Question(s) about Orthodoxy

[Knowledge3]

What makes a person Orthodox?


If I want to convert to EO, what are the first initial steps that I would need to take to begin my inquiry into the Orthodox Church?

[PrincessMommy]

Assuming that you have read a bit about Orthodoxy.... The first thing you should do is find an EO church and call to speak with the priest.

Go here: http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.org/ and plink in your addy to find some parishes. After you've been to some services I'm sure you'll have many more questions.

[ClementofRome]

Welcome to TAW K3. Please feel free to poke around and raise any questions that you might have. Check out the STICKIES at the top of the TAW page.

Enjoy. Relax. :)

Uncle Clem

[eoe]

Welcome to TAW!

#1 priority - get to the Divine Liturgy as soon as possible.

[ModernDaySpyridon]

What makes a person Orthodox?


If I want to convert to EO, what are the first initial steps that I would need to take to begin my inquiry into the Orthodox Church?

Welcome to TAW!

It's always nice to see a new face!

And yes, go to a Divine Liturgy, aka, Sunday morning service, or barring that, Vespers on Sat. night.

One of the most foundational aspects of Orthodoxy is that it cannot simply be grasped with the intellect; it must be experienced with all the senses.

Many of us on TAW (myself included ;) ) were at one point Protestant, so therefore many of us have been in your shoes.

Welcome!

[Breaking Babylon]

Welcome to TAW!

#1 priority - get to the Divine Liturgy as soon as possible.

I second both statements.

I'd recommend doing some reading on Orthodoxy. Pick up Mountain of Silence and read some of the sayings of the Desert Fathers. Ask lots of questions here at TAW. You'll be well on your way.

[eoe]

As far as what makes one Orthodox - it is a matter of living within the Liturgical and Sacramental life of the Church.

[Breaking Babylon]

As far as what makes one Orthodox - it is a matter of living within the Liturgical and Sacramental life of the Church.

Which in a sense kind of says that until you've been baptized and chrismated into the Church, you're not Orthodox, you're an inquirer or catechumen. It isn't like the majority of protestant churches where you begin coming to services and sign a little card, Orthodoxy fully envelops your life. It's much bigger than Sunday.

Someone tell me if I'm wrong, here. I'm only an inquirer at this point myself.

Forgive me if I offend you in some way, I don't know much of your spiritual life or where you're coming from.

[Knowledge3]

I've read the Desert Fathers, and Orthodoxy in America, and various religious material on the internet.

I made an effort to convert to the Catholic Church, but that effort did not work out for me, at all. I saw 666 on the church hymal!

Maybe it is not God's plan for me to become Catholic.

[kamikat]

Have you been to the website that princessmommy recommended and located a church near you? A priest will be able to guide you in your journey.

kamika

[PrincessMommy]

I second both statements.

I'd recommend doing some reading on Orthodoxy. Pick up Mountain of Silence and read some of the sayings of the Desert Fathers.

I think this book would be quite inappropriate for an Orthodox inquirer.

Knowledge3 - try to make contact with a priest. Discuss with him what you have already read and he will be able to give you some advice as far as reading goes.

[Knowledge3]

The closest one to me is St. Barbara Mission in Ft. Worth.

I have a heart for God and want to seek Him through orthodoxy.

[kamikat]

I thought you said that you were moving over the summer?

[EricTheRed]

You are near Ft. Worth? I go to St. Seraphim Cathedral in Dallas. You should go to the festival of Orthodoxy.

http://www.ntom.org/

[DonVA]

Get thee to a priest! Attend a Divine Liturgy. Ask lots of questions! Feel free to pick our brains... Welcome to TAW! :wave:

Then, surf through our conversion stories in the stickies. You might see a little of yourself in them.

[Knowledge3]

Have you been to the website that princessmommy recommended and located a church near you? A priest will be able to guide you in your journey.

kamika



Aren't we all on this journey alone? Because that is how I feel.

[Knowledge3]

I thought you said that you were moving over the summer?



Nope.

Complete change of plans, my world got turned upside down.

[Akathist]

knowledge3,

You and I have talked about this before. To convert to the EOC you will need to travel to an Orthodox Church and regularly attend services and meet with the Priest.

Last I knew, you said there were none near you. But if you found one close enough, then go as soon as possible.

The first step is really attending the services.

You can not know anything really about our faith without being a part of our liturgical life. (like eoe and Blake said above.)

[DonVA]

I think while we're all responsible for ourselves as individuals, we are very much on this journey together. It takes a lot of love, understanding, and forgiveness by each of us and for each of us to get to where we want to be. There are friends and family and saints and Christ Himself around us and within us to help guide us.

I have never felt alone in the Orthodox faith.

[Akathist]

Aren't we all on this journey alone? Because that is how I feel.

Also, you can not convert to the Eastern Orthodox faith alone. It is not possible. You must do so under the guidance of a Priest. In fact, all Orthodox remain under the guidance of our Priests.

[DonVA]

Exactly, XR. I would be completely lost without my priest.

[Mytheodos]

I suggest you arm yourself with a little bit of knowledge
before attending a liturgy.
i suggest reading "The orthodox church" By kallistos ware,"The orthodox Way" By Kallistos ware.If you could find a book on the divine liturgy with commentary(i recently ordered from amazon The divine liturgy,A commentary by nicolas cabasilas.
I found a web site with a live broadcast of the divine liturgy at goholycross.org
Books and videos will never replace a living experience,but it does help in sort of breaking the ice!
Mytheodos.:)

[Knowledge3]

Ok.

Here is my first Orthodox question:

Is God's love extended toward us, or do we must first seek Him according to our efforts?

[Asinner]

Ok.

Here is my first Orthodox question:

Is God's love extended toward us, or do we must first seek Him according to our efforts?


I have used this example many times on GT . . . God loves us before we can ever love Him. Infant baptism is a perfect example of this. A child is welcomed into His House and receives His Spirit and partakes of Him, all without knowledge of good or evil, all without the ability to repent. We baptize infants not because they believe (seeking Him first), but in order that they might believe (His love extended toward us first).

God Bless :)

[Mary of Bethany]

Welcome to TAW, knowledge3!

There are at least 3 posters in TAW who attend St. Barbara's in Fort Worth. I'm sure they will be more than happy to help you in any way you need. They are also converts, like most of us, so we understand all the questions and feelings you may have as you move toward Orthodoxy.

See if you can get in touch with Fr. Basil at St. Barbara.

Mary

[Knowledge3]

Also, you can not convert to the Eastern Orthodox faith alone. It is not possible. You must do so under the guidance of a Priest. In fact, all Orthodox remain under the guidance of our Priests.


I would have to move to Ft. Worth.

[gzt]

I suppose for some reason people thought you were there already. I recommend you find a parish near you and start attending regularly. That's the best way to see what we're all about and start inquiring after the faith.

[Knowledge3]

Forgive me if I offend you in some way, I don't know much of your spiritual life or where you're coming from.


You won't offend me.

My spiritual life is about seeking Jesus, and is summed-up by the Orthodox Prayer from the Desert.

[ModernDaySpyridon]

Ok.

Here is my first Orthodox question:

Is God's love extended toward us, or do we must first seek Him according to our efforts?


Both. ;)

God loves us more than we could ever know or comprehend, but he also respects the freedom that he put into us and never compells us to love him.

Even our efforts are made possible by the grace of God that he gives to all people, but love cannot be coerced, so like the father of the Prodigal Son, he doesn't go tear us out of the pig pen, kicking and screaming, and make us come home with him.

He waits, and watches patiently, and when the son takes the first steps back, simply hoping that his father would take him as a servent "...while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him."

It is cooperation, not compulsion, and we are sustained and supported by the love and the energies of God.

[Knowledge3]

What do the Orthodox believe about the soul of a person when he/she dies?

According to this Scripture:

Ephesians 5:13-14

[eoe]

What do the Orthodox believe about the soul of a person when he/she dies?



We are judged in a specific judgement and then we have a foretaste of our eternal state that will come after the general and final judgement.

[choirfiend]

We are spiritually dead NOW before baptism where we die and arise with Christ, who gives us Eternal Life. That is what that quote refers to----not to the state of people after their earthly body dies.

[Knowledge3]

I don't like the KJV. Scriptural interpretation is important to me because I study them daily.

Here is the Literal-Greek/English interpretation:


Ephesians 5.13-14
But all things are clearly exposed by the light are clearly revealed,for everything having been revealed is light. Therefore, He says, "Arise, sleeping one, and stand up out of the dead ones, and Christ will shine on you."


My current understanding of the verse is Christ is an act of redemption,redeeming a person from the grave, that is death. The light exposes our sin and reveals our thoughts and secrets, because darkness has no fellowship with light - who is Christ.

[Knowledge3]

We are spiritually dead NOW before baptism where we die and arise with Christ, who gives us Eternal Life. That is what that quote refers to----not to the state of people after their earthly body dies.


Does the Orthodox Church or do the Desert Fathers teach that interpretation?

How are the Orthodox expected to read Holy Scripture?

[Knowledge3]

We are judged in a specific judgement and then we have a foretaste of our eternal state that will come after the general and final judgement.




What is the Orthodox view on Original Sin?

[Happy Orthodox]

I don't like the KJV. Scriptural interpretation is important to me because I study them daily.

Here is the Literal-Greek/English interpretation:


Ephesians 5.13-14
But all things are clearly exposed by the light are clearly revealed,for everything having been revealed is light. Therefore, He says, "Arise, sleeping one, and stand up out of the dead ones, and Christ will shine on you."


My current understanding of the verse is Christ is an act of redemption,redeeming a person from the grave, that is death. The light exposes our sin and reveals our thoughts and secrets, because darkness has no fellowship with light - who is Christ.

What is the Orthodox view on Original Sin?

I am not sure how that verse is interpreted, but in my Orthodox New Testament the commentary of St. John Crysostom to verse 13 reads that it is a sinner who is shone on with light, and his sin is illumined, he repents and becomes light himslef. But he also sais that an alternative explanation is the life being manifest that is your light, and that only something "irreproachable" is revealed, something that is of the darkness stays hidden in the dark. I think it echoes with what Christ said that a burning candle cannot be put under a vessel but is revealed so all can see. And in another place He said that those who are of light are attracted to the Light so that their deeds may be revealed. Those who are of darkness remain in the darkness.
Then the next verse (as I understand it) would mean a call to follow Christ who will reveal your sin so that you could repent and become light.


The Original Sin doesn't exist. Some call it the "ansestral sin". It was a personal and free choice of Adam and Eve, we have no share in their guilt. All we get is the consequence of corrupt nature.

[Knowledge3]

We are spiritually dead NOW before baptism where we die and arise with Christ, who gives us Eternal Life. That is what that quote refers to----not to the state of people after their earthly body dies.


What is the Orthodox view on Atonement?

[eoe]

What is the Orthodox view on Original Sin?We do not have the doctrine of Original sin or the immaculate conception (of Mary).

We are the children of fallen beings so we take on the nature of that which gave us birth. That is to say that a duck has ducklings and fallen men produce fallen children. We are broken and are unable to fix ourselves. This does include infants. They require a savior just as anyone else would. Not because they are guilty and require a juridical forgiveness but because they are also fallen beings.

If course that is not to say that infants are going to hell. God will have mercy on those whom he will have mercy. We know that God is kind and loving and wishes all men to be saved.


What is the Orthodox view on Atonement?This ties in with the last statements as well.

Given that we are all fallen beings - broken people - we are all in need of fixing. Those of us that have lived a little while have committed some sin and are indeed guilty so for us there is indeed some element of a juridical forgiveness but it does not end there. Our juridical forgiveness is the very beginning of the process of salvation. We need to be fixed.

In the west there are seperate ides of justification and sanctification. Sanctification is regarded as a totally seperate thing from salvation. In our understanding it is the sanctification that IS our salvation. It is integral. This is what the Brother of God means when he says that we are saved by works as well as faith. The works are our medicine. As ew take our medicine we are being repaired, healed. We are being returned to our intended state and even elevated above it. We are being made one again - at one ment. It is not that the works earn us anything at all. They don't. It is that God works through those experiences to change us. A greedy man begins to give alms and he becomes charitable. A mean person starts to show kindness and becomes kind. It is in the actual doing of these things that we are fundamentally altered and we are made into something better - something more Christ like.

So... Salvation is not simply a single point of juridical forgiveness - it becomes a relationship and a process of being repaired and recreated. It is a growth in the likeness of Christ. This process is known as Theosis.

[Knowledge3]

So the process of converting to orthodoxy takes several years after first inquiry with an ordained Priest?

[eoe]

So the process of converting to orthodoxy takes several years after first inquiry with an ordained Priest? I attended my first Divine Liturgy on October 2, 2005. My whole family entered Holy Orthodoxy on June 15th, 2006 by Baptism and Chrismation.

It is wildly variable and will depend on the Bishop, your parish priest, your involvement with the parish and possibly the availability of inquirer's classes. Conversions could take longer for some and shorter for others. As the Lutheran faith is sacramental you might have a bit of a head start over someone that was non-sacramental protestant.

[gzt]

It can, but it's usually a matter of several months or about a year. The journey after conversion, however, is life-long.

[Knowledge3]

Do the Orthodox believe in angels and demons?

[Knowledge3]

I attended my first Divine Liturgy on October 2, 2005. My whole family entered Holy Orthodoxy on June 15th, 2006 by Baptism and Chrismation.

It is wildly variable and will depend on the Bishop, your parish priest, your involvement with the parish and possibly the availability of inquirer's classes. Conversions could take longer for some and shorter for others. As the Lutheran faith is sacramental you might have a bit of a head start over someone that was non-sacramental protestant.

That may take me several years of discernment because I am already firm in my Lutheran faith.

But I have expressed an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy.

[kamikat]

Yes, we do. In fact, exorcism is part of our baptismal rite. I'm not sure, but I think it may also be part of confession.

[kamikat]

That may take me several years of discernment because I am already firm in my Lutheran faith.

But I have expressed an interest in Eastern Orthodoxy.

It takes time to change our way of thinking and our views of God and Christ. For some, letting go of their old religion can be a very difficult and lengthy process.

[ClementofRome]

It takes time to change our way of thinking and our views of God and Christ. For some, letting go of their old religion can be a very difficult and lengthy process.

...a la ClementofRome :doh:

[NyssaTheHobbit]

...a la ClementofRome :doh:

And Nyssa the Hobbit....

[Knowledge3]

What is the the relation of the Orthodox Church in relation to the RCC? Concerning the seat of of Peter?

[Knowledge3]

Also, how do the Orthodox understand assurance of salvation?

[Ravenonthecross]

I have a question. Does the EO church believe that Adam and Eve were literal and actual people or the passages in Genesis were actually in fact, not literal but only a metaphorical story/or parable that was divinely inspired by the Lord God?

[Knowledge3]

I think the Orthodox have to get permission from thier Priest to explain their theology to non-orthodox or heterodox persons.

Is that correct?

[kamikat]

I think the Orthodox have to get permission from thier Priest to explain their theology to non-orthodox or heterodox persons.

Is that correct?

As far as I know, this is not true.

[PrincessMommy]

I have a question. Does the EO church believe that Adam and Eve were literal and actual people or the passages in Genesis were actually in fact, not literal but only a metaphorical story/or parable that was divinely inspired by the Lord God?

It might help if you asked this question on a separate thread. I, for one, have a hard time following these threads that keep going and going and going....

[PrincessMommy]

I think the Orthodox have to get permission from thier Priest to explain their theology to non-orthodox or heterodox persons.

Is that correct?

uh, not as far as I know - what makes you think that?

[kamikat]

What is the the relation of the Orthodox Church in relation to the RCC? Concerning the seat of of Peter?

The Orthodox Church is not in communion with the RCC. The Orthodox Church believed that prior to the schism, the Pope was the first among equals, but that he did not have jurisdiction over the Christians not in the Latin church. Each bishop rules over the lay people of his own jurisidction. The Pope had no right to govern the Christians of other bishop.

[kamikat]

Also, how do the Orthodox understand assurance of salvation?

We will be assured of salvation when we see the Lord at our earthly death, not before.

[Knowledge3]

uh, not as far as I know - what makes you think that?

That was just the "impression" I got from the strict rules and orthodoxy.

[Knowledge3]

The Orthodox Church is not in communion with the RCC. The Orthodox Church believed that prior to the schism, the Pope was the first among equals, but that he did not have jurisdiction over the Christians not in the Latin church. Each bishop rules over the lay people of his own jurisidction. The Pope had no right to govern the Christians of other bishop.

Then something serious caused a schism in the universal Church.

I'm not sure what caused the schism but I would like to learn and understand what happened.

JPII a schismatic bishop? It seems not.

[repentant]

Then something serious caused a schism in the universal Church.

I'm not sure what caused the schism but I would like to learn and understand what happened.

JPII a schismatic bishop? It seems not.

Well the issue of Papal supremecy and infalliability. Also the additions of "and the Son" to the Nicene Creed, which could have only been done through Council.

JPII is the succesor of a schismatic Bishop. So in a sense, he is schismantic himself.

[Knowledge3]

Well the issue of Papal supremecy and infalliability. Also the additions of "and the Son" to the Nicene Creed, which could have only been done through Council.

JPII is the succesor of a schismatic Bishop. So in a sense, he is schismantic himself.

If something happened in the schism, why did Rome declare Papal supremacy?

[repentant]

If something happened in the schism, why did Rome declare Papal supremacy?


I don't understand what you're asking. The declaration of Papal Supremecy/imfalliability was part of the reason for the schism.

[Knowledge3]

I don't understand what you're asking. The declaration of Papal Supremecy/imfalliability was part of the reason for the schism.

Why would the Catholic Church declare supremacy if it were going to cause schism? It seems that Christ and His Church would want to stay together.

Something regarding the schism must have made the Roman Pontiff declare supremacy in order to the protect the Church.

Or is there something I am unware of?

[repentant]

Why would the Catholic Church declare supremacy if it were going to cause schism? It seems that Christ and His Church would want to stay together.

Something regarding the schism must have made the Roman Pontiff declare supremacy in order to the protect the Church.

Or is there something I am unware of?

Well who knows why he declared supremecy. The Church is still and has always been. Rome leaving did not break up the Church in that sense. Only in the sense that they fell away, as did many before and many after.

Papal supremecy was one of the chief causes of the schism. Papal supremecy caused the schism not vice versa.

The Church is protected through the Holy Spirit, blood of the martyrs and the communion of the Saints. One man declaring he is the leader protects nothing but his own intentions.

[Knowledge3]

Why did that specific Pope decide to declare supremacy?

What made him make that descision?

[repentant]

Why did that specific Pope decide to declare supremacy?

What made him make that descision?

I have no idea. Who knows what's in the hearts of men but God...you can't ask 1000 years later why a man did what he did, when back then they probably didn't even know. Only thing I can think of is a false interpration of Scripture or heirarchy of the Church. There goes infaliability...

All we know is that since the begining there was no supreme leader, this includes the time of the Apostles. Not Peter, not Andrew, not Matthew, none of them were the leader or supreme over the other's. So who is this one Pope to say he should be?

[Knowledge3]

So who is this one Pope to say he should be?

I have no idea. It is not for me to make any particular judgement on anyone.

That's why I say test the spirits because the spirits are discerning.

[MariaRegina]

I was just sent a joke --

I don't want to offend Catholics, but it does shed light on the Protestant beliefs on Papal Supremacy and Infallibility ....

Proper Use of Democrats

The Pope took a couple of days off to visit the mountains of Alaska for
some sight-seeing. He was cruising along the campground in the
Popemobile when there was a frantic commotion just at the edge of the
woods. A helpless Democrat, wearing sandals, shorts, a "Save the Whales"
hat, and a "To Hell with Bush" T-shirt, was screaming while struggling
frantically, thrashing around trying to free himself from the grasp of a
10-foot Grizzly Bear.

As the Pope watched horrified, a group of Republican loggers came racing
up.

One quickly fired a .44 magnum into the bear's chest... The other two
reached up and pulled the bleeding, semiconscious Democrat from the
bear's grasp. Then using long clubs, the three loggers finished off the
bear and two of them threw it onto the bed of their truck while the other
tenderly placed the injured Democrat in the back seat.

As they prepared to leave, the Pope summoned them to come over. "I give
you my blessing for your brave actions!" he told them. "I heard there
was a bitter hatred between Republican loggers and Democratic
Environmental activists but now I've seen with my own eyes that this is
not true."

As the Pope drove off, one of the loggers asked his buddies, "Who was
that guy?"

"It was the Pope," another replied. "He's in direct contact with heaven
and has access to all wisdom."

"Well," the logger said, "He may have access to all wisdom but he sure
doesn't know anything about bear hunting! By the way, is the bait
holding up, or do we need to go back to Massachusetts and snatch another
one?

[repentant]

Lol

[PrincessMommy]

Why did that specific Pope decide to declare supremacy?

What made him make that descision?

It was not just one specific Pope who did this. There were problems and misunderstanding going back many 100's of years. The Council of Toledo (a regional council) which added in the Filioque clause was in the 500-600's. The actual Great Schism didn't occur until 1054.

Here's (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Great_Schism) a link about it on Orthodowiki. If you have The Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos (Ware) its in there too.

[PrincessMommy]

That was just the "impression" I got from the strict rules and orthodoxy.

Well if you are talking about practice, yes we ask the advice of our priests when working through things like the Fast (what to eat, how to strick/not strick should beginners be, etc.) or how to begin praying and what prayers to start with, etc. Sometimes he will even steer us away from certain books until we are spiritually ready for them. Our priests (or Spiritual Fathers) are there to help us as we "run the race".

But you said we had to ask permission to talk about theology. That one I've never heard of before.

[kamikat]

Why did that specific Pope decide to declare supremacy?

What made him make that descision?

It's wasn't any one single Pope. Over time, several Pope tried to make decisions that would impact the rest of the church. The Eastern bishops would resist. There is record of this as easly as the 3rd century, maybe earlier, I don't remember. The best thing to do is read about early church history. The Pope trying to assert supremacy (it really wasn't declared until much later) wasn't the only thing to cause the schism. I recommend reading The Historical Road to Eastern Orthodoxy by Fr Alexander Schmemman.

[Knowledge3]

Well if you are talking about practice, yes we ask the advice of our priests when working through things like the Fast (what to eat, how to strick/not strick should beginners be, etc.) or how to begin praying and what prayers to start with, etc. Sometimes he will even steer us away from certain books until we are spiritually ready for them. Our priests (or Spiritual Fathers) are there to help us as we "run the race".

But you said we had to ask permission to talk about theology. That one I've never heard of before.




If I am incorrect then I ask questions to get the right perspective on EO.

Does this mean I can discuss Orthodox theology as well? :)

[kamikat]

yes

[Knowledge3]

yes

I can? :clap:

[eoe]

Of course - so long as you are respectful no one here is going to get nasty. You can ask all the questions you like. You just can not debate or teach. Stay away from blatantly doing those and you will be fine.

You have to have about 100,000,001 questions and probably about that many things that you see as either strange or uncomfortable. Pick the biggest 3 and lets get rolling. Remember - you can ask for clarification or more info very easily without debating or teaching. Just think before you post and you will be fine.

[Mytheodos]

Hello Knowledge3! I found this link to.."The Orthodox Church"by Kallistos Ware(The complete book online!!!)
It's a classic on eastern orthodox history.
Here's the link...http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_INDEX.HTM

Mytheodos.

[Mytheodos]

And if you're looking for a great book on Eastern Orthodox Theology..."The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" By Vladimir Lossky" is a classic as well.
Mytheodos.

[Knowledge3]

I already have enough books.

What do the Orthodox consider "the" philosopher of the Orthodox Church?

[Matrona]

What do the Orthodox consider "the" philosopher of the Orthodox Church?

Um, Jesus? :D

[eoe]

I already have enough books.

What do the Orthodox consider "the" philosopher of the Orthodox Church?

If you mean Theologian there are only three people in the EO church that have been given that title. The Apostle John, Saint Gregory the Theologian and saint Symeon the New Theologian.

[Knowledge3]

I like St. Symeon the Theologian :thumbsup:

http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/symeon.htm

If you have a spiritual elder and a family that guides you into orthodoxy from a young age,of course are going to end up in the knowledge of the Church and live a holy life as a saint.

EO is a ethnic-based Christianity. Correct?

[kamikat]

What do you mean by "ethnic based"? Do you mean that one has to be a certain ethnicity to join the church, then, no. Anyone can join. Do you mean in the US, it seems like most ORthodox churches have formed by certain ethnicities, then, yes. That is because Orthodoxy came to the US through immigrants of certain countries. When Orthodoxy goes to other countries, generally it takes on a more local flavor, such as the liturgy celebrated in Japanese or the wonderfully different sounding hymns of the Kenyan Orthodox choirs. In the US, as more and more of the churches are being filled with American converts and US-born and raised children of immigrants, more of the liturgies are using English and in the fellowship events, you will find American food next to the ethnic food.

[Knowledge3]

What do you mean by "ethnic based"?

I'm basically missing out on the rich culture of Orthodoxy,Liturgies and Icons.

[kamikat]

Why are you missing out? I know it's a far drive for you, but if you can handle the drive once in a while, you can participate. You don't have to belong to a specific ethnic group to join the Orthodox Church.

[PrincessMommy]

I'm basically missing out on the rich culture of Orthodoxy,Liturgies and Icons.

This I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean by being Lutheran you are missing out, then yes. Lutherans do not have these things. But if you mean that since you are not Russian or Greek you CANNOT go - that is incorrect. I am none of these either, but I am an Orthodox convert.

Occasionally you'll get an older Orthodox person who will wonder why you are at their church since you're not "Greek" (or Russian). Fortunately, this is getting rarer and rarer.

[Akathist]

If I am incorrect then I ask questions to get the right perspective on EO.

Does this mean I can discuss Orthodox theology as well? :)

You can ask us questions about Theology. Is that what you mean?

Until you are actively attending an EO church and meeting with a Priest to start conversion, I myself would prefer that you not try to teach others what we believe. You might not fully understand something and might give others incorrect information.

Some Priest have restricted time on the internet discussing theology for individuals that get too wrapped up in it. When I was a catechumen, just before I came into the church, my Priest asked me to cut way back on time at CF and instead to focus on the readings he had for me and my prayers and service attendence, etc.

Sometimes during fasting times I do this voluntarily.

[Knowledge3]

Right now, I am completely wrapped up in St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Contra Gentiles with no Priest.

My pastor probably has no clue what where I am spiritually at this point.

I've embarked on a journey where it is just me and God.

[Knowledge3]

You can ask us questions about Theology. Is that what you mean?

Until you are actively attending an EO church and meeting with a Priest to start conversion, I myself would prefer that you not try to teach others what we believe. You might not fully understand something and might give others incorrect information.

Some Priest have restricted time on the internet discussing theology for individuals that get too wrapped up in it. When I was a catechumen, just before I came into the church, my Priest asked me to cut way back on time at CF and instead to focus on the readings he had for me and my prayers and service attendence, etc.

Sometimes during fasting times I do this voluntarily.

Xenia_Rose :) ..:wave:

The last time you moderated me, I was not "teaching" anything but asking questions about orthodoxy.

I do not consider myself a teacher but a follower of Jesus.

[Sunrunner]

What's the Orthodox position on the Seven Churches of Revelation?

[kamikat]

[QUOTE=Knowledge3;28329380]Right now, I am completely wrapped up in St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Contra Gentiles with no Priest.
/QUOTE]

Well, Thomas Aquinas is not an Orthodox saint. It really is best that you find a priest that you can discuss these issues with him and he can recommend proper reading materials for you. Even if the nearest church is far away, I'm sure the priest would be willing to talk on the phone with you.

[Knowledge3]

Right now, I am completely wrapped up in St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Contra Gentiles with no Priest.


Well, Thomas Aquinas is not an Orthodox saint. It really is best that you find a priest that you can discuss these issues with him and he can recommend proper reading materials for you. Even if the nearest church is far away, I'm sure the priest would be willing to talk on the phone with you.

St. Thomas Aquinas is AWESOME.

My Lutheran pastor is pretty good.

It will be at least a year or two of discernment before I consider any conversion.

[Akathist]

What's the Orthodox position on the Seven Churches of Revelation?

I think that is a legitimate question to ask. You might get more replies to this if you start a new thread on this question.

[Knowledge3]

According to the EO, Jesus Christ is the God/Man Incarnate born through the womb of the Pepertual virginity Mary?

And is consubstantial with the Father as the Holy Spirit proceeds from both in the Holy Trinity?

In Christ there is no separation of his nature.

Is this correct?

[Akathist]

I think you started a new thread on the topic of Christology, right?

[Knowledge3]

I think you started a new thread on the topic of Christology, right?

Yes.

[PrincessMommy]

My Lutheran pastor is pretty good.

Are you saying that you're getting answers to questions about Orthodoxy from your Lutheran pastor? Or just general theological (or Lutheran) questions?

It will be at least a year or two of discernment before I consider any conversion.

That is a good idea- it is important to take your time.

[Knowledge3]

Are you saying that you're getting answers to questions about Orthodoxy from your Lutheran pastor?

No.


Or just general theological (or Lutheran) questions?

We discuss the mysterious nature of our relationship with Christ Jesus according to the Holy Scripture we reference during the discussion.


That is a good idea- it is important to take your time.


I am.

[PrincessMommy]

Good, thanks for the clarification.

[Mytheodos]

Quote"
And is consubstantial with the Father as the Holy Spirit proceeds from both in the Holy Trinity?

Roman catholics=Holy spirit proseeds from the father +son as one
Eastern orthodox=Holy spirit proseeds from the Father

[ClementofRome]

St. Thomas Aquinas is AWESOME.

My Lutheran pastor is pretty good.

It will be at least a year or two of discernment before I consider any conversion.


In the end, Aquinas basically rejected even his own voluminous writings as little in comparison to his spiritual experience with God.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Well the issue of Papal supremecy and infalliability. Also the additions of "and the Son" to the Nicene Creed, which could have only been done through Council.

JPII is the succesor of a schismatic Bishop. So in a sense, he is schismantic himself.

Last night I read in a letter by St. Ignatious (sp)--I believe to the Philadelphians--that those who cause schisms and those who follow after them will not inherit the kingdom of God. It baffles me because wouldn't that mean that Luther, Calvin, the Catholics, Protestants, etc. wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God? Isn't that a bit too sweeping a statement to make?

[icxn]

Last night I read in a letter by St. Ignatious (sp)--I believe to the Philadelphians--that those who cause schisms and those who follow after them will not inherit the kingdom of God. It baffles me because wouldn't that mean that Luther, Calvin, the Catholics, Protestants, etc. wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God? Isn't that a bit too sweeping a statement to make?
Sweeping up the church from schisms and heresies is good, and it takes a lot of sweeping [statements] to accomplish.

Look at the intent of the statement not the logical conclusions.

[Knowledge3]

Quote"
And is consubstantial with the Father as the Holy Spirit proceeds from both in the Holy Trinity?

Roman catholics=Holy spirit proseeds from the father +son as one
Eastern orthodox=Holy spirit proseeds from the Father

Nicene Creed.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
>> who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], <<
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Knowledge3]

Last night I read in a letter by St. Ignatious (sp)--I believe to the Philadelphians--that those who cause schisms and those who follow after them will not inherit the kingdom of God. It baffles me because wouldn't that mean that Luther, Calvin, the Catholics, Protestants, etc. wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God? Isn't that a bit too sweeping a statement to make?

Christ Jesus is the only One who has the authority to determine who will inherit the Kingdom.

[Akathist]

Nicene Creed.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
>> who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], <<
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I am not sure what your point is here. You have quoted a version of the Nicene Creed that we do not have. the added [and the Son] is Not in the statement of belief we state in every service, but rather the changed creed that the Catholics that are under the authority of the Pope of Rome use.

Read the 1st and 2nd Ecumenical Councils and you will not see this addition there. The West added this centuries later.

[PrincessMommy]

Last night I read in a letter by St. Ignatious (sp)--I believe to the Philadelphians--that those who cause schisms and those who follow after them will not inherit the kingdom of God. It baffles me because wouldn't that mean that Luther, Calvin, the Catholics, Protestants, etc. wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God? Isn't that a bit too sweeping a statement to make?

I haven't read that particular letter in some time. But we do make a distinction between those who are Orthodox and willfully and knowlingly leave the church. Lutherans and other protestants were never Orthodox to begin with so we would not consider them schismatic. I believe this is what Ignatius is talking about here.

Of course, I could be quite wrong.

[PrincessMommy]

Nicene Creed.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
>> who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], <<
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

And your point is?

[Knowledge3]

I am not sure what your point is here. You have quoted a version of the Nicene Creed that we do not have. the added [and the Son] is Not in the statement of belief we state in every service, but rather the changed creed that the Catholics that are under the authority of the Pope of Rome use.

Read the 1st and 2nd Ecumenical Councils and you will not see this addition there. The West added this centuries later.

There are different versions of the same creed?

What is the EO version?

[Knowledge3]

And your point is?

That ><>.<>< is where the Filioque clause was introduced to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son.

[Akathist]

I haven't read that particular letter in some time. But we do make a distinction between those who are Orthodox and willfully and knowlingly leave the church. Lutherans and other protestants were never Orthodox to begin with so we would not consider them schismatic. I believe this is what Ignatius is talking about here.

Of course, I could be quite wrong.


I also have not read that letter, but I think that is probably what was meant.

If I split from the church to start my own version of Orthodoxy that utilized chrystal balls and seances to call upon the Saints, and others followed me. I am condemning not only myself but those I take out of the church to join me.

However, my mother who is a Methodist and refuses to learn anything about Orthodoxy, is not condemned.

[Knowledge3]

Xenia_Rose, you pray to Saints?

Which ones do you pray to?

[PrincessMommy]

There are different versions of the same creed.

What is the EO version?

Here (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene_Creed) it is.

[eoe]

Xenia_Rose, you pray to Saints?

Which ones do you pray to?
Not addressed to me but I am nosey.

Need to define the word pray in this case. To pray is to make a request. So... -->K3 will you please pray to God for me? That is a prayer to you.

Another important thing to understand is how we view death. Death has been destroyed. The Saints are alive and are in the presence of God.

As for me - I regularly ask the intercession of Sts. Theophan the Recluse, Seraphim of Sarov, John the Baptist, the Theotokos and my own patron Saint John the Wonderworker.

[Knowledge3]

If I ask you to pray for the intercession of a Saint will you please pray for me?

For example, I need special intercession for a mental illness.

Then I will simply just pray for you.

[repentant]

If I ask you to pray for the intercession of a Saint will you please pray for me?

For example, I need special intercession for a mental illness.

Then I will simply just pray for you.

Are you asking for a prayer, or asking another question?

[Knowledge3]

Are you asking for a prayer, or asking another question?

For a prayer to an Orthodox Saint for mental illness.

I want to experience the mystery of intercession.

This is a real prayer request, not a question.

[repentant]

For a prayer to an Orthodox Saint for mental illness.

I want to experience the mystery of intercession.

This is a real prayer request, not a question.


We will pray for your mental illness.

But note..this is something not to be tested, but to be asked in faith. You must also remember that not all prayers are answered because God knows what is right for each person. It's what he wants not what we want. As much as we would love for you to be cured from your illness, sometimes it's not what God wants. Basically what I am saying is that if you are asking for this "experience" of intercession to either confirm or deny your thoughs of Orthodoxy or conversion to it, than it would be better if we didin't pray for you at all. Understand what I am saying?

[Knowledge3]

We will pray for your mental illness.

But note..this is something not to be tested, but to be asked in faith. You must also remember that not all prayers are answered because God knows what is right for each person. It's what he wants not what we want. As much as we would love for you to be cured from your illness, sometimes it's not what God wants. Basically what I am saying is that if you are asking for this "experience" of intercession to either confirm or deny your thoughs of Orthodoxy or conversion to it, than it would be better if we didin't pray for you at all. Understand what I am saying?


Yes.

[repentant]

Yes.

So are you asking for a test, or because you believe?

[Knowledge3]

So are you asking for a test, or because you believe?

No, I was asking for a prayer request because I believe.

[Akathist]

k3,

I ask for the intercession of Theotokos (Mary, Mother of Christ), St. Xenia of Rome (my Patron Saint), St. Xenia of St. Petersburg who is not my Patron but has also the name of St. Xenia of Rome and besides she relates to the grief I have about my husband.

I ask St. Joseph of Serbia to pray for my husband and his family as he is the family Patron Saint of my husband's Family in Serbia. I also ask St. Joseph the Betrothed (the husband of Theotokos) to pray for my husband.

I ask for the prayers of St. Nekatious, St. Nicholas, St. Serphim of Savov, and the help and assistance of my Guardian Angel. Each Sunday I ask St. John Crystostom or St. Basil to pray for me as a part of our after communion prayers.

Lastly, I have a calendar of Saints that are commemorated each day and I try to remember to ask each of them to pray for me and my loved ones daily.

As said above, I do not pray to them as I would pray to God. I ask them to intervene for me and I remember what they teach about the faith and faithful living. I do forget to ask for prayers of certain Saints. Having their icons in my icon corner reminds me.

When I pray, I use the prayers of the Church (for example the morning and evening prayers.)

But there are some extra prayers related to illness or trouble that I have said. An abreviated version of the prayer for times of trouble is in my CFHomepage. You can read it by clicking on the link at the bottom right of any of my posts.

In the EO prayers we use a lot of Psalms. Some of my favorite Psalms in my prayers I also typed out into my CF Home Page.

I do not believe that it is always God's will that we be healed from any illness of trouble. Read the book of Job in the Old Testiment. That book helps me to understand why the troubles in my life have not all disappeared through my prayers. However, prayers are still good and beneficial, especally if they are for the forgiveness and mercy of the Lord. What matters is not so much happiness in life or an easy road, but that we be prepared for our eternal life and seek to become more like Christ in the midst of our troubles.

Please continue to recieve professional care for any illness (physical or mental) while praying.

One other note, we have a sacrement for illness called "Holy Unction". You have to wait until you become chrismated to participate in it. A local monestary offers this service a few times a year and I find it very edifying. That service involves a reading of lots of the miracles described in the New Testament, Prayers led by our Priests and annointing with oil.

[Knowledge3]

*bump*

I am searching


this thread for the parish directory listing


that princessmommy provided for my formal inquiry into the Orthodox Church.

[Knowledge3]

The Orthodox Church is not in communion with the RCC. The Orthodox Church believed that prior to the schism, the Pope was the first among equals, but that he did not have jurisdiction over the Christians not in the Latin church. Each bishop rules over the lay people of his own jurisidction. The Pope had no right to govern the Christians of other bishop.

The schism doesn't exist in my theology because I wasn't born before that schism.

The only reason the schism exists is that if the said Pope or the Bishop maintains his theological groundwork in that "schism."

And neither does Orthodox teaching of St. Cyril's 12 anathemas attach themselves to an apolliniarian school of thought.

Because both Orthodox and Catholic teaching can get all the heresies mixed up.