Choosing To Not Contracept

[Lotar]

Here's a topic that we don't talk much about here, so I thought that I would bring it up.

Who here doesn't use (or doesn't plan on using) contraception in their marriage? Do you use (or plan on using) NFP to space children? Why do you choose this? How has it affected you and your marriage?


Discuss. :thumbsup:

[Matrona]

NFP is contraception.

[Lotar]

NFP is contraception.


I agree with you up to a point. Would you think that the use of NFP is acceptable in certain circumstances?

My fiancee and I plan on using nothing, unless she continues to ovulate while nursing. If that happens we plan on asking our priest to allow us to use NFP, in order to allow her body to recouperate.

[Matrona]

I agree with you up to a point. Would you think that the use of NFP is acceptable in certain circumstances?

Of course, seeing as it's a non-abortifacient form of contraception. But NFP is just as much contraception as condoms, spermicide, and all that other mess.

I also have a problem with what they named it... as a female, how could anyone possibly think it's "natural" to stick a thermometer up... THERE?! :eek:

[ModernDaySpyridon]

NFP is contraception.


Well, I suppose it is, technically, but it isn't the ring and it darn sure isn't Depo (which I refer to as "a sledgehammer to the uterus").

My wife and I actually went off of birth control around 2 months after we first attended an Orthodox parish, and now we have a 3 month old.

To be honest it wasn't merely the Orthodox understanding of contraception that changed our minds; for us it was restoring our sexuality to a fuller understanding, and valuing, of the importance of conception (or at least the possibility of conception) in the sexual act.

Plus contraceptives really aren't good for a women's body, even the better ones like the ring.

[Lotar]

Of course, seeing as it's a non-abortifacient form of contraception. But NFP is just as much contraception as condoms, spermicide, and all that other mess.

I have heard some good arguments otherwise. I think it would be more accurate to call it birth control than contraception, since NFP does not involve any actual contraception, but periodic abstinance.

It is the only form of birth control ever approved by a Saint.


I also have a problem with what they named it... as a female, how could anyone possibly think it's "natural" to stick a thermometer up... THERE?! :eek:


LOL :D There are other methods too, like counting or peeing on a stick.

[Saint_Rita]

Of course, seeing as it's a non-abortifacient form of contraception. But NFP is just as much contraception as condoms, spermicide, and all that other mess.

I also have a problem with what they named it... as a female, how could anyone possibly think it's "natural" to stick a thermometer up... THERE?! :eek:
Just to clarify - temperatures can be taken orally. We haven't used anything since we were married in 2002. Although I use NFP concepts while we are trying to conceive. I have one child born in 2004 who is still breastfeeding so we are having a little more difficulty conceiving.

[Xpycoctomos]

My fiancee and I plan on using nothing, unless she continues to ovulate while nursing.


Just to clarify, it is a myth that is out there (for some reason) that it is really difficult to concieve while nursing. This is not true for a lot of people. There have been many people who have believed this and concieved while still nursing... oops! I've met three... and I don't knw that many people with babies.

[Saint_Rita]

Just to clarify, it is a myth that is out there (for some reason) that it is really difficult to concieve while nursing. This is not true for a lot of people. There have been many people who have believed this and concieved while still nursing... oops! I've met three... and I don't knw that many people with babies.
you are right - I know many bfng moms who are able to conceive quite easily while nursing... I'm not the norm.

[Xpycoctomos]

i think this is a very personal issue (not that the thread is inappropriate). It is obviously preferred to be "natural" about it... but not always practical at all. My wife and I see and feel nothing different aobut NFP than we do any other non-abortive measure (of which there are very few... this should be noted). There is still that same feeling of "I don't want a baby, but if God wills then...". Obviously NFP has it's draw because it phsically feels nicer (not to get gross), and I can respect those who feel that the intimacy is deeper. But I don't think this is so for all people.

While I do not think the Church should blanketly ban all forms of contraception, She does need to be more clear on the fact that that which is possibly abortive (ALL forms of the Pill for example... doctors don't tell you that, becuase they will merely say that some aren't MEANT to be... but that means very little) are off limits. I don't think the OC does a good job at getting that message out. I also think that the OC should stress more that even non-abortive contraception is something to be taken very seriously and to be used a temporary plan so as not to develop a hatred or disgust or fear of children.

I feel the same way about NFP. Yes, there are differences, but the end is the same: to avoid babies. NFP can be abused... condoms can be abused.

That's how I see it.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

Just to clarify... again (lol), I wasn't saying that to dispute what YOU said... I was saying that as a warning to others who are thinking "Nursing, a natural contraception? Cool..." jsut to say "Not so fast buddy!" lol

John

[Saint_Rita]

Just to clarify... again (lol), I wasn't saying that to dispute what YOU said... I was saying that as a warning to others who are thinking "Nursing, a natural contraception? Cool..." jsut to say "Not so fast buddy!" lol

John
oh I understood that... no worries - I'm not the overly sensitive type.

[ufonium2]

We didn't use anything, and got pregnant a little over a month after we got married. Then our son was born, and right before his birth they discovered a flaw in my uterus (it hemmoraged due to the stress of labor) that could have been super bad then and has a real possibility of killing the baby, or me, or both of us, if we aren't really careful next time. Part of that being careful is to space kids far enough apart to give my uterus--the cesarean scar and the flaw--time to heal between pregnancies.

So, we're doing NFP to space kids a few years farther apart than our amazing hillbilly fertility would naturally space them. (As an aside, sticking a thermometer up there isn't any more accurate than sticking it anywhere else, and I have no clue why you would do it.) We're just learning NFP, because I became fertile again last month (while breastfeeding), and so far it has been okay. My husband doesn't want to be as conservative as I do concerning "iffy" days pre-ovulation, so that has been rough. Because I'm bad at math and charts and such, I downloaded a spiffy NFP program that works on my Palm. I just input my waking (oral :D) temperature, and a couple other indicators as the day goes along, and it tells me when I'm fertile. This has been a real eye-opener for me, because I had no clue how my body worked before.

That being said, it's not entirely impossible that I could be pregnant again already, because of the aforementioned disagreement over what constitutes an "iffy" day. If I am, I will whack my husband in the head with the "I told you so" stick, and then concentrate on keeping my folks from killing him. But I'll have the baby.

[choirfiend]

I understand that following the marital guidelines for fasting can help naturally space, too, as that crosses off about 4/7ths of the year for conceiving.

Over the weekend I was visiting a family (not Orthodox) who dont believe in any sort of birth control and I think might believe in having as many children as possible for God. They have 11, and the 12th is on the way, age 19-1.5, and they would have more if they hadn't sometimes miscarried. I dont think I want this for myself. And I have to admit that I can't see God wanting me to have 12 kids.

If you're someone who finds yourself using whatever form of non-abortive BC or nothing at all, and you're having a billion kids one after the other and you REALLY just dont WANT to have more than, say, 5, would then choosing to use non-abortive BC a bad thing? Is that hatred of children, or coping with family IN the culture and environment we currently live in.

[ufonium2]

I understand that following the marital guidelines for fasting can help naturally space, too, as that crosses off about 4/7ths of the year for conceiving.


I would say that the two major fasts would, so that would knock out about 3 months worth of cycles, depending on timing. But sperm can live for days (sorry if this is too graphic), so the Wed/Fri fasts really aren't as effective for spacing as you might think. I mean, you can't count on the fact that you ovulated on a Wednesday to rule out pregnancy that month, unless you were, umm, maritally fasting for three to five days prior to Wednesday as well.

[MariaRegina]

I agree with you up to a point. Would you think that the use of NFP is acceptable in certain circumstances?

My fiancee and I plan on using nothing, unless she continues to ovulate while nursing. If that happens we plan on asking our priest to allow us to use NFP, in order to allow her body to recouperate.

I used ecological breastfeeding and my son loved it: Breast feeding on demand (about every two hours), during the night (sleeping with the baby), and not offering any solid food until 12 months of age, except for those teething crackers.

It kept him healthy and gave my body time to recuperate with no menstral cramps for an entire year ... it was a glorious time.

[atlasshrugged]

Uh, well, inquiring minds are definately wanting to know again. I've been continuing to read. I'm still waiting until I am in a better position to be able to attend DL. But this BC thing has me very curious and a little worried.

4 years ago, I had myself fixed. I have two children but I also have health problems. Some of which were not known until after I had my children. I was told by my doctor that if I have any more children, I will be taking both my life and the life of any child I carry into my own hands. I don't want that kind of burden placed on my shoulders. So I'm wondering, if it comes to it, is this going to be a major impediment in my journey?

[choirfiend]

I don't think so. I know someone who had their uterus removed after giving birth to their 4th (and unexpected--younger than the others by 5 years or so) because it was damaged and she would have bled to death. She had no problem becoming Orthodox.

[kamikat]

NFP can become a HUGE deal in a marriage. We tried it and it did not work. There are some medical conditions that make NFP difficult. In my case, it's a thyroid condition. It makes the temps unreliable. Since husband was doing it for me and wasn't commited to the idea himself, the amount of abstaining became a MAJOR issue for him. In fact, NFP was one of the main reasons for me leaving the Catholic Church. BEcause it was a big deal, I talked about it with Father the first time I met with him. I think NFP can put a lot of stress on a marriage and the topic should be revisited on a regular basis. According to the NFP teachers I learned from (a good friend and her husband with 6 kids between 10 and 2 and currently pregnant)say that NFP couple usually end up having babies every 2 years. Are you prepared for that? If your wife prepared for that?
atlastshrugged, is your husband interested in ORthodoxy, also? Either way, I don't think it would be an issue. My priest said that when their medical problems, non-abortive birth control is permitted. Normally, the OC doesn't permit a tubaligation, because it permanently alters the body, but you had it done prior to conversion. I doubt any priest would tell you that you couldn't become Orthodox or had to have it reversed, but you should still discuss it with a priest.

[Orthocat]

oh boy...
We have six and about to add a seventh child. We are biological and foster and adoptive parents so basically we are insane.
My wife had to have a hysterectomy due to complications so the baby thing is not a factor anymore.

Our problem is that with what we do we are always meeting beautiful, but needful children that need homes. Then we end up going home and saying "ok, bunk beds in this room, closet space here...."

We basically have a boarding house. It is the hardest but most rewarding thing I've every done.

I always have to explain, "No, we are not Catholic...".

[Momzilla]

This topic has gotten a little off track (sorry, Lotar!) but since there are some expressing concerns about whether it is *ever* okay to use BC, I'm going to share my story.

About a year ago, I went to my priest in confession, desperate and miserable that I was going against the Church's teaching on BC. My husband and I have two children, one of whom has mild special needs, and my husband has some health issues.

I was miserable because I was using birth control against the church's teachings, and miserable because the thought of being responsible for another child was more than I could handle, given everything already on my plate.

When I told all this to my priest, his response was, "The church's only teaching on birth control is that it not be used out of hatred of children [I'll add, and not be abortifacient, but that wasn't an issue]. You know perfectly well that's not your situation. Go in peace."

I cannot tell you how much peace that brought me. I love my boys, and I wish we could have more, but it's just not an option for us.

I just wanted to provide this perspective for those who are worried about using BC. Talk to your priest, of course, but remember the underlying principle.

[Lotar]

According to the NFP teachers I learned from (a good friend and her husband with 6 kids between 10 and 2 and currently pregnant)say that NFP couple usually end up having babies every 2 years. Are you prepared for that? If your wife prepared for that?


Yes and yes. We are planning on having between 6-8.

We both agree with our priest that contraception is a sin, unless there is a medical reason for it.

[Asinner]

We are planning on having between 6-8.

:D


I was only planning on two . . . Prepare yourself. God's plans are often times very different than our own.

God Bless :)

[Lotar]

:D


I was only planning on two . . . Prepare yourself. God's plans are often times very different than our own.

God Bless :)


LOL :D

True. I probably should have used the word "hoping" instead of "planning". I don't think we'd ever be able to afford to stay in southern California and have 12 kids, and I'd be kinda bummed if we only had 2.

[Orthocat]

:D


I was only planning on two . . . Prepare yourself. God's plans are often times very different than our own.

God Bless :)

Aye, how true.
He decided I would look better with lots of kids and blond hair turning silver prematurely...

10 years ago I was single and living on a beach....and now...

[Asinner]

I don't think we'd ever be able to afford to stay in southern California and have 12 kids, and I'd be kinda bummed if we only had 2.

Ya know . . . you're just begging to have either 20 or none by these statements. ^_^ Either way, Lotar, the fact that you are placing your trust in God, be assured that He will provide either way if you have 20 (you will wind up with the patience of Job), or spiritually (if your wife cannot conceive). What I would be preparing myself for are these two numbers (0 or 20), that way, you will be content with 1 through 19 children. :crosseo:

God Bless

[Asinner]

10 years ago I was single and living on a beach....and now...

. . . you're being perfected through suffering. :D

[OrthoCanuck]

We both agree with our priest that contraception is a sin, unless there is a medical reason for it.


That is so interesting that different priest can have different views on the same topic. My priest does not view BC itself as a sin (except for abortive methods), though he recommends NFP for many other reasons.

When I re-entered the RCC my wife had already had her tubes tied after our third child, so it was easy to not have to deal with their teachings on BC (especially since I have no intention on ever sterilizing myself).

Now that I am a catechumen in the Orthodox Church, I again don't have to worry about the issue. However, I still can't help looking into the various issues surrounding BC and am glad I don't have to get married again because I'm not interested in having more children anytime soon (if ever).

Peace

[Orthocat]

. . . you're being perfected through suffering. :D

:D

ah yeah....must be a thin line between perfection and insanity!
I love all my little kiddies...but boy, just one day back on the beach with my dog and a frisbee...

[Asinner]

:D

ah yeah....must be a thin line between perfection and insanity!
I love all my little kiddies...but boy, just one day back on the beach with my dog and a frisbee...


How many children do you have? What ages?:)

[Mary of Bethany]

NFP can become a HUGE deal in a marriage. We tried it and it did not work. There are some medical conditions that make NFP difficult. In my case, it's a thyroid condition. It makes the temps unreliable. Since husband was doing it for me and wasn't commited to the idea himself, the amount of abstaining became a MAJOR issue for him. In fact, NFP was one of the main reasons for me leaving the Catholic Church. BEcause it was a big deal, I talked about it with Father the first time I met with him. I think NFP can put a lot of stress on a marriage and the topic should be revisited on a regular basis. According to the NFP teachers I learned from (a good friend and her husband with 6 kids between 10 and 2 and currently pregnant)say that NFP couple usually end up having babies every 2 years. Are you prepared for that? If your wife prepared for that?
atlastshrugged, is your husband interested in ORthodoxy, also? Either way, I don't think it would be an issue. My priest said that when their medical problems, non-abortive birth control is permitted. Normally, the OC doesn't permit a tubaligation, because it permanently alters the body, but you had it done prior to conversion. I doubt any priest would tell you that you couldn't become Orthodox or had to have it reversed, but you should still discuss it with a priest.

I had always wanted 4 -5 kids, as I grew up in a big family myself. But at the recommendation of my doctors, I had a tubal ligation for medical reasons, at the time of our second son's birth. This was many, many years before I started inquiring into Orthodoxy.

The subject never even came up when during our inquiry/catechumenate, and still never has. Most things that were done in our "non-Orthodox" life are not expected to have lined up with Orthodoxy. IOW, we aren't held to the same standard for those decisions, as we are once we become Orthodox.

I hope that helps.

I also wonder what decisions my husband and I would have made had we both been Orthodox and coming at things from an Orthodox belief. I hope we would have continued to trust God to take care of me and give us more children if He chose. As it turns out, the condition for which I was told I should have the tubal ligation has not been a problem, and more pregnancies probably wouldn't have aggravated it. :sigh:

Mary

[tidbit]

This is a timely issue for me. (I am not Orthodox....yet.)

My wife and I have three wonderful children. The youngest is 3. I am 39, and my wife is 37. We are wondering whether to have more children. I am at that stage in life where I would like not to have to change more diapers, carry kids in car seats, etc. Also, I look forward to the day (with mixed emotions, of course) when the chicks will be out of the nest and my wife and I will get to spend more time alone getting ready for the grandchildren.

On the other hand, we love all of our children, and know that a fourth child would be a joy.

How do we make the decision that enough is enough?

[Lotar]

Leave it in God's hands. If He gives you more, He gives you more, and if not, not. :)

[tidbit]

Leave it in God's hands. If He gives you more, He gives you more, and if not, not. :)
Well, we've kind of taken it out of God's hands. We don't use ABC, but we do a sort of ad hoc rythym/barrier method. (Sorry for TMI)

[Lotar]

Ya know . . . you're just begging to have either 20 or none by these statements. ^_^ Either way, Lotar, the fact that you are placing your trust in God, be assured that He will provide either way if you have 20 (you will wind up with the patience of Job), or spiritually (if your wife cannot conceive). What I would be preparing myself for are these two numbers (0 or 20), that way, you will be content with 1 through 19 children. :crosseo:

God Bless

What, are you trying to curse me? :D

That reminds me of our spounsors' wedding. His uncle told them on the wedding tape, at the reception, that they had to have all boys to keep the name alive. They have 4 boys and no girls. ^_^

It's really up in the air for us though. We both come from fertile Italian families, so we don't think we'll have problems getting pregnant. The only problem is that she was born with Spinal Bifida Occulta, and the surgury to correct it gave here RSD. So we don't know how many pregnacies her body can handle, and we don't know if she can pass on the Spinal Bifida to our children.

We're praying everything will be fine and we'll have the large family we want.

[Lotar]

Well, we've kind of taken it out of God's hands. We don't use ABC, but we do a sort of ad hoc rythym/barrier method. (Sorry for TMI)

We'll, that's easy enough to correct. ;)

Just stop preventing, but don't actively try and see what happens. :)

[tidbit]

Leave it in God's hands. If He gives you more, He gives you more, and if not, not. :)

By the way, is having non-protected sex really putting it in God's hands? I look at it this way--

Let's say I eat a dozen Twinkies a day, and I say, "I'm going to put it in God's hands whether I get fat or not." It's not in God's hands: if I eat a dozen Twinkies a day I'm going to get fat!

Likewise, if my wife and I have unprotected sex, we are going to get pregnant!

Now, back to the Twinkie analogy: my body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and I have a duty to keep it in good shape. That means I can't eat anything and everything I want. I have to eat responsibly and be a good steward of my body.

Would that not also be a good analogy to child-rearing: a couple should reproduce responsibly to be a good steward?

I hope that makes sense.

Please forgive my lack of faith...

[Lotar]

By the way, is having non-protected sex really putting it in God's hands? I look at it this way--

Let's say I eat a dozen Twinkies a day, and I say, "I'm going to put it in God's hands whether I get fat or not." It's not in God's hands: if I eat a dozen Twinkies a day I'm going to get fat!

Likewise, if my wife and I have unprotected sex, we are going to get pregnant!

Now, back to the Twinkie analogy: my body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and I have a duty to keep it in good shape. That means I can't eat anything and everything I want. I have to eat responsibly and be a good steward of my body.

Would that not also be a good analogy to child-rearing: a couple should reproduce responsibly to be a good steward?

I hope that makes sense.

Please forgive my lack of faith...

A better analogy would be skipping communion because you don't want the extra calories. Or like eating all the twinkies you want, then sticking your finger down your throat.

The stewardship argument just doesn't fly. As long as you are providing food, clothing and housing for your family, and you are not wasting, you are practicing good stewardship. The excuse of wanting to maintain a subjective ideal stadard of living, which is better than that experienced by at least 80% of the rest of the world, is probably one of the worst. We are trading children for things.

Plus, think about on the otherside of the stewardship equation: You are leaving only 3 children to care for you and support you in your old age.

God commands us to be "fruitful and multiply", the Psalms extole the virtues of a large family, Tobit emphasises the importance of children over mammon, and Onan recieved death for practicing coitus interuptus. Scriptures say that God opens and closes the womb, and they state that children are a blessing from Him.

[Orthocat]

How many children do you have? What ages?:)


ok, there are...wait...this week? hmmm...

one 19 - in college
one 16 - preaccepted to MIT
one 12 - physically abused foster child
one 8 - same as above
one 7 - dealing with severe sexual/physical abuse
one 5 - wants to be Spiderman

and possibly adding a 14 year old in the mix, if the hillbillies don't shoot me first.
all boys except the 8 year old girl....there is however a little 12 yo girl in this state who wants to meet us....so who knows?

We were blessed with a large home, and I know how to cook like a military cook!!

[Asinner]

A better analogy would be skipping communion because you don't want the extra calories.

The stewardship argument just doesn't fly. As long as you are providing food, clothing and housing for your family, and you are not wasting, you are practicing good stewardship. The excuse of wanting to maintain a subjective ideal stadard of living, which is better than that experienced by at least 80% of the rest of the world, is probably one of the worst. We are trading children for things.

Plus, think about on the otherside of the stewardship equation: You are leaving only 3 children to care for you and support you in your old age.

God commands us to be "fruitful and multiply", the Psalms extole the virtues of a large family, Tobit emphasises the importance of children over mammon, and Onan recieved death for practicing coitus interuptus. Scriptures say that God opens and closes the womb, and they state that children are a blessing from Him.

Lotar,
This is one issue you cannot force upon anyone. Even though I agree with you, it is between each individual couple and their priest.

God Bless :)

[Asinner]

ok, there are...wait...this week? hmmm...

one 19 - in college
one 16 - preaccepted to MIT
one 12 - physically abused foster child
one 8 - same as above
one 7 - dealing with severe sexual/physical abuse
one 5 - wants to be Spiderman

and possibly adding a 14 year old in the mix, if the hillbillies don't shoot me first.
all boys except the 8 year old girl....there is however a little 12 yo girl in this state who wants to meet us....so who knows?

We were blessed with a large home, and I know how to cook like a military cook!!


Oh my goodness . . . you are more perfect than I! :P I only have 5. :holy: Finally, I know who to go to if I have any childrearing issues. You rock! :bow:

God Bless

[ThePilgrim]

oh boy...
We have six and about to add a seventh child. We are biological and foster and adoptive parents so basically we are insane.
My wife had to have a hysterectomy due to complications so the baby thing is not a factor anymore.

Our problem is that with what we do we are always meeting beautiful, but needful children that need homes. Then we end up going home and saying "ok, bunk beds in this room, closet space here...."

We basically have a boarding house. It is the hardest but most rewarding thing I've every done.

I always have to explain, "No, we are not Catholic...".
God bless you! That's awesome!

[tidbit]

Thank you for your thoughts here, guys.

. . . Onan recieved death for practicing coitus interuptus. . .

Onan's sin was a little more complicated than that, Lotar. But that's getting off topic...

[Lotar]

Lotar,
This is one issue you cannot force upon anyone. Even though I agree with you, it is between each individual couple and their priest.

God Bless :)

That is true.

This is an issue that is hard for me sometimes, because some priests take such liberties in this area. As if the Church all of a sudden changed it's mind in the last few decades. I know it's not something you can force on anyone, but at least people should know that BC is only allowed as economy under certain circumstances.

Ah well, that's another subject altogether.

[choirfiend]

I'll pipe up too on the Onan claim--coitus interruptus isn't quite the reason he got in so much trouble. Though practicing that certainly isn't really following through on the two becoming one, now, is it? That's a self-focused manner of relations if ever I heard.

If you have a spiritual father with whom you are being honest and soul-baring when discussing sins, actions that might be sins, struggles, and all the rest then he (with God's help) should be giving you help, instruction, or guidelines that are in YOUR personal best spiritual interest, barring personal human falleness. Working with him on this issue SHOULD bring you to the option that will best allow you and your spouse to live out your life in Christ together, doing such things as are pleasing to Him, and working for each other's salvation and the raising of God-fearing children. Your experience may differ . ;)

[NyssaTheHobbit]

This is a huge issue for me as an inquirer because I have to use ABC for medical reasons. (I planned to use NFP when I discovered I had a hormonal imbalance.) Yet people keep calling it an abortifacent. I checked and could find nothing to confirm that on medical sites; if it does happen at all, it would be extremely rare. And many of us just don't have the option of NOT using it because of various medical problems. Some people would have excruciating pain without it, for example. I went off ABC for a time to have my son, but it took about a year and a half before I got pregnant, and my medical problem got worse and worse. Life became absolutely miserable at that time of month--when it came at all. I also discovered that I have large babies, and I'm a small person; they had to yank him out of me or do a C-section. :( The labor was frightening. It really bothers me when people start accusing Pill-takers of using an abortifacent, because I can't do anything about it and am not convinced it does that in the first place. If I convert, I'd have to be allowed to continue using ABC. We don't hate children at all; we hope to adopt at least one more when we have the means.

I'm also confused because I've been reading the GOARCH website, and they suggest quite a lot of leniency regarding ABC....

[Lotar]

GOARCH is more lenient, but they still don't allow the pill.

The pill can be an abortifacient because it prevents pregnancy in 3 ways: preventing ovulation, thickening cervical mucus, and preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. It is the third reason why it is not allowed. From what I hear, women who require the pill for medical reasons are usually also told to use a barrier method, so that the chances of an abortion are negligable.

[kamikat]

So we don't know how many pregnacies her body can handle, and we don't know if she can pass on the Spinal Bifida to our children.

We're praying everything will be fine and we'll have the large family we want.

And what would you do if she passed it on to her children? Would you still want to have a large family of disabled children? (my aunt had spina bifida and I know just how hard her life was) What if the disabled child took up so much of you and your wife's time so that other, healthier children felt neglected? Would a big family still be desired? Do you understand what it feels like to spend so many nights in the hospital with one child that the other begs you to not go to the hospital to visit the other one because he misses you? These aren't medical problems to momma, but they do impact the health of the family as a whole.

[Lotar]

And what would you do if she passed it on to her children? Would you still want to have a large family of disabled children? (my aunt had spina bifida and I know just how hard her life was) What if the disabled child took up so much of you and your wife's time so that other, healthier children felt neglected? Would a big family still be desired? Do you understand what it feels like to spend so many nights in the hospital with one child that the other begs you to not go to the hospital to visit the other one because he misses you? These aren't medical problems to momma, but they do impact the health of the family as a whole.

It all depends I guess.

Her case was fairly mild, and if it wasn't for the RSD, she would have very few problems now. Since she had it, we know the symptoms and what to look for, so we can get the surgery done while the child is an infant. Also, she is taking pre-natals to get her folic acid and reduce the risk.

If we had a kid become disabled because of it, we probably would not want to continue having children. We would have to discuss it if it comes to that.

I'm not legalistic about it, I know there are legitimate reasons for using birth control. If it came down to us having multiple disabled children or her health being in danger, we'd do something about it.

[kamikat]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across so hostile. This is a very touchy subject for me. When I was seriously working on staying Catholic, we were going through multiple surgeries with my youngest and had recently had discovered that my genetic disorder that was supposed to be rare and not generally passed on, had been passed on to him.
Again, I'm sorry that the pervious post was so hostile. I am just glad to see that you are open to the possiblity that things might not be so rosey in the future.

[Orthocat]

Oh my goodness . . . you are more perfect than I! :P I only have 5. :holy: Finally, I know who to go to if I have any childrearing issues. You rock! :bow:

God Bless

thank you....but I have no answers, only more questions. :)
I am definitely being taught something by God, but I'm too stupid to know what it is...

5 is many indeed!!! Bless you for that!!

And all who have little ones...or that want to...or...whatever. :)

[Lotar]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across so hostile. This is a very touchy subject for me. When I was seriously working on staying Catholic, we were going through multiple surgeries with my youngest and had recently had discovered that my genetic disorder that was supposed to be rare and not generally passed on, had been passed on to him.
Again, I'm sorry that the pervious post was so hostile. I am just glad to see that you are open to the possiblity that things might not be so rosey in the future.

That's okay. We have discussed the issue, and we know that we might not be able to have the family we want if her body can't handle it or if the disease is passed on. It's a wierd one though, because they don't even know if it is genetic or not. She got it because her dad was exposed to Agent Orange.

I know a couple who continues to use no BC, even though she has been told that another kid would kill her... actually, she was told that 2 kids ago. I think it is great when people have faith like that, and I'm sure God will bless them for it. I hope that some day I will have that sort of faith, but right now I definately do not. If I was in the same situation as them or as you, I'd be going in for a little snip-snip and take the penance.

So, I think it is good that there is economy on the subject, but I also don't like how some people take advantage of it. It's wrong for people to go around teaching that the OC says birth control is a-okay, and people abuse the economy. There needs to be a balance between the RC one-size-fits-all legalism and the Protestant revisionist-individualism.

[kamikat]

She got it because her dad was exposed to Agent Orange.
.

That's VERY interesting. My husband's cousin was born with Spina Bifida and his father is severaly disabled (epilepsy) due to exposure from Agent Orange and they were told it had nothing to do with it.

[irishseventysix]

I think that part of the financial and time commitment problems that people have with big families these days has to do with our culture's more recent developments.

As recently as one hundred years ago, it was more economically and personally feasible to have more than 4 kids because we didn't live in "nuclear"-type families with one Dad (breadwinner), one Mom (housewife), and kids in a suburban 3-bedroom ranch. Our cultural norm before then (and it's been the norm for much of history in most cultures) was to have the extended family: aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc. all living under one roof and contributing to the household, helping raise the children and so forth.

It is my contention that, except for medical reasons, if we interacted in our Church communities in the way our NT-era brothers and sisters did, we'd have no need for things like contraception, whatsoever, because the burdens - as well as the joys - of raising children could be more easily and closely shared.

There are lots of reasons I wouldn't want to use contraception if I do get married (God willing) someday, unless my future wife and I would need the ekonomia in this area for some reason.

[ufonium2]

I also discovered that I have large babies, and I'm a small person; they had to yank him out of me or do a C-section. :( The labor was frightening.

C-sections really aren't that bad. Mine was done in an emergency setting (my scar is about twice the normal size, and curved like the Nike swoosh) , and still wasn't anything to worry about. Our future kids will be planned c-section deliveries, and I'm actually relieved about that. The only bad thing about a c-section is the recovery, which does take longer. But I went swimming three weeks after mine, so it's not like you're completely laid up for the six weeks.

[atlasshrugged]

Lotar, I wish your and your fiance all the best.

To everyone who answered my question, thanks. I apologise if my question derailed the thread a bit. Thanks again for the answers.

[Lotar]

That's VERY interesting. My husband's cousin was born with Spina Bifida and his father is severaly disabled (epilepsy) due to exposure from Agent Orange and they were told it had nothing to do with it.

Ya, there's a whole mess with that going on right now. Doctors know that it is because of Agent Orange, but the Military won't take responsibility. They're supposively doing research on the subject right now.

[Orthocat]

Ya, there's a whole mess with that going on right now. Doctors know that it is because of Agent Orange, but the Military won't take responsibility.


big surprize there. I was a military specimen for years.

"Follow me, don't follow me
I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush
Collar me, don't collar me
I've got my spine, I've got my orange crush
We are agents of the free
I've had my fun and now its time to
Serve your conscience overseas (over me, not over me)
Coming in fast, over me"
REM


My prayers for all vets and their families that have suffered from war... :crosseo:

[HandmaidenOfGod]

That is true.

This is an issue that is hard for me sometimes, because some priests take such liberties in this area. As if the Church all of a sudden changed it's mind in the last few decades. I know it's not something you can force on anyone, but at least people should know that BC is only allowed as economy under certain circumstances.

Ah well, that's another subject altogether.

The barrier method does not help with that time of the month.

I don't think many realize how disabling a woman's period can be. I have a friend who literally just lies in the shower bleeding in pain every month.

She refuses to take the pill b/c of her Catholic beliefs.

Instead, she takes dangerous and insane amounts of Advil to cope with the pain.

She doesn't have children, and doesn't have to work, so she is not "inconveniencing" anyone with her suffering.

Lord only knows what she would do if she had a child to care for.

So please, leave this issue between a couple and their priest, right where it belongs.

For you see, a woman's period can be more than just an inconvenience, or the butt of a bad joke. It can really disrupt and ruin a person's life.

Lord have mercy. :crosseo:

In XC,

Maureen

[Lotar]

The barrier method does not help with that time of the month.

I don't think many realize how disabling a woman's period can be. I have a friend who literally just lies in the shower bleeding in pain every month.

She refuses to take the pill b/c of her Catholic beliefs.

Instead, she takes dangerous and insane amounts of Advil to cope with the pain.

She doesn't have children, and doesn't have to work, so she is not "inconveniencing" anyone with her suffering.

Lord only knows what she would do if she had a child to care for.

So please, leave this issue between a couple and their priest, right where it belongs.

For you see, a woman's period can be more than just an inconvenience, or the butt of a bad joke. It can really disrupt and ruin a person's life.

Lord have mercy. :crosseo:

In XC,

Maureen

Did you even read the things I wrote, or did you just feel like picking part of it out and making assumtions about what I meant by it? :sigh:

1. I wasn't even specifically refering to the pill. All birth control in general is allowed only as economy. The pill is special in that it's tertiary measure is abortion of the embryo.

2. I know full well about problems some women have. My little sister is on the pill for this reason.

3. I think it's been assumed that medical problems can be a reason for economy being allowed.

4. If your friend has strong enough convictions to stick through the pain, then more power to her.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I don't think many realize how disabling a woman's period can be. I have a friend who literally just lies in the shower bleeding in pain every month.

She refuses to take the pill b/c of her Catholic beliefs.

Instead, she takes dangerous and insane amounts of Advil to cope with the pain.

Does the Catholic church forbid the Pill even for medical reasons??? I always hoped it would allow it, especially considering that I almost married a Catholic. I can't imagine going through what I did and not having a medication for it....

[ufonium2]

Instead, she takes dangerous and insane amounts of Advil to cope with the pain.


Wouldn't her doctor rather she took something else, like percocet or something?

[She]

Does the Catholic church forbid the Pill even for medical reasons??? I always hoped it would allow it, especially considering that I almost married a Catholic. I can't imagine going through what I did and not having a medication for it....

In the sixties when "Humanae Vitae" was written by Pope Paul VI, it was not known that the pill could work as an abortificient. Therefore, in the Encyclical it was written (by the Pope) that the pill could be taken for "therapeutic reasons". Now, however, some Roman Catholics are saying that if a woman has to use the pill for medical reasons, she must abstain from sexual relations with her husband. It is not clear whether this abstinance should be permanent (whilst she is taking the pill) or just temporary during the fertile time of the month.


Lord only knows what she would do if she had a child to care for.


Pregnancy and childbirth often gets rid of the pain. I had severe dysmenorrhoea for 20 years. I would even faint with the pain, it was so bad. I had to take muscle relaxants and extra strong (codeine) painkillers. I had to take a day off work each month. But, after having my first child, I have never had that pain again. Thanks be to God.

My priest said that when their medical problems, non-abortive birth control is permitted. Normally, the OC doesn't permit a tubaligation, because it permanently alters the body, but you had it done prior to conversion. I doubt any priest would tell you that you couldn't become Orthodox or had to have it reversed, but you should still discuss it with a priest.

You are so lucky. I wish I could join your Church. I've been through hell with the RC Church. I am not fit for any more pregnancies but they have showed me no mercy. NFP does not work for me. I got pregnant several times whilst using it. Now, if I get pregnant again I might die. You would expect a Christian Church to permit its members to use a barrier contraceptive in order to preserve their life but, no. So, I am about to have my child confirmed in the Anglican Church but that is not the right choice either. We need prayers. (Unfortunately, we do not live near an EO Church. Also, because we have a handicapped child it would be difficult to go to a 3 hour service on a Sunday.)

[NyssaTheHobbit]

In the sixties when "Humanae Vitae" was written by Pope Paul VI, it was not known that the pill could work as an abortificient. Therefore, in the Encyclical it was written (by the Pope) that the pill could be taken for "therapeutic reasons". Now, however, some Roman Catholics are saying that if a woman has to use the pill for medical reasons, she must abstain from sexual relations with her husband. It is not clear whether this abstinance should be permanent (whilst she is taking the pill) or just temporary during the fertile time of the month.

:eek: If I'd married my ex-fiance in the Catholic church as he wanted, I imagine we'd be divorced now if that was the requirement! (I don't want to go into details, but he had self-control issues. I don't think he'd want a wife who couldn't sleep with him.) I was only 23 when I had to go on the Pill. How can young people be expected to abstain entirely? These rules are unworkable for the people who have to live under them.

Pregnancy and childbirth often gets rid of the pain. I had severe dysmenorrhoea for 20 years. I would even faint with the pain, it was so bad. I had to take muscle relaxants and extra strong (codeine) painkillers. I had to take a day off work each month. But, after having my first child, I have never had that pain again. Thanks be to God.

You are so lucky. I wish I could join your Church. I've been through hell with the RC Church. I am not fit for any more pregnancies but they have showed me no mercy. NFP does not work for me. I got pregnant several times whilst using it. Now, if I get pregnant again I might die. You would expect a Christian Church to permit its members to use a barrier contraceptive in order to preserve their life but, no. So, I am about to have my child confirmed in the Anglican Church but that is not the right choice either. We need prayers. (Unfortunately, we do not live near an EO Church. Also, because we have a handicapped child it would be difficult to go to a 3 hour service on a Sunday.)

:prayer:

[skoi]

Question from an inquirer here please!

If someone in the couple had an "irreversible procedure" as a result of a bad choice (and much arguing, let me tell you) would it be necessary to try and surgically undo it before/upon coming into the church?

Also- unrelated but just occurring to me- if we were married only by a j.p., never in the church, would we have to get married again in a church ceremony?

Thanks.

(I'd ask our priest, but we don't have a priest yet, we're still looking.)

[Asinner]

Question from an inquirer here please!

If someone in the couple had an "irreversible procedure" as a result of a bad choice (and much arguing, let me tell you) would it be necessary to try and surgically undo it before/upon coming into the church?

No. :)

Also- unrelated but just occurring to me- if we were married only by a j.p., never in the church, would we have to get married again in a church ceremony?

We did. It was beyond beautiful. :)

God Bless

[tidbit]

How old were some of you when your youngest child was born?

If you are the husband, how old was your wife?

My wife is 37, and I would think we are still a ways from menopause...

[ufonium2]

If the pill can and does sometimes act as an abortificant, then by using it to relieve cramps you are essentially saying that abortion is (or should be) okay for period relief, right?

[Matrona]

If the pill can and does sometimes act as an abortificant, then by using it to relieve cramps you are essentially saying that abortion is (or should be) okay for period relief, right?

Lotar (I think) said that an Orthodox woman needing to be on the pill for her menstrual cramps would use a barrier method in addition to the pill, to eliminate the risk of abortion.

[ufonium2]

Lotar (I think) said that an Orthodox woman needing to be on the pill for her menstrual cramps would use a barrier method in addition to the pill, to eliminate the risk of abortion.

I saw that, but it was also the first I've ever heard (or read) about that practice. I think it's a good one, if there's a real, serious need for being on the pill (but I've had friends get prescribed the pill for everything from acne to anemia, so I'm generally pretty skeptical), but I've just never known anyone to do it.

[Orthocat]

How old were some of you when your youngest child was born?

If you are the husband, how old was your wife?

My wife is 37, and I would think we are still a ways from menopause...


My youngest is 5, and I was 40 when he was hatched.
My wife was 37.
Never go to Cancun in the spring...;)

[Matrona]

I saw that, but it was also the first I've ever heard (or read) about that practice. I think it's a good one,

Same for me (in that this is the first I've heard of such a practice, and that I think it's a good one).

if there's a real, serious need for being on the pill (but I've had friends get prescribed the pill for everything from acne to anemia, so I'm generally pretty skeptical), but I've just never known anyone to do it.

That annoys me, too. Gynecologists like to pressure girls who aren't having sex into going on the pill for acne or regulating their periods. Then the girl meets some guy she really likes and suddenly "hey, I'm on the pill anyway, so I can do whatever I want with this cuuuute guy..." :doh:

Even my own mother tried to pressure me into going on the pill, for my acne, even trying to convince me that my periods are irregular/particularly heavy/painful (they're not) to get me to take it like my sister. I don't know why; maybe she was just afraid of one of us might get preggers out of wedlock. But I saw my sister tumble down the same slope noted above, and I've always been pro-life and had already known about the pill's little abortifacient "contingency plan". I would rather flush them down the toilet than take them, and I told my mother so, and she finally dropped the subject, but geez! :eek:

For my acne, I take Accutane, which is extremely teratogenic and there are tons of warnings all over the box about not taking it while you're pregnant, and despite not being sexually active, I have to get a serum pregnancy test every single month and pass a test on birth control just to get qualified to fill my prescription. Girls who take it and are sexually active have to swear to use two kinds of birth control, and they can't just be any kind, a primary form has to be one of the hormonal methods (and I don't trust any of those to not be abortifacient) and you also have to use a secondary method.

I'm not married so this is a moot issue, but I wonder what a married Orthodox woman would have to do if she had to take Accutane... maybe she would have to abstain from sex, or else make sure her secondary method was a barrier method... I don't know.

[choirfiend]

I dont think she would on the off chance of getting pregnant and having a severely deformed child.

What are the risks associated with becoming pregnant years AFTER taking Accutane? You sometimes hear about long term affects long after a perscription has finished. Do they talk about that?

[Matrona]

What are the risks associated with becoming pregnant years AFTER taking Accutane? You sometimes hear about long term affects long after a perscription has finished. Do they talk about that?

That's a good question, because Accutane is supposed to interfere with DNA transcription (although no one knows exactly how) and acne typically never comes back once you're finished with it. (That's probably why it's still on the market despite all the dangers (there's also a risk of suicidal depression, permanent blindness and deafness, etc.), because it's the only thing that works against severe recalcitrant nodular acne and it works so well.)

The drug needs about a month to clear one's system, so I would have to continue using birth control for one month after finishing, and not give blood, etc. After a month has passed since finishing Accutane, there is no more risk for pregnancy as far as my doctor knows.

One isn't supposed to get dermabrasion/chemical peels for six months after finishing Accutane, but that's because the drug does some pretty rough stuff to one's skin and it needs time to recover.

[Mary of Bethany]

How old were some of you when your youngest child was born?

If you are the husband, how old was your wife?

My wife is 37, and I would think we are still a ways from menopause...

I was 22, hubby 21 with our first. Our second came just under 5 years later.

So our younger started college when we were still in our mid-40s, and out of the house by the time we were 50. :thumbsup:

I'm just now going through menopause, which is no fun.

Mary

[Lotar]

Lotar (I think) said that an Orthodox woman needing to be on the pill for her menstrual cramps would use a barrier method in addition to the pill, to eliminate the risk of abortion.

That was just my opinion. I remember someone at some time posted that this was what their priest had them do, and it seemed pretty reasonable.

[authiodionitist]

I'm just a curious youth and unmarried, but how do contraceptives workas an Orthodox family? I was under the impression that non-abortive measures (condom, NFP, etc.) are acceptable. In any case my inquiry is simply for knowledge. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to have a family or not yet....

Thanks.

[kamikat]

When I first began meeting with my priest, I asked him what the typical view of birth control is. He said that generally he does not approve of it in newly married couples unless there are unusual circumstances, medical reasons, both husband and wife in college, husband deployed, ect. If it is approved for one of these reasons, it is expected that the new couple have babies as soon as these situations are eliminated. Once the couple has 2 or more children, he is more inclined to approve of birth control. He has said that he would not marry a couple that planned on never having babies. The key to birth control is to limit babies, not eliminate babies.

[MariaRegina]

The barrier method does not help with that time of the month.

I don't think many realize how disabling a woman's period can be. I have a friend who literally just lies in the shower bleeding in pain every month.

She refuses to take the pill b/c of her Catholic beliefs.

Instead, she takes dangerous and insane amounts of Advil to cope with the pain.

She doesn't have children, and doesn't have to work, so she is not "inconveniencing" anyone with her suffering.

Lord only knows what she would do if she had a child to care for.

So please, leave this issue between a couple and their priest, right where it belongs.

For you see, a woman's period can be more than just an inconvenience, or the butt of a bad joke. It can really disrupt and ruin a person's life.

Lord have mercy. :crosseo:

In XC,

Maureen

I had the same problem as your friend when I was younger. I ended up anemic and had to be transported to the hospital emergency room because I fainted due to the pain.

Finally, I went to an M.D. who practiced preventative medicine. He recommended that before I retired for the evening that I take:

50 mg of Vitamin B6 (capsule form) - but not taking more than 250 mg of B6 in one day.

500 mg of Magnesium (preferably a chelated form again served in a capsule for easy assimilation.)

Within one month, my cramps were gone, unless I forgot to take the suggested supplements.

He also recommended lots of brown rice and plenty of green fresh veggies like broccoli.