Soul after death

[Gideon4God]

I hope this doesn't turn into a debate about purgatory, I'm simply trying to define the Orthodox belief when dealing with the soul after death.  This is the "Orthodox Forum" so I hope to keep this in the realm of Orthodoxy.

Orthodox view of purgatory:

These legalistic arguments (given for purgatory) of a purely human "justice" (which actually deny God's supreme goodness and love of mankind) the Latins proceeded to support by literalistic interpretations of certain Patristic texts and various visions; almost all of these interpretations are quite contrived and arbitrary, because not even the ancient Latin Fathers spoke of such a place as "purgatory," but only of the "cleansing" from sins after death, which some of them referred to (probably allegorically) as by "fire."

In the Orthodox doctrine, on the other hand, which St. Mark teaches, the faithful who have died with small sins unconfessed, or who have not brought forth fruits of repentance for sins they have confessed, are cleansed of these sins either in the trial of death itself with its fear, or after death, when they are confined (but not permanently) in hell, by the prayers and Liturgies of the Church and good deeds performed for them by the faithful. Even sinners destined for eternal torment can be given a certain relief from their torment in hell by these means also. There is no fire tormenting sinners now, however, either in hell (for the eternal fire will begin to torment them only after the Last Judgment), or much less in any third place like "purgatory"; all visions of fire which are seen by men are as it were images or prophecies of what will be in the future age. All forgiveness of sins after death comes solely from the goodness of God, which extends even to those in hell, with the cooperation of the prayers of men, and no "payment" or "satisfaction" is due for sins which have been forgiven.

Orthodox view of the soul after death:

Some confuse the Latin teaching on purgatory with the Orthodox teaching on the custom houses. The custom houses are only the figurative representations of the particular judgment, which is inescapable for each man; the way from purgatory is to paradise, while the way from the custom houses is both to paradise and to Hades. Nevertheless, in its basic idea, the Latin teaching on paradise has some similarity to the Orthodox teaching on the state of dead men's souls until the general resurrection. This similarity lies in the common teaching that the souls of some of the dead, having undergone torments for their sins, can, however, receive forgiveness of sins and alleviation of their torments or even full release from them. According to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, this alleviation of torments or even the complete release from them is received by the soul of one who has fallen asleep by virtue of the prayers and benefactions of members of Christ's Church, whereas, according to the Latin teaching, the souls of dead men receive forgiveness of sins in purgatory by virtue of the purgatorial torments themselves, by which they personally offer satisfaction to God's justice and through this purify their sins.

What the Orthodox belief is:

Orthodoxy teaches that, after the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). There are exceptions, such as the Theotokos, who was borne by the angels directly into heaven. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because some have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state of waiting is called "Particular Judgment."

Note on Salvation:

Salvation, like knowledge, is a matter of communion with God. Works and faith, virtues and efforts are those things which open the door of our heart to the Lord. But that which gives salvation is not works, nor faith, nor virtues, nor efforts, nor all these together. A man might have all these and not enjoy the betrothal of the Spirit, not become an abode of the Holy Trinity. Salvation, like knowledge, is the vivifying of man by the grace of God and the vision of God, of which pure hearts are deemed worthy in this life according to the measure of their purity. It is not a reward forced from God by toils and labors, which might not have purified the heart at all, neither is it a reward for an intellectual faith, which might not have changed man’s life at all.

Peace,

Gideon

PS> would love to learn more about the Coptic teaching... :pray:

[CopticOrthodox]

Hi, I was wondering, what is your source for these as the Eastern Orthodox teachings? I had thought that Toll Houses were never official teaching, and that the idea was less popular today than it had previously been, is it an official belief?

Here's what I was taught (as best as I can remember) from the OO perspective: In the OT time, at death, the spirit and the body became separated, and the body decayed (the will be ressurected later), while the spirits of both the righteous and the unrighteous went to Hades. This was because humanity had fallen, and not been redeemed. As such we belonged to Satan, and he had dominion over us. Both the righteous and the unrighetous were together in Hades, like a in a prison, but with different mindsets; with the righteous awaiting thier saviour, and the unrighteous awating thier punishment.

When Christ was crucified, His Spirit and His Body were spearated, however both His Spirit and His Body remained united to the Godhead. So His Body did not decay in the Tomb. His Spirit decended into Hades, as all did, and Satan thought that he had victory, and this was one more prophet coming under his dominion. In the Midnight Praise we say "The angelic hosts were amazed when they saw you counted among the dead." But Christ had committed no sin, and was God. As such, Satan had no authority to hold Him. Christ preached the Gospel in Hades, explaining to the Old Testament saints the roles they played in God's plan for salvation, and how the were types of Himself. Then He broke the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder (Ps 107:16). He lead the righteous out of Hades, and opened the way to Paradise. This decent into Hades is what we celebrate on Joyous Saturday, from Midnight Friday night, to 7 am Sat morning, in between Good Friday and Ressurection Sunday.

Now when people depart, their spirits are separated from their bodies as before. But now everyone isn't lumpped together in Hades. The person receives their particular judgment, and go either to Paradise to be with Christ, or to Hades to await the lake of fire. The soul is judged immediatly after death, and is saved or ****** based on their life. Prayer for the dead cannot result in someone who would otherwise be ****** going to Heaven. I know that prayer for the departed helps them, but I don't understand how, just like I know that prayer helps us here, but I don't understand how. But just like no matter how much you pray for me, if I don't repent, I will not be saved by your prayers, the prayers for the departed cannot change their destination.

At the endtimes, all the bodies will be ressurected, and all our works will be manifested at the general judgment. Then Satan and the unrighteous will be cast into the like of fire, and there will be a new Heaven, and a new Earth, where the righteous will go to be with God in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

[Gideon4God]

Coptic,

The custom houses are only the figurative representations of the particular judgment

The problem I think your referring to is when "toll houses" are seen in a real and not figurative fashion as with Bl. Fr. Seraphim Rose and his work.  As you know doctrines and dogma are not "declared" in eastern Churches as it is in the West, but I can assure you that this is a common teaching. 

St. Basil writes, "Let no one deceive himself with empty words, for sudden destruction cometh upon them (I Thess. 5:3) and causes an overturning like a storm. A strict angel will come, he will forcibly lead out your soul, bound by sins. Occupy yourself therefore with reflection on the last day... Imagine to yourself the confusion, the shortness of breath, and the hour of death, the sentence of God drawing near, the angels hastening towards you, the dreadful confusion of the soul tormented by its conscience, with its pitiful gaze upon what is happening, and finally, the unavoidable translation into a distant place" (St. Basil the Great, quoted in "Essay in an Historical Exposition of Orthodox Theology," by Bishop Sylvester, Vol. 5, p.89).

 St. John Chrysostom: "If, in setting out for any foreign country or city we are in need of guides, then how much shall we need helpers and guides in order to pass unhindered past the elders, the powers, the governors of the air, the persecutors, the chief collectors! For this reason, the soul, flying away from the body, often ascends and descends, fears and trembles. The awareness of sins always torments us, all the more at that hour when we shall have to be conducted to those trials and that frightful judgement place."

"The holy angels peacefully separated us from our bodies, and having good guides, we went without harm past the powers of the air. The evil spirits did not find in us what they were seeking; they did not notice what they wished to put to shame; seeing an immaculate soul, they were ashamed; seeing an undefiled tongue, they were silent. We passed by and put them to shame. The net was rent, and we were delivered. Blessed is God Who did not give us as a prey to them" (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 2, "On Remembering the Dead").

According to various revelations there are twenty such obstacles, the so-called "toll-houses," at each of which one or another form of sin is tested; after passing through one the soul comes upon the next one, and only after successfully passing through all of them can the soul continue its path without being immediately cast into gehenna. How terrible these demons and their toll-houses are may be seen in the fact that Mother of God Herself, when informed by the Archangel Gabriel of Her approaching death, answering Her prayer, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared from heaven to receive the soul of His Most Pure Mother and conduct it to heaven. Terrible indeed is the third day for the soul of the departed, and for this reason it especially needs prayers then for itself.  St. John Maximovitch, Life after Death.

 "As we were rising from the earth to the heights of heaven, we were first met by the spirits of the first torment. Here the souls are tormented for the sins of idle speech; this is, for speaking without thinking, or speaking what is vile and shameless, or speaking without need or order. We stopped, and many scrolls were brought out on which there were recorded all the words that I had uttered from my youth on, either needlessly or unreasonably; and especially when such words expressed anything unclean or blasphemous, as young people frequently bear on their tongue. St. Theodora

[CopticOrthodox]

"the souls of some of the dead, having undergone torments for their sins, can, however, receive forgiveness of sins and alleviation of their torments or even full release from them. According to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, this alleviation of torments or even the complete release from them is received by the soul of one who has fallen asleep by virtue of the prayers and benefactions of members of Christ's Church,"

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this, can you explain it for me?

[Gideon4God]

Based on the visions of St Macarius of Egypt, the Church serves a Divine Liturgy and the Office of the Dead for forty days after the repose of a Christian. St Macarius saw the souls of the departed wander for this amount of time, asking for the prayers of their friends and relatives in places familiar to them, being shown Heaven and Hell by God, until the fortieth day when they were assigned a place until the Second Coming of Christ.

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/calendar/novembre_8.htm

Private prayer at home, commemoration at the Liturgy, and alms on behalf of the deceased all lessen the suffering of the sinful soul, and can even free it from the bonds of hell. In the writings of St. John the Merciful, we read the story of a certain imprisoned youth whose parents thought he was dead. On the days on which his parents offered fervent prayers for him, he was freed from his shackles. Such is the power of prayers of commemoration.

http://www.stjohndc.org/Practice/0011a.htm

 On the 9th and 40th days after death panihidas must be ordered—prayers for forgiveness of the sins of the deceased. Particularly important is the 40th day, on which the personal judgment of God is carried out over the soul, determining its fate until the Second Coming of Christ. Prayers for the repose will be more effective, if any one of the relatives of the deceased partakes of the Eucharist on these commemorative days.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/beginning_orthodoxy_2.htm#_Toc12428289

Hope this helps. 

[jukesk9]

Gideon,

This sounds very similar to the Church's teaching of pugatory:

In the Orthodox doctrine, on the other hand, which St. Mark teaches, the faithful who have died with small sins unconfessed, or who have not brought forth fruits of repentance for sins they have confessed, are cleansed of these sins either in the trial of death itself with its fear, or after death, when they are confined (but not permanently) in hell, by the prayers and Liturgies of the Church and good deeds performed for them by the faithful. Even sinners destined for eternal torment can be given a certain relief from their torment in hell by these means also.

[CopticOrthodox]

Gideon, I'm not trying to argue with you, but when I do a google search on orthodox toll houses, almost all of the sites that come up are a debate about whether or not they belong as teachings in Orthodoxy. Is it perhaps more widely accepted in some Eastern Orthodox Churches than others? I don't know much about the EO Church and I'm just curious about the place of this belief, but from a brief search sites arguing for and against toll houses popped up from several Orthodox Churches.

[Gideon4God]

It was a common teachings in the EO Church until recently with the ecumenical movement. Many of the traditional teachings of the EO have been watered down, need I mention the strife between those on the Holy Mount (Athos) and Patriarch Bart?  It is a sad state when the faithful and the Bishops are at odds...when the pope of Rome invited Patriarch Bart to Assisi for prayer the Patriarch decline because the "faithful" didn't want him to go, but he would of went if the majority didn't protest.  It is an EO teaching not to pray with heretics, Rome, but the Patriarch denys tradition. 

It really doesn't matter, it's all (and I mean all) in vain.

Gideon 

[MariaRegina]

It was a common teachings in the EO Church until recently with the ecumenical movement. Many of the traditional teachings of the EO have been watered down, need I mention the strife between those on the Holy Mount (Athos) and Patriarch Bart?  It is a sad state when the  ...

Gideon 

Your messages are difficult to read with all the &nbsp's you have scattered about. Do you really, really, really, have to use &nbsp this and &nbsp that.

Thanks,

YSIC

Elizabeth

[Photini]

Hi--

In the book "Life After Death", Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos talks about the "toll houses." But he refers to this as the "taxing of souls." In my limited understanding of such things, I took his teaching to be more of the demons last violent attempt to abduct your soul. This isn't really looked at as a purifying event, purification must take place during the time given in our earthly life. He mentions that the "customs demons" try to bring up lies and false accusations or any reason at all they can find to take control of your soul.
This explanation actually makes alot of sense to me. I pray that I will make good use of the time remaining of my life, and repent of the time that has been lost.

[MariaRegina]

Hi--

In the book "Life After Death", Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos talks about the "toll houses." But he refers to this as the "taxing of souls." In my limited understanding of such things, I took his teaching to be more of the demons last violent attempt to abduct your soul. This isn't really looked at as a purifying event, purification must take place during the time given in our earthly life. He mentions that the "customs demons" try to bring up lies and false accusations or any reason at all they can find to take control of your soul.
This explanation actually makes alot of sense to me. I pray that I will make good use of the time remaining of my life, and repent of the time that has been lost.


My Dearest Joy in Christ, Photini: Christ is Risen!

BTW: I like St. Seraphim's greeting so I modified it a little.

Isn't it interesting that both Metropolitans Hierotheos Vlachos and Kallistos Ware believe in toll house theories as do the Anglicans? However, I was told that the whole idea of toll houses is not common Orthodox teaching. In fact, one Greek Orthodox Priest said that this teaching is heretical. Nevertheless, I greatly admire Metropolitan Hierotheos's books as I have bought most of them including the one to which you refer.

It seems that the theory of toll houses is not scriptural nor a matter of tradition. Christ told the good thief, "This day you shall be with me in Paradise." St. Stephen the deacon-martyr looked up to the heavens and saw Paradise awaiting him. Therefore I don't believe in the toll house myth no matter what modern bishop espouses it. Furthermore, it could discourage anyone who is facing death to know that they still have to undergo another test. No, facing death is a sufficient test. Why complicate the matter. Either a person is repentant in this life or he is not.

YSIC

Elizabeth

[Photini]

Dear Elizabeth,
Welcome to the board!!! I'm always glad to see other Orthodox Christians posting. I recently read the biography of St Seraphim of Sarov...very touching. My son will be named Seraphim at his baptism in a few months.
Please pray for me...my Baptism is this Sunday.