Questions About Denominations

[Calminaion]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?

[willard3]

1. Roman Catholic; I was raised that way (yes, I'm a 'cradle Catholic'), but it makes sense to me now.

2. It is important that we be unified. Now while I think it would be nice to be united under the same denomination, I also know it won't happen. What would make me happy is to just stop the rabid anti-Catholicism and anti-Protestantism that goes around frequently. Different people have different beliefs and (usually) reason to back them up. If (hypothetically) the Muslims decided to wage a worldwide holy war against Christianity, then we should rise up as believers in Christ, not as Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc.

[leothelioness]

1) Baptist. I was brought up Baptist and our theological views tend to be very in line with the teachings in the Scriptures.

2) Same thing willard3 said. Particularly the last sentence.

[cajunhillbilly]

I am an Epicopalian, but currenytly attend a Baptist church, since I work on Sunday and this church has Saturday eveing services. I agree with Willard3. By the way my real name is Willard as well.

[LamorakDesGalis]

1. I am a member of an independent Bible church. Its not part of any specific denomination. Prior to that I was a member of the churches of Christ. We changed from the CoC to the Bible church because 1) it was closer to our house, 2) the nursery was much more accomodating for our infant son, and 3) so I could attend a church more in line with my beliefs.

2. I think it is very important for Christians to see the bond of unity we have with other Christians in the different denominations. Like Willard3 said, there are a lot of Christians who major in "anti"this and "anti"that and can't see the forest - or the trees for that matter. Through the years I have enjoyed visiting different denominations and churches, when I can, and enjoy the unity and diversity we have in Christ.

Speaking of which, in at least three epistles Paul spoke first of 1) the unity of the church (body of Christ), followed by 2) the diversity within the church, then with a message on 3) maturity.

Unity
1 Cor 12:1-13
Romans 12:1-5
Ephesians 4:1-6

Diversity
1 Cor 12:14-31
Rom 12:6-8
Eph 4:7-12

Maturity
1 Cor 13:1-13
Rom 12:9-21
Eph 4:13-16


LDG

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?


In MY case, this isn't an easy question to answer. In my denomination, congregations are members of the denomination (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod), individuals aren't. But in a popular sense, one would be associated with the denomination when one officially joined a congregation associated with it - which I haven't OFFICALLY done. I attend and participate in the congregation of the LCMS, I consider myself LCMS, the congregation considers me LCMS, but I've never OFFICIALLY joined the congregation.


I participate with the congregation because
1. I largely agree with the teachings.
2. The Great Commandment is evident
3. The Great Commission is dominant
4. The worship and sermon are helpful


I have moved away from the denominations of my youth (a Protestant one where my father is a parish pastor, and a Catholic one where I was very active for about 5 years) and now consider myself solidly Lutheran.



2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?


As I confess in the Creed, I believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church" "the communion of saints." The church of Christ is one - always has been, still is, always will be. There is one faith, one Lord, one baptism. None of this has anything to do with institutions - with the millions of congregations and thousands of denominational associations of them.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah



.

[ctay]

Lutheran and was born and brought up in the Lutheran church


Agree with williard3.....

[RaddMadd]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?

1. no. would that be called non-denominational? i don't know. lol sounds like another denomination to me.

2. i think it separates the church, i think that we should love each other has brethren and at least unite on how salvation works rather then debate and confuse those who want to be saved.

-or else i probably wouldn't see anything wrong with them.

<><

[BereanTodd]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

I do not identify myself denominationally at all, but I am a member of a southern baptist church and most of my Christian life (I was raised an atheist) has been in the southern baptist church.

Why do I tend to stay with it? Well although I disagree with some of the legalistic tendancies in relation to drinking, charismatic gifts and the like, I tend to line up with them in most areas of doctrine. I also respect that although I don't always see eye-to-eye with the IMB (the missions arm of the southern baptist denomination), they are the largest missions orginazation in the world basically, and they do a great ammount of work in spreading the Gospel around the globe.

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?

I believe that though on some levels the divisions upset God, that all things work together for good to those called according to His purposes. I believe that there are churches of all flavors because that is the best way to reach the most people. There are people my S. Baptist church reaches who wouldn't be affected by the methodist church. There are people the methodists reach who wouldn't be reached by the pentacostal church down the road ... so on and so forth.

I do believe that as long as we can agree on the major issues (salvation by grace alone through faith alone, the trinity, the deity of Christ, etc, etc ...) that we should be working together one with another for the cause of the spread of the Gospel. I am very proud to be a part of a church that actively does this, praying for and ministering to our community alongside a number of churches of all sorts of denominations.

[plmarquette]

was raised roman catholic
presently am a member of a word of faith church

wanted to know the bible as protestants know it
wanted to see charisms of the holy spirit
wanted to know how to fight back with the word of god
wantd to do some thing with my faith , besides going to church on sunday
saw a second chance to minister the word ...
presently minister 2 weeks a month in the jail and send a weekly bible study to 50+ people

[MichaelArchangelos]

I am a catechumen in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. The disciples of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch, and it is one of the oldest churches in existence.

The Church consists of all those who profess the Orthodox faith and are joined to the Church by Holy Baptism. We know who is Christian within the Church, but we don't know who is Christian outside of the Church. We accept Roman Catholics, Anglicans and Presbyterians as Christian, but they are not joined to Christ's mystical body.

[Dust and Ashes]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?

1. No. The Orthodox Church is predenominational. I spent 12 years as a Protestant searching for a denomination that could answer all my questions and provide me with a spirituality that could bring me to a closer relationship with Christ and satisfy the longing in my soul. Praise God, I found the Orthodox Church here on CF and it has made all the difference in the world in my life.

2. I believe the Church is of one faith and undivided, though there are some problems with unity. (That's what happens when you get people involved in something God made :D )

Denominations are groups that developed outside the Church. They developed based on the subjective interpretations of Scripture of various individuals who were not satisfied with the doctrines they were being taught so they determined to create a church that taught the truth (according to the individual's interpretation). This resulted in the multitude of churches teaching the multitude of "truths" all over the world.

That said, I do not make any statements or judgments on the salvation of people outside the visible Church. Judgment is God's prerogative, not mine. I know many Catholics and Protestants who are much better Christians than I will ever be so who am I to judge them.

To paraphrase Elder Cleopa when he was asked about those Christians outside the Church, "They have a Saviour who desires their salvation and will see to them according to His will. You concern yourself with your own salvation."

[CaliforniaJosiah]

My perspective...



1. No. The Orthodox Church is predenominational.


I respectfully disagree.


There are two (and only two) options for a congregation - it's denominational or it's nondenominational. It either DOES have some association with other congregations (and thus is denominational) or it is completely autonomous and has no formal association with any other congregation - in which case it's nondenomination. There is no "inbetween" or "pre" or "post" here.


A "Denomination" is a formal association of congregations - usually under a common name (such as Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, etc.) in which there is usually a commonly embraced corpus of beliefs and perhaps customs/traditions, and some commonly accepted leadership. They so associate usually for reasons of edification, cooperation, support and accountability.





I spent 12 years as a Protestant searching for a denomination that could answer all my questions


LOL. I have been searching for one that does not. One that will embrace the mysteries God left rather than replacing God's authority with itself, one with the humility to be UNDER God rather than above Him, one that would be willing to say "I don't know." One that thinks EVERYTHING of God, and not so much of it's own thinking, one that lifts up God rather than itself. Our journeys seem to have taken us in opposite directions...




2. I believe the Church is of one faith and undivided, though there are some problems with unity. (That's what happens when you get people involved in something God made :D )


IMHO, this has never existed. And still doesn't. But I believe that we are brothers in Christ because GOD has made us so, not because our brains have made it so or because we are legally associated with the same political, institutional entity. Unity, to me, is not a function of institutions or articulations - it's a matter of heart, soul and life. But we'll passionately disagree on that.




Denominations are groups that developed outside the Church.

I respectfully disagree...


IMHO, Christians cannot develop outside of themselves. Nearly always, it's CHRISTIANS who form Christian congregations and denominations - rarely would a Jew or Buddhist form such. Thus, they develop from within the church, not outside of it.

I see NOTHING in God's Holy Scriptures that forbid Christians from associated with each other - and even from creating institutions from these associations. I see nothing that requires it, but nothing that forbids it either. We see several examples of congregations in the NT itself - and such is not condemned. No Christian (or group thereof) was condemned for starting the congregation. I don't agree that such is wrong. And if congregations want to bond together into a denomination for the same purposes that Christians bonded together in a congregation - I see nothing wrong with that. There's nothing in Scripture that forbids Christian community, fellowship, cooperation or accountability, not that I see in God's Holy Word.




They developed based on the subjective interpretations of Scripture of various individuals who were not satisfied with the doctrines they were being taught so they determined to create a church that taught the truth (according to the individual's interpretation). This resulted in the multitude of churches teaching the multitude of "truths" all over the world.


I cannot speak for the EO, but from experience, I know that NO denomination stressed individual and private interpretation more firmly or radically than does the RCC (although the LDS is pretty close!). It self-claims that it ALONE is the SOLE interpreter of Scripture and anything else it choose to regard as authoritative, that it ALONE is the SOLE arbiter for all matters related to itself, faith, practices and anything else it alone chooses to arbitrate, and PREdeclares that all such is infallible and therefore unaccountable. I know of no other denomination with such an extreme form of individual interpretation. The teachings of the RCC provide the "lens" by which God's Holy Word is to be "read" so that ANY interpretation (no matter how valid and otherwise good) that does not confirm and support the teachings of the RCC MUST, therefore, for that reason, be wrong and must be rejected. Thus, they use their extreme, radical form of individual interpretation not only for hermeneutics but also for norming - so that it arbitrates itself based on the norm of itself. I'm not sure in what way the EO is different in this regard.


You must be aware of 1054. And the several DOGMAS on which the CC and EO and OO do not agree.


IMHO, only Christ can "create" the church - and He did. No one - not even the Pope or the EO or Martin Luther - can destroy or divide it. The Pope's propensity to excommunicate may have resulted in the EO and Protestantism, it may have divided the Catholic denomination, but it did not divide the church. IMHO, there IS one holy catholic and apostolic church, which is why Protestants can confess that without their fingers crossed, LOL. We don't say that but mean, "well, the church used to be one until the Pope split it" or "the church should be one" or "the church will be one in heaven" or "my single denomination is one denomination." Nope, we mean that it's one. Not even the Pope - in spite of any self claims to the contrary - can change that.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

[Dust and Ashes]

My perspective...
I respectfully disagree.


Thank you for doing it respectfully, that is something all too uncommon here. :thumbsup:

As far as all the other stuff, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree since I'm not into the whole spending a lot of time addressing point by point arguments when, it's most likely not going to convince anyone of anything anyway. I've read enough of your posts in GT to know pretty much where you stand so it would be a waste of both our time.

I know this is the formal debate forum and I probably shouldn't even be posting here since I hate debating. I just stumbled in and saw a couple of threads I wanted to respond to.

Forgive me.

[Dust and Ashes]

LOL. I have been searching for one that does not. One that will embrace the mysteries God left rather than replacing God's authority with itself, one with the humility to be UNDER God rather than above Him, one that would be willing to say "I don't know." One that thinks EVERYTHING of God, and not so much of it's own thinking, one that lifts up God rather than itself. Our journeys seem to have taken us in opposite directions...


Well, actually, I never said all the answers were defined to the last point. That's one of the many things I love about Orthodoxy, the willingness to accept what has been revealed and study it and the equal willingness to accept the mystery of what hasn't been revealed.

I never meant to imply that the Orthodox Church claims to know everything. One of my dear friends said that the reason he became Orthodox was because there were some questions for which the answer was, "We don't know, it's a mystery."

[minasoliman]

Well, I for one believe that being "non-denominational" is a denomination in and of itself.

It's like the anti-religion person who says "I have no religion; all religions are man-made, I only believe in God," and yet forgets that religion means "a system of what you believe", and thus his religion is pluralism.

God bless.

Mina

[cajunhillbilly]

I have always considered non-denominational churches to be a contradiction. First off, they all tend to be evangelical and Protestant in theology. They often work together and that in and of itself is the beginnings of forming a denomination. Plus many are members of "associations" of local churches, and whats that if not a loosely based denomination?

[cajunhillbilly]

I like what forgivensinner said about how denominations are a natural outgrowth of Christians associating with each other and that there is nothing in Scripture which forbids it, as long as we recognize that Chist's church is ONE. Very good observations.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Well, actually, I never said all the answers were defined to the last point. That's one of the many things I love about Orthodoxy, the willingness to accept what has been revealed and study it and the equal willingness to accept the mystery of what hasn't been revealed.

I never meant to imply that the Orthodox Church claims to know everything. One of my dear friends said that the reason he became Orthodox was because there were some questions for which the answer was, "We don't know, it's a mystery."


I largely agree....

Yes, I sense this spirit of humility exists in Orthodoxy, too.


- Josiah

[Argent]

I feel "in communion" with all Christians and denominations that agree on the fundamentals of the the faith. Any personal or denominational aspects beyond the fundamentals of the faith are between the individual/denomination and God. God places us, if we are willing, where He wants us, to use us to further His kingdom. Unfortunately, there are a number of people who call themselves Christian, and a few denominations these days, who have discarded the fundamentals of the faith. The rules of CF prevent me from saying they aren't Christian. So, I won't. But they know who they are, and so should we.

[minasoliman]

I feel "in communion" with all Christians and denominations that agree on the fundamentals of the the faith. Any personal or denominational aspects beyond the fundamentals of the faith are between the individual/denomination and God. God places us, if we are willing, where He wants us, to use us to further His kingdom. Unfortunately, there are a number of people who call themselves Christian, and a few denominations these days, who have discarded the fundamentals of the faith. The rules of CF prevent me from saying they aren't Christian. So, I won't. But they know who they are, and so should we.
Perhaps, then I'm curious to know your view.

I know that CF says that anyone who doesn't follow the tenets of the Nicene Creed should not be Christian. What do you think makes a Christian?

God bless.

Mina

[Kepha]

Here is how I see it. A Christian was always one who belonged to the Church and held fast to Her beliefs such as the Divinity of Christ.

Since the reformation happened, the definition has diluted to pretty much meaning anyone who follows the teaching's of Christ whether they believe He was God or not. That is how an outsider would see it anyways.

Personally for me now, it is anyone who believes Christ is God and constantly tries to be obedient to His Graces.

[Naomi4Christ]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?
I am Anglican, because that is my local church.

Denominations are man-made divisions, but some are less dodgy than others.

[Confess]

I am a Lutheran, my congregation's pastor is apart of ELDONA

I believe that the invisible church is united in doctrine. This means that within all denominations, there are true Christians that reside.

I recognize that within the visible church (the distinct denominations) that there is no unity in doctrine.

[minasoliman]

I am a Lutheran, my congregation's pastor is apart of ELDONA

I believe that the invisible church is united in doctrine. This means that within all denominations, there are true Christians that reside.

I recognize that within the visible church (the distinct denominations) that there is no unity in doctrine.
That's great and all, but such a belief would lead me to despair on what correct doctrine might be. To which if such is the only belief all these churches believe, I tend to find myself in despair and disbelief.

Truly then, the gates of Hades have prevailed against the Church :(

No longer would I be a believer of Christianity if such is espoused. I find such inconsistency in a belief.

God bless.

[Prodigal7]

Interesting thread. Nice tone as well. People seem mostly cordial and no belief bashing going on.

I wonder what percentage of people are born into their denomination??

I attend a Protestant based church but am also a Catholic and Orthodox sympathizer. I listen to the Catholic radio station sometimes and also lurk in the TAW section of CF. I have several icons hanging on my wall. The Catholic view on abortion I totally agree with. The hedonism of our modern society, which is an enemy of all churches, runs hand in hand with free sex, birth control, abortion, and anything goes morality. I listened to the Popes Christmas talk and it was profound.

The pastor at my protestant church rocks though and the church has helped me turn my life around. The success of the United States and the protestant work ethic are some of the aspects of protestantism I like. My church is over flowing with young people. It's vibrant and alive.

My mom was Catholic. My step mom was also Catholic. My father was Orthodox. none of them practiced it worth a hoot - so I became a spiritual wanderer.

I came close to abandoning Christianity completely. For so many years it wasn't about denominations at all for me. I had fallen completely off the tree. When you're not a Christian at all the denominational squabble seems ridiculous. I think satan uses the divisions in the church to his own advantage.

I was baptized Orthodox. I sometimes miss that faith and may return to it one day. I feel torn loyalties between the church I am attending now and the church of my birth.

I like the Protestant emphasis on scripture.
I respect the apostolic succession of the Orthodox and Catholics.
I like the meditative prayer of the Catholics and Orthodox.

I am undecided on the idea of praying to saints or Mary. I respect Mary probably more than the average Protestant. She was the mother of Christ.

I always come back to this idea of "Who am I to judge denominations??" I'm just an ordinary layman.

Also, if one denomination was head and shoulders above the others - wouldn't we all know it??

The Nicene Creed is the one thing I totally agree on. I respect the elder statemen of all three of the major Christian branches. Who am I to argue with these lifelong theologians??

I pray alot, go to church, read my bible, and if I am on the wrong path hope God gives me a sign. I trust god more than man and also believe god reveals himself to those who earnestly seek him.

I love CF. Very cool to discuss these things in a civilized manner. I'm out.

[crawfish]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?

1. I am a member of the "church of Christ", a non-denominational denomination. :) Although I have either rejected some of their common tenets, I still fellowship with them because it is my family's history and I still believe they are a strong, positive part of God's kingdom. I would consider attending a non-denominational church should I have to leave my current place of membership.

2. We are all "Christians", and God's grace should be sufficient for us in unity. I think the division makes God sad, but it doesn't necessarily affect our personal salvation.

[Confess]

That's great and all, but such a belief would lead me to despair on what correct doctrine might be. To which if such is the only belief all these churches believe, I tend to find myself in despair and disbelief.

Truly then, the gates of Hades have prevailed against the Church :(

No longer would I be a believer of Christianity if such is espoused. I find such inconsistency in a belief.

God bless.
I don't see why. There are many within other denominations who refuse to leave their errant church yet believe in the Truth of God's Word.

[minasoliman]

I don't see why. There are many within other denominations who refuse to leave their errant church yet believe in the Truth of God's Word.
I'm afraid you won't understand what I mean without feeling some sort of offense. Every time I say why, people will answer to me as if I'm some sort of bigot, which I'm not.

I believe just as much as there is one true religion among religions, I must also be consistent in believing there's one true Church among denominations that holds what we call the "fullness of the faith." This fullness of the faith is not just your beliefs in the Trinity, in Christ, or in salvation, but also in sacramental practices, the continuation of succession of Church history and apostolicity, and the consistency in keeping the True Faith without a failure at anytime in history, which is the faith that I have outlined earlier to you. I understand some here define the faith as a core set of beliefs of God, Christ, and salvation, but there is also the other side of faith that the Orthodox Church believes in where you include sacramental theology, liturgical theology, a Eucharistic theology, and theology of priesthood and bishops, etc. We maintain the keeping of something called the "Holy Traditions."

Now, granted these things many of you will disagree with. We are not here to debate these other things. The debate here is about the question of denominations. If a denomination defines a set core of beliefs to be included as part of the faith, and not all denominations have these set core beliefs we include, including the Holy Tradition, then we are not of one faith, and that is why I find myself compelled to hold belief to "One True Church." Does that mean I condemn all of you outside the Church to hell? No! In fact, I'm only looking for the Hospital (Church) that contains all the tools there are for my spirituality (faith which includes dogma, sacraments, and liturgy). This is for my benefit. I would share it with all of you, but usually receiving rotten tomatoes thrown at me afterwards.

So, I have to disagree with you that we all do not believe in the same "Truth of God's Word" because I am part of a Church that believes this Truth includes the keeping of that Holy Tradition. You will disagree with me, and that's fine, but what doesn't make sense is that you include a Church as part of a "whole Christian Church" that's exclusive. It's like including Christianity, which is an exclusive religion, into a whole set of pluralistic beliefs that includes all religions of the world as paths to "the truth."

In our Church, we always quote from Scripture Christ's blessing to Peter after that great confession, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God," to which Christ replied about the Church, "Upon this rock, you will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." This rock is the rock of faith, and this faith as I have defined for you is what the Orthodox Church believes includes Holy Tradition. If all denominations disagree with one another, especially on what includes "faith," and I can't find that "true faith," then the gates of Hades has indeed prevailed against the Church, unless there is a Church that is indeed exclusively displayed as the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church." This I find with with peace in the Orthodox Church.

God bless.

[Zecryphon]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?
"1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?"

I am a member of the Lutheran denomination. I am a member of this denomination because in my opinion it teaches the scriptures more accurately than any other church I've been a part of. I've been a member of the Evangelical Free church and the non-denom church in the past.

"2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?"

I believe the unity of the church is not affected by various denominations as long as the denominations in question are in agreement about the essentials of the faith. The trinity, the virgin birth, salvation, etc. The non-essentials I think we can agree to disagree on, but they don't have to be as divisive as some people would like them to be.

[SharonL]

I have fought the battle of denominations for many, many years - raised Prostentant - very strict - married Catholic - Discovered the Spirit Filled Walk for the past 15 or so years.

As I was trying to find my way through all this I became very discouraged and almost lost my closeness to God.

I would go to the Catholic church with my husband and sit with tears running down my face - my husband would go to church with me and I could see things were not sitting right with him - I've been married 48 years - we have a good marriage, but this has always been a thorn in our sides.

One day as I was trying to determine what to do - this is what the Lord gave me.

THE ANGELS DILEMMA
http://diamondsfromheaven.com/angelfly.gif http://diamondsfromheaven.com/angelfly.gif
As Jesus hung on the cross with his Blood falling to the ground drop by drop.
The angels stood back, legions of them, unable to lift a hand to stop.

They gathered His blood in a golden Chalice.
Shed by the soldiers inhumane malice.

Jesus carried His own Blood into Heaven's Throne.
Nothing could hold Him back, not even the heavy stone.

His Blood flows pure from the fountain on Heaven's floor.
Calling all to come forth through this narrow door.

Through the ages the enemy has found ways to present the lie.
Live by these rules or you will surely die.

Slowly the Blood has been separated drop by drop.
This drop will cover only the Baptists - this drop will cover only
the Catholics, this one for the Jews and on and on, never to stop.

The division of Jesus' precious Blood is now so great,
God's children walk in an unbelievable confused state.

Jesus reaches out for the golden Chalice filled with His precious Blood.
The Chalice is empty and the angels tears begin to flood.

My Precious Savior the angels gently say.
The Blood will not mix, the drops are separated and there is no way.

Jesus answered my precious Blood was shed for ALL.
I did not die so that man could build up walls.

Jesus' Blood flows whole - not drop by drop as we mortals have dictated and claim.
Our precious Savior only tells us He stands at the door and knocks, His precious Blood will cleanse us without one stain.

Jesus stands with His arms open wide, big enough to hold us all side by side.
How can His Blood cover us all if we continually choose to divide.

Each denomination claims the Blood is only for their belief.
If we could all be in one accord, Jesus would certainly sigh a sigh of relief.

Each one prays in their own way, sending their prayers to Heaven as a shaft of light.
If all the people would pray in one accord, we could light up the world and oh what a sight.

Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life."
He did not intend for us to live with all this strife.

He gave us one great command and that is to love one another.
That means to really love one another as if we were each the others brother.
~~ Sharon Lambkin ~~ http://diamondsfromheaven.com/Sharon.gif

[Prodigal7]

I'm afraid you won't understand what I mean without feeling some sort of offense. Every time I say why, people will answer to me as if I'm some sort of bigot, which I'm not.

I believe just as much as there is one true religion among religions, I must also be consistent in believing there's one true Church among denominations that holds what we call the "fullness of the faith." This fullness of the faith is not just your beliefs in the Trinity, in Christ, or in salvation, but also in sacramental practices, the continuation of succession of Church history and apostolicity, and the consistency in keeping the True Faith without a failure at anytime in history, which is the faith that I have outlined earlier to you. I understand some here define the faith as a core set of beliefs of God, Christ, and salvation, but there is also the other side of faith that the Orthodox Church believes in where you include sacramental theology, liturgical theology, a Eucharistic theology, and theology of priesthood and bishops, etc. We maintain the keeping of something called the "Holy Traditions."

Now, granted these things many of you will disagree with. We are not here to debate these other things. The debate here is about the question of denominations. If a denomination defines a set core of beliefs to be included as part of the faith, and not all denominations have these set core beliefs we include, including the Holy Tradition, then we are not of one faith, and that is why I find myself compelled to hold belief to "One True Church." Does that mean I condemn all of you outside the Church to hell? No! In fact, I'm only looking for the Hospital (Church) that contains all the tools there are for my spirituality (faith which includes dogma, sacraments, and liturgy). This is for my benefit. I would share it with all of you, but usually receiving rotten tomatoes thrown at me afterwards.

So, I have to disagree with you that we all do not believe in the same "Truth of God's Word" because I am part of a Church that believes this Truth includes the keeping of that Holy Tradition. You will disagree with me, and that's fine, but what doesn't make sense is that you include a Church as part of a "whole Christian Church" that's exclusive. It's like including Christianity, which is an exclusive religion, into a whole set of pluralistic beliefs that includes all religions of the world as paths to "the truth."

In our Church, we always quote from Scripture Christ's blessing to Peter after that great confession, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God," to which Christ replied about the Church, "Upon this rock, you will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." This rock is the rock of faith, and this faith as I have defined for you is what the Orthodox Church believes includes Holy Tradition. If all denominations disagree with one another, especially on what includes "faith," and I can't find that "true faith," then the gates of Hades has indeed prevailed against the Church, unless there is a Church that is indeed exclusively displayed as the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church." This I find with with peace in the Orthodox Church.

God bless.
Great post. I appreciate your sincerity and passion.

The Orthodox act like they have a monopoly of Apostolic Succession but other branches can also trace their leaders back to Peter.

I'm not bashing Orthodoxy because I was born Orthodox - if Orthodoxy is precisely the correct faith how do you explain the myriad of problems in most predominantly Orthodox nations - starting with Russia?? The Protestant work ethic has a lot going for it. Surely they can't be wrong on all counts.

Tradition is important and a lot of us respect it. I know I do. Sometimes though the rigid adherence to tradition doesn't seem to jive with a Christ who walked into the Temple and went flipping over tables. Also, Paul's dissertation of us "Gentiles" being branches grafted into the vine seems to warn against smugness and complacency. Can any of us be complacent this side of the grave?

If the Jews could be cut off from the vine then certainly we "Gentile Christians" could....

I think what turns a lot of people off from Christianity is the "lock in clause" that "we got it right and you got it wrong" of various denominations.

I look at the mess in modern Russia, the fall of turkey to Islam, and various other Orthodox achillies heals and have a hard time saying they got the lock box on truth (though I still love and respect them).

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the other churches.

Peace

[minasoliman]

Dear Prodigal7,

Thank you for a thoughtful post. The questions you address aren't easy, and can easily cloud one's perceptions.

The Orthodox act like they have a monopoly of Apostolic Succession but other branches can also trace their leaders back to Peter.The more and more I study, the more I realize that the Orthodox Church does not want to claim a monopoly. I am sometimes afraid to say it, but it might be words of wisdom coming from a contemporary Orthodox bishop who said "We know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't."

I'm not bashing Orthodoxy because I was born Orthodox - if Orthodoxy is precisely the correct faith how do you explain the myriad of problems in most predominantly Orthodox nations - starting with Russia?? The Protestant work ethic has a lot going for it. Surely they can't be wrong on all counts.I'm not sure the answer to this, nor do I even feel I can fully comprehend this question. I personally am Egyptian. But from what I understand about the country of Russia, during Communist times, Russian Orthodox "kept the faith" in the midst of persecutions by Communist atheists. This doesn't sound like anything different from Christian history, which stood against Roman pagan persecutions, and present-day Islamic persecutions fall in this category. In fact, it is probably through persecutions where the Church can be at her best. I'm not saying that persecutions are good or necessary, but historical example seems to me that when the Church had a government and was lax, it would not be at her spiritual peak unfortunately. Maybe the problems in Russia make the Russian Orthodox Church stronger than ever.

I'm not sure what the "Protestant work ethic" might mean.

Tradition is important and a lot of us respect it. I know I do. Sometimes though the rigid adherence to tradition doesn't seem to jive with a Christ who walked into the Temple and went flipping over tables.Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand Christ's flipping over tables to be a reaction against the distortion of tradition or man's own tradition, not the rigid adherence of tradition of God via the Mosaic Law. Even the tradition of stoning a guilty person, Christ never rejected, but rather "fulfilled." When the Pharisee's tried to deceive Christ in "seeking His guidance" on the stoning of a known harlot, He never gave an answer that despised tradition, neither did He give an answer that made Him look like a fool in the midst of their unjust and deceptive use of the Mosaic Law. Therefore, Christ gave that perfect answer both to fulfill the Law and to destroy injustice and unrighteousness among the hypocritical Pharisees. "He who is without sin may cast the first stone."

Likewise, I think it's a big misunderstanding on the part of Protestants that Orthodox condemn all those outside her Church to Hell. We are careful not to "stone others," but to judge our own selves. If I believe in "One True Faith" and "One True Catholic Church," then I am obliged to follow in that Orthodox path. Sure, you will find the overzealous Orthodox who has nothing but stones to throw at non-Orthodox people, but let's not judge a whole Church over a few or many Orthodox Christians.

Also, Paul's dissertation of us "Gentiles" being branches grafted into the vine seems to warn against smugness and complacency. Can any of us be complacent this side of the grave?

If the Jews could be cut off from the vine then certainly we "Gentile Christians" could....This is all the more reason why we as Orthodox adhere to what we consider the One faith that knows no language, no boundaries, and no culture. As a Coptic Orthodox who is proud of his Coptic heritage and ancestry, I teach my students in Sunday School that they are Orthodox Christians first and foremost and Coptic second. I take very seriously the words of Christ "to hate mother, father, brother, sister, wife, children, and my own life" in order to love Christ my God and preserve the rock of faith He has given to His Apostles.

I think what turns a lot of people off from Christianity is the "lock in clause" that "we got it right and you got it wrong" of various denominations.C.S. Lewis himself recognized that despite all the dissensions, there remained a true denomination within Christianity, let alone among religions. He chose among all churches the Anglican Church, which at the time was Orthodox in her beliefs and was very close to a union with the Orthodox Church. There was inter-communion at one point in history. C.S. Lewis understood the value of consistency, and that is all what needs to be realized. Consistency has it that one must maintain something true. Let alone Christianity, the dissensions among religions turn people to atheists. This does not mean that there exists among religions one true religion.

I understand it's a big turn-off and actually quite offensive. I am not claiming any self-righteousness like "You guys are all wrong, I got it right," but rather, in a true humble spirit, "I seek the truth for my own spiritual benefit."

I look at the mess in modern Russia, the fall of turkey to Islam, and various other Orthodox achillies heals and have a hard time saying they got the lock box on truth (though I still love and respect them).I think any religion's achillies heal would be to involve itself with politics and the government. But the fall of a government is not necessarily the failure of the Orthodox faith, but failure of the people or the government itself.

If there are corrupt people within the Church, that doesn't mean the faith is false. The strength of a Church relies on both faith and works. Faith without works and works without faith makes a certain Church fruitless, which might be the other reasons you see failure. One can recognize the "Good Samaritan," with Christ teaching us that we should learn even from those not of the right faith, like the great Gandhi or the wise Socrates. But insofar as truth is concerned, there are people people who seek the Truth seek consistency, which is why some people consider the Truth of the Orthodox Church. Christ although telling us to learn from Samaritans still rebuked the Samaritan women in her faith telling her "You don't know what you worship."

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the other churches.Amen! I recognize that this verse was given to rebuke the foolish sectarian spirit of the Corinthian Christians. I think we must also remember that we cannot unite at the expense of faith.

However, I do like to add something positive in all of this. As far as I know, within Christianity, there exists 30,000 denominations as an estimation. I think no other religion in history has had that much division over understanding Christian faith. It does lead to heavy criticism of Christianity among both Christians and non-Christians. But then it should get people's attention. There's something about Christ that has people dividing and yet wanting to keep Him as their God. There are many who are lead to unbelief, but then there are those who want to keep Christ so much, even if it means division.

I think this idea is what lead C.S. Lewis to write the famous "Mere Christianity," as a way of writing that which is common among us. I think it's safe to say that almost all those who call themselves Christians consider "Mere Christianity" a must read.

God bless.

[MoNiCa4316]

1. Are you a member of a denomination? If so, why that particular denomination? If not, why not?

I'm non denominational, and evangelical Protestant in theology. I like it because it has helped me discover the 'relationship with God' side of Christianity, instead of it just being about religion and church. This idea is present in all denominations, but not all focus on it that much.

2. What do you believe about the unity of the Church and how that relates to denominations?

I believe that if anyone is 'in Christ', they are a part of His Body and thus a part of the Church. The Church is not divided, and denominations only divide us on the surface. However, we need to work on having a unity on the visible level as well, and this unity can be achieved not by all having the same views but by love. This is what sets us apart from the world.

(http://minasoliman.christianforums.com/)

By the way, "Mere Christianity" is a great book :) I agree.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the Name of Jesus; :hug:

Denominations are the Doctrines of men. And from " grafted vines" and the " wild grapes " of the vineyard of God.

Denominations are the mass Unlearned of God. as Individuals were prevented from bible reading in middle ages; when Latin was all that was allowed; And denominational Christians were followers of doctrines of men. Not personal relationships with God and his word.

Isaiah 29;13 speaks of the unlearned of God who learn not the word but man precepts or denominational teachings. " forasmuch as this people draw near me with their lips and with their mouth they do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of man."

This is true for denominational church's. Fear of God is taught by precepts of men. Some 2000 different denominational truths, from One God, One Salvation, ONe Church, and One Truth, Gods Truth.

Denominations claim that Gods spiritual truth, resides in Brick and mortar; of mans creation in institutions, Like Notre Dame, and Oral roberts, or S.M.U.

God resides in only two places; in the word, and in the hearts of men who walk in spirit of Jesus.

I pray my words do not offend any; and may God bless Christian Forum, and all who use it.:wave:
</IMG>