Question for Orthodox

[drpepper101]

...

[Greg the byzantine]

Right. We will not marry a person who has not baptised in the name of the Trinity. Also either the bride or groom has to be Chrismated Orthodox :)

[Lotar]

Correct. Both must be Baptized and one must be Orthodox. Around here, not all Baptisms are accepted, so it would be limited to those baptized Catholic, OO, or Lutheran.

IIRC mixed marriages (Orthodox w/ other Christian) require special permission.

[eoe]

Around here, not all Baptisms are accepted, so it would be limited to those baptized Catholic, OO, or Lutheran.
I don't think it is that limited is it?

[Lotar]

I don't think it is that limited is it?

Depends on who your bishop is. The basic rule is that if there baptism would be accepted by economy, then they would be allowed.

Some bishops do not accept baptisms by non-Sacramental Protestants.

[Sacrum Silentium]

Depends on who your bishop is. The basic rule is that if there baptism would be accepted by economy, then they would be allowed.

Some bishops do not accept baptisms by non-Sacramental Protestants.

Right. I was baptized in the church of Christ, which puts heavy heavy emphasis on baptism, but Father Mark already told me he's 99% sure the Bishop will say "Baptize him."

[Lotar]

Right. I was baptized in the church of Christ, which puts heavy heavy emphasis on baptism, but Father Mark already told me he's 99% sure the Bishop will say "Baptize him."

When I was chrismated, it was only me (baptized Lutheran) and someone who was baptized Catholic. All the other 20+/- Baptists, Evangelicals, and Reformed were recieved by Baptism.

A couple years ago, when we had a different bishop, everyone who had been given a Trinitatian baptism were recieved by Chrismation (which still left out quite a few of the Calvary Chapel type). So, it all just depends on the bishop.

[Akathist]

Right. I was baptized in the church of Christ, which puts heavy heavy emphasis on baptism, but Father Mark already told me he's 99% sure the Bishop will say "Baptize him."

There was a good chance I would have been brought into the church by Chrismation only. I wrote my Priest a letter asking if I could please receive Baptism. He shared my letter with the Bishop and it was agreed that I could receive Baptism.

For me, I wanted the whole thing! I have absolutely no regrets.

At the same time, I would never say that my mother's baptism was invalid. I just wanted the fullness of the conversion.

[zebu]

There are some cases where all Protestants are baptized actually. I was Episcopalian, yet the bishop said to baptize me.

[rusmeister]

Do I ever tire of saying this?

I was baptized Catholic as an infant, Baptist as a boy, and was coming to Orthodoxy from agnosticism. I was received by Chrismation only.

[Cyprian31]

Actually, even though I've been Orthodox 3 yrs, this issue has weighed on me. I was baptized (Holy Saturday, no less!) even though I'd been "baptized" years before as a baptist. You see, the church I'd gone to as a kid pretty much kinda tricked, or at the very least, pressured, us into getting dunked. We were told it didn't mean anything, just a sort of membership. I'm so glad Father agreed to a real baptism for me; I didn't want to enter Orthodoxy only half way.

God bless.

[silouanathonite]

Also, with all the funky names people are using for the Trinity. You really don't know what people are using within the baptism. This is not to speak bad about other practices of Christianity, I just don't know what they do within their baptisms, but the only one I would be sure of with regards to always using a Trinitarian formula is the RC Church.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Also, with all the funky names people are using for the Trinity. You really don't know what people are using within the baptism. This is not to speak bad about other practices of Christianity, I just don't know what they do within their baptisms, but the only one I would be sure of with regards to always using a Trinitarian formula is the RC Church.

Fortunately, my denomination has just reaffirmed that we're supposed to say "Father, Son & Holy Spirit." But it bugs me that some people have been trying to get that changed. Recently in a PCUSA magazine, there was a debate about names for the Trinity in the letters to the editor. A pastor wrote an article saying that we should continue to use it, and some people got offended. :doh:

Last I knew, Nazarenes (where I grew up) and Lutherans (hubby) still use the "Trinitarian formula," though the meaning and form of baptism varies. :)

[ClementofRome]

"The MAN, the DUDE and the CHICK" just don't do it! egads!

[NyssaTheHobbit]

One reader, apparently disgusted by the debate, jokingly wrote that if we change the names of the Trinity, we might as well say "Daddy-O, JC and the Spook." :)

[ClementofRome]

One reader, apparently disgusted by the debate, jokingly wrote that if we change the names of the Trinity, we might as well say "Daddy-O, JC and the Spook." :)

I don't know if I can officially proclaim this yet, but I will anyway...

IS OUTRAGE! :doh:

[MariaRegina]

I don't know if I can officially proclaim this yet, but I will anyway...

IS OUTRAGE! :doh:

Yes, indeed.

Is Outrage!

[Cyprian31]

Just wait'll Fr. vasily hears of [I]this[I]

[ThePilgrim]

It's worth noting that being received by chrismation isn't only half converting, or not going all the way. In many cases, this is exactly what the canons of the Ecumenical Councils call for: reception by chrismation.

Being "more strict" than the Church teaches is of no more benefit than being too loose. Insisting on receiving an Orthodox baptism if the canons and the bishop suggest reception by chrismation is not a good approach to take.

We should submit to the Church and our bishop in all things, even this.

Also, it's worth noting that there have been several saints who were not received by Baptism into the Church, such as St. Elizabeth the New Martyr, St. Alexandra, and St John the Fool for Christ of Novgorod.

None of this calls into question the status of Orthodoxy as *the Church.* I believe that with all my heart. But it is the Church that gets to bind and loose.

Grace and peace,
John

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I don't know if I can officially proclaim this yet, but I will anyway...

IS OUTRAGE! :doh:

Do note the guy was poking fun at the whole idea of changing the Trinitarian formula, not going along with it. :)

[Akathist]

It's worth noting that being received by chrismation isn't only half converting, or not going all the way. In many cases, this is exactly what the canons of the Ecumenical Councils call for: reception by chrismation.

Being "more strict" than the Church teaches is of no more benefit than being too loose. Insisting on receiving an Orthodox baptism if the canons and the bishop suggest reception by chrismation is not a good approach to take.

We should submit to the Church and our bishop in all things, even this.

Also, it's worth noting that there have been several saints who were not received by Baptism into the Church, such as St. Elizabeth the New Martyr, St. Alexandra, and St John the Fool for Christ of Novgorod.

None of this calls into question the status of Orthodoxy as *the Church.* I believe that with all my heart. But it is the Church that gets to bind and loose.

Grace and peace,
John

Insisting that the Bishop do this or that is NEVER a good idea. And no one said that not receiving baptism means there is less of a conversion.

Politely asking is not however inappropriate at all, thank you very much. :sigh:

[ThePilgrim]

Insisting that the Bishop do this or that is NEVER a good idea. And no one said that not receiving baptism means there is less of a conversion.

Politely asking is not however inappropriate at all, thank you very much. :sigh:

Actually, people did imply that not receiving baptism is less of a conversion. Cyprian said: "I didn't want to enter Orthodoxy only half way." If only being chrismated would be entering Orthodoxy only half way, then that is saying that not receiving baptism is less of a conversion.

Also, you said, "I just wanted the fullness of the conversion." If you were baptised, instead of chrismated, becaue you wanted "the fullness of conversion", that means that only being chrismated is less than the fullness of chrismation.

And you guys aren't the only ones who have implied such things. Because of that, I wanted to counter that idea strongly. The canons of the Second and Seventh Ecumenical Council call for the reception of most heretics by chrismation only and forbid both priests and bishops to rebaptize a person in such cases.

So trying to get one's priest to baptize you, instead of just chrismate you, serves no useful purpose, but rather goes against the canons of Holy Orthodoxy. I can understand why people would want to do it, out of zeal for Orthodoxy as *the* Church, but I think that this form of zeal is mistaken. It is pride for us to try to make the Church be strict where the canons call for mercy and leniency.

I'm sorry if this seems strong, but I wanted to counter clearly the implications that reception by chrismation is "not the fullness of conversion" or "only entering Orthodoxy half way." The vast majority of Orthodoxy people don't talk this way, but there are always a few who imply that those of who were received by chrismation didn't completely become Orthodox.

Submitting to the canons of the Church is not a halfway conversion, as Sts Elizabeth, Alexandra, and John the Fool-for-Christ would tell you. For that matter, even St. Mark of Ephesus (one of my favorites!), a strong opponent of what he called the Latin heresy, and a pillar of Orthodoxy, said that converts were to be received by chrismation, in agreement with the canons of the Holy Ecumenical Councils of Holy Orthodoxy.

Grace and peace,
John

[Matrona]

but the only one I would be sure of with regards to always using a Trinitarian formula is the RC Church.

No you wouldn't. They found out several years ago that a whole bunch of RC people had been baptized in the name of the "Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier" including a bishop. :eek: :sick:

[silouanathonite]

If that is true, I guess I was wrong.

[ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs]

Actually, people did imply that not receiving baptism is less of a conversion. Cyprian said: "I didn't want to enter Orthodoxy only half way." If only being chrismated would be entering Orthodoxy only half way, then that is saying that not receiving baptism is less of a conversion.

Also, you said, "I just wanted the fullness of the conversion." If you were baptised, instead of chrismated, becaue you wanted "the fullness of conversion", that means that only being chrismated is less than the fullness of chrismation.

And you guys aren't the only ones who have implied such things. Because of that, I wanted to counter that idea strongly. The canons of the Second and Seventh Ecumenical Council call for the reception of most heretics by chrismation only and forbid both priests and bishops to rebaptize a person in such cases.

So trying to get one's priest to baptize you, instead of just chrismate you, serves no useful purpose, but rather goes against the canons of Holy Orthodoxy. I can understand why people would want to do it, out of zeal for Orthodoxy as *the* Church, but I think that this form of zeal is mistaken. It is pride for us to try to make the Church be strict where the canons call for mercy and leniency.

I'm sorry if this seems strong, but I wanted to counter clearly the implications that reception by chrismation is "not the fullness of conversion" or "only entering Orthodoxy half way." The vast majority of Orthodoxy people don't talk this way, but there are always a few who imply that those of who were received by chrismation didn't completely become Orthodox.

Submitting to the canons of the Church is not a halfway conversion, as Sts Elizabeth, Alexandra, and John the Fool-for-Christ would tell you. For that matter, even St. Mark of Ephesus (one of my favorites!), a strong opponent of what he called the Latin heresy, and a pillar of Orthodoxy, said that converts were to be received by chrismation, in agreement with the canons of the Holy Ecumenical Councils of Holy Orthodoxy.

Grace and peace,
John

Thank you, John. This is something that I really struggled with when converting. I asked Father to baptize me but at the same time I had reservations about being "re-baptized" and when I expressed those reservations, he pretty much said that it would be wrong to do so. My concern was that I might not be able to commune in some jurisdictions or parishes or at monasteries.

Someone once said on here that you can't commune on Mt. Athos unless you were baptized by an Orthodox priest and this really concerned me as I would love to visit the Holy Mountain someday. When I asked my priest about this, he said that he was recieved by chrismation and that when he visited Mt. Athos, not only was he served communion but he was asked to concelebrate with the heiromonks. That settled the issue for me but it still bothers me when people imply that my conversion wasn't full because I was only recieved by chrismation.

By all means, address this issue strongly, as it is important to some of us. Again, thank you.

[MariaRegina]

Do note the guy was poking fun at the whole idea of changing the Trinitarian formula, not going along with it. :)

We should not make jokes about the Holy Trinity, or anything Holy.

Struck dead?

Not too long ago (perhaps about 6 years ago) there was a president of a Greek Orthodox Parish who was joking that Christ's body was never found. The priest was informed about his jokes as the procession neared the entrance of the church on Good Friday. Before the priest could summon the guy, the man died of a massive heart attack. The paramedics were called and a parishioner who was a cardiologist was at the man's side, but no one could revive him. He had no history of heart problems and was still in his 30's. He had just had a physical which he passed with flying colors. When an autopsy was done, there was no sign of a precipitating event. Somehow, he had instantly died of an unexplained massive coronary. Some medical experts called it "an act of God."

[Lotar]

We should not make jokes about the Holy Trinity, or anything Holy.



He wasn't making a joke about the Holy Trinity, but rather, about those who want to change it.

[MariaRegina]

He wasn't making a joke about the Holy Trinity, but rather, about those who want to change it.

What is the difference? It leads to dissipation.

[Akathist]

Thank you, John. This is something that I really struggled with when converting. I asked Father to baptize me but at the same time I had reservations about being "re-baptized" and when I expressed those reservations, he pretty much said that it would be wrong to do so. My concern was that I might not be able to commune in some jurisdictions or parishes or at monasteries.

Someone once said on here that you can't commune on Mt. Athos unless you were baptized by an Orthodox priest and this really concerned me as I would love to visit the Holy Mountain someday. When I asked my priest about this, he said that he was recieved by chrismation and that when he visited Mt. Athos, not only was he served communion but he was asked to concelebrate with the heiromonks. That settled the issue for me but it still bothers me when people imply that my conversion wasn't full because I was only recieved by chrismation.

By all means, address this issue strongly, as it is important to some of us. Again, thank you.

When I was brought in to the church, I asked to be baptised but that was because since my origional baptism that was trinitarian, I had left Christianity all together, then was baptised in a Non Trinitarian manner.

I asked only because I felt that the Second Non Trinitarian one was invalid and because I had fallen away too much as a young adult. However, of the 11 people brought in over those two days in our parish, only one other was Baptised. The rest were Chrismated. These are my dearest friends. I am closer to them then my own family. They are all better Orthodox then I am I can tell you!

My request did not in any way imply that they were not fully Orthodox. Nevertheless, I don't think it was wrong for me to ask for it and I did not like the other member to imply that I did something wrong when my Priest and Bishop both said there was nothing wrong with asking. If they had said "no" I would have been Chrismated and that would have been fine too.

I am just glad to know that the last baptism I had was in the name of each member of the Trinity and not in a church that also taught some other things that are very very questionable.

[MariaRegina]

What happens when a baptized, chrismated Orthodox Christian denies the faith by becoming Jewish, Muslim, Hindi or Buddhist?

I was told that if a baptized, chrismated Orthodox Christian denied Christ, and if they didn't die a martyr's death when they publicly acknowledged their error, then they would then be received back into the Church through Chrismation.

Would they ever be rebaptized?

[ThePilgrim]

What happens when a baptized, chrismated Orthodox Christian denies the faith by becoming Jewish, Muslim, Hindi or Buddhist?

I was told that if a baptized, chrismated Orthodox Christian denied Christ, and if they didn't die a martyr's death when they publicly acknowledged their error, then they would then be received back into the Church through Chrismation.

Would they ever be rebaptized?
According to the Canons of the Church, no. They would never be rebaptized. Depending on the circumstances, they might be annointed with chrism, or might be received through repentance.

Grace and peace,
John