OPEN THREAD on the First Amendment.

[JacobHall86]

I heard something a while ago that I think is very important for people to understand. The First Amendment isnt around to protect the speech you like, its to protect the speech you dont like.

[arunma]

Quite true. The First Amendment wouldn't be very powerful if we could censor speech that we found offensive.

Incidentally, I think we should remember that the First Amendment is man's law and not God's law (in fact, the theocracy of Israel did not protect free speech). Not that this makes free speech bad, but it's something to consider, especially since this is a religious forum.

[JacobHall86]

I mean its a privately owned forum, so you dont have any constitutional rights that they dont allow you to have, but its more of something that alot of people here need to learn.

[christian73]

I think it's sad when we see christians at each other's throats sometimes. If we (me included) acted as christians should all the time, would free speech even be an issue?

[JacobHall86]

I think it's sad when we see christians at each other's throats sometimes. If we (me included) acted as christians should all the time, would free speech even be an issue?

That would require alot of people(myself included) to do alot more studying.

[christian73]

That would require alot of people(myself included) to do alot more studying.
I agree. I realize that we aren't perfect. I also realize that we can say things we don't mean in the heat of a debate. Shouldn't we be christian enough to apologize when we say such things? God doesn't like when his children tear each other down.

[DeaconDean]

In the first place, free speech isn't free. How many men and women gave their lives to protect the right of any individual to say what they want. The New Testament records Jesus' words as such:

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." -Mt. 18:6

Look closely at that word offend. What is implied here is words or deeds. Paul told the Christians in Philippi:

"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;"-Phil. 1:27

We as Christians, are to speak as a Christian should. Be mindful of our brothers and sisters. The founding fathers wrote the first amendment on the basis that at their time, if one spoke out against the government or the church, one could be put to death. It would be regretable for us not to remember this. I also realize that sometimes it is better to let "sleeping dogs lie." But sometimes we should stand up for what we believe. And our first amendment right allows this to go both ways. As one who has served this great country, I have defended your right to say whatever is on your mind. I even defended the right of those who perpetuate the "Aryian Race." Although I disagree strongly with them, they have every right to say whatever they wish. That is why God gave us (born-again Christians) the eyes and ears to discern the good and the bad. While I try not to offend, I sometimes do here on the forums. And I will if I offend, I will be humble enough to apologize. We are are human. And we will offend from time to time. But if we humble ourselves before God and our brothers when we offend. The blessings from above will shower down on us.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[UBERROGO]

Quite true. The First Amendment wouldn't be very powerful if we could censor speech that we found offensive.

Incidentally, I think we should remember that the First Amendment is man's law and not God's law (in fact, the theocracy of Israel did not protect free speech). Not that this makes free speech bad, but it's something to consider, especially since this is a religious forum.

Why should I consider this? Please explain. NM I realized this isnt an open forum sorry.

[arunma]

Why should I consider this? Please explain. NM I realized this isnt an open forum sorry.

I mentioned that only because we often talk about our "God given rights," but not asking ourselves precisely what rights God gives us. From the Bible, I can't seem to find many rights that God gives us (though I do find a good deal of grace). I'm not against free speech by any means. I just encourage everyone to remember that this right is not an intrinsic, God-given right.

[UBERROGO]

You don't believe speaking is a God given right or is it that you dont believe speaking about what ever you want (and being moral about it) is a God given right? I don't think any Christians believe that you can talk about anything and everything that is of an evil nature.

As far as the 1st Amendment is concerned though, evil speach is protected because those that see evil as good will think it moral to outlaw the good which they perceive as evil. So in conclusion I think that it is in the nations best interest to allow people to say what ever they want in public places and only the owners of private property have the right to restrict speach on thier own land./soapbox

Thanks for opening the thread, I didnt want to get a warning for posting in a Baptist forum since I am Lutheran.

[HypoTypoSis]

You walk into someone else's home and you are no longer in a democracy. At best, as with God, you have entered the Twilight Zone governed, hopefully, by a benevolent dictatorship. So, check your Constitutional hats of democracy at the door. It is the law of the land. When in Rome...

[UBERROGO]

You walk into someone else's home and you are no longer in a democracy. At best, as with God, you have entered the Twilight Zone governed, hopefully, by a benevolent dictatorship. So, check your Constitutional hats of democracy at the door. It is the law of the land. When in Rome...huh?

[JacobHall86]

You arent in a Democracy to begin with.

[eldermike]

While I was God's enemy, Jesus died for me. God expects sinners to sin. We spend way to much time trying to clean up sinners.

On censorship: I censor speech in my home, in my church. If I owned a website I would censor speech on it. But in the public arena I would never censor speech. Why? - It's sin, this is what we are convicted of, this is the thing that breaks us and draws us to God. Take away the sin, take away the conviction, Satan wins the souls of the self made righteous followers of mans law.

John the Baptists said "repent".............if you make sin against mans law there is no need to repent.

The church needs to get out of the business of cleaning fish and get back to fishing.

[christian73]

While I was God's enemy, Jesus died for me. God expects sinners to sin. We spend way to much time trying to clean up sinners.

On censorship: I censor speech in my home, in my church. If I owned a website I would censor speech on it. But in the public arena I would never censor speech. Why? - It's sin, this is what we are convicted of, this is the thing that breaks us and draws us to God. Take away the sin, take away the conviction, Satan wins the souls of the self made righteous followers of mans law.

John the Baptists said "repent".............if you make sin against mans law there is no need to repent.

The church needs to get out of the business of cleaning fish and get back to fishing.
I agree with that completely. I think that some churches are more worried about offending people than preaching and teaching the Word of God.

[InDeoHonorium2]

Great Thread

The idea is simple. In America, we live under the laws of Congress as set forth by the Constitution, the greatest political document ever concieved. Not by the Bible, The Torah, The Koran, the Book of Mormon, but under the laws of our government. All of us do.
The Constitution guides what the governement can and cannot govern. Sppech, religion, press etc are mentioned specifically.
The Laws are then made by the governement, either at a federal level or a state and local level by elected leaders.
The laws are not made by leaders of churches, unless that said leader is a duly elected official; and if so, then he or she muct follow constitutional guidelines.

Many subscribe to authority of a church, or perhaps a book like the Bibile, but in reality these are only options.
As far as censorship, who really has the right to try to censor others? no one.
Now again, I am not being a hypocrit here. I don't let mu kids watch wrestling or pornography, so in a way that is censorship. But I don't tell other adults they can't, only that they cannot on my property ....
Likewise drinking. Since I am of legal age, the only reason I cannot have a beer or three is if I am operating a motor vehicle, or responsible for the care or well being of others under me, vis a vis the kids again......
I cannot be told , for example, by a church, not to drink, because a church has no authority to tell me not to....
I can however, be arrested if I drink and drive. If that happened, I would have to face a court and answer for the crime based on the laws of the municipality. I might end up paying a fine or losing my driving priveledges. Good reason not to.
I don't think the judge would say "Well let's see what the Bible or the local pastor has to say about your crime" because I cannot legally be forced into following a belief system that is not right for me. The constitution protects me from that.

It does not protect me from all sorts of people who want to try to preach their religion or beliefs to others, but it does allow me to turn a deaf ear.
It also allows me to bypass religion and be one of the few who have the supernatural communion directly with God, without the need for humans......If I lived in a theocracy, or a dictatorship, I'd probably be taken out and crucified on a cross for that sort of a thing.... Thank God (or Allah, or Jehova, or Yahweh , or the godress if you prefer {they are all the same BTW}) I live in America. Amen to that.

[UBERROGO]

Great Thread

The idea is simple. In America, we live under the laws of Congress as set forth by the Constitution, the greatest political document ever concieved. Not by the Bible, The Torah, The Koran, the Book of Mormon, but under the laws of our government. All of us do.
The Constitution guides what the governement can and cannot govern. Sppech, religion, press etc are mentioned specifically.
The Laws are then made by the governement, either at a federal level or a state and local level by elected leaders.
The laws are not made by leaders of churches, unless that said leader is a duly elected official; and if so, then he or she muct follow constitutional guidelines.

Many subscribe to authority of a church, or perhaps a book like the Bibile, but in reality these are only options.
As far as censorship, who really has the right to try to censor others? no one.
Now again, I am not being a hypocrit here. I don't let mu kids watch wrestling or pornography, so in a way that is censorship. But I don't tell other adults they can't, only that they cannot on my property ....
Likewise drinking. Since I am of legal age, the only reason I cannot have a beer or three is if I am operating a motor vehicle, or responsible for the care or well being of others under me, vis a vis the kids again......
I cannot be told , for example, by a church, not to drink, because a church has no authority to tell me not to....
I can however, be arrested if I drink and drive. If that happened, I would have to face a court and answer for the crime based on the laws of the municipality. I might end up paying a fine or losing my driving priveledges. Good reason not to.
I don't think the judge would say "Well let's see what the Bible or the local pastor has to say about your crime" because I cannot legally be forced into following a belief system that is not right for me. The constitution protects me from that.

It does not protect me from all sorts of people who want to try to preach their religion or beliefs to others, but it does allow me to turn a deaf ear.
It also allows me to bypass religion and be one of the few who have the supernatural communion directly with God, without the need for humans......If I lived in a theocracy, or a dictatorship, I'd probably be taken out and crucified on a cross for that sort of a thing.... Thank God (or Allah, or Jehova, or Yahweh , or the godress if you prefer {they are all the same BTW}) I live in America. Amen to that.Are you an Unitarian? PM the answer if you'd like.

[RichardT]

Great Thread

The idea is simple. In America, we live under the laws of Congress as set forth by the Constitution, the greatest political document ever concieved. Not by the Bible, The Torah, The Koran, the Book of Mormon, but under the laws of our government. All of us do.
The Constitution guides what the governement can and cannot govern. Sppech, religion, press etc are mentioned specifically.
The Laws are then made by the governement, either at a federal level or a state and local level by elected leaders.
The laws are not made by leaders of churches, unless that said leader is a duly elected official; and if so, then he or she muct follow constitutional guidelines.

Many subscribe to authority of a church, or perhaps a book like the Bibile, but in reality these are only options.
As far as censorship, who really has the right to try to censor others? no one.
Now again, I am not being a hypocrit here. I don't let mu kids watch wrestling or pornography, so in a way that is censorship. But I don't tell other adults they can't, only that they cannot on my property ....
Likewise drinking. Since I am of legal age, the only reason I cannot have a beer or three is if I am operating a motor vehicle, or responsible for the care or well being of others under me, vis a vis the kids again......
I cannot be told , for example, by a church, not to drink, because a church has no authority to tell me not to....
I can however, be arrested if I drink and drive. If that happened, I would have to face a court and answer for the crime based on the laws of the municipality. I might end up paying a fine or losing my driving priveledges. Good reason not to.
I don't think the judge would say "Well let's see what the Bible or the local pastor has to say about your crime" because I cannot legally be forced into following a belief system that is not right for me. The constitution protects me from that.

It does not protect me from all sorts of people who want to try to preach their religion or beliefs to others, but it does allow me to turn a deaf ear.
It also allows me to bypass religion and be one of the few who have the supernatural communion directly with God, without the need for humans......If I lived in a theocracy, or a dictatorship, I'd probably be taken out and crucified on a cross for that sort of a thing.... Thank God (or Allah, or Jehova, or Yahweh , or the godress if you prefer {they are all the same BTW}) I live in America. Amen to that.

People with beliefs like this pass off as christians now?

[JacobHall86]

Great Thread

The idea is simple. In America, we live under the laws of Congress as set forth by the Constitution, the greatest political document ever concieved. Not by the Bible, The Torah, The Koran, the Book of Mormon, but under the laws of our government. All of us do.
The Constitution guides what the governement can and cannot govern. Sppech, religion, press etc are mentioned specifically.
The Laws are then made by the governement, either at a federal level or a state and local level by elected leaders.
The laws are not made by leaders of churches, unless that said leader is a duly elected official; and if so, then he or she muct follow constitutional guidelines.

Many subscribe to authority of a church, or perhaps a book like the Bibile, but in reality these are only options.
As far as censorship, who really has the right to try to censor others? no one.
Now again, I am not being a hypocrit here. I don't let mu kids watch wrestling or pornography, so in a way that is censorship. But I don't tell other adults they can't, only that they cannot on my property ....
Likewise drinking. Since I am of legal age, the only reason I cannot have a beer or three is if I am operating a motor vehicle, or responsible for the care or well being of others under me, vis a vis the kids again......
I cannot be told , for example, by a church, not to drink, because a church has no authority to tell me not to....
I can however, be arrested if I drink and drive. If that happened, I would have to face a court and answer for the crime based on the laws of the municipality. I might end up paying a fine or losing my driving priveledges. Good reason not to.
I don't think the judge would say "Well let's see what the Bible or the local pastor has to say about your crime" because I cannot legally be forced into following a belief system that is not right for me. The constitution protects me from that.

It does not protect me from all sorts of people who want to try to preach their religion or beliefs to others, but it does allow me to turn a deaf ear.
It also allows me to bypass religion and be one of the few who have the supernatural communion directly with God, without the need for humans......If I lived in a theocracy, or a dictatorship, I'd probably be taken out and crucified on a cross for that sort of a thing.... Thank God (or Allah, or Jehova, or Yahweh , or the godress if you prefer {they are all the same BTW}) I live in America. Amen to that.

You were pretty good until the last section, thats just nonsense.

[christian73]

Thank God (or Allah, or Jehova, or Yahweh , or the godress if you prefer {they are all the same BTW}) I live in America. Amen to that.

They are not the same. Nowhere in the Bible does it use the name Allah or a godess. There is only one God, and that is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is referred to as Jehova and Yahweh.

[UBERROGO]

They are not the same. Nowhere in the Bible does it use the name Allah or a godess. There is only one God, and that is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is referred to as Jehova and Yahweh.

You are speaking out of ignorance as the word Allah is the Arabian word for God. The Arabian Christians use the term Allah to refer to God the Father. At least they do in Iraq and Kurdistan. But I know what you mean, that the god Muslims serve isnt the God that Christians serve.

[christian73]

You are speaking out of ignorance as the word Allah is the Arabian word for God. The Arabian Christians use the term Allah to refer to God the Father. At least they do in Iraq and Kurdistan. But I know what you mean, that the god Muslims serve isnt the God that Christians serve.
I apologize if I misunderstood you. I can't speak to the Arabian word. When I saw the word Allah, I just assumed and knew that name was not in the Bible. I'm glad we agree on my point though. I feel better.

[HypoTypoSis]

You are speaking out of ignorance as the word Allah is the Arabian word for God. The Arabian Christians use the term Allah to refer to God the Father. At least they do in Iraq and Kurdistan. But I know what you mean, that the god Muslims serve isnt the God that Christians serve.



http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/graphics/oneilah.gif
"Truly, your god is truly One!" [Qur'an (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/) 37:4]-About Allah, USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/)

It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah.-USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.html)


In the Judeo-Christian belief the term, "god", is not a name, it is title of office, like 'President', and is not a personal name. Obviously, the personal name for the God of the Jews and Christians is not the same as for Muslims. Nor does it appear they are the same gods. THe Muslims may trace their roots back to Abraham but it takes more than physical roots to come to God for none may come to the Father but through The Son.


Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.

The concept that God rested in the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, or that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.-USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.html)

And that view is blasphemous from a Christian viewpoint.