 2 hours a day and I spend some time every morning on the web and to do whatever shopping needs done, calls made, etc. I also type pretty fast so I can rack up 10 posts in 20 or 30 minutes pretty easily ;)

Starcrystal

1st November 2006, 11:23 AM

As far as the "debate" ensuing about whether or not "church" is necessary or whether one can worship on their own, I actually believe both "sides" to be correct.
We shouldn't try to force people to go to a church building, but neither should we completely denounce the churches in order to worship on our own or with family.
We don't need church to be saved. Paul is the one who instituted Sunday worship & meeting the first day of the week. Jesus honored the sabbath. On the other hand we should fellowship with like minded believers. In todays world that usually means gathering at a church building.

I just want to clarify that maybe the title of this topic throws some people off. I do not mean church itself is a burden. It is a Spirit filled & Spirit led congregation and I would not even go to some dead sardis like church or lukewarm Laodician church. I do understand there are some smaller communities where the only available churches are dead, maybe not even born again! Not ours. The church itself is fine. Nothing wrong with our church itself. It is the getting out the door to go that was the "burden."

christianmomof3

1st November 2006, 11:37 AM

Many times my wife and I stay home, lay down and watch our church pastor preach via Podcast. After a long, hard week of work...we just don't feel like going out.
:(
That is so sad.
The "church" is not a spectator event.
It is not sitting around your house or in a building listening to a pastor.
I pray that you will find a way to enjoy Christ with other Christians.

The Church is us.

The church is the Body of Christ.
It is the believers gathered together functioning as His Body, living Him, enjoying Him together, contacting the Lord together and expressing Christ.
The Lord is not going to come back because people are sitting on their sofas watching pastors on tv.
The Lord is coming back when He has a mature bride - a built up Body of believers who are expressing and representing Him.

But this still doesn't explain where people are getting Baptized once the churches are shut down.. if we let all the local churches die out, are we going to set up baptismal meetings separately for new converts?... doubful. And if we do that, WHY? We already have that function in place, AT CHURCH now.
(and whatever we set up in it's place, STILL ENDS UP BECOMING "CHURCH" traditions we do - separately, elsewhere).

People can be baptized wherever there is water. Any Christian can baptize someone. I was baptized in someone's bathtub in their house.
This summer I saw 23 jr. high age young people baptized in a swimming pool at a camp.
That house was not a "church" nor was the camp.
People are the church.
The church is the Body of Christ, not a building or an institution.
The church does not need the clergy and laity system which nullifies the function of the members of the Body.
Wherever two are three are gathered in His name, He is there.

Yes, we need to have local churches - they are the local expression and gatherings of the saints. But, they are not the goal. They are not the universal Body of Christ.

msbojingles

1st November 2006, 12:10 PM

......I used to lead a bible study wednesday nights, so that was church.....

......It's just terrible when one or both of us dreads having to get ready to go out the door, even if we enjoy everything once we get there. :)

I have to admit....I really don't even like Sunday morning service anymore. And being part of the Praise team, have to be there an hour early to run through the songs and make sure the sound is set.... I dread Sunday mornings too! And I mean DREAD...and I really don't believe God ever intended it to be that way. (Some day of "rest".....) The church I used to go to, I really did like it, I guess the Spirit was a bit more welcome there....but since our move...I think I'm in another world! Plus sometimes the formality of it, the "structuredness".......But ANYWAYS...

I have ALWAYS enjoyed interactive bible study much more than a "sermon." Our bible study group could pray together - sometimes that's all we would do is just pray, we could sing together, cry together, and most importantly, we learned straight out of the God's Word together. And to be honest, I believe that is the heart and soul of what our gatherings should be. Not just someone standing and telling us what he (or she) believes the bible says, but us looking together through the scriptures, with the Holy Spirit shedding light, and talking with each other about how to apply these things to our lives.

If time is the factor - choose which one brings the most life to your (and family's) walk in Jesus Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:19
... I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life...

linssue55

1st November 2006, 12:40 PM

Nadiine

1st November 2006, 02:03 PM

Church, I think, needs to be soething you want to do. I feel if you dont want to go, then you wont get out of Church what you should.

This post hits the nail on the head! thank you for getting to the bottom of it.

THIS STATES WE'RE LOOKING AT WHAT WE GET OUT OF CHURCH, RATHER THAN WHAT WE GIVE (WORSHIP - OFFERING) TO GOD.

One hour one week is too much to give? I say this to my own shame.

That says it all and where our focus is: US/GETTING/RECEIVING.
Rather than
GIVING/WORSHIPPING/SERVING.

(and again, GOD established the gathering of believers the first day of the week. Church is not "man made" or ordained by man).

We must think that we know more than God does about what we need spiritually?

All in all, after being active in this thread, I have to say this has helped me spiritually because it helped motivate me out of my own apathetic stupor and selfish viewpoints.
I want more out of my walk and God deserves alot more than I'm currently giving Him of myself & my time.
:bow:

Nadiine

1st November 2006, 02:52 PM

Why do we have to have a church building to baptize someone? In the Bible, people were baptized in the rivers, not in a church building.
And a minister doesn't have to be the one to baptize another. As long as the other person is a believer, they can baptize someone.
So, no, we don't have to have a church building in order to baptize someone.
As for church being a burden, yeah, sometimes it can become that way. There have been times I haven't really wanted to get up and go to church. Not because I don't want to worship God, but because of all the stupid stuff that keeps going on in our church. I just get tired of all of it sometimes and it can affect the way I feel about coming to church.
Also, so many churches have sooooo many things they do! Our church has so many activities and sometimes if you miss something, people will be asking you where you were. Like we're supposed to be at the church everytime the doors are open. People do get burnt out.
I can see both sides of it though. I do think it is better to go to church and be with other believers. But I also believe there are very strong Christians who never step foot in a church building.

I have said repeatedly I don't believe you have to be at church everytime the doors are open, 24/7... I think I stated that in nearly every post. =)

And I agreed, sometimes we don't feel like going.
I have no problem with that either - we ALL go thru times like that. I have no problem skipping a week here & there or feeling guilt about it.

I'm speaking of the complete rejection of it by so many modern day Christians today as if it's just something we can cast-off and don't NEED if we don't feel like it.

In fact, someone elses post basically stated: "if you don't feel like going, then it's your spirit telling you that it's not for you personally"...

Since when does our flesh NOT fight the Spirit?
We dont' Naturally want to obey God or fight sin... these are things we have to work to do in obedience. (sacrifice).
According to that member, anytime our Flesh rises up, we're to think "oh, I must not need to do or say this or that becuz I don't want to do it"!???

But again, there are ALOT of reasons a community NEEDS a local church in it. ARE WE THINKING OF THE LOST and where they are to turn when they decide they want to go to church for their spiritual issues?
I can gaurantee the local Jeh. Wit. and Mormon tabernacles will be open for business and ready to recieve them with open arms!

ARE WE EVEN THINKING OF ANYONE BUT OURSELVES and what WE get out of it (after we're already saved?).
Amazing how we're focusing on ourselves. I think 'bigAddy's post was enlightening (at least for me).

The truth is, if we as a body do not actively support (incl. financially) our local Christian churches (if ALL christians held this attitude), they would predominantly dissappear.
And i ask, IS THAT GOD'S WILL that they all die out when He established it for us?

In my understanding of Revelation, it's when the church is REMOVED [lampstand/candlesticks removed], that it's a judgment by God, NOT something we should have no concern about:

Rev 1:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev001.html#20) ... The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches (this is directly refering to bodies of main churches in certain locations; not some scattered believers).
Rev 2:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev002.html#4) Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev002.html#5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Nadiine

1st November 2006, 03:10 PM

To: OutsideTheGate- (on previous page)

I disagree with most of your reply for too many reasons to list.
You seem to be assuming many things with a faulty premise.

If I feel 'burdened' at all, it certainly isn't because I do too much for God, but not nearly enough - and adding 1 hour a week (if that) isn't nearly enough when I consider all God has done for me and how He blesses me.

If you care to, you can browse thru my other detailed posts here which directly relate to some of the positions held in your post.

GreatFaith

1st November 2006, 04:58 PM

Nadiine, a house is a meeting place. The church is much larger in scope, for it is called the church of Ephesus or the church of Corinth, etc in the Bible. The church is not a building, so that definition is wrong. A church is not a denomination either. And a church is not a congregation. There are only two ways the church is defined in the Bible: 1) the body of Christ as a whole, 2) church of Jerusalem or a church of Antioch, etc. There was no Christmas or Easter in the first century church period. Nor do you go to the church unless you are unsaved. The church is already saved. Christians have a religion, a relationship with Christ. When you invite people to assembly, just say to them would you like to come to a church meeting? for that is what it is. It is not the church, for the church is the whole city of believers and defined as such in the Word of God, not just one congregation or a congregational system we call denominations. I think the issue here before us is Satan has got his hands into the confusion and changed the meaning of church and lots of people are deceived. I pray for those who have a spirit of discernment to receive this truth and abide in it.

GreatFaith

1st November 2006, 07:29 PM

Notice in this context of how we see the word church used in the Scriptures that there should also be no greater positions of work for the church than the operational boundaries of a bunch of different churches in his area that Paul settled on before he was martyred. After Paul travelled to many regions, he settled on an area of work. May God rise up more apostles to find their area of churches, perhaps the area of Texas or the area of Ohio, etc. None are higher than such a position. No popes and no men in charge of whole continents.

New_Wineskin

2nd November 2006, 11:10 AM

We *are* the church no matter where we are . We don't *go to* - we *are* . Whenever one is with another christian , they *are* assembling . No need for scheduled and outlined meetings in expensive buildings . Those don't define "church" .

Starcrystal

2nd November 2006, 11:19 AM

I also want to clarify that on my own I am able to get out the door early and with minimal effort. When I come to town in the morning I leave Lisa and our son at home. I think the "burden" occurs on Sunday because we have to get the baby ready, Lisa is tired and it's one of the few days she has to rest and so she can get pretty ornery when she feels she has to get up and get ready to go someplace. What becomes a burden to me is all of this combined, and living in a small place tripping over each other (and the cat) just to do simple things like getting dressed, make coffee, eat breakfast.
Yet, she too enjoys services once we are actually there. And while I could go on my own like I do Sunday evenings, then she would be missing out. It's like she does want to go but it's a pain getting out the door.

SUNSTONE

2nd November 2006, 12:07 PM

:sigh:
What? Cable TV? HA! We don't even own a TV set, let alone have cable or satelite! I don't even listen to radio every day - maybe twice a week! maybe.

Certain foods? I don't eat swine. I don't buy junk food. In fact we eat about as cheap as we can go. But try to keep it healthy as well - poultry, rice, lots of garlic, Tuna, salmon (canned). We still have tomatoes from the garden....

A better "job" or cheaper place to live? Wow, do people really take things for granted! My "job" is on my land and 10 - 11 hours of the day is caring for my child as well as working HARD work cutting & splitting wood, carrying stones up to 100+ lbs, carpentry woork, hauling brush, burning leaves & brush. I don't even own a wheelbarrow so the 3' rounds of Hickory and the White Oak I have to carry by hand from 150 - 250' away from the house.

It took my wife awhile to find a job at $7.63 an hour. The only other jobs available were mostly part time and 5.15 - 6.00 an hour. I though I posted that before, no?

As far as a cheaper place to live? How cheaper can you get? We worked hard to save up so we could buy our own land then the materials to build the house. Our only property expenses are yearly taxes and the electric bill. Yes we have to buy more building supplies but technically we could survive in the place we have. Everyone lived this way 200 years ago, didn't even have electricity.
What we could NOT afford is to pay a landlord rent or some bank a mortgage. Our place is bought and paid for. How many people can say that?
Convenient? We sold our Oregon land because it was inconvenient being 24 miles from town and 10 of those miles on rough dirt & gravel roads. We are now 7 miles from town and 1 mile of dirt road.... but we're still 32 miles from the nearest Wal-mart :eek:

Out of shape? Well, I'm not in the shape I used to be but I am also burnt out from doing what you do now (so please be careful!) I worked the 16 hour days and I've also endured several work injuries that affect me but I am still able to do what I do.

Go to school or learn a better trade? I went to school. I don't have time to wait for some degree, I am not able to be away from our place and our child. And I have no intention of working for others any more. Once we get our place up and running we plan on being self sufficient and making what income we need by home based business. We have several options & goals but for the next year or so we must live as we are until we get there.

5000 posts indicates I have time to surf on the computer? Do you realize I've been a member since early 2004 and most of my posts were from a time I had a home computer or could spend hours at college on their computer? That was 2004 - 2005. Right now I get to town 2 hours a day and I spend some time every morning on the web and to do whatever shopping needs done, calls made, etc. I also type pretty fast so I can rack up 10 posts in 20 or 30 minutes pretty easily ;)

Sorry if I seemed a little short on the post before, I was running out of time to finish that post.

Ok looking over your situation, the only thing I can see why you would be exhausted is if you were out of shape.
If you don't do cardio excercises your heart isn't going to be as strong as it should be.
And if you did cardio the right way, you sure wouldn't be tired unless there was something physically wrong with you.

But other than that, there should be no excuse why you can't have 2 days off. Like Saturday and Sunday, or Sunday and Monday, etc.

I've lived on land where there was no electric, we had an out house for a bathroom, I had to chop all the wood, we used wood stoves, and I had to hand pump all the water.
On top of that I had a 9 hr a day job in the factory, plus I went to the gym to work out.

Nadiine

2nd November 2006, 12:16 PM

I completely agree . We *are* the church no matter where we are . We don't *go to* - we *are* . Whenever one is with another christian , they *are* assembling . No need for scheduled and outlined meetings in expensive buildings . Those don't define "church" .

This isn't what Paul taught when he gave all the detailed guidelines on church gathering for the corporate body of worshippers in 1 Corinthians 5 and 1 Timothy.
The entire NT is full of guidelines for a group of believers in formal worship.
God gave guidelines/laws for TEMPLE worship in the OT.
They were His people too, but they gathered & brought tithes & offerings to Him.

Simply because you define "church" as US, does NOT remove the direct examples and directions of scripture.

God ESTABLISHED corporate gathering of the body of believers together. It's not MANS invention, it's HIS.
He gave Paul the instructions to write out for us.
Financial giving to God's ministry is HIS invention as well. (whatever ministry it may be).
So I guess once again, we know more than He does what we should do or what we need spiritually?

These types of statements sound more to me like we're trying to cling to a loophole so we can get out of it on a technicality or something?? :help:

I always ask, WHY DON'T WE WANT TO GO to gather together to worship the Lord and unite in spirit?
I think that's the better question, not if we have to, but WHY WE NEVER WANT TO.

The SAME believers in the NT who corporately gathered together, and gave offerings WERE ALSO THE BODY OF CHRIST... it doesn't nullify anything for us and it sure didn't keep them from assembling as 'churches'. :sigh:

GreatFaith

2nd November 2006, 02:40 PM

Nadiine, It is not that New_Wineskin defines the church as us, but that the Bible does, so New_Wineskin agrees with God's loving Word. This in no way prevents, as you accuse, of regular assembly, only that you are misusing the term, church, since it is not church you go to as you say, but the meeting of the church. One will find as you misuse the term church, you don't seek to promote the church accordingly such as the church of Ephesus or the church of Smyrna in the churches of Asia Minor. All you see is your denomination or system not according to the churches as nothing smaller or greater than these places.

GreatFaith

2nd November 2006, 02:50 PM

What you might find interesting is both New_Wineskin and Nadiine both call themselves non-denominational, but this is against God's will too. Why you ask? Simple. You remember the Bible telling us not to say we are of Apollos or of Cephas. This is denominational. But do you also remember the Bible saying in the same context, not to say you are of Christ, because this divides falsely as well. What compares to this statement? When one says they are non-denominational. This too puffs up. So what is the solution? Say you are a Christian, that is all; you need no qualifier or special adjective like Messianic promoting Judaism or Roman or Eastern promoting Jezebel or marriage of state and church, those that call themselves Nicolatians. This is against God's will.

RonnyRulz

2nd November 2006, 05:55 PM

They already perform these very functions.
Why are we just allowing them to shut down & dissapear

Because they don't already perform those very functions. I can't speak for all churches, but some churches are a hindrance to God's Will and do the opposite of performing the correct functions. That's why God has to use people as individuals, because churches become religious, traditional, and churches (and the leaders) have a tendency to listen to themselves more than they listen to God.

It is human nature for those in leadership to become prideful, self-wise, self-righteous, etc. That's common human nature. What's also common nature is churches turning away from relationship with God and towards religion of Man. It's common for a church to go from spirit-walked spirit-filled spirit-led to a church that opposes God's Will.

The reason some churches close down is because GOD CLOSES THEM DOWN. Just because people say the name of Jesus doesn't mean they are not God's enemy. Just because it's a house with a steeple doesn't mean God will not utterly destroy the very foundation of that house w/ steeple because of disobedience, turning away from his will, and/or self-righteousness.

God has closed many churches, and will continue to do so. To say that churches already perform the correct functions does not apply to every area of the world, because it's very rare to find a church that doesn't go from spirit-led to man-led. From church of christ to church of man. From vessel of God's Will to enemy of His Will. God closes churches just like he opens them. And he will continue to open more of them, unless He gets sick of the convential steeple church and switches to a different kind of church, (such as the temples of God, a.k.a. human bodies of his disciples becoming the church, not box w/ steeple) Who knows what God has in plan for us, for we are the church, and maybe He'll open more steeples up, maybe not. Who knows but God alone.

We are letting them shut down and disappear, probably mainly because God is shutting them down and making them disappear.

The worst enemy of Jesus Christ isn't Satan. With just one drop of blood, with just one breathe, Satan instantly is defeated. The worst enemy to Christianity is christians. God can destroy Satan with one ounce of His Power, but God gives free-will to His children, and so He will not force someone to not be his enemy. He allows us to choose to be with him or against him. The greatest enemy to Christianity is Christians themselves. Satan doesn't even come close, he's a wimp.

Let me put it this way. You are rather for God or against him. If the church is for him, it won't be closed down and deserted. Instead, God will make it overflow with life and His Presence. But if the church is against him, it will close down because it is cursed. You have no need to fear that good churches will be closed down, because they can't be. God won't allow a good thing to be destroyed by anything, unless the pastors and congregation all decide to quit on God, which I guess is possible. But for the most part, unless the pastors give up and throw away God (for man's religion, or their own pride) then you have no fear of churches closing down. A church that's overflowing with God's favor will not close. But a church that opposes the Will of God will die.

GreatFaith

2nd November 2006, 08:34 PM

I don't know who you quoted Ronny, but I noticed you are using the term, church, improperly since those who are saved are once saved always saved. We never shut down. We are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for eternity.

RonnyRulz

3rd November 2006, 05:45 AM

Although I don't disagree with you the once-saved always saved thing is debatable. It's a belief/opinion, not a fact. (Well, unless God Himself told you, then I guess it is a fact. But only a fact to you and others whom God has told firsthand.) Just a heads up, because not everyone believes that, although I believe more that all will enter Heaven than I do you can lose salvation. Unless God Himself came down from Heaven to tell you firsthand that once saved, always saved, it would be best to say "it's my belief" before you say that. Not because you don't have the faith to believe that, but because you don't know 100% if that's a fact or not. If you think you know it's 100% a fact, but God hasn't came down from Heaven and firsthand told you, then you're deceiving yourself. Man's Wisdom isn't 100% a fact, at best it's hazzy and only might be close to the truth. Just a friendly suggest, people will listen to you if you say "In my belief" or "From what I know", but if you say it like it's a 100% confirmed fact (And don't follow up by a story of how God came down from Heaven to tell you firsthand) people won't listen to you. They'll ignore you. If you close your mind, they'll close theirs. It's just human nature to naturally be open-minded to the open-minded and closed-minded to the close-minded.

If you don't like my above advice, ignore it. Just a suggestion, it's your opinion if you like it or not. It's not an opinion, however, that people are closed-minded to the closed-minded, and are going to be more likely to listen to you if you say "In my belief," or "From my experience", or if you have a personal story about an encounter with God. That's just how most humans work. But if you don't care for my suggestion, ignore it, consider me a fool, and move on. So anyways though,

I was referring to the church as in, what most people's view and definition of church is. Big buildings with steeples. I wasn't referring to the real church, which is God's people.

Nadiine

3rd November 2006, 08:36 AM

Because they don't already perform those very functions. I can't speak for all churches, but some churches are a hindrance to God's Will and do the opposite of performing the correct functions.
It is human nature for those in leadership to become prideful, self-wise, self-righteous, etc. That's common human nature. What's also common nature is churches turning away from relationship with God and towards religion of Man. It's common for a church to go from spirit-walked spirit-filled spirit-led to a church that opposes God's Will.

The reason some churches close down is because GOD CLOSES THEM DOWN.

God has closed many churches, and will continue to do so. To say that churches already perform the correct functions does not apply to every area of the world, because it's very rare to find a church that doesn't go from spirit-led to man-led. But for the most part, unless the pastors give up and throw away God (for man's religion, or their own pride) then you have no fear of churches closing down. A church that's overflowing with God's favor will not close. But a church that opposes the Will of God will die.

I actually agree with alot of this. YES. But the context of the issue/my posts were regarding, ALL CHRISTIANS CARRYING A 'DISDAIN' AND ATTACK ON CHURCH GOING.
In my view, if it was the biblical teaching NOT to go to any, then we would have ZERO formal church places to attend. (and the NT examples of it would be wrong as well).

Of course there are bad churches and bad leaders. I agree. The entire NT is repleat with continual warnings of false prophets/teachers and wolves who would secretly come in with heresies and not spare the Flock.!
(but this is why God calls us to STUDY the scriptures, so we won't be decieved/harmed when they do come & fall for their lies).

And I've come out of 2 churches that I think SHOULD HAVE CLOSED (1 did)...
Just becuz people start a church doesn't mean God actually appointed that church to open or the Pastor to lead it.

It's safer when some churches close down!! (if you've heard the stats on the latest batch of seminary graduates of the past 10 yrs, you'll really start noticing the sorry state of the churches yet to come by what they reject of central biblical truths!). :sigh: :cry:

But, I believe we're very close to the time of Jesus' return and we all know what God prophesied about that time & how it gets worse & false teachers abound! We're there.
2Ti 4:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti004.html#3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ti/2Ti004.html#4)And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables (fiction, invention, falsehood).

But again, the majority of my posts are forcing the issue to those who attack formal/corporate church gathering, what the outcome is if ALL Christians refused to go to church and carried the disdain against it.

I'm basically of the belief that it's a form of rebellion according to my understanding of the bible.

Since God always keeps a remnant and there will always be genuine Christians, then we CAN find GOOD CHURCHES to attend and enjoy fellowship & worship of God no matter what the sign of the times are. :angel: :amen:

I hope that clarifies things?

ps to all: I will continue to call Christian's gathering corporately in one place as, "church" (Jesus called it His "House") because that is the understood English term for it.
I have no intention of being nitpicky on minor technicalities when trying to [understandably] relay a general principle and possibly cause further confusion or stumbling by the new specification.

Starcrystal

3rd November 2006, 11:37 AM

Sorry if I seemed a little short on the post before, I was running out of time to finish that post.

Ok looking over your situation, the only thing I can see why you would be exhausted is if you were out of shape.
If you don't do cardio excercises your heart isn't going to be as strong as it should be.
And if you did cardio the right way, you sure wouldn't be tired unless there was something physically wrong with you.

But other than that, there should be no excuse why you can't have 2 days off. Like Saturday and Sunday, or Sunday and Monday, etc.

I've lived on land where there was no electric, we had an out house for a bathroom, I had to chop all the wood, we used wood stoves, and I had to hand pump all the water.
On top of that I had a 9 hr a day job in the factory, plus I went to the gym to work out.

Thanks. And I admitted that I wasn't in the shape I was when I was your age. I hope there is nothing physically wrong other than what appears. I did have some respiratory damage and joint damage from lead poisoning years ago. And I used to smoke cigs which didn't help. I also have nerve damage and tendonitis to a degree from too many repetitive jobs. So that equates to pain more than tiredness.
But when I was 32 I could work long hours and still be up at 4:30 AM doing Bible research, and fishing after work,or jogging, weightlifting & such.
Wouldn't you call chopping wood a cardiovascular excercise??