Predestination??

[sawitch]

I could hardly believe my ears when our officer preached predestination from the platform yesterday. She even quoted Calvin.

Do you think it's OK for officers to preach what they believe or should they stick to the party line? :scratch:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

I hate to admit this, but I don't really understand what pre destination is.

So how it would sit in relation to Army beliefs, is something I couldn't comment on.

But just for the record, this is the 'party line'

We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship.

We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.

We believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the Divine and human natures are united, so that He is truly and properly God and truly and properly man.

We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency, but by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall, all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.

We believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation.

We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.

We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.

We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We believe in the immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, in the general judgement at the end of the world, in the eternal happiness of the righteous, and in the endless punishment of the wicked.

[Abiel]

I was once told that nearly all officers belve in some form of predestination or other. This one doesn't.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Be kinda cool if someone would give me a brief outline of what predestination is.

Then I can make a valid contribution to this thread

[Abiel]

It's the idea that some people are 'predestined' (ie God has elected them in advance) to be saved, others He had pre-destined to be damned. This is more than the foreknowledge of a person's soul that God would have by virtue of being omni-everything.

I expect the wiki has some stuff on it

Can't be doing with it myself- mind you that is a very basic understanding of it.

[Abiel]

http://www.christianforums.com/t2719762-wiki-single-predestination.html

http://www.christianforums.com/t2703399-wiki-double-predestination.html

[JoshuaCh1v9]

It's the idea that some people are 'predestined' (ie God has elected them in advance) to be saved, others He had pre-destined to be damned. This is more than the foreknowledge of a person's soul that God would have by virtue of being omni-everything.

I expect the wiki has some stuff on it

Can't be doing with it myself- mind you that is a very basic understanding of it.

Ah i see.

I'm with you then

Jesus said.

"I am the way the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except by me"

And I also believe what John3:16 said about whosoever

[JoshuaCh1v9]

However, I do have a problem here.

And it's Judas.

How much choice did that guy have?

Was he predestined to betray Jesus and cause his death?

If he was then should he be condemmed for something he had no control over?

If he didn't, then what would have happened if he hadn't done it?

I often wonder about that one

[Abiel]

Indeed- predestination though holds him totally responsible. So you are predestined for hell, and its your fault.

It's kind of- we all deserve hell. That is the bottom line- the default posotion if you will. So if God in His mercy saves some of us that's a bonus.

It's not my cup of tea. To me this God is an un speakable tyrant.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Indeed- predestination though holds him totally responsible. So you are predestined for hell, and its your fault.

It's kind of- we all deserve hell. That is the bottom line- the default posotion if you will. So if God in His mercy saves some of us that's a bonus.

It's not my cup of tea. To me this God is an un speakable tyrant.

I agree. i don't buy it either.

I just think judy boy got a bum rap all ends up.

If he was predestined to it and still wound up in hell, then he loses through no fault of his own.

If he wasn't predestined, then the whole basis of our faith rested on which way he jumped.

If he hadn't done it there would have been no crucifiction and no resurection and no Christianity.

My only thought is that the repentence he showed afterwards may have been cucial.

I heard it said that although he did have the choice, God knew in advance what that choice was going to be.

I dunno.

Guess it's one of those things we'll not find out this side of heaven.

Doesn't alter my view on predestination though.

Not for me.

Whosoever will may come.

[sawitch]

Thanks Abiel for clarifying the issue about predestination. If I understand it correctly the Army's official stance is 'Arminian' - ie: in line with Andy's 'whosoever'
My point was that whatever an officer's personal beliefs they should stick to the Army's beliefs when they're preaching. I don't personally care what an individual thinks but officers should be careful when they have the priviledge of preaching. It's just a pity that we can't interrupt the sermon to query things!

[Abiel]

You most certainly can query them afterwards. It would be impossible to preach about something I didn't believe in- so a calvinist officer couldn't possibly preach arminianism and keep their integrity.

[sawitch]

Abiel
I agree completely that nobody should preach on something they don't believe in. If an officer's views are not in line with Army teaching and doctrine perhaps they should avoid those topics when preaching from an Army platform.
I would also discuss anything I was concerned about privately with the officer, but by then the word has been heard by the congregation.
On the way home yesterday my hubby, who is a musician rather than a theologian, said 'I didn't know we were supposed to believe in predestination?'


:scratch:

[Adammi]

Andy, I find it nearly impossible to discuss predestination without doing so in context of the five points of Calvinism, here is an excellent (though somewhat lengthy) synopsis of the five doctrines of grace.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1985/1487_What_We_Believe_About_the_Five_Points_of_Calvinism/

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Thanks Abiel for clarifying the issue about predestination. If I understand it correctly the Army's official stance is 'Arminian' - ie: in line with Andy's 'whosoever'
My point was that whatever an officer's personal beliefs they should stick to the Army's beliefs when they're preaching. I don't personally care what an individual thinks but officers should be careful when they have the priviledge of preaching. It's just a pity that we can't interrupt the sermon to query things!

Thats why they call the pulpit 'cowards castle' becuase it would take a brave person indeed to challenge something in mid sermon.

[Evangelina]

It can be easy to word something badly and have people understand it in a way completely different from what was meant. Set up a time, and have a chat to your officer about it. Ask what he meant, how it relates to the official Army position, etc. I've done this a couple of times when our leader/preacher (we don't have a minister) said something sus during his sermon. Turns out he was horrified at how I took it (prosperity doctrine) and was careful to explain it more thoroughly the next week.

It gets more complicated than just 'Calvinism' and 'Armenian' when discussing predestination etc... and I think that's another good reason to find out from the officer himself exactly what was meant.

PS. I've also been known to stop an officer in his tracks and contest the biblical truth of what he was saying (in a class setting)... not my usual style, but it seemed the right thing to do at the time :D Poor guy.

[JoshuaCh1v9]

It can be easy to word something badly and have people understand it in a way completely different from what was meant. Set up a time, and have a chat to your officer about it. Ask what he meant, how it relates to the official Army position, etc. I've done this a couple of times when our leader/preacher (we don't have a minister) said something sus during his sermon. Turns out he was horrified at how I took it (prosperity doctrine) and was careful to explain it more thoroughly the next week.

It gets more complicated than just 'Calvinism' and 'Armenian' when discussing predestination etc... and I think that's another good reason to find out from the officer himself exactly what was meant.

PS. I've also been known to stop an officer in his tracks and contest the biblical truth of what he was saying (in a class setting)... not my usual style, but it seemed the right thing to do at the time :D Poor guy.


lol. I sure am glad that you are on OUR side in this war:D :D :D

[amused]

I hope I am allowed to post in here. I am not a member of the salvation army, I have been thinking about checking the one out down the road. I love that you guys reach out to the community and I think i want to be a part of that. The Salvos are quite respected by a lot of people. ANyway moving right along.

I just can't believe in predestination at all. I just dont see the point of living in a predestined world. If I thought for a minute that it didnt matter what we did in our lives, we were either going to be going to heaven or going to hell, I just wouldnt want to live at all. There would be no point to getting out of bed in the morning for me. Luckily I believe in the free will that God has given to us, to believe or not to believe. I think its the hope through Jesus that keeps me getting up out of bed in the morning to face another day in this harsh world at times. I wish everyone had that hope. Its hard to live with hope at times, I would never want to live without it.

cheers ;)

[JoshuaCh1v9]

I hope I am allowed to post in here. I am not a member of the salvation army, I have been thinking about checking the one out down the road. I love that you guys reach out to the community and I think i want to be a part of that. The Salvos are quite respected by a lot of people. ANyway moving right along.

I just can't believe in predestination at all. I just dont see the point of living in a predestined world. If I thought for a minute that it didnt matter what we did in our lives, we were either going to be going to heaven or going to hell, I just wouldnt want to live at all. There would be no point to getting out of bed in the morning for me. Luckily I believe in the free will that God has given to us, to believe or not to believe. I think its the hope through Jesus that keeps me getting up out of bed in the morning to face another day in this harsh world at times. I wish everyone had that hope. Its hard to live with hope at times, I would never want to live without it.

cheers ;)

First of all welcome to CyberCorps, and you are most welcome to post here.

Secondly, I hope you do decide to visit your local Salvation Army Corps soon. Let us know how you get on if you do

And finally, I agree with you on the predestination thing:)

[Abiel]

you are so welcome!

[Athanasian Creed]

Predestination is most definitely a biblical doctrine - the question is WHAT we are predestined for/to. Calvinists believe that God predestines some to eternal life (His elect) and reprobates the rest (the VAST majority)

Unfortunately, that is NOT what the Word of God teaches. The Apostle Paul dealt with predestination and what it entails -


Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the word "foreknow" - it is the key to understanding predestination. It is the same with the doctrine of election, another biblical doctrine -

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

It is not, as Calvinism teaches, that God predestines to salvation or damnation or that He elects arbitrarily as the above verse prove.

Predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Elect according to God's foreknowledge (of who would believe and who would not believe) unto obedience.

Salvation is by grace through faith, God's grace + our faith. Synergistic not monergistic.

The Army (at least the Corps i attended) was definitely Arminian in it's belief, teaching and preaching. They preached salvation was for the "whosoever will", that Christ died for all men, that continuance in salvation is dependant upon "continued obedience unto Christ", that God's Spirit calls all men unto salvation but He can be resisted. As to the belief in "Total Depravity" i'm not sure as to the Army's stance on this.

My .02 cents. ;)



Ray :wave:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Paul may have preached predestination, but Jesus taught "whosoever"

And if there appears to be a disagreement between Jesus and Paul, then I'll go with Jesus every time and Paul lump it.

[Athanasian Creed]

Paul may have preached predestination, but Jesus taught "whosoever"

And if there appears to be a disagreement between Jesus and Paul, then I'll go with Jesus every time and Paul lump it.

Actually both preached "whosoever" and there would have been no disagreement whatsoever between Master and disciple.

That being said, as i said before, predestination IS a biblical doctrine (but not in the Calvinistic sense of the word) We are predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (predestined to special blessings only available to believers in Christ) We are NOT predestined arbitrarily by God to salvation (the elect) or to damnation (reprobation).

I believe that the SA, as a whole, would utter a hearty ":amen:" to the above! ;)



Ray :wave:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Actually both preached "whosoever" and there would have been no disagreement whatsoever between Master and disciple.

That being said, as i said before, predestination IS a biblical doctrine (but not in the Calvinistic sense of the word) We are predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (predestined to special blessings only available to believers in Christ) We are NOT predestined arbitrarily by God to salvation (the elect) or to damnation (reprobation).

I believe that the SA, as a whole, would utter a hearty ":amen:" to the above! ;)



Ray :wave:


In one respect I agree. But it is open to abuse.

Sounds a lot like the sort of thing that spawned the 'Health & Wealth' preaching which is currently being peddled in churches accross America, and has now arrived here as well.

[Athanasian Creed]

Paul may have preached predestination, but Jesus taught "whosoever"

And if there appears to be a disagreement between Jesus and Paul, then I'll go with Jesus every time and Paul lump it.

In one respect I agree. But it is open to abuse.

Sounds a lot like the sort of thing that spawned the 'Health & Wealth' preaching which is currently being peddled in churches accross America, and has now arrived here as well.

Agreed - the 'abuse' in this instance is called Calvinism, in all it's various flavours.

Calvinists can't even agree as to what their doctrines REALLY teaches! :eek:


Ray :wave:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Agreed - the 'abuse' in this instance is called Calvinism, in all it's various flavours.

Calvinists can't even agree as to what their doctrines REALLY teaches! :eek:


Ray :wave:lol. Not getting into that one.

In know absolutely nothing about calvinism so I can't comment

But these Wealth and Heallth guys scare me.

[Abiel]

At the moment I'm a bit low on both!

[JoshuaCh1v9]

At the moment I'm a bit low on both!

Tell me about it:D :D :D

[Mudfrog]

Thanks Abiel for clarifying the issue about predestination. If I understand it correctly the Army's official stance is 'Arminian' - ie: in line with Andy's 'whosoever'
My point was that whatever an officer's personal beliefs they should stick to the Army's beliefs when they're preaching. I don't personally care what an individual thinks but officers should be careful when they have the priviledge of preaching. It's just a pity that we can't interrupt the sermon to query things!
Predestination was a big thing for the Founder and he deliberately formulated the doctrines we hold to in order to root out any officers who might believe in election (predestination) and 'once saved always saved (eternal security).

However, it would be more accurate to say that we are wesleyan rather than Arminian. The reason for this is that we believe that without grace it is impossible to decide to follow Jesus. Arminians would say that anyone can simply decide; we don't because we believe in the calvinistic doctrine of total depravity which means that we are dead in sin and thewrefore cannot respond to the Gospel unless grace awakens us. Wesley called this 'prevenient grace' (grace that 'goes before'). In response to this prevenient grace, the sinner can reopent and believe and be given 'saving grace'.

There is nothing that we can contribute to our salvation - even our repentance is not enough. Salvation is all grace and nothing of our own effoirt of contribution. The only difference between Weesleyanism and Calvinism is that we believe Christ died for the whosoever (unlimited atonement) and the Calvinists believe that Christ died for the Church, the Elect (limited atonement).

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Predestination was a big thing for the Founder and he deliberately formulated the doctrines we hold to in order to root out any officers who might believe in election (predestination) and 'once saved always saved (eternal security).

However, it would be more accurate to say that we are wesleyan rather than Arminian. The reason for this is that we believe that without grace it is impossible to decide to follow Jesus. Arminians would say that anyone can simply decide; we don't because we believe in the calvinistic doctrine of total depravity which means that we are dead in sin and thewrefore cannot respond to the Gospel unless grace awakens us. Wesley called this 'prevenient grace' (grace that 'goes before'). In response to this prevenient grace, the sinner can reopent and believe and be given 'saving grace'.

There is nothing that we can contribute to our salvation - even our repentance is not enough. Salvation is all grace and nothing of our own effoirt of contribution. The only difference between Weesleyanism and Calvinism is that we believe Christ died for the whosoever (unlimited atonement) and the Calvinists believe that Christ died for the Church, the Elect (limited atonement).


Firstly, welcome to Cyber Corps Major.

Great to have you here with us.

Hope you will be here regularly, and get to know us all.

Secondly, great post. Explains a lot about the Army's stance on Predestination.

[Athanasian Creed]

...
But these Wealth and Health guys scare me.

They not only "scare" me but disgust me too (and i'm sure they do God as well) -

1 Timothy 6:5-6 (KJV) Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. ;)


Ray :wave:

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Wealth and mans obsession with it is probably warned against more than any other thing in the Bible.

Most Christians, just off the top of their heads, could come up with half a dozen references warning us of the dangers of wealth accumulation.

Biblical scholars probably many more.

Yet these guys try and make out that it is Gods will for His people.

Gimme a break.....

[Athanasian Creed]

Wealth and mans obsession with it is probably warned against more than any other thing in the Bible.

Most Christians, just off the top of their heads, could come up with half a dozen references warning us of the dangers of wealth accumulation.

Biblical scholars probably many more.

Yet these guys try and make out that it is Gods will for His people.

Gimme a break.....


Money is a wonderful slave but a lousy master!;)



Ray :wave:

[amused]

Thanks for that Joshua and Abiel. I have read some really cool stuff on this thread. I am really loving this discussion. I havent checked out the Salvos down the road yet, I really should get to it. Will let you know how I go.

I know 1 person who goes there, I am not sure to what capacity she is involved. I bumped into her one day in the shopping centre and hadnt seen her for years. Must be about 12 years. She totally rocks! I have very fond memories of her. She said that most of the people that go there are a lot older than me, but they have a good laugh and enjoy serving the community. Sounds fantastic to me!

cheers ;)

[JoshuaCh1v9]

Thanks for that Joshua and Abiel. I have read some really cool stuff on this thread. I am really loving this discussion. I havent checked out the Salvos down the road yet, I really should get to it. Will let you know how I go.

I know 1 person who goes there, I am not sure to what capacity she is involved. I bumped into her one day in the shopping centre and hadnt seen her for years. Must be about 12 years. She totally rocks! I have very fond memories of her. She said that most of the people that go there are a lot older than me, but they have a good laugh and enjoy serving the community. Sounds fantastic to me!

cheers ;)

Glad we could help.

Hope you get to the Army soon. Let us know how you get on:)

[whyperion]

Its all about change I suppose.

Hearing on the radio today about research into 'teenage' muggers , many of whom state they do this for 'kicks' or to gain 'respect' , one at times feels that some folk are 'chosen' to lead a different life , and certainly are more open to alternative ( christian - better ? ) lifestyles than others. Which makes it interesting to work out what real choices people have , it seems that inside them there is no desire to change , or is it that they have not met/read about / conversed with the right kind of person to influence them ?

With Respect to the question on Judas , above. I think I have an answer. I am convinced that Judas thought he was doing the RIGHT and CORRECT thing and that he expected a different outcome - for example either Jesus to ' Save Himself , come down from the cross and claim a Messianic Crown ' or for the Roman Governor not to persue the cruxifiction or for the Preistly Authorities not to press for a death penalty. Judas MAY also have been acting under the express instructions of Jesus , the phase in english "What you are going to do, do quickly" could be interpreted as an express instruction , rather than Jesus knowing what Judas had simply thought up for himself. Also Jesus had chosen the 12 disciples , knowing their Strengths , Weaknesses and the ways in which they were likley ( or would ) act in the kind of situations he would lead them into. At times we too can manage to do the'wrong' thing , with the very best of intentions , and that can often have more heartache and stress for us than the 'cold-hearted' villians above feel for their victims

[Athanasian Creed]

...

With Respect to the question on Judas , above. I think I have an answer. I am convinced that Judas thought he was doing the RIGHT and CORRECT thing and that he expected a different outcome - for example either Jesus to ' Save Himself , come down from the cross and claim a Messianic Crown ' or for the Roman Governor not to persue the cruxifiction or for the Preistly Authorities not to press for a death penalty. Judas MAY also have been acting under the express instructions of Jesus , the phase in english "What you are going to do, do quickly" could be interpreted as an express instruction , rather than Jesus knowing what Judas had simply thought up for himself. Also Jesus had chosen the 12 disciples , knowing their Strengths , Weaknesses and the ways in which they were likley ( or would ) act in the kind of situations he would lead them into. At times we too can manage to do the'wrong' thing , with the very best of intentions , and that can often have more heartache and stress for us than the 'cold-hearted' villians above feel for their victims

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into (Judas). Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Judas was under the control of Satan because he had dared to sale His Master for 30 pieces of silver - he was coveteous - a lover of money and was blinded by the thought of power. Jesus was fully aware of Satan's entering Judas and taking control of him. There was no virtue in what Judas did - neither did he do what he did out of pure motives. Jesus calls him "a devil" - John 6:70, and he is referred to as the "son of perdition" - John 17:12 (the only other referred to as such is the Antichrist :eek: - 2 Thess. 2:3)



Ray :wave:

[SallyAnn]

I had to ask my officer what she thought about this subject the other day because it was brought up in a subject between me and another person of a different (Christian) faith.
She told me that it depended on how the word predestination was defined. That of course we were all predestined but the Army does not agree with the 'only some will be saved because they were predestined'. Otherwise why did Jesus have to die for us:S And he did die, for 'whosoever'

[Athanasian Creed]

I had to ask my officer what she thought about this subject the other day because it was brought up in a subject between me and another person of a different (Christian) faith.
She told me that it depended on how the word predestination was defined. That of course we were all predestined but the Army does not agree with the 'only some will be saved because they were predestined'. Otherwise why did Jesus have to die for us:S And he did die, for 'whosoever'

That was a wise answer by the officer of your Corps. :thumbsup:

The doctrine of predestination is definitely a Biblical one - the question is, WHAT are we predestine for?? Some believe (wrongly so) that God arbitrarily predestines a few to be a part of the 'elect' (another Biblical tern) and eternal life. He also arbitrarily predestines the rest (the vast majority) to reprobation and eternal damnation! :scratch::eek: The term used for this is "double predestination" Biblically, we are predestined according to God's foreknowledge of who will accept His Son to be conformed to His image -

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

There is not one verse in Scripture that says we are arbitrarily predestined by God from eternity to eternal life or death!

Thank God the Army teaches the Biblical truth that God loves all, Christ died for all, salvation is for the "whosoever will" And that final salvation is dependent upon "continued obedience to Christ" as the Word clearly teaches! :thumbsup::amen:



Ray :wave:

[plmarquette]

Ephesians 1.5,11

A concept by Calvin , some times called Election , that God knows at birth , who will be saved and damned and nothing they do here , can change the final decision (fate)

Perhaps , it would be fair to say God knows who He will call and gift and what he has prepared (work) for them to do ...

Which boils down to a spin on the "free will " of man and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit ... that man can or can not refuse the offer that God makes them

[Athanasian Creed]

Ephesians 1.5,11

A concept by Calvin , some times called Election , that God knows at birth , who will be saved and damned and nothing they do here , can change the final decision (fate)

Predestination and election are Biblical doctrines, espoused by both Calvinists and Arminians. It would seem as if you didn't explain fully Calvinism's view of either predestination nor election. What you are speaking of is foreknowledge which, according to Calvinism, is something altogether different. Arminianism (of which the SA would fall) hold that God knows by foreknowledge who will/will not accept His Son. Calvinism holds that God arbitrarily picks a handful to inherit eternal life while again arbitrarily damning (reprobating) the vast majority of mankind to a Christless eternity. Anyone who reads the Gospel should clearly see that it is for the "whosoever will" Calvinism is often called 'fatalism' due to it's very extreme view of God's sovereignty. God can be sovereign all the while granting His intelligent creatures free will. It is a great gift from a sovereign God!


Perhaps , it would be fair to say God knows who He will call and gift and what he has prepared (work) for them to do ...

Which boils down to a spin on the "free will " of man and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit ... that man can or can not refuse the offer that God makes them

God's call goes out to all, without favouritism. And His free gift of salvation is for all, Christ died for all mankind and all, of their own volition accept/reject Christ and can surrender at the wooing of the Spirit or resist Him.

Those who God foreknows will accept Christ, He "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" as His workmanship (Eph 2:10) ;)



Ray :wave:



P.S. A question to Salvationists - does the Army teach 'Total Depravity'??:scratch:

[mlqurgw]

This was my first venture into this forum and it has been very enlightening. Being one who holds strongly to the five points, though not a follower of Calvin, this thread caught my eye. I find that the misconceptions are as rampant here as anywhere. Also given the statement of the doctrine the Salvation Army holds, I will no longer contribute to this organization.

[sawitch]

This was my first venture into this forum and it has been very enlightening. Being one who holds strongly to the five points, though not a follower of Calvin, this thread caught my eye. I find that the misconceptions are as rampant here as anywhere. Also given the statement of the doctrine the Salvation Army holds, I will no longer contribute to this organization.

It's a pity that you feel you cannot contribute to an organisation that is second to none in social outreach and care because you don't agree with a finer point of doctrine. I'm sure it will be missed.

Despite the doctrinal stance of the SA it cannot be faulted in carrying out Christ's mission to the sick, underpriveliged, imprisoned etc. Matthew's gospel gives the example of the sheep and goats in the end times. I suspect Salvationists will be among the sheep no matter what their doctrine!!

:sorry:

[Davo1]

Hi there people. Have not posted on this board before but was bought on here by another SA related issue. Just to clarify, I am not a Salvationist but I am a commited Christian. I do however work for the Sally as a manager in one of its Social Service Centres in England, so I have a familiarity with the church.

Predestination is a subject that I have always been interested in and a notion that I have always rejected, but with reservations. Here's a few thoughts:


Put aside all thoughts about what the Salvation Army's 'official line' on this issue is. I don't say this because I believe the Amry is wrong, but because God invites us to discover him on a personal level. Everything can be questioned! It's the beauty of our faith. Find the answer with which God's spirit gives you peace, if you find it doesn't conform to what is being preached in your church/corps then go to your spiritual leader and have a chat about it. Learn from the people who disagree with you: A great exercise in humility and a great way to deepen your knowledge of God. (I disagree with my church leader about a great many theological issues but I still acknowledge his spiritual authority and I consider him to be a great friend - so we disagree on who is right!, well, maybe one day God will give us the answer. Maybe God will have a sense of humour and leave us discussing these issues in heaven, knowing that we discuss them because we care about them and those discussions bring more glory to him.)
If we believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, all-powerful God then we must accept that predestination is an option for Him. He is God after all! My personal view is that God created us for relationship - he could know exactly what was going to happen, but that would no longer be relationship and would take away the purpose of his creation in the first place. He has chosen to enter into relationship with us - how honoured are we? This is something that is backed up by both the New and Old Testaments. It negates the notion of a God that knows exactly what we will do over the next hour/day/week/year. A good passage to look at here is Exodus 32 vv9-14: God has His plan; Moses pleads with God; God chooses a different plan. A fantastic example of the Creator of everything working in relationship with his son. Almost sounds like me arguing with my wife! I know that sounds flippant, but I firmly believe that this is the kind of conversation that God wants to involve us in. He loves it when we care about the things he cares about (i.e. His people) and listens when we cry out on their behalf. A great book that covers these issues is 'The Openness of God' by various authors (can't remember who, just Google it and you should be OK).
Accept that you will never know the right answer until your death on earth. And maybe not even then!
(A personal belief again.) I find it hard to conceive of a God who is love personified, yet creates people to ultimately die and exist in seperation from him. (Don't believe in Hell myself either. Brian McClaren's 'New Kind of Christian' Series has some excellent teaching on this matter.)Sorry, have to go (need to cook wifey's dinner) but will hopefully finish my thoughts this evening if anybody expresses an interest.