The Truth about Tongues - Once and for All

[JesusServant]

This is for everyone that thinks that tongues by the Holy Spirit should or were always understood by the speaker and/or those around them...  READ the highlighted scriptures here by Paul.  PLEASE pay attention to what they say, not what they don't say....

(1 Corinthians 14:1) Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

(1 Corinthians 14:2) For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Hello?  Read what that says in 14:2 over and over until it sinks in please.  I'm tired of these same tongues debates from people that think just because they haven't experienced something themselves that it cannot be.

(1 Corinthians 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification, and exhortation, and consolation.

(1 Corinthians 14:4) He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

(1 Corinthians 14:5) Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

(1 Corinthians 14:6) But now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching?

(1 Corinthians 14:7) Even things without life, giving a voice, whether pipe or harp, if they give not a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

(1 Corinthians 14:8) For if the trumpet give an uncertain voice, who shall prepare himself for war?

(1 Corinthians 14:9) So also ye, unless ye utter by the tongue speech easy to understand, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking into the air.

(1 Corinthians 14:10) There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and no kind is without signification.

(1 Corinthians 14:11) If then I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be to him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh will be a barbarian unto me.

(1 Corinthians 14:12) So also ye, since ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may abound unto the edifying of the church.

(1 Corinthians 14:13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

(1 Corinthians 14:14) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

You see, there is a "prayer language" for your soul.  It is useful when you are in agony or crying out to God and there are no words left to say and/or you don't know what else to say to God but your soul is still crying out.  This is a form of tongues that is healthy for your spirit and Paul would have it that all people pray in their own tongue.  This is best useful in private when you're in your "prayer closet" and is not edifying to the Church, but it IS edifying to your own spirit.  It is only edifying to the Church if you can interpret or someone else can interpret the message in a meeting of Church people.

(1 Corinthians 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

(1 Corinthians 14:16) Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?

(1 Corinthians 14:17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

(1 Corinthians 14:18) I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

(1 Corinthians 14:19) howbeit in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

(1 Corinthians 14:20) Brethren, be not children in mind: yet in malice be ye babes, but in mind be men.

(1 Corinthians 14:21) In the law it is written, By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thus will they hear me, saith the Lord.

(1 Corinthians 14:22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.

(1 Corinthians 14:23) If therefore the whole church be assembled together and all speak with tongues, and there come in men unlearned or unbelieving, will they not say that ye are mad?

Sounds like what people who claim to be believers do even in these forums.  :sigh:

(1 Corinthians 14:24) But if all prophesy, and there come in one unbelieving or unlearned, he is reproved by all, he is judged by all;

(1 Corinthians 14:25) the secrets of his heart are made manifest; and so he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed.

(1 Corinthians 14:26) What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each one hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

(1 Corinthians 14:27) If any man speaketh in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and that in turn; and let one interpret:

(1 Corinthians 14:28) but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

(1 Corinthians 14:29) And let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern.

(1 Corinthians 14:30) But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence.

(1 Corinthians 14:31) For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted;

(1 Corinthians 14:32) and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets;

(1 Corinthians 14:33) for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

(1 Corinthians 14:34) let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

(1 Corinthians 14:35) And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

(1 Corinthians 14:36) What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone?

(1 Corinthians 14:37) If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.

(1 Corinthians 14:38) But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant.


Maybe I should just let this go and let him who is ignorant remain ignorant about tongues, edification and prophecy.

(1 Corinthians 14:39) Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

(1 Corinthians 14:40) But let all things be done decently and in order.

To those who doubt tongues for the use of the edifying for one's soul not just to bridge the gap between different languages,  would you remain ignorant to the full understanding of tongues and the two uses of tongues or would you be willing to admit that you just haven't experienced them yet and spoke out of ignorance concerning the truth about tongues?  I am not judging you for I too misjudged tongues and those who spoke in tongues.  God bless.

[dignitized]

Speaking in tongues is one of the things I just don't get people getting worked up over. Scripture calles it the LEAST of the gifts so - so what if you or I cannot speak in tounges - so what if we can!

[aus_koala]

Part of Isaiah 28......

In that day the LORD Almighty
will be a glorious crown,
a beautiful wreath
for the remnant of his people.
He will be a spirit of justice
to him who sits in judgment,
a source of strength
to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.
All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.

"Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule [1] ;
a little here, a little there."

Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"-
but they would not listen.
So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there-
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.



Seems to me that even God speaks in tongues.... maybe we should listen....

[Andrew]

Scripture calles it the LEAST of the gifts so - so what if you or I cannot speak in tounges - so what if we can!

well, if you think a gift from God is a "SO WHAT!?" deal, that says a lot about your attitude towards the Holy Spirit.

Least of the gifts or not, tongues is still a powerful weapon for the Christian, and it wld do the Christian well to just shut up, humble himself and seek after this equipping for his own good.

We always talk abt submitting ourselves to God. Well, start with your tongue. When God has your tongue, he has your body. The part of the body that represents the 'tithe' to God is the tongue.

We always talk about the importance of prayer and praying scripturally. So why not pray in tongues for when you pray in tongues, the Holy Spirit is in a sense praying through you. He knows best what to pray, who to pray for, when to pray, etc. If we just stick to our mind and English we are severely limited. So, if this itself is not reason enough to seek the spiritual lang of tongues, then that's real sad.

[dignitized]

andrew: too many people and churches base their "salvation" upon the gift of tongues. To say that we must have it or will have this gift is silly. I know many people who have manifested other gifts of the spirit and have never manifested Tongues.

It is the LEAST of the gifts and even if it were not - I will still say so what if you have it - or do not have it - This gift is not something to get hung up on. What right do we have to worry and judge over what GIFTS God gives or does not give? If God gives you the gift of the Midas touch - so what. Does that mean he loves you more or me less? We hae no right to take pride in or glroy from God given gifts.

[Andrew]

andrew: too many people and churches base their "salvation" upon the gift of tongues.

that is simply a myth Max. In all my 20+ years of being a Christian, I've only come across 2 people from a local church who base salvation on tongues. Neither have I met anyone on this forum who believes that.

And where does one get the idea that tongues is the least of the gifts? Scripture proof?

In fact all the gifts have more or less equal value and usefulness.

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Best gifts here means the most useful in a given situation. For example if you deal a lot with sick people, then of cse the best gift wld be healing and or faith. But if you need to build up your spirit man or witness to a foreigner then of cse tongues wld be best -- healing wld serve no pupose if the guy aint sick.

The comparison of the body parts Paul talks about is also NOT a comparison or grading of gifts. Read carefully, Paul is talking abt the people in the church, the members who have the gifts, not the gifts. So Mr X who has the gift of healing cannot say he does not need Mr Y who has the gift of tongues and vice versa.

[JesusServant]

Yesterday at 08:45 AM Br. Max said this in Post #5 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=725629#post725629)

andrew: too many people and churches base their "salvation" upon the gift of tongues. To say that we must have it or will have this gift is silly. I know many people who have manifested other gifts of the spirit and have never manifested Tongues.

It is the LEAST of the gifts and even if it were not - I will still say so what if you have it - or do not have it - This gift is not something to get hung up on. What right do we have to worry and judge over what GIFTS God gives or does not give? If God gives you the gift of the Midas touch - so what. Does that mean he loves you more or me less? We hae no right to take pride in or glroy from God given gifts.



Yeah, people who speak in tongues or believe in it think they're better than everyone else. :rolleyes:

The point is Max that it is quite possible that making fun of people that are using a gift of the Holy Spirit is the very blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is spoken of as the unforgivable sin, so people need to know it is a gift and not something to be misunderstood, made fun of or not believed in.  If someone doesn't believe in it they might as well trash the rest of the New Testament while they're at it, but it is true. 

Do you always throw aside the least Max?  Think about it.

[SpiritPsalmist]

19th March 2003 at 11:47 PM Andrew said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=725046#post725046)



well, if you think a gift from God is a "SO WHAT!?" deal, that says a lot about your attitude towards the Holy Spirit.

Least of the gifts or not, tongues is still a powerful weapon for the Christian, and it wld do the Christian well to just shut up, humble himself and seek after this equipping for his own good.

We always talk abt submitting ourselves to God. Well, start with your tongue. When God has your tongue, he has your body. The part of the body that represents the 'tithe' to God is the tongue.

We always talk about the importance of prayer and praying scripturally. So why not pray in tongues for when you pray in tongues, the Holy Spirit is in a sense praying through you. He knows best what to pray, who to pray for, when to pray, etc. If we just stick to our mind and English we are severely limited. So, if this itself is not reason enough to seek the spiritual lang of tongues, then that's real sad.



And isn't there a scripture that says something about "whoever is faithful with a little will be given more" (somthing like that anyway).  So since tongues is the least of the gifts, when it is received and handled correctly then the others will be given accordingly. 

Just a thought!

[JesusServant]

Quaffer, I can't wait to meet you one day. :hug:

[dignitized]

JS:I'm not talking about throwing it aside - I'm talking about not maiking an issue out of it. :) What we should be making issues out of are things such as Orthopraxy and Charity and Purity :)

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 09:45 AM Br. Max said this in Post #5 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=725629#post725629)

andrew: too many people and churches base their "salvation" upon the gift of tongues. To say that we must have it or will have this gift is silly. I know many people who have manifested other gifts of the spirit and have never manifested Tongues.

It is the LEAST of the gifts and even if it were not - I will still say so what if you have it - or do not have it - This gift is not something to get hung up on. What right do we have to worry and judge over what GIFTS God gives or does not give? If God gives you the gift of the Midas touch - so what. Does that mean he loves you more or me less? We hae no right to take pride in or glroy from God given gifts.



Br. Max,

I suppose there are people out there who take great pride in being able to operate in a gift. . .though, I think that is much like taking the credit for having blue or green eyes.  But just because someone missuses a gift does not mean that we ignore it. . .  Much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Each of us has gifts that are given to us by God.  That in itself really does make them a "big deal".  All of them.  From the least to the best.  However, we cannot take the credit for them.  Through no effort of our own He offers them to us to use for the sake of the Kingdom.

If we choose to ignore the gifts He's given and write them off as the "least", so I don't want it, then we are in a sense snubbing our nose up to Him.

You are right.  No one has the right to take pride in or glory in God given gifts.   And as far as I know, I am not doing that.  Of course, because our enemy, the devil, who goes about like a roaring lion, is seeking anyone to devour. . .I'm forever humbling myself before Him, so that I do not become devoured.

I believe we all have the possibility of falling into pride somewhere.  Not one of us is exempt from it.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 05:20 PM Br. Max said this in Post #10 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=728419#post728419)

JS:I'm not talking about throwing it aside - I'm talking about not maiking an issue out of it. :) What we should be making issues out of are things such as Orthopraxy and Charity and Purity :)



Ok, my last post when in at the same time as yours and your's got in first.

I don't believe I'm making an issue of it.  If I have an answer to something, I will answer.  I'm not gonna say, sorry, that's not an issue I'm supposed to talk about. 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 04:17 PM JesusServant said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=728282#post728282)

Quaffer, I can't wait to meet you one day. :hug:




:D Thank you.  :pink:  I'm in central Florida. . .where are you?

[Andrew]

Well it may seem like we're making an issue out of it but that's becos this is a dicussion forum and this is the topic!

Christians who speak in tongues don't go around making a big fuss out of it (except maybe flaky ones), they go about their lives just like every other Christian. Only that instead of just praying in English or praising God in English, they do it in tongues too.

[dignitized]

There are many christian churches that feel that speaking in tongues is paramount within the Christian faith. AOG for example. Tongues are great is done properly and in obedience to scripture. :) But to make them a REQUIREMENT for and of salvation?? Thats preaching works.

[tulc]

Br. Max wrote:
snip
"There are many christian churches that feel that speaking in tongues is paramount within the Christian faith. AOG for example. "
snip
I'd say be cautious about this, AOG are as different from each other as Baptists from Baptist. The tendency to over simplify is always a temptation, but it's to be avoided when applying to Brothers & Sisters in the Lord. Just my 2 cents.

[superdave]

I agree completely with you Jesus Servant on what you say Tongues is for.

And I  would like to chime in Penecostal and Charismatic Churches DO not require Tongues for salvation. That's just crazy if you think that we believe that! We believe that Tongues is an attachment that God gives us. I do believe that Baptism of the Holy Spirit- is the gift of tongues. And it is VERY necessary for believers to have it. But, also to an extent I believe that some people may not get the gift of tongues but have another spiritual gift.

For the Record: WE DO NOT REQUIRE TONGUES FOR SALVATION...

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 12:02 AM Br. Max said this in Post #15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=728999#post728999)

There are many christian churches that feel that speaking in tongues is paramount within the Christian faith. AOG for example. Tongues are great is done properly and in obedience to scripture. :) But to make them a REQUIREMENT for and of salvation?? Thats preaching works.



While I am no longer part of the Assemblys of God, I was raised Assembly's of God and they do NOT teach that speaking in tongues is paramount within the Christian faith.  They teach, like most, that speaking in tongues is the initial evedence that one is baptized in the Holy Ghost.  They DO NOT make them a requirement for and of salvation.




 

[sbbqb7n16]

My thought:

I'd rather have the least gift, than no gift at all :)

Good thread... JesusServant that must have taken a while to type up that whole chapter. Thank you for your great time and effort :D Have a great day!

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 06:10 PM sbbqb7n16 said this in Post #19 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=731582#post731582)

My thought:

I'd rather have the least gift, than no gift at all :) 





Bravo Paul  :clap: :P

[Gordi]

Only a few days after I was saved and felt the Holy Spirit come into my presence, I met people from a certain revival fellowship (not all revival fellowships are the same btw).

I had been healed from my addictions by the Holy Spirit and was over the moon with joy, but that was not enough for these people as they said speaking in tongues was a necessary sign of salvation.

They didn't even regard me as a Christian and said I still needed to recieve the Holy Spirit for salvation.

Needless to say it reduced me to tears and had me arguing with my family etc..........

I hope I never get into that situation again, I'm faithful of my conversion, but that really left a nasty taste in my mouth.

[Blindfaith]

Gordi,

You have my heartfelt support. I too had a really bad experience regarding this, and my conclusion is is that my relationship with the Lord, and relationship with others is wayyyy more important than speaking in tongues, or lack thereof.

I hope you're okay now?

[Andrew]

I hope I never get into that situation again, I'm faithful of my conversion, but that really left a nasty taste in my mouth.

So, are you going to throw out the baby with the bath water?

my conclusion is is that my relationship with the Lord, and relationship with others is wayyyy more important than speaking in tongues, or lack thereof.

if you cld take your relationship/communication with God to a higher level, would you?

[dignitized]

andrew? baby out with the bath water? you mean like the reformation did?? :D ;)

BTW - I have manifest the gift of tongues among other gifts . . . I would NEVER say however that it is "the" discerning sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[Blindfaith]

Andrew my friend, I don't think we're going to completely understand where the other is coming from :)

God is doing some amazing things in/with me, because I am trusting him, just as He instructed Abraham to do. It's not because I'm speaking a different language.

I respect your position, but I want to be respected as well. And, I know that you will. :) Also, I'd like to point out, that a fellow Christian, Gordi, had a terrible experience with those who made him feel guilty about not being able to "speak in tongues". Those who are gung-ho need to leave him be, and just encourage and edify him.

Know what I'm saying?

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 09:23 PM Gordi said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=734167#post734167)

Only a few days after I was saved and felt the Holy Spirit come into my presence, I met people from a certain revival fellowship (not all revival fellowships are the same btw).

I had been healed from my addictions by the Holy Spirit and was over the moon with joy, but that was not enough for these people as they said speaking in tongues was a necessary sign of salvation.

They didn't even regard me as a Christian and said I still needed to recieve the Holy Spirit for salvation.

Needless to say it reduced me to tears and had me arguing with my family etc..........

I hope I never get into that situation again, I'm faithful of my conversion, but that really left a nasty taste in my mouth.



Hey Gordi,

I do know what you mean.  One time on a public bus I tried to start a conversation with a man who was reading his Bible.  But because I was a woman and wear pants, he could only criticizise me and tell me I did not really know God because I was wearing pants.  :(

I felt humiliated because I had been witnessing for some time to several other people on that bus. 

I grew up in the Penticostal group but abandened that teaching when we changed to AOG.  Some members of my own family still believe that way.  One time, when I went to visit I was wearing a pair of long shorts. Actually, at that time they were called cullots (spelling ?), now they would call them skorts.  Anyway, one Aunt told me I was not welcome in her home wearing shorts.  :(

Anyway, just keep on loving God, and don't reject anything just because of what others may do or say. 

I believe tongues is a great asset to my spiritual walk.  The Holy Spirit makes intercession for me and lifts me up above the things that would bring me down.  It is not a requirement of salvation though. 

Sorry for your bad experience.  Be blessed. :)

[Gordi]

Hey thanks :)

What's kinda frustrating about this kinda thing is that, whilst I know it's not necessary for salvation I like the fact that people still seek and use the spiritual gifts.

Andrew, I'm not saying that the spiritual gifts are wrong or not in use anymore, and yes if I am blessed by the Holy Spirit to use certain gifts to take my relationship with God higher then that is amazing.

I think that sects that think speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation are gonna actually put people off seeking the gifts for a start.

[hobart schmedly]

Yesterday at 09:23 PM Gordi said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=734167#post734167)

Only a few days after I was saved and felt the Holy Spirit come into my presence, I met people from a certain revival fellowship (not all revival fellowships are the same btw).

I had been healed from my addictions by the Holy Spirit and was over the moon with joy, but that was not enough for these people as they said speaking in tongues was a necessary sign of salvation.

They were not correct. Faith is the evidence of these things... that is all that you actually need. But in your testimony, the joy you were feeling was also evidence of an inward Change.
You do, however, have the "abba" word within your newborn spirit. You can speak forth from that spirit, and this is much of what the NT is talking about when it talks about tongues and prophesying.


They didn't even regard me as a Christian and said I still needed to recieve the Holy Spirit for salvation.

They were wrong. They likely are confusing the Holy Spirit with the spirit of Christ that is born into you when you were born again. Like I said above, everyone receives the spirit of Christ and the "abba" word when they are born again. Not everyone is baptised with the Holy Spirit immediately upon conversion. Not everyone speaks in tongues at that time.


Needless to say it reduced me to tears and had me arguing with my family etc..........

I hope I never get into that situation again, I'm faithful of my conversion, but that really left a nasty taste in my mouth.
Truely unfortunate!

Know that everyone who has called upon the name of the Lord is saved.
Rom 10:13

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God
1 John 5:1

[Blindfaith]

Gordi,  there's so much focus on speaking in tongues, and I think it's because it is the most "controversial" so to speak. (no pun intended ;)).

Everyone here recognizes though that there are many other gifts of the Spirit though.  I'll start a new thread so we can discuss these.  I don't want to hijack this thread.

Peace in Christ!

[sbbqb7n16]

Today at 09:47 AM Quaffer said this in Post #26 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=735192#post735192) 
... But because I was a woman and wear pants, he could only criticizise me and tell me I did not really know God because I was wearing pants.  :( 
...




And here I was thinking that all along "that (we) love one another" would be the sign of who was a disciple... not pants... :cry:

I know you are a loving person Quaff :D

I do think that many people's (who act like that) actions contradict the whole "I desire mercy not sacrifice" speech which is touched on often in Matthew's gospel. Also "neglecting the more important aspects of the law" Matthew 23:23

Ohh I wish Jesus would come back really soon!

[AChildOfGodWithIronFaith]

any gift from God is precious and none are "least important" in my eyes!

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 04:45 PM sbbqb7n16 said this in Post #30 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=735799#post735799)




And here I was thinking that all along "that (we) love one another" would be the sign of who was a disciple... not pants... :cry:

I know you are a loving person Quaff :D

I do think that many people's (who act like that) actions contradict the whole "I desire mercy not sacrifice" speech which is touched on often in Matthew's gospel. Also "neglecting the more important aspects of the law" Matthew 23:23

Ohh I wish Jesus would come back really soon!




Me too Paul.  :pray:

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 04:55 PM AChildOfGodWithIronFaith said this in Post #31 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=735833#post735833)

any gift from God is precious and none are "least important" in my eyes!



Good for you honey.  I can say honey cause I'm so much older than you :) :)

And none should be considered least important.  As you've said, "every gift from God is precious" and should be treated as such.

Thanks,

Quaffer

[JesusServant]

21st March 2003 at 04:32 PM Quaffer said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=728443#post728443)




:D Thank you.  :pink:  I'm in central Florida. . .where are you?




I'm in Nashville, TN, but I was talking about further into the future. ;)  But hey, you never know!

[JesusServant]

23rd March 2003 at 05:10 PM sbbqb7n16 said this in Post #19 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=731582#post731582)

My thought:

I'd rather have the least gift, than no gift at all :)

Good thread... JesusServant that must have taken a while to type up that whole chapter. Thank you for your great time and effort :D Have a great day!



Copy and paste my friend, copy and paste.  I had just had this discussion with some friends just before I saw another thread on tongues and knew how vital that chapter is on understanding tongues.  Thank you for the thanks and you're most certainly welcome! :)

For those I don't have time to reply to, we all know that love/charity is the most important of all gifts (even though it is actually a fruit) but that doesn't make tongues any less special to those who use it as a tool of worship and praise and even prophecy in some cases.

[JesusServant]

Yesterday at 08:23 PM Gordi said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=734167#post734167)

Only a few days after I was saved and felt the Holy Spirit come into my presence, I met people from a certain revival fellowship (not all revival fellowships are the same btw).

I had been healed from my addictions by the Holy Spirit and was over the moon with joy, but that was not enough for these people as they said speaking in tongues was a necessary sign of salvation.

They didn't even regard me as a Christian and said I still needed to recieve the Holy Spirit for salvation.

Needless to say it reduced me to tears and had me arguing with my family etc..........

I hope I never get into that situation again, I'm faithful of my conversion, but that really left a nasty taste in my mouth.



It's really this simple...

Did Elizabeth speak in tongues when her baby (John the Baptist) lept in her womb when the Holy Spirit came over her when Mary told her the news about Gabriel's visit?  Then apparently tongues does not always follow the Holy Spirit.  :)

I'm sorry that you went through that anguish and people should be more careful about their necessity for signs and wonders (especially those that are Holy Spirit filled).  They caused you grief and stole your joy and I hope you have prayed for them and forgiven them as they know not what they did.  God bless you my friend!

[Andrew]

andrew? baby out with the bath water? you mean like the reformation did??

no, but since you brought it up, yes, thank God the reformation through out much of the dirty bathwater but kept the baby. ;)

God is doing some amazing things in/with me, because I am trusting him, just as He instructed Abraham to do. It's not because I'm speaking a different language.

It was a simple question blindfaith, and you didnt have to side-step it. God can certainly bless us in other ways but there's no need to put down tongues just becos of some -ve experiences or by saying it's overemphasised. This is the topic of discussion in this thread afterall.

[Gordi]

Andrew I like your website!

I always love having a look at what other Christians are doing around the world :)

That beach looks lovely!

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 11:36 PM JesusServant said this in Post #34 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=736828#post736828)




I'm in Nashville, TN, but I was talking about further into the future. ;)  But hey, you never know!



You mean like. . .in heaven?  :)  I knew you did not mean today. . .but you never know about tomorrow :)  I was just wondering where you were located.  You're not all that far . . .I have close friends in Smyrna. . .so you really do never know.  And of course, if you ever bring your family down to visit Mickey :D

God bless!

Quaffer

[MissytheButterfly]

20th March 2003 at 02:45 PM Br. Max said this in Post #5 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=725629#post725629)

andrew: too many people and churches base their "salvation" upon the gift of tongues. To say that we must have it or will have this gift is silly. I know many people who have manifested other gifts of the spirit and have never manifested Tongues.

It is the LEAST of the gifts and even if it were not - I will still say so what if you have it - or do not have it - This gift is not something to get hung up on. What right do we have to worry and judge over what GIFTS God gives or does not give? If God gives you the gift of the Midas touch - so what. Does that mean he loves you more or me less? We hae no right to take pride in or glroy from God given gifts.




This is indeed a rare occassion for me to agree with Br. Max but I must say I couldn't have stated his words better on my own. He is absolutely correct in saying that to many people and churches base their "salvation" upon the gift of tongues.

Many churches believe if you don't exhibit speaking in tongues after immersion baptism one isn't saved. Which is obviously ridiculous since the bible does state not everyone will have the gift and it doesn't say salvation or lack of it is base on one's ability to speak in tongues.

I also agree with Br. Max, if you have it.. SO WHAT ? Thank God for it and move on.. there are tons of gifts that God gives. Be thankful for it, don't gloat and use it for his glory. And I am not sorry in saying this but I have actually seen with my own two eyes professed Christians judging and actually telling someone they are going to hell because they don't speak in tongues, that they haven't "left" the world behind, and even that that person's salvation is not valid. And frankly, people that say this..I have a hard time believing they really do speak in tongues. Speaking in tongues is as easy as pie to fake, so who know's who's speaking it or not unless one has a very trained spiritual eye. And honestly, it's a VERY RARE BREED of people that actually do have a trained spiritual eye although many claim to have it or discernment of the Spirit.

And I have to say right on Br. Max.. we have no right to take pride in gifts. That's what I like about the Apostle Paul.. he never bragged but's it's obvious he was a true man of God that could truthfully have had bragging rights. I say some should take a lesson from his example.. :rolleyes:

Missy



 

[hobart schmedly]

Today at 01:16 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #40 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=737844#post737844)

[B]This is indeed a rare occassion for me to agree with Br. Max but I must say I couldn't have stated his words better on my own. He is absolutely correct in saying that to many people and churches base their "salvation" upon the gift of tongues.
Hi missy...
Can you name just a few of these many churches?

Many churches believe if you don't exhibit speaking in tongues after immersion baptism one isn't saved. Which is obviously ridiculous since the bible does state not everyone will have the gift and it doesn't say salvation or lack of it is base on one's ability to speak in tongues.
Again. please specify just a dozen of so of these many churches. I am curious. I have been a christian for 30+ years, have been to more churches that I can remember... and I have never found one of these "many" churches of which you speak.

I also agree with Br. Max, if you have it.. SO WHAT ? Thank God for it and move on.. there are tons of gifts that God gives. Be thankful for it, don't gloat and use it for his glory. And I am not sorry in saying this but I have actually seen with my own two eyes professed Christians judging and actually telling someone they are going to hell because they don't speak in tongues, that they haven't "left" the world behind, and even that that person's salvation is not valid.
Is this person a member of one of these many chruches. Is this a denomination... or some independent group.



And I have to say right on Br. Max.. we have no right to take pride in gifts. That's what I like about the Apostle Paul.. he never bragged but's it's obvious he was a true man of God that could truthfully have had bragging rights. I say some should take a lesson from his example.. :rolleyes:
Actually Paul got in a lot of trouble because of pride and even had a demon following him around harrassing him because of it. But that is another issue.
Anyway, if you can... please get together with Max and work up short list out of the many churches that teach these things. A dozen should do. Should be easy to put together since there are so many.

Thanks!



:wave:

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 03:14 PM hobart schmedly said this in Post #41 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=738120#post738120)
please specify just a dozen of so of these many churches. I am curious. I have been a christian for 30+ years, have been to more churches that I can remember... and I have never found one of these "many" churches of which you speak. 





My grandparents, whom I spent most of my early years with, and from whom I learned about Jesus, and accepted Him into my heart somewhere around 3 or 4 years old,  were Penticostal Church of God and I never heard such teaching. 

My parents began attending  a Penticostal Holiness church when I was around 8 and I never heard the teaching there.

When I was 11 we started attending the Assembly's of God, and they never taught it either. 

The current church, which is non-denominational and we speak in tongues, interpret tongues, prophesy, heal, cast out demons, etc, and I have never heard this teaching.

I also am curious as to what churches these are that teach this.

[hobart schmedly]

Today at 03:38 PM Quaffer said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=738177#post738177)


I also am curious as to what churches these are that teach this.


I too have been in these churches for many years... PCOG, AOG, COG, WOF, many more.... independants too.

I am curious too Quaffie.

Especially since there are so "many"...

I mean "many" is a relative term that takes into consideration the total number in a group.

10 in a million would not be many. But 10 in a dozen would be considered many. So when someone says "many" churches and believers promote this teaching, I would have to assume they mean most, or at least a majority.
But as you have said, and I concur, I have never met any church that teaches this... and I honestly do not even recall a single individual that does either. And I have been out here for many years teaching and learning in these very churches. If I had run up on one, I know myself well enough that I surely would remember and likely would have taken issue. But I recall none.

But I am eager to hear the responses.
Perhaps Missy and Max can supply some websites where they have seen these things being said. I am curious as to the reasoning that promotes this teaching.
:help:

[Kirisutokyoo-shinja]

I am pentocostal and I have also never experienced or heard of such teachings. The bible defines us saved by grace and believing in Christ Jesus. (aka...which alots the grace to us) ok different subject, but yes.
No such thing as a required attribute for salvation meaning one must speak in tongues.

[Gordi]

Well I have only had this from one movement.  The Revival Fellowship.

Check this page out....   http://www.trf.org.au/article7.asp

[Gordi]

It's the fourth point down.

[Andrew]

In Singapore, I only know of one church that teaches that. It's called True Jesus Church.
I came to know abt this church abt 10 years back when I was studying in the Uni. I was staying in the hostel and next door to me was this guy from that church. There was another guy from another block who was from the same church.

They preached to me and their main thrust was this: to be saved you must have the Holy Spirit. To know that you have the Holy Spirit, you must be able to speak in tongues. IOW no tongues, no salvation.

They really got me confused (they were really well-versed in their Bible and threw all sorts of scriptures to prove their point). At that time I was very much a carnal Christian and it didnt really bother me that I "wasnt saved yet bcos I couldnt speak in tongues".

Somehow I knew I was already saved. but it did get me a lot more curious about tongues. Strangely, I never hated tongues or ppl who spoke in tongues becos of this encounter, which lasted some time. In fact, it made me desire tongues more than ever, just that I didnt know then how to receive.

Well, today, it's no more a mystery to me. I'm glad I did not throw out the baby with the bathwater!
:)

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yesterday at 08:55 PM Gordi said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=738880#post738880)

Well I have only had this from one movement.  The Revival Fellowship.

Check this page out....   http://www.trf.org.au/article7.asp



Gordi,

Have you conversed with these people? 

I read the part in the section "What Must I Do To Be Saved", under "The Following Steps Give Assurance Of Eternal Life", at point #3 "Receive The Holy Spirit".

You are promised a wonderful experience with your Saviour.

"He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire ..." (Matt 3:11 KJV).

You are encouraged to receive this power. (Luke 11:9-13). By reading and believing the many accounts of the Holy Spirit in the early Church, you will find great faith to claim this experience. You will 'speak in tongues' as promised to all believers (Mark 16:17).

They do seem to be saying you are assured of your salvation by speaking in tongues and that I believe is wrong.  Obviously, since Satan is a fallen angel, he can even speak in tongues of men and angels. 

Thanks Gordi,

Quaffer

[Gordi]

Underneath the where it says  What We Believe

Beside the forth dot down it says:

We believe we are baptised into the Body of Christ (the church) throught the Holy Spirit, with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.

-------------------------------------

They don't accept that you have recieved the Holy Spirit unless you speak in tongues.

That's what they said their belief is to me.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 01:08 PM Gordi said this in Post #49 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=740384#post740384)

Underneath the where it says  What We Believe

Beside the forth dot down it says:

We believe we are baptised into the Body of Christ (the church) throught the Holy Spirit, with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.

-------------------------------------

They don't accept that you have recieved the Holy Spirit unless you speak in tongues.

That's what they said their belief is to me.




Sorry Gordi,

Your post came in as I was revising mine.  :angel:

 

[Gordi]

No problem quaffer :D

[hobart schmedly]

Yesterday at 08:55 PM Gordi said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=738880#post738880)

Well I have only had this from one movement.  The Revival Fellowship.

Check this page out....   http://www.trf.org.au/article7.asp



Hi Gordi,
I looked over this site and really was not sure where it said one had to speak in tongues to be saved.
I could be misreading it.
Perhaps people are just putting different meaning to the same words.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 01:28 PM hobart schmedly said this in Post #52 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=740462#post740462)



Hi Gordi,
I looked over this site and really was not sure where it said one had to speak in tongues to be saved.
I could be misreading it.
Perhaps people are just putting different meaning to the same words.




Hobart,

I read over it too and had the same initial reaction, however, they do seem to be saying you are not filled with the spirit unless you speak in tongues, and if you are not filled with the Spirit, then you are not saved. 

That seemed to be the way it came across to me anyway.

[hobart schmedly]

Underneath the where it says What We Believe

Beside the forth dot down it says:

We believe we are baptised into the Body of Christ (the church) throught the Holy Spirit, with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.

-------------------------------------

They don't accept that you have recieved the Holy Spirit unless you speak in tongues.

That's what they said their belief is to me.


There is an understanding in these groups that the Holy Spirit is something separate from the new birth. They(like many) believe you receive the spirit of Christ when you are born again, and you receive the Holy Spirit also. But you are baptised in the Holy Spirit as a separate action after this.
They are not saying that you need to speak in tongues to be saved. They are simply saying that if you are baptised in the Holy Spirit, you will have the bible evidence of speaking in tongues. Separate issue all together.
There are people who are saved for many years who never speak in tongues.
This is all a matter of interpretation....
But they are not intending to say you have to speak in tongues to be saved.

[Gordi]

Well thats funny cause the Holy Spirit has already worked in me and healed me and I have not spoken in tongues.

They don't believe you're a proper Christian unless you are spirit filled, and they said to me that if you are a spirit filled Christian you will speak in tongues as biblical evidence.

Trust me I attended some of their meetings and they expressed this viewpoint quite clearly.

[SpiritPsalmist]

I just e-mailed them and asked them.

Here's how I asked the question:

Do you believe that if one is saved, they will speak in tongues? In other words. . .if one does not speak in tongues, does that mean they are NOT saved?

I'll let you know the response I get. :)

[Gordi]

Ok should be interesting :)

[Miyu]

I used to attend a United Pentecostal Church...they teach that you must speak in tongues to be saved...they also teach that you must be baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus to be saved and deny the trinity.

Most other pentecostal denominations do not believe these things and consider the UPC a cult.

[conceived in fire]

if that were true...im not saved and probably never will be...heh

[Miyu]

Don't be so sure...if a little girl can get you to clap during the worship service and drink from a partiotic coffee cup...well...anything is possible.

[conceived in fire]

hehe...that is true....and the plate...dont forget the plate

[look]

25th March 2003 at 11:44 PM JesusServant said this in Post #36 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=736849#post736849)



It's really this simple...

Did Elizabeth speak in tongues when her baby (John the Baptist) lept in her womb when the Holy Spirit came over her when Mary told her the news about Gabriel's visit?  Then apparently tongues does not always follow the Holy Spirit.  :)

I'm sorry that you went through that anguish and people should be more careful about their necessity for signs and wonders (especially those that are Holy Spirit filled).  They caused you grief and stole your joy and I hope you have prayed for them and forgiven them as they know not what they did.  God bless you my friend!

JesusServant, you missed the timing of Elizabeth and the day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit wasn't given to the church untill 50 days after the Passover on which Jesus died for us. However, prophecy has been manifested since the day of creation.

As an interesting side note here, We, the church are a Royal Priesthood, right? Did you know that back in the old days, way back to the time the Ark of the Covenant was hidden by Jeremiah, as the high priest on the Day of Atonement went into the Holy of Holies to make the covering of sins of Israel, he spoke in tongues? He could speak in tongues when he was ministering in his capacity as High Priest, but only on that day when he was in the Holy of Holies.

Anyway, before the Day of Pentecost, people could be filled with the Holy Ghost, but now in the church age, we are not only filled by the Holy Ghost, we are immersed in the Holy Ghost. Hence the word, baptism of the Holy Ghost :)

[Gordi]

Actually I'm not gonna get into talking about tongues again. If they believe you have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit, they can if they believe that to be true.

I have no desire to have doubt swimming around in my head again.  I know I am saved.

[Andrew]

Gordi, as long as you have confessed Jesus as Lord and believed in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead, you are saved, period!

Now, moving right along...

there's more of the Holy Spirit for you. Yes, you've already gotten much but God does not stop there, he doesnt want you to either,

so question is, do you want to go into even deeper intimacy with the Holy Spirit, into direct communication with God through a spiritual language He'll give to you?

If you're not interested, then you are short changing yourself (but there's no condemnation), if you are, just ask and step out in faith, and you will receive.

The choice is yours :)

[look]

Today at 01:01 PM Quaffer said this in Post #48 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=740362#post740362)



Gordi,

Have you conversed with these people? 

I read the part in the section "What Must I Do To Be Saved", under "The Following Steps Give Assurance Of Eternal Life", at point #3 "Receive The Holy Spirit".



They do seem to be saying you are assured of your salvation by speaking in tongues and that I believe is wrong.  Obviously, since Satan is a fallen angel, he can even speak in tongues of men and angels. 

Thanks Gordi,

Quaffer

Hi, all! I thought I'd throw my two cents in. I've been all over their website and I can see why some people would think that this group of people sound like 'you have to speak in tongues to be saved'. However, I have looked at their literature and I have to say that I was impelled to reread Acts chapter 9, our readily available record of Paul's converson. I looked at what he said to Jesus and what Jesus said to him. I've looked into the record of Ananias and what he said to Paul regarding his healing and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I really can't see, anywhere in the website, where the requirement 'you have to speak in tongues to be saved' is found, however I have found that they are really making the statement that you can be assured of your salvation by receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost with tongues as evidence. I puzzled over the word 'assurance' for awhile, then I decided I would check the dictionary to see if my understanding of the meaning was correct. It wasn't. I thought it meant guaranteed. It doesn't, it really means in this use of the word, to make confident of..., i.e., to increase your confidence in your salvation.

So, I guess some things are easy to overlook and as a result misunderstand what it is they really are saying. This happens with many of us regarding the Word of God...That's why I take to heart God's words of encouragement to Joshua, God told Joshua to meditate on His word and then he would make his way prosperious. Joshua 1:8 has one word that most of us fail to do in our everyday lives. It is meditate on His word By doing this, I have learned to incorporate this into all areas of my life. It is amazing how much people miss when they read without taking the time to look at it and meditate on it. In most cases that's when you will start to pick up things you missed the first time around.

Yes, being baptized in the Holy Ghost would definitely assure you that you are saved. more confident. Can you see what I'm talking about?

By the way, I'm glad the link was posted, I found in the website an article I found very interesting. It was about the so called addition of Mark 16:9-20. I had a debate with this woman who was convinced that those verses were added onto Mark's Gospel at a much later date. I had never heard of that, but I argued that it original. I had told her that when you teach or preach His word, Jesus will confirm His Word with signs following. But she didn't want to hear any of it. Anyway, thanks for posting this thread and that link, I appreciate it! :)

[look]

Today at 01:31 PM Quaffer said this in Post #53 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=740475#post740475)




Hobart,

I read over it too and had the same initial reaction, however, they do seem to be saying you are not filled with the spirit unless you speak in tongues, and if you are not filled with the Spirit, then you are not saved. 

That seemed to be the way it came across to me anyway.

I thought there was a difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Ghost? There is, but you should find it...:)

[look]

Today at 03:49 PM Gordi said this in Post #55 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=740856#post740856)

Well thats funny cause the Holy Spirit has already worked in me and healed me and I have not spoken in tongues.

They don't believe you're a proper Christian unless you are spirit filled, and they said to me that if you are a spirit filled Christian you will speak in tongues as biblical evidence.

Trust me I attended some of their meetings and they expressed this viewpoint quite clearly.

Gordi, if you are not sure that you are in the church He wants you to be in, maybe you should seek God for guidance on which church He wants you to be connected to?

Anyway, if you are not comfortable with tongues, don't worry about it. If you continue to walk with God, He will take you there when you are ready! :)

[look]

Today at 04:27 PM Miyu said this in Post #58 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=740977#post740977)

I used to attend a United Pentecostal Church...they teach that you must speak in tongues to be saved...they also teach that you must be baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus to be saved and deny the trinity.

Most other pentecostal denominations do not believe these things and consider the UPC a cult.

EEWWW!!!:sick:

[Gordi]

Nice one look, I'm glad you got something interesting from the site. 

There is an interesting feature article on Sargon who is mentioned in the Bible.  :)

[MissytheButterfly]

26th March 2003 at 08:14 PM hobart schmedly said this in Post #41 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=738120#post738120)


Hi missy...
Can you name just a few of these many churches?


Again. please specify just a dozen of so of these many churches. I am curious. I have been a christian for 30+ years, have been to more churches that I can remember... and I have never found one of these "many" churches of which you speak.


Is this person a member of one of these many chruches. Is this a denomination... or some independent group.




Actually Paul got in a lot of trouble because of pride and even had a demon following him around harrassing him because of it. But that is another issue.
Anyway, if you can... please get together with Max and work up short list out of the many churches that teach these things. A dozen should do. Should be easy to put together since there are so many.

Thanks!



:wave:



Yup, Apostolic, Pentcostal, Bible-only churches, some non-denominational churches, and the AOG I have attended.. of course these churches are rather charismatic and I doubt if every single one of these churches hold this idea but those are the ones that I have attend where it has been specifically said BY THE MINISTER OF THE CHURCH you MUST get the gift of tongues during baptism or you don't have the HS and are not saved. As a matter of fact I watch one on television on Sunday sometimes that believes in this his website is www.truthofGod.com (http://www.truthofGod.com)

You having been a Christian for 30 yrs is rather irrelevant to what I personally have seen..no offense. Perhaps you in your 30 yrs haven't attended as many churches that I have..

Reguarding Paul.. I will give you this scripture about pride right from the horses mouth:

2 Cor 12: 5-10 

 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. 7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Enjoy! :D

And no, I will not be getting with Br. Max on anything. I said I agreed with him because I have seen it myself.. my word is enough you can take it or leave it..

Missy




 

[SeekerofJesus]

I would like to know who considers UPC a cult. I mean the UPC doctrine is completely biblical. Just curious.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 03:04 AM SeekerofJesus said this in Post #71 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=745087#post745087)

I would like to know who considers UPC a cult. I mean the UPC doctrine is completely biblical. Just curious.




A cult is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as this :a  religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

So technically using that definition one could conclude that yes they are a cult but it depends on what someone considers "unconventional" .. Here is their official website : www.upci.org (http://www.upci.org).

On that site it says this of their doctrine:

doctrinal views of the UPCI reflect most of the beliefs of the Holiness-Pentecostal movement, with the exception of the "second work of grace," the historic doctrine of the Trinity, and the traditional Trinitarian formula in water baptism. It embraces the Pentecostal view that speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.

The UPCI holds a fundamental view of the Bible: "The Bible is the only God-given authority which man possesses; therefore all doctrine, faith, hope, and all instructions for the church must be based upon and harmonize with the Bible" (Manual of the United Pentecostal Church, 19). The Bible is the Word of God, and therefore inerrant and infallible. The UPCI rejects all extrabiblical revelations and writings, and views church creeds and articles of faith only as the thinking of men.

The UPCI holds that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works. Faith in Jesus is the means by which a person is justified. At the same time, a sinner must believe the gospel; he is commanded to repent of his sinful life, to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 4:12; 8:12-17; 10:43-48; 19:1-6). Thus the various aspects of faith and obedience work together in God's grace to reconcile us to God.

Personally, I don't think I would label them as a cult..but one can go to their actual website, read what the UPC believe and decide for themselves.

Missy


 

[hobart schmedly]

27th March 2003 at 04:27 PM Miyu said this in Post #58 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=740977#post740977)

I used to attend a United Pentecostal Church...they teach that you must speak in tongues to be saved...they also teach that you must be baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus to be saved and deny the trinity.

Most other pentecostal denominations do not believe these things and consider the UPC a cult.




UPC does have a doctrine called "Jesus Only"... in fact that is what we used to call them when I was a kid... "he is a Jesus only believer..."

However I do not think they are a cult. They are mainly considered a cult by those who consider everyone a cult.

[sbbqb7n16]

27th March 2003 at 05:14 PM look said this in Post #62 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=741278#post741278) Did you know that back in the old days, way back to the time the Ark of the Covenant was hidden by Jeremiah, as the high priest on the Day of Atonement went into the Holy of Holies to make the covering of sins of Israel, he spoke in tongues? He could speak in tongues when he was ministering in his capacity as High Priest, but only on that day when he was in the Holy of Holies.




Where is this at in Scripture? I'm awfully curious... lol :D have a great day!

[Edouard]

Speaking in tongues:

Thank you for the verses of Corinthians 14.

What does a visitor gain from speaking in tongues if no interpreter present?

What does your congregation gain from speaking in tongues if not done from the heart and to God for the purpose of prophesy?

What do we gain from speaking in tongues>?

Speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit. To my understanding there are three types. :) Never really been told what the three types were :)

So here is my view point on scripture. If one is declaring the message of a foreign country, would not God want you to speak the language Read Acts 1 and 2. This is what I believe the purpose of tongues were for.

May the Holy Spirit guide you with your gifts and show you your talents to use to glorify His Kingdom, to bear fruit; rather than arrogant hearts..

Edouard
May the Lord bless you and keep you Amen.
Charis et Erienne be with you.

[All4Christ]

Um....two of the three are glossolalia and xenolalia.....I'm not sure what the third is.

[B]Today at 10:57 PM Edouard said this in Post #75 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=749865#post749865)

Speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit. To my understanding there are three types. :) Never really been told what the three types were :)

[look]

Yesterday at 04:23 PM sbbqb7n16 said this in Post #74 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=749056#post749056)




Where is this at in Scripture? I'm awfully curious... lol :D have a great day!

It is not in the Bible, rather, it is in both Jewish history and the Jewish oral tradition. :)

Also it is said that in Exodus 32:32, there is a long slash in the middle of Moses' prayer as he interceded for the Jewish nation. The reason the slash was put there was because the Jewish scribes could not interpret what Moses said between the begining of the slash and the end of it. It is said that there were several pages of unintelligible Hebrew. So from that moment on, the translators have used the slash, which denotes untranslatable script. It would appear that this episode was the first instance of speaking in tongues. Just think, there had to be tongues in the Old Testament days, simply because of two scriptures from Solomon.

I'll paste the scripture here for you to ponder on; :scratch:

Ecclesiastes 1: 9. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Ecclesiastes 3: 15. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Ta-ta, for now! :)