abortion and evolution

[rmwilliamsll]

i'm asking a question as defined in the forum rules:

3) Non-Fundamentalist (as defined above) members can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Fundamentalist doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Fundamentalist members. Any debate posts by Non-Fundamentalist members will be deleted. In other words, only Fundamentalist members can debate here.

here is my idea.

I think that membership in fundamentalist churches has a litmus test of anti-abortion and anti-evolution, a litmus test being a quick and handy guide to who is inside and who is outside.

i'm not here to debate the issues. what i would like to do is ask people about their emotions about the issues. to ask people about how important psychological and for unity of the fundamentalist community these issues are.

the problem is that i can read definitions of fundamentalism, like the one given in this forum FAQ. but that doesn't tell me how people really identify brethren in say a casual conversation with a visitor after church.

so with this background what i am asking is:

how important to fellowship and trust as a fellow fundamentalist or Christian are the issues of abortion and evolution? Can a Christian genuinely support abortion or be an evolutionist? if someone you didn't know talked to you after church and you found out that they supported legal abortion or were an evolutionist would this be more important than the fact that they could subscribe to the list of things that make a fundamentalist in this forums FAQ? simply put, does either a pro-abortion or evolutionist stand trump the doctrines for membership in fundamentalist churches?

thanks.

[Project 86]

I would say it is possible that a Christian may support allowing people to have abortions and believe God used evolution. That being said I would say they are either elevating so called science and society reasoning over scripture or are just ignorant of what scripture says in context. If they are are putting something over scripure then they wouldn't be fundamentalists. If they are just ignorant someone should be able to walk them through what the Bible says and they would change their opinions to form to those of God.

A clear reading of scripture would tell us God didn't use evolution. Also it would tell us the murder of innocent life is wrong. It doesn't matter if the baby is not wanted by the mother or if the baby was created by an act of rape of a 12 year old. The baby is an innocent victim and that life is valued by God.

i'm asking a question as defined in the forum rules:

3) Non-Fundamentalist (as defined above) members can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Fundamentalist doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Fundamentalist members. Any debate posts by Non-Fundamentalist members will be deleted. In other words, only Fundamentalist members can debate here.

here is my idea.

I think that membership in fundamentalist churches has a litmus test of anti-abortion and anti-evolution, a litmus test being a quick and handy guide to who is inside and who is outside.

i'm not here to debate the issues. what i would like to do is ask people about their emotions about the issues. to ask people about how important psychological and for unity of the fundamentalist community these issues are.

the problem is that i can read definitions of fundamentalism, like the one given in this forum FAQ. but that doesn't tell me how people really identify brethren in say a casual conversation with a visitor after church.

so with this background what i am asking is:

how important to fellowship and trust as a fellow fundamentalist or Christian are the issues of abortion and evolution? Can a Christian genuinely support abortion or be an evolutionist? if someone you didn't know talked to you after church and you found out that they supported legal abortion or were an evolutionist would this be more important than the fact that they could subscribe to the list of things that make a fundamentalist in this forums FAQ? simply put, does either a pro-abortion or evolutionist stand trump the doctrines for membership in fundamentalist churches?

thanks.

[TwinCrier]

I don't see how evolution or abortion invalidate one's salvation. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ. However, I think once a saved person opens their heart and mind and puts aside their pride, they will come to accept that abortion is wrong and evolution is a lie.

[No Swansong]

I don't think TC the OP is asking if one can be a Christian and believe in Evolution or support abortion. I believe the poster is asking if Fundamentalists would accept that someone who did as a Fundamentalist.

If I am mistake please correct me.

If I am correct then I would answer thusly;

I believe that a close reading of Scripture would lead one to a belief that abortion is a sin. However not everyone reads Scripture often or carefully and it is entirely possible to accept our definition of Fundamentalist and still miss this point.
I have no desire to address the Creation issue other than to say that those who take a non-literal view of Scripture do not normally fall within the Fundamentalist category. Please note however I used the word normally. There can be exceptions I suppose.

I strongly agree with TC however that "Salvation is the primary issue" At least I think that is what she is trying to say. Sometimes I am wrong.

[rmwilliamsll]

yes, the issue i am struggling with is how people decide if someone they are talking to is a brother.

i am a member of a confessional church and in many ways the confession forms the boundary line. but i am at a loss to how other Christians, especially those with very strong pro-life and creationist views do this judgement. the only contact i have with people is at church and online. that is why i asked here.

thank you very much for the answers thus far. it has given me several things to think about.

[cubanito]

yes, the issue i am struggling with is how people decide if someone they are talking to is a brother.

i am a member of a confessional church and in many ways the confession forms the boundary line. but i am at a loss to how other Christians, especially those with very strong pro-life and creationist views do this judgement. the only contact i have with people is at church and online. that is why i asked here.

thank you very much for the answers thus far. it has given me several things to think about.
As jtdad posted, it is crucial to define your question. There are many true Christians who believe in macroevolution, and I suppose also in abortion. So, are you asking if one can be a Christian and hold those beliefs, or a Fundamentalist?

Many, possibly most, true Christians are not Fundamentalists.

Please ask more specifically.

JR

[Starcrystal]

I think I can post this without it breaking the rule since it is not debate. :)

I am not a fundamentalist but I do believe abortion is sin, that the childs life begins at the moment of conception, and that evolution is a false teaching.
In fact my stand on abortion & homosexuality has caused some people to label me as a fundamentalist!
Personally I don't like "Christian" labels, except when it includes something like Jesus or born again.

[rmwilliamsll]

As jtdad posted, it is crucial to define your question. There are many true Christians who believe in macroevolution, and I suppose also in abortion. So, are you asking if one can be a Christian and hold those beliefs, or a Fundamentalist?

Many, possibly most, true Christians are not Fundamentalists.

Please ask more specifically.

JR

i'm not trying to define criteria to separate true Christians from false. My thought is how individuals feel about interacting with another person based on these two questions. i can see the passion that people have for these two questions. what i can't see is how this passion interacts with how they think and act towards people who answer the questions differently then they do.

we had a potluck at church last sunday. say i'm sitting at the table and a person i've never met or talked to begins to talk about either of these two issues: creation or abortion laws. say in the conversation i find out that they believe that abortion ought to be legal in the first trimester. does this effect my desire to invite them out to dinner next week? does the answers to these questions determine how i "feel" about fellowshipping with them?

now, i can read books and essays about how people wish to set up the boundary's of their churches. what questions they would require of new members etc. what i can't see is how people feel about fellowship, whether they are "turned off" towards further deeper involvement with people because of the strength of these feelings.

thank you very much for your help with this question. it is not working out like i thought it would before i asked.

[No Swansong]

I try (sometimes unsuccessfully) to treat all who call on the name of Christ the same. I understand your question and to be fair I guess the answer is that each individual has an individual answer to this. There are those who I know judge the salvation of others by these two criteria. I feel this is dangerous.

[twistedsketch]

I just try to boil it down to the saving faith. Not to be accusatory here, but after reading your posts, I honestly wonder if you would consider a new Christian good enough to talk to or not. Yes, abortion and evolution are worldly thought patterns, but like all worldly thought patterns, it takes time to flush them out. This is especially the case with evolution, as people are taught all their lives that this is science, therefore this is what happened. They don't know about the holes in it. I believe a critique of Darwinism is something that all believers can and should learn, but I must confess there was a time when I believed in Jesus and believed in evolution at the same time.

[tamtam92]

I think it depends. Salvation isn't based on this two issues, and sometimes there are christians who've lacked a good teaching on certain subjects. Likewise, you can't ask a new believer to know his Bible by heart, so of course he can make mistakes.

But i would find it quite impossible to have fellowship with a supposedly mature christian actively supporting abortion or evolution. Yet even in that case it may depend on the context. I think if he is a sincere christian, God will show him the truth.

[mont974x4]

short answer...no. A Christian who knows the teaching on these issues should not accept these ideas as ok. I would have a hard time believing a profession of faith from someone who believes in the traditional idea of evolution....which is in direct conflict with God and His Word.


Realistically...yes. There are probably many people who struggle with these, and other issues, that are Christians.

The kew, IMO, is the struggle. If they are adamant in their belief and actions and refuse to explore Gods Word on the issue OR if they have believed in such ideas for so long and they are growing and struggling to grow concering these issues and be more Christ-like makes all the diference.

regardless....
Love them, Pray for them and with them, and encourage them by looking at the Word together.


These issues are not unlike any other. We all have things that we struggle with.

[oliveplants]

I don't say this is right, but IRL I do have a problem just fellowshipping with someone who disagrees with me on "key" issues.
On CF, I may have opposing views with someone in one thread, and in another we agree completely. Maybe I should apply that lesson learned to real life.

I do understand that we are all growing, we can all learn from each other, etc. But you asked how I feel about it...

[hindsey]

I try (sometimes unsuccessfully) to treat all who call on the name of Christ the same. I understand your question and to be fair I guess the answer is that each individual has an individual answer to this. There are those who I know judge the salvation of others by these two criteria. I feel this is dangerous.

I do find places in the Bible where we are to not have "company" with people that are brothers, or that are called brothers (that is, naming the name of Christ).

1 Corinthians 5; 2 Thessalonians 3 - off the top of my head.

So, to some extent, we are commanded to be circumspect, and we are not supposed to allow sin to run rampant in the places where we fellowship - perhaps this rule applies only to certain sins (see 1 Corinthians 5:11 for example).

[hindsey]

short answer...no. A Christian who knows the teaching on these issues should not accept these ideas as ok. I would have a hard time believing a profession of faith from someone who believes in the traditional idea of evolution....which is in direct conflict with God and His Word.


Realistically...yes. There are probably many people who struggle with these, and other issues, that are Christians.

The kew, IMO, is the struggle. If they are adamant in their belief and actions and refuse to explore Gods Word on the issue OR if they have believed in such ideas for so long and they are growing and struggling to grow concering these issues and be more Christ-like makes all the diference.

regardless....
Love them, Pray for them and with them, and encourage them by looking at the Word together.


These issues are not unlike any other. We all have things that we struggle with.
Right on - I agree with this.

[mont974x4]

I do find places in the Bible where we are to not have "company" with people that are brothers, or that are called brothers (that is, naming the name of Christ).

1 Corinthians 5; 2 Thessalonians 3 - off the top of my head.

So, to some extent, we are commanded to be circumspect, and we are not supposed to allow sin to run rampant in the places where we fellowship - perhaps this rule applies only to certain sins (see 1 Corinthians 5:11 for example).

If my memory serves me well, I think before we get to the stage of not having company with some people we need to go through the church discipline process...and even then there should still be a way left open for repentence and reconciliation.....IMO.

[hindsey]

If my memory serves me well, I think before we get to the stage of not having company with some people we need to go through the church discipline process...and even then there should still be a way left open for repentence and reconciliation.....IMO.
You are absolutely correct (Matthew 18:15-17 I think is where you refer to). But we don't just have to unconditionally go alongside everyone because they name the name of Christ. That was the point I wanted to make there. We're now off topic, so I won't go into it any more :)

[cubanito]

I do find places in the Bible where we are to not have "company" with people that are brothers, or that are called brothers (that is, naming the name of Christ).

1 Corinthians 5; 2 Thessalonians 3 - off the top of my head.

So, to some extent, we are commanded to be circumspect, and we are not supposed to allow sin to run rampant in the places where we fellowship - perhaps this rule applies only to certain sins (see 1 Corinthians 5:11 for example).

Well, there is a difference between advocating an immorality in ignorance, and knowingly continuing in clear sin personally after being warned by others.

A woman could be pro-choice without personally ever having an abortion, even believing that she should not, but wanting others to have a choice.

Whereas it may be legitimate to shun a woman who claims to be a Christian, and yet is unrepentant about having an abortion; I think that discussion is the proper response to a Christian who is in error, but not for personal defense.

JR

[mont974x4]

Choose carefully when and where lines are drawn...and always in love, prayer, and in His Word.

[mark kennedy]

I think that membership in fundamentalist churches has a litmus test of anti-abortion and anti-evolution, a litmus test being a quick and handy guide to who is inside and who is outside.

It doesn't work that way, I have never seen doctrinal creed regarding abortion or evolution and I don't expect I ever will. Just like a creationist will be quite about their ideas in college a more liberal individule would be quiet and ambiquise in a fudamentalist church.

i'm not here to debate the issues. what i would like to do is ask people about their emotions about the issues. to ask people about how important psychological and for unity of the fundamentalist community these issues are.

I'm not confortable in the company of Christians with prochoice and Darwinian views. It's called liberal theology and if it's based on the systematic disbelief in the Bible as God's word liberals are known for, fellowship does not follow.

how important to fellowship and trust as a fellow fundamentalist or Christian are the issues of abortion and evolution? Can a Christian genuinely support abortion or be an evolutionist? if someone you didn't know talked to you after church and you found out that they supported legal abortion or were an evolutionist would this be more important than the fact that they could subscribe to the list of things that make a fundamentalist in this forums FAQ? simply put, does either a pro-abortion or evolutionist stand trump the doctrines for membership in fundamentalist churches?

thanks.

If you are talking about moderate views, I don't think it's too big of a deal. The problem is that it is allways a very big deal with people who hold those views. I came from the Church of Christ and you had the Church of Christ (evangelical), Christian Church (fundamentalist) and Disciples of Christ (liberal). The Church of Christ and Christian Church are allways talking about getting back together but if you ask them about the Disciples of Christ they will tell you absolutly not...too liberal they will tell you.

The thing is I don't hold it against someone for not really understanding the Trinity, sometimes I think that's even normal. It's antitrinitarian heresies that are dangerous. Abortion views I don't know about because I never heard that issue raised in church. Evolution on the other hand is a lot more cut and dried, I can't see a died in the wool Darwinian having much tolerance for a miracles. The thing is, in the lives of Moses/Joshua, Elijah/Elisha Christ and the Apostles miracles are common. I can't see a basis for fellowship with someone who simply ignores the supernatural nature of redemptive history.

[invisible trousers]

We don't consider you guys less christian than us because we don't agree on controversial social issues, the story of creation, and some theology.

Why won't you do the same?

Sheesh :(


VVVV Right, I do not wish to debate any of those topics.

[No Swansong]

I would like to take this opportunity to remind those that do not identify as fundamentalist that you are more than welcome to post questions and fellowship posts however you may not debate. This is a CF rule and will be enforced.

Thank you

[cubanito]

We don't consider you guys less christian than us because we don't agree on controversial social issues, the story of creation, and some theology.

Why won't you do the same?

Sheesh :(

A question to the moderator:

As a fundy, shall I answer the question or ignore it? What can I do? Separately, what would you advise me to do?

JR

[No Swansong]

Cubanito feel free to respond to the question. Let us keep in mind that we wish to inform as much as possible keeping charity in mind.

[ExtremeDays]

I think that membership in fundamentalist churches has a litmus test of anti-abortion and anti-evolution, a litmus test being a quick and handy guide to who is inside and who is outside.

i'm not here to debate the issues. what i would like to do is ask people about their emotions about the issues. to ask people about how important psychological and for unity of the fundamentalist community these issues are.

the problem is that i can read definitions of fundamentalism, like the one given in this forum FAQ. but that doesn't tell me how people really identify brethren in say a casual conversation with a visitor after church.

so with this background what i am asking is:

how important to fellowship and trust as a fellow fundamentalist or Christian are the issues of abortion and evolution? Can a Christian genuinely support abortion or be an evolutionist? if someone you didn't know talked to you after church and you found out that they supported legal abortion or were an evolutionist would this be more important than the fact that they could subscribe to the list of things that make a fundamentalist in this forums FAQ? simply put, does either a pro-abortion or evolutionist stand trump the doctrines for membership in fundamentalist churches?

thanks.

First, I don't think you can discover if you would want fellowship or company with someone just after a casual conversation. That could be part why we need to assemble on a regular basis- in order to get to know who the brethren are.

Personally, I think I have noticed those who are trying to sort out or find their position on creation. Often they are considering of God in their trying to understand. They often still use the Bible in this process, such as maybe the Bible means it this way or that.

However with those who are pro-choice i don't hear this, they can't and don't try to use Gods word to justify any of it. Their reasoning doesn't seem to have much to do with what God thinks of abortion, but rather what the woman wants or what they think is best for her. It seems those who are pro-choice are liberal (not following the scripture) also in other areas of their life. If their lifestyle isn't godly it doesn't matter what doctrine they say they believe.

It also seems that those who are not creationists rather have a problem of being led more by their minds and reason and may wrestle with other teachings in the Bible- not taking other things as the Bible says them.

Choices to keep or not keep company aren't done by litmus test, some creed or discussion of we shouldn't hang around with those who don't take these positions.It just seems to happen "organically", not just because of one or two positions but because these postions are often part of a package which makes it hard to agree or have the same perspective (worldview) and makes it harder to relate.

[cubanito]

We don't consider you guys less christian than us because we don't agree on controversial social issues, the story of creation, and some theology.

Why won't you do the same?

Sheesh :(


VVVV Right, I do not wish to debate any of those topics.

Less Christian, as in less pregnant? Not possible. One either IS or IS NOT a Christian. We live in a Quantum universe, you are either here or there- there is no middle ground. It is an illusion. And we DO NOT get to decide who is on which side with 100% certitude.

One could be more or less consistant with the written Scriptures, both in actions and thoughts.

What is being discussed is not wether one CAN be a Christian or not, for early on (very early on) I was a pro-abortion fundamentalist.

Rather how and if within that subset of Christians we call Fundamentalists the pro-choice and what kind of origin view can fit. (see def of this subforum)

A LOT of fundies will find themselves in Hell, and a LOT of liberals in Heaven. For example, my fav non-biblical author CS Lewis. Most definitely NOT a fundy.

I do acknowledge that often, in fundy circles, there is a totally sinful, unwarranted and distressing attitude of "we are better than them." But look on this subforum and you will see that many here eschew such. There also are many fundy circles were a smile or even the cleanest joke is suspect.

Myself, I know I'm only better than Arumna, my personal troll, but that's another story...