What are Demons? [Archive] - Christian Forums

If Not For Grace

11th October 2006, 10:22 AM

In the NT there is much talk of demons. Casting them out etc. Exactly what are demons? Where did they come from? Are they Satan's version of Angels? How do they enter humans? How are they removed?

arunma

11th October 2006, 10:42 AM

If Not For Grace

11th October 2006, 11:22 AM

Are there not different types of demons?

"this kind" can only be cast out with prayer and fasting...

Do we have to give them a "legal" entryway or can they just take a person over?

novcncy

11th October 2006, 12:44 PM

Actually, demons are mentioned a few times in the Old Testment as well (Leviticus 17:7, Deuteronomy 32:17, and Psalm 106:37. The popular story of Satan defying God and being cast out of heaven along with a third of the angels isn't actually found anywhere in the Bible, though it is found in the Quran, indicating that this story has some basis in Jewish or early Christian mythology.

Anyway, it's always been my understanding that the demons are angels who do the will of Satan. I can't really find much more information than that in the Scriptures.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:1-9

If Not For Grace

11th October 2006, 12:50 PM

I'm talking about the demons, that Jesus, Peter, Stephen and others found "in" people
like Mary M. "legion", etc. What of these?

Where are they today?

novcncy

11th October 2006, 03:23 PM

I'm talking about the demons, that Jesus, Peter, Stephen and others found "in" people
like Mary M. "legion", etc. What of these?

Where are they today?

Frequently, I fear we lack the discernment to identify the cause, and label them as insane. On the other hand, we become so transfixed with this, and end up obsessing over it. An interesting story is found in Daniel 10, (I think it's 10) about an entity named the Prince of Persia who battles with an angel dispatched from God w/an answer to Daniel's prayer. This battle continues for weeks until Michael comes to the angel's assistance, and as Michael engages the Prince of Persian, it frees up the messenger to come give Daniel the answer to his prayer. This story, and its ramifications, are rather thought provoking.

If Not For Grace

11th October 2006, 03:48 PM

I too fear we label people insane when there are other causes. AND if we deal with spiritual problems from a secular angle, we will be up against insurmountable odds. I work in such an environment and would like to find a way to involve the spiritual aspect.

But I have not had much training or study in the areas of demons.

In fact one of the problems I have with "church" (brick & mortar) is that I was an adult convert and found that the "church" is usually and unfortunately not equipped to deal with such. In fact I really want to explore that area in a thread. Oh Well-- maybe I should pose the demon ?'s in a charismatic thread.

HypoTypoSis

11th October 2006, 03:49 PM

My own thoughts on the matter are that the fallen angels, after cohabitating with women (@ Genesis 6:4) produced a hybrid race known as the Nephilim and who, also, again appeared when the Hebrews reached the Promised Land (@ Numbers 13:33), are the same Nephilim spoken of by the prophet Joel (Joel 2) when alluding to the end times release of the Nephilims' fallen angelic parents spoken of by John (Revelation 9) and, also, spoken of in Jude 1:6-7.

If such be the case, then the fallen angels are presently locked in chains in everlasting darkness in the bottomless pit, aka Tartarus and will, it would seem, one day be released and possibly attempt to repeat their previous acts of cohabitating with women as the Joel and Revelation accounts would appear to indicate.

This leaves the disembodied remains, presumably, the spirits of the Nephilim to roam the unseen earthly physical realm. Earlier historic Hebrew writings mention these disembodied remains, since they were produced upon the earth, were not to be allowed to leave, i.e. not have access to the heavenly realms.

It is also of interesting note that there would seem to be a confirming physical correlation in that fallen angels, being spirit and not of physical origination, have no desire or, at the least, no need for human flesh. However, the disembodied remains of the Nephilim, having their origination in the physical realm do have a need for physical bodies and scripture appears to confirm this with references to their disembodied state being uncomfortable, possibly, even painful and that anything to them is preferable--even inhabiting herds of thousands of swine--despite the fact that their resultant possession of these hogs caused them to apparently go insane and run off a cliff perishing to their ultimate death which, ironically, left those disembodied Nephilim, once again, without physical bodies.

novcncy

11th October 2006, 04:02 PM

the "church" is usually and unfortunately not equipped to deal with such. In fact I really want to explore that area in a thread. Oh Well-- maybe I should pose the demon ?'s in a charismatic thread.

I think you're definitely right about the church, especially in North America (Where I am) is woefully inadequate in dealing with spiritual warfare specifically, and counseling in general. We think they need pills and counseling, when what they need is Jesus Christ to save them, and the Holy Spirit to regenerate their soul. The command, "Ye that are spiritual..." is definitely somebody else...

As far as the charismatic approach, however, I fear that generally it is characterized by an obsession with the supernatural. I have no desire to abuse or paint all charasmatics into a corner, so I will simply leave this as a word of caution.

Maybe you are going to be used by God to help someone in your life now, or at some point in the future. You should keep asking questions, pursuing answers, study the whole word, and sincerely ask God to teach you, and He will.

If Not For Grace

11th October 2006, 04:14 PM

after cohabitating with women (@ Genesis 6:4) produced a hybrid race

If such be the case, then the fallen angels are presently locked in chains in everlasting darkness in the bottomless pit, aka Tartarus and will, it would seem, one day be released and possibly attempt to repeat their previous acts of cohabitating with women as the Joel and Revelation accounts would appear to indicate.

OK-this is sort of what I was alluding to--but I am confused on the time frame.. Was this BF Christ--if so, what of the demons Christ "cast out" and were the ones in the pit--not just a part of the demon population?

HypoTypoSis

11th October 2006, 04:52 PM

OK-this is sort of what I was alluding to--but I am confused on the time frame.. Was this BF Christ--if so, what of the demons Christ "cast out" and were the ones in the pit--not just a part of the demon population?

OK-this is sort of what I was alluding to--but I am confused on the time frame.. Was this BF Christ--if so, what of the demons Christ "cast out" and were the ones in the pit--not just a part of the demon population?

The Genesis 6 account explains the reason for the Flood which was @ 1600 years after Adam's creation.
The Promised Land timeframe was the tail end of the initial Exodus from Egypt.

It took a very short period of time for them to journey from Egypt to Canaan but because of their lack of faith, i. e. their unbelief that with God on their side they could defeat the these giants that were already living in their 'promised land' they were condemned to wander for forty years until all the old unbelieving generation had died and a new generation had grown up and had faith in God and it was they that went in and annihilated the many tribes of Nephilim.

In ch. 15:18-21 they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples : "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Gen. 15:19-21; cp. Ex. 3:8, 17; 23:23. Deut. 7; 20:17. Josh. 12:8).

These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deut. 20:17. Josh. 3:10). But Israel failed in this (Josh. 13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:18. Judg. 1:19, 20, 28, 29, 30-36; 2:1-5; 3:1-7); and we known not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology.

As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from on Anak which came of the Nephilim (Num. 13:23), and Rephaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them. From Deut. 2:10, they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (v. 20, 21) and Avim, &c.
As Rephaim they were well known, and are often mentioned : but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These Rephaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isa. 26:14 (where the proper name is rendered "deceased," and v. 19, where it is rendered "the dead"). It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:5. Ps. 88:10. Prov. 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. Isa. 14:8; 26:19). It is rendered "deceased" in Isa. 26:14.
It is retained as a proper name "Rephaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Gen. 14:5; 15:20. Josh. 12:15 (marg.). 2Sam. 5:18, 22; 23:13.& b31 nbsp; 1Chron. 11:15; 14:9; 20:4 (marg.). Isa. 17:5. In all other places it is rendered "giants", Gen. 6:4; Num. 23:33, where it is Nephilim; and Job 16:14, where it is gibbor.-EWB (http://www.levendwater.org)

The Joel and Revelation accounts are prophetic still to occur. The Jude account was in hindsight, quoting from the Book of Enoch, though it was then present in its occurrence as it is still today.

Fallen angels are in the pit. Spirits of Nephilim would appear to be what are referred to as demons and free to roam the unseen earthly and, also, possess humans.

Whether or not there are any 'unchained and not in the darkness of the pit' fallen angels scripture does not appear to give us any definitive answers to. Although, from the accounts in scripture that are given regarding 'demons' these do appear to be the spirits of Nephilim for the reasonings and the correlative scriptures already stated.

arunma

11th October 2006, 05:45 PM

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:1-9

This, and the text from Isaiah 14 (about the taunt against the King of Babylon) are the two "proof texts" that are generally used. But keep in mind that the story of Satan's fall is ingrained into the church rather deeply. Consider this: if you were to read this passage from the book of Revelation with absolutely no knowledge of the story of Satan's fall, then how would you interpret it?

There's an elder at my church who proposes that this passage, and the one about the King of Babylon, refer to a future casting out of Satan from heaven. I'm not trying to preclude the very possibility that these texts refer to Satan's fall. But as my physics professor would say, it isn't "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer upon initial inspection."

JPPT1974

11th October 2006, 08:45 PM

OK-this is sort of what I was alluding to--but I am confused on the time frame.. Was this BF Christ--if so, what of the demons Christ "cast out" and were the ones in the pit--not just a part of the demon population?

I thought Christ cast out demons
As well as demons in people's bodies
For they are from the devil and from
Hell that demons come from.

Matthan

11th October 2006, 09:11 PM

arunma

12th October 2006, 12:44 AM

Actually demons are not mentioned at all in the Old Testament. You mentioned Lev.17:7: "the word "devil" is the translation of the Hebrew sair, meaning a "goat" or "satyr" (Isa. 13:21; 34:14), alluding to the wood-daemons, the objects of idolatrous worship among the heathen."

In Deut. 32:17 and Ps. 106:37 it is the translation of Hebrew shed, meaning lord, and idol, regarded by the Jews as a "demon," as the word is rendered in the Revised Version.

In the narratives of the Gospels regarding the "casting out of devils" a different Greek word (daimon) is used. In the time of our Lord there were frequent cases of demoniacal possession (Matt. 12:25-30; Mark 5:1-20; Luke 4:35; 10:18, etc.).

Matthan

Well, if you know any Hebrew, then you've certainly got more expertise than me. I mentioned the three verses from the Old Testament because the King James, the ESV, and a couple other translations render it this way. The commentaries I read on these verses also discuss the issue of demons. But then, I don't know any Hebrew, and even my knowledge of Koine Greek is severely limited.

HypoTypoSis

12th October 2006, 01:46 AM

There would appear five instances, two in the OT and two in the NT where, "evil spirit(s)" are used.

It is also interesting that of the NT occurrences all are recorded by Luke.

Judges 9:22-24, "When Abimelech had reigned three years over Israel, Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren."

1 Samuel 16:14, "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him."

1 Samuel 16:15, "And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee."

1 Samuel 16:16, "Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well."

1 Samuel 16:23, "And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

1 Samuel 18:10, "And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand."

1 Samuel 19:9, "And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand."

Luke 7:21, "And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight."

Luke 8:1-3, "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance."

Acts 19:11-12, "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them."

Acts 19:13, "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth."

Acts 19:15, "And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?"

Acts 19:16, "And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

"Devils", in the plural, are found 48 times in the bible; 4 times in the OT and 44 times in the NT.

It is of interesting note that the four times in the OT they all refer to making sacrifices to devils.

Of the 44 instances in the NT,

I Cor twice
I Tim once
James once
Rev thrice

Of the 37 NT usages remaining,

Matt - 11 times - 4 instances
Mark - 10 times - 5 instances
Luke - 16 times - 7 instances

Total number of instances of 'evil spirit(s)' in the bible: 5
Total number instances of 'devils' in the bible: 23
TOTAL instances of both: 28

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the singular form, devil, there are 57 verses, all in the NT. On first glance, it appears that there are in:

Matt - 8 instances/ 12 times
Mark - 2 instances/ 6 times
Luke - 5 instances/ 12 times

Acts - 2 instances 2 times
Ephesians - 2 instances 2 times
I Tim - 1 instances 2 times
2 Tim - 1 instances
Heb - 1 instances
James - 1 instances
I Peter - 1 instances
I John - 1 instances 2 times
Jude - 1 instances
Rev - 3 instances 5 times

Cautionary Note: Before adding these (singular: devil)into the list of "demons" and "evil spirits" occurrences it will first be necessary to separate out which refer to Satan and which do not.

Most, in the gospels, do appear to refer to Satan in the instance of our Lord's temptation in the wilderness.

PETE_

12th October 2006, 06:22 AM

DEMON POSSESSION
Definition. Charles Ryrie defines demon possession as

A demon residing in a person, exerting direct control and influence over that person, with certain derangement of mind and/or body. Demon possession is to be distinguished from demon influence or demon activity in relation to a person. The work of the demon in the latter is from the outside; in demon possession it is from within. By this definition a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon since he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However, a believer can be the target of demonic activity to such an extent that he may give the appearance of demon possession.22 (http://www.christianforums.com/t3899325&page=2#_ftn1)

Fact of demon possession. There was a great outbreak of demon activity and demon possession during Christ’s sojourn on earth, no doubt in opposition to His Messiahship. The gospels abound with accounts of demon possessed people (Matt. 4:24; 8:16, 28, 33; 12:22; 15:22; Mark 1:32; 5:15, 16, 18; Luke 8:36; John 10:21). Leaders in the early church such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian make reference to demon possession as does the Shepherd of Hermas.
Nature of demon possession.23 (http://www.christianforums.com/t3899325&page=2#_ftn2) Demon possession evidences itself by a change in moral character and spiritual disposition. Frequently a different voice, a different educational level, or even a foreign language will reflect a difference in the affected person’s personality. The demons speaking through the man immediately recognized who Christ was (Mark 1:23–24), which meant he had supernatural knowledge and intellectual power. Another symptom of demon possession was exhibited by the man in the country of the Gerasenes with his supernatural physical strength and ability to break shackles and chains (Mark 5:3–4).
. The Moody handbook of theology. Moody Press: Chicago, Ill.

PETE_

12th October 2006, 06:25 AM

Fallen but unconfined angels. This view, which is preferable, is held by Hodge, Strong, Morgan, Gaebelein, Unger, and others. It teaches that when Lucifer rebelled against God he fell from his place of prominence and led with him a host of lower-ranking angels. Lucifer, now called Satan, is the “ruler of demons” (Matt. 12:24). Matthew 25:41 also refers to “the devil and his angels,” which would refer to demons; similarly, Revelation 12:7 mentions “the dragon and his angels.”
Scripture indicates there are two groups of fallen angels. One group is the demons who are free and active in the world. Other fallen angels are bound in confinement. Some are mentioned as being confined to tartarus, (translated “hell” in 2 Pet. 2:4); they are confined because of some enormous sin (some relate this to Genesis 6 in suggesting the “sons of God” were angels). Jude 6 may refer to the same confinement. Another group of fallen angels are kept confined in the pit (Luke 8:31; Rev. 9:2). They were “apparently too depraved and harmful to be allowed to roam upon the earth.”19 (http://www.christianforums.com/t3899325-what-are-demons.html#_ftn1) Revelation 9 indicates these demons will be released from confinement during the Tribulation to afflict people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (Rev. 9:3–11).

Matthan

12th October 2006, 08:30 AM

Did you notice that the "evil spirit" mentioned in the OT, in every instance, was "from" God. Therefore that spirit could not possibly have been a "fallen" angel or demon, but a spirit sent from God to do His bidding towards a human.

Matthan

novcncy

12th October 2006, 09:34 AM

This, and the text from Isaiah 14 (about the taunt against the King of Babylon) are the two "proof texts" that are generally used. But keep in mind that the story of Satan's fall is ingrained into the church rather deeply. Consider this: if you were to read this passage from the book of Revelation with absolutely no knowledge of the story of Satan's fall, then how would you interpret it?

There's an elder at my church who proposes that this passage, and the one about the King of Babylon, refer to a future casting out of Satan from heaven. I'm not trying to preclude the very possibility that these texts refer to Satan's fall. But as my physics professor would say, it isn't "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer upon initial inspection."

I absolutely agree with the possibility that this war in heaven could be in the future...In fact, I think that it is. We see from Job that Satan enters heaven and talks to God, a rather intersting prospect, but clearly not a war.....yet.

In terms of this discussion, the main thing I think this passage shows is that the angels who are loyal to Satan are a third of the host of heaven. I suppose it is possible that all the angels have not made their switch in allegiances just yet....it's an interesting thing to think about, to be sure. As far as interpreting Revelation.......I'm leaving that one alone. ;)

Matthan

13th October 2006, 08:48 AM

The "war" in heaven has already happened, and we can be sure of that fact. How can we be sure? Because Jesus stated clearly that he observed (past tense) satan fall from heaven as a bolt of lightning (see Luke 10:18)

Furthermore, while there is no indication at all (except for prophecies of future events) that satan was a fallen angel in the OT, every single reference to satan in the NT is of him as a major sinner (from his tempting of Christ to he being the "god" of this world).

That's why more and more bible scholars are leaning towards his fall occurring sometime between the testaments. They believe God's timing for the NT required satan's fall prior to Christ's arrival. Why is this? Because of the new covenant that God would establish with mankind. Man has the ability of free will, and he needed a clear choice between good and evil. Man must choose Christ's goodness over satan's evil pleasures and lies.

Hey, it's just my opinion.

Matthan

Matthan

13th October 2006, 08:50 AM

Just another thought. Can anyone explain no demons in the OT but lots of demons in the NT?

Matthan

novcncy

13th October 2006, 09:35 AM

HypoTypoSis

13th October 2006, 11:44 AM

There has been and still is a war in heaven as on earth. Scripture has explained to us the demonic forces have divided up the earth into governmental-like divisions that are ruled by various demonic entities.

If Not For Grace

13th October 2006, 02:46 PM

holdon

13th October 2006, 03:06 PM

If Not For Grace

13th October 2006, 03:10 PM

In this text those possessed by demons are carefully distinguished from those with other diseases: lunatics, paralytics.
They are not the same. Some demons may cause different disorders, but not all disorders are because of demons

Excellent point..

But still then where are those demons--free roaming or confined in some pit?

holdon

13th October 2006, 03:45 PM

Excellent point..

But still then where are those demons--free roaming or confined in some pit?

Some are free. Some are confined.

Here is some more from Morrish bible dictionary:

Demon
δαιμόνιον, δαίμων. It is to be regretted that the translators of the A.V. did not use the word 'demon' where these words occur instead of 'devil,' for which there is another Greek word, διάβολος, signifying 'accuser.' This latter word is used only in the singular, referring to the devil — Satan; but there are many demons. Philosophers spoke of demons quite differently from the way they are represented in scripture. Thus Plato says, "Every demon is a middle being between God and the mortal. God is not approached immediately by man, but all the commerce and intercourse between gods and men is performed by the mediation of demons." This was a device of Satan, that God could be worshipped through the agency of demons or demi-gods. In a similarway the Roman Catholics pray to the Virgin and the saints to intercede for them. Scripture makes it plain that the demons were evil spirits: cf. Rev. 16: 13, 14.
Scripture also shows that idolatry was essentially demon-worship, the idol itself being nothing. "They sacrificed unto demons (shed)not unto God," Deut. 32: 17; 1 Cor. 10: 19, 20; "they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto demons (sair)." Lev. 17: 7; Rev. 9: 20. Jeroboam had fallen so low as to have ordained priests for the demons (sair) and for the calves which he had made, 2 Chr. 11: 15; and some had "sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons (shed)."* Ps. 106: 37. The things worshipped may have been unseen objects, or they may have had some mystical representation, or may have been mere idols; but behind all these were real beings, evil, unclean spirits; so that it was morally impossible to have fellowship with the Lord Jesus and with these demons. 1 Cor. 10: 19-21.

* The Hebrew word shed, though traced from the word 'lord,' properly signifies "a destroyer, extirpator, a violent one; hence metaphorically a mischievous demon." — Fürst. It occurs only in the above two passages. Sair signifies 'rough, hairy,' and specially a he-goat: hence "a goat-shaped deity, which was idolatrously worshipped . . . . It was believed that such hostile beings inhabited the deserts and woods (Isa. 13: 21; Isa. 34: 14), and that they mustbe appeased by divine worship'. — Fürst.

The evil spirits that possessed so many persons when the Lord was on earth were demons, and from the instances given we learn much respecting them. The Pharisees said that the Lord cast out demons by Beelzebub the prince of demons. The Lord interpreted this to mean 'Satan casting out Satan;' by which we learn that the demons were the agents of Satan; and that Satan as a strong man had to be bound before his kingdom could be assailed. Matt. 12: 24-29. The demons also were strong ones, by the way they handled those they possessed, and by one overcoming seven men and making them flee out of the house naked and wounded. Acts 19: 16. We know also that they were intelligent beings; for they knew the Lord Jesus and bowed at once to His authority. They also knew that punishment awaited them: for some asked if the Lord had come to torment them before the time. Matt. 8: 29.
It must not be supposed that demon-agency has ceased: the exhortation is, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4: 1. With this agrees the declaration that "in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons." 1 Tim. 4: 1. Spiritualists and Theosophists carry on intercourse with such, and are taught by them. In a future day also, when God will be pouring out His judgements on the earth, men will not repent, but will worship demons and all sorts of idols. Rev. 9: 20. The spirits of demons also, by working miracles, will gather the kings of the earth together to the battle of that great day of Almighty God. Rev. 16: 14. And mystical Babylon will become "the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Rev. 18: 2. The world and the professing church are evidently ripening for these things; and some, under the plea of investigating phenomena, are unconsciously having to do with the wicked spirits themselves!

Demoniacs.
This word is used to describe men who were possessed by demons, as revealed in scripture. In the N.T. those 'possessed' by demons were certainly under the control of the demons, even to casting them into the fire and into the water.
It has been argued that the persons said to be possessed were really lunatics, who imagined they were possessed; and to meet that fancy the Lord spoke to the supposed spirit and told it to come out! But this is simply an effort to deny the power of Satan and his emissaries over man, and also God's power in the miracles. The Lord spoke of the casting out of demons when he was not speaking to those possessed. The demons also knew the Lord to be the Son of God, answered Him, asked permission to go into the herd of swine, and feared he had come to punish them before the time. Those who were lunatics are mentioned along with, and as different from, those possessed with demons. Matt. 4: 24. It is true that the father of a lad who was possessed by a demon called him a lunatic, and said the disciples could not cure him, in Matt. 17: 14-16; but in Mark 9: 17 he said his son had a dumb spirit, and in Luke 9: 39 'a spirit taketh him.' It was clearly a case of possession: the Lord rebuked the demon, and it departed from him.
In all cases the relief was experienced immediately the demon was expelled; the words used are too explicit to mean aught else than that the persons were possessed, and that the wicked spirits were cast out. The case of Judas Iscariot was somewhat different, inasmuch as it was Satan himself that entered into that wretched man. Luke 22: 3. Here it was more than the mere question of power over man, it was the Adversary standing up against Christ.
Besides the permanent possession of men, there was the unclean spirit of lying prophecy. In the O.T. we have a remarkable instance of a spirit influencing 400 prophets. Ahab was to be enticed to go to war, and a spirit said he would accomplish it. He would go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. "Now therefore," said Micaiah, "behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee." 2 Chr. 18: 20-22. We do not know the nature of this spirit, nor how he influenced the prophets.

If Not For Grace

13th October 2006, 04:01 PM

The case of Judas Iscariot was somewhat different, inasmuch as it was Satan himself that entered into that wretched man. Luke 22: 3. Here it was more than the mere question of power over man, it was the Adversary standing up against Christ.

Can then this occur or demon possession without the permission of the human?

Or is it a state of life that the person is in that will allow the over taking of the human?

Rephrased: Must there be a form of "legal entry" allowed by the human?

holdon

13th October 2006, 04:15 PM

Can then this occur or demon possession without the permission of the human?

Or is it a state of life that the person is in that will allow the over taking of the human?

Rephrased: Must there be a form of "legal entry" allowed by the human?

I don't know.

I would think the second possibility is true.
Perhaps I should remark here that the word "possession" is added for English readers, but it is not in the Greek. There the word is something like "demonized". Someone "demon-possessed", is someone "demonized".

GordonSlocum

13th October 2006, 04:30 PM

I don't recall any passage where a believer is possessed. The idea of oppression seems reasonable because it would be in line with the warning Scripture gives to put on the whole armor of God. Satan is more interested in defeating Believers and this perhaps can be tagged as oppression synonymously speaking.

HypoTypoSis

13th October 2006, 05:04 PM

So it the demons Christ cast out are not the ones in the "pit", is it possible for people to be demon possessed today?

or is it possible that the "demon possessed" of Christ's day were just had chemical imbalances that He restored or healed..if so what about the pigs?

The herd of swine died and the demons were once again released to wander seeking fleshy hosts.

Demons are free to roam today as they always have been.

Angels are another story.

Jude 1:6, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

These evil angels that are locked in everlasting chains in darkness are the same...

Genesis 6:2 ...sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

and these unions of evil angels and earthly women produced...

Genesis 6:4 ...giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

This was the reason for the Flood for...

Genesis 6:5 ...GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

In the above Gen 6:4 verse we see the phrase, "and also after that", these were the same giants, whole races and tribes, that Israel spent so much time fighting and destroying to keep the human line pure and untainted for the coming King and Mesiah; it is from these that Goliath, his brother, Og, king of Bashan and many more came from.

The angels that are locked in everlasting chains in darkness are the evil angels that produced the Nephilim race of giants; they have been imprisoned to prevent them from doing this still.

In the following verses we see the fallen angels that have not been locked in everlasting chains in darkness have divided up the earth so each have a portion to rule:

Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

From the first day that Daniel began to pray God sent this angel to deliver a message.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

But this angel could not get from the heavenlies to the earth where Daniel was because the evil angel, i.e. the prince of Persia prevented him for 3 weeks until the Archangel Michael came to help him open the "doorway" so he could get to Daniel.

Daniel 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

Having delivered his message from God the angel now found it expedient to hurry back for Michael held the door open for his return and, as he explained, once he was gone another evil angel, the prince of Grecia, would come to help the prince of Persia.

We see here an almost governmental if not miltary sort of structure that the evil angels have arranged over the earth. We also see there is an ongoing battle between the forces of God and the forces of Satan. It is also of interesting note that we see in one of those rare incidents in scripture where the veil between this physical world and the spiritual world is lifted and for a brief moment we see what is on the other side.

The 2nd chapter of the book of the prophet Joel speaks of an endtimes coming, a return, of these giant Nephilim:

Joel 2:2 ...a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Joel 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Joel 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

Joel 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

Joel 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

Joel 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

Joel 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

We see a remarkable resemblence between Joel's prophecy and John's Revelation when Satan releases the angels locked in everlasting chains in the darkness of the bottomless pit:

Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

Revelation 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

Revelation 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

Revelation 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Matthan

13th October 2006, 07:33 PM

I've always been taught that, once a person reaches the age of reason and can not only tell the difference between right and wrong but degrees of right and wrong, that person becomes potential fodder for demonic possession. However, if that person is filled with the Holy Spirit, no demon can ever bother him or her. We Christians are protected from satan's forces in every way, even to the point we cannot be fooled by his finest deceit. The Holy Ghost within us simply will not allow that to happen.

Matthan

chris777

14th October 2006, 12:29 AM

First off, I am familiar with all of the "psychological" suppositions about demons and such, and after Researching psychiatry, I have come to the conclusion it is abomination.
That being said.
I am going to open up about a problem I personally have had with demons.
There was a time when I was skeptical I didn't believe in any of this, and if it werent for my direct experience with it, I wouldnt believe it either.
But here Goes . I have had a "spirit guide " in the past hindering my initial curiocity about christianity. I highly suspect that it could be either the same demonic being, that came to mohammed, and joseph smith, or that it used the same tactics, again with our limited knoweldge I just dont know, I do know it attempted to persuade me that the bible was "tainted" and had errors, to make a long story short, Eventually I discerned it as false, by testing it in comparison to the scriptures. Then I had a different sort of attack since that time.
I was apparently attacked by a succubus, during my sleep, it embraced me and kissed me and durig the kiss, it was as if a secondary mouth came down around my lips and bit down, I awoke sittig up partialy in bed still in the embrace. (this happened once)
Then I was attacked again in a different way, and this one seems to continue to this day, though it has been several weeks, since my last attack.
This one seems to occur when faling asleep or waking ,and is similar to what psychologist call "sleep paralasis" It also seems similar to what I have heard termed "shadow people" in conspiratorial/ spiritual circles (secular).
They grap me by my arms, and I am paralized to move, and I have felt myself being pulled away from my bed, once it was as if they were trying to pul me down between the headboard and matress, and other times they try to "take me away" but I don't know where, there was no communication, between us, other than me attempting to rebuke them in vain in Jesus name. they have no discernable form, and are basically shadows in appaearance, with no discernable features , and there are at least 2 of them possibly 3. I have seen too many similar attacks from my internet research, to buy the garbage "psychological" explanation. These are world wide multi culture/religious experiences. So I know its not something I have been influenced by. Given the modern churches abandonment of the scriptures in favor of "science" I have been reluctant to speak of this issue to anyone, only a handfull of people that know me in person know. Granted I have not yet been baptized, so I do not know if that would make a difference. I do not know what to do, now granted at this point i have lost track of the number of attacks, and its more of an annoyance than anything, but it happens. I have also wondered about possession, and such myself. Which is one of my main concerns with the attacks.
I finally mentioned it to my pastor after he said he had cast them out before, he gave me a study guide to a book, tat he wanted me to read first, I am still waiting on the book. . He said we would talk about it more after I read the book.
Does anyone know anything about this? and or how to fight them?

HypoTypoSis

14th October 2006, 04:12 AM

Does anyone know anything about this?

Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Much prayer and much fasting. Now, take this verse and this advice back to your pastor and keep it within the proper venue wherein it best should remain.

and or how to fight them?

You are not 'fighting', per se; you are expelling (if such even be the case), cleansing the mind and body--and filling it, instead, with the word and wisdom of God.

Nowhere are we commanded to 'take on' the evil forces offensively; ours, in this sense, is defensive--we are commanded to flee evil.

Now, then, back to the pastor.

Atlantians

14th October 2006, 04:20 AM

Are there not different types of demons?

"this kind" can only be cast out with prayer and fasting...

Do we have to give them a "legal" entryway or can they just take a person over?
Certain demons do certain things I am sure.
And they have different authorities I am sure.

Yes a legal entry is required.

And that "this kind" statement was situational, not based on the demon in question.

It was a deep situation, involving more than just a demon hyper-influenced person.
So more care was needed.

chris777

14th October 2006, 09:51 PM

Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Much prayer and much fasting. Now, take this verse and this advice back to your pastor and keep it within the proper venue wherein it best should remain.
what did you mean by this?

You are not 'fighting', per se; you are expelling (if such even be the case), cleansing the mind and body--and filling it, instead, with the word and wisdom of God.

Nowhere are we commanded to 'take on' the evil forces offensively; ours, in this sense, is defensive--we are commanded to flee evil.

Now, then, back to the pastor.

I didn't mean it in an offensive sense I just want the attacks to stop is all.

HypoTypoSis

15th October 2006, 04:08 PM

It is questionable, highly so, that an indwelt by the Holy Spirit believer in Christ could be possessed; therefore, the only influences possible are through thought for that, as scripture affirms, is where the battlefield truly is, in the mind. Satan can influence us in only one way, through our relationships be it ourselves, with our God and Saviour, our families, our church family, our co-workers, our friends in society, etc. And this is accomplished through deceptions, delusions and lies within our own mind and thinking. Our biggest failure regarding Satan is not in giving him too much credit for his superior to mortal capabilities but in not giving him enough credit. We are not commanded to war with him, nor are we to call upon the Lord to give us the strength to war against him, rather, we are exhorted to flee the devil, run from evil, seeking refuge in the Lord. There is truth in the old adage, those that play with fire get burned. Leave the fire fighting to the firefighters and in this case the firefighter is our Lord, Jesus Christ, and He will put out the fire in His own right and proper time--of the end.

HypoTypoSis

16th October 2006, 12:49 AM

Demonic activity takes various forms, as indicated in Scripture and illustrated in modern literature. Perhaps in sequential order of severity and often of progression, demonic activity takes these forms:

demonic impression, often through expression
demonic repression, both by putting down, the hindering of good, and the forcing of ideas or impulses into the subconscious
demonic obsession, whereby the victim is preoccupied with the unholy and/or unwholesome and, in some cases, the Evil One himself
demonic depression
demonic oppression, just short of
demonic possessionThese forms or stages of demonic activity involve all the faculties of man, but each is directed toward particular faculties. -from Demon Possession, edited by John Warwick Montgomery, the published volume being the result of A Medical Historical, Anthropological and Theological Symposium's papers presented at the University of Notre Dame, January 8-11, 1975 under the auspices of the Christian Medical Association.

If Not For Grace

16th October 2006, 10:30 AM

We Christians are protected from satan's forces in every way, even to the point we cannot be fooled by his finest deceit. The Holy Ghost within us simply will not allow that to happen.

It is questionable, highly so, that an indwelt by the Holy Spirit believer in Christ could be possessed;

Why are believers exempt? If that "Filled w/the spirit" thing applies, would we not all be free of sin? Can we not all be weak? What was the point of being tested if it is not to reflect our strength in faith? The Holy Spirit, convicts me..it does not prevent me..

Is that not right?

What about Saul, Judas, and others--were they never believers Judas maybe, but Saul (annointed) lost favor, When I am weak do I not open myself to such?

christian73

16th October 2006, 11:55 AM

In the NT there is much talk of demons. Casting them out etc. Exactly what are demons? Where did they come from? Are they Satan's version of Angels? How do they enter humans? How are they removed?
Demons are satan's angels. I don't know the answer to your other questions though, except that they are removed by casting them out in the name of Jesus..

HypoTypoSis

16th October 2006, 12:34 PM

Why are believers exempt?

The reference was to possession, not external influences. It owuld not appear possible the Holy Spirit could indwell a vessel with an evil demon. However, all of the natural order are subject to evil and sinful thoughts and urges.

If that "Filled w/the spirit" thing applies, would we not all be free of sin?

Nope. And our sinful thoughts and urges prove it so.

Can we not all be weak?

Absolutely, indeed, we all are.

What was the point of being tested if it is not to reflect our strength in faith?

was? tested? reflect our strength? in faith? Not sure what all this is or where you're getting it from but you're going to have to explain with more clarity for as it is worded it sounds like its origins are elsewhere-wherever that is.

The Holy Spirit, convicts me..it does not prevent me..

COnvicets, yes, thus you have the evidence of the natural order's innate sin and evil.

"does not prevent you"-is evidence of a will-a desire to do evil, again, proof.

When I am weak do I not open myself to such?

To influence, yes, but not of necessity possession.

HypoTypoSis

16th October 2006, 12:47 PM

Demons are satan's angels.

From what I can see they may well not be 'angels' but another order of evil beings.

they are removed by casting them out in the name of Jesus..

According to their adherents this works only if you are a Pentecostal, Catholic priest or Appalachian (also, Pentecostal) snake handing church goer. ;)

All others do it the old fashioned tried and true 'hard' way and flee the devil and his evil and, also, in the process, pray.

99.99% of those claiming such power, abilties and capabilities know not wherein they speak, are not at all qualified and wouldn't know a possessed individual from someone in the normal throes of humankind's typical phases and stages of simply being emotionally distraught.

They are also the ones that holler the loudest they know the most and best of how to deal with such claiming their faith is so great they can accomplish these things yet they still cannot toss a mountain into the sea proving they have not the faith of a mustard seed.

JPPT1974

16th October 2006, 03:12 PM

When we cast them out in the name
Of Jesus, then the demons disappear in
Our lives.

HypoTypoSis

16th October 2006, 10:39 PM

When we cast them out in the name
Of Jesus, then the demons disappear in
Our lives.

That's what Pentecostals and televangelists would have you believe so you send them more money. But neither they or those sending in their hard earned money are capable of such. There is much more involved there than simply mouthing words. Re-read my previous posts. Commanding and expelling are offensive tactics-that job belongs to the Lord and His Army in the proper place and time, we are instructed to be defensive in our approach. A big mistake many make is assuming everything Jesus spoke to His Disciples were/are instructions for us today. Not so.

novcncy

17th October 2006, 05:40 AM

That's what Pentecostals and televangelists would have you believe so you send them more money. But neither they or those sending in their hard earned money are capable of such. There is much more involved there than simply mouthing words. Re-read my previous posts. Commanding and expelling are offensive tactics-that job belongs to the Lord and His Army in the proper place and time, we are instructed to be defensive in our approach. A big mistake many make is assuming everything Jesus spoke to His Disciples were/are instructions for us today. Not so.
This post brings to mind the seven brothers in Acts who thought that they could cast out demons in the name of Christ. The possessed person (demon) responded with "Jesus I know, and Paul i know, but who are you?" (my paraphrase) and then proceeded to whup up on them......I've got to look that passage up....

chris777

17th October 2006, 11:31 PM

HypoTypoSis

18th October 2006, 01:38 AM

I am probably going to come off as an idiot, , but could you reiterate your advice as to how I should address my situation, there were several comments that went over my head, I do not think I am possessed, I am being attacked. And Just don't know how to deal with the situation.
Have you brought this matter to the attention of your pastor or counselor? Always go with the least invasive approach first and that dictates looking into emotional health issues and that can neither be ascertained or cured on an internet messageboard nor can you properly diagnose yourself anymore than you can "physician, heal thyself". So, see a real life pastor or mental health care professional.

novcncy

18th October 2006, 05:10 AM

real life pastor or mental health care professional.

Well those two are about as opposite as black and white. A mental health care professional will label you with some disorder if you tell him/her about this, and give you pills or therapy or something else just as utterly useless. I hope you have a good pastor, who loves you, and will help you get through this, and will do it from the scriptures.

HypoTypoSis

18th October 2006, 07:18 PM

So God is capable of 'poof!' curing anyone of anything that asks for the cure but is not capable of curing people through doctors and health care professionals so why are there so many 'Christians' walking around praying for cures receiving none still sick and still dying?

chris777

18th October 2006, 11:34 PM

[quote=HypoTypoSis;28036542]Have you brought this matter to the attention of your pastor or counselor? As I stated earlier, yes I have after I heard him mention he had cast out demons before. He ended up telling me to read a book "the bondage breaker" by neil t. anderson, Which he gave me a copy of the study guide, but the book itself is on backorder.
Always go with the least invasive approach first and that dictates looking into emotional health issues and that can neither be ascertained or cured on an internet messageboard nor can you properly diagnose yourself anymore than you can "physician, heal thyself". So, see a real life pastor or mental health care professional.
I have had experience with the fraud that is called mental health in the past, They do not believe in demons, nor anything else of the scriptures, I asked online, from the sense of anonimity, sinch the church is so deeply ingrained with these false psychiatric modes of thought, over scripture. This is some sort of spiritual attack, I was wanting to know if anyone had any experience or knoledge of it, as other than the scriptures, You dont hear too many people speaking about it, in "real life" as they will be labled loony. I do not know exactly what has been attacking me, but I know it is not a "chemical imbalance"

Well those two are about as opposite as black and white. A mental health care professional will label you with some disorder if you tell him/her about this, and give you pills or therapy or something else just as utterly useless. I hope you have a good pastor, who loves you, and will help you get through this, and will do it from the scriptures.
I hope so too, I am a bit cautious, as he has endorsed a few people, and trains of though I do not see lining up scripturally, yet his heart does seem to be in this. But like you were saying so many christians are decieved with this ear scratching psychobabble, that they eat it up without investigating it themselves.

So God is capable of 'poof!' curing anyone of anything that asks for the cure but is not capable of curing people through doctors and health care professionals so why are there so many 'Christians' walking around praying for cures receiving none still sick and still dying? If it is his will sure, My issue is not everything from the "medical" profession is valid, I have past experience with "mental health" care with my ex wife and following our divorce, I bought into all that garbage , and popped all sorts of pills, but a pill is only a socially acceptable substitution for drinking, or doing drugs, many psychologist even call it "self medication" as if it is a treatment, when in fact it is delusion, and not facing or dealing with the problems at hand. It is a very secilar, and in many cases actually satanic mode of thinking. Look into the psychological super stars, freud, and jung, neither believed things that lined up with gods word, yet the vast majority of psychology is founded on the sand that is their work.

HypoTypoSis

19th October 2006, 12:41 AM

If it is his will
Wrong premise. Win, lose or draw it's a blame game that totally and completely seeks to absolve the individual of all responsibility of his own actions and choices.

HypoTypoSis

19th October 2006, 12:44 AM

not facing or dealing with the problems at hand
Back to the blame game again. Nothing here demonic. Just a matter of accepting responsibility for actions and choices.

HypoTypoSis

19th October 2006, 12:52 AM

I have past experience with "mental health" care
popped all sorts of pills
It is often quite painful facing repressed issues but it is necessary. Refusing to face these issues looking elsewhere to point the blame finger-even at demons-is not the way to face personal problems but it is an illbegotten means by which to allow control issues to foment and grow yet in the end that controlling personality will only try to control the world around by changing it to conform thereby lessening the pain which, in the end will only grow stronger and worse.

chris777

19th October 2006, 01:55 AM

Are you even reading my post?

Wrong premise. Win, lose or draw it's a blame game that totally and completely seeks to absolve the individual of all responsibility of his own actions and choices.
That was my point the lord corrects us, and sometimes we are punished for our actions, though I did not explicitly state that.

Back to the blame game again. Nothing here demonic. Just a matter of accepting responsibility for actions and choices.. I don't know if you are reading my post wrong, or I am reading yours wrong. But I am not blaming anyone or anything.
I did say I have been attacked, by demons, or something, and that it is absolutely not a "mental health issue" thats it.

It is often quite painful facing repressed issues but it is necessary. Refusing to face these issues looking elsewhere to point the blame finger-even at demons-is not the way to face personal problems but it is an illbegotten means by which to allow control issues to foment and grow yet in the end that controlling personality will only try to control the world around by changing it to conform thereby lessening the pain which, in the end will only grow stronger and worse.
You are possibly reading too much into my replies, I stated my experience with mental health and psychiatry, to demonstrate I am familiar with it, not to pass the buck or whatever, also as a warning that it is based in both atheistic humanism, as well as a chunk of the occult. as for repressed? where on earth did you get that from?
and again I am not out to attack anything, I just want these things to leave me alone. period. I don't know what they are attacking, it has no ryme or reason that I am aware of, do you have any beneficial advice, or not? If not thats fine, but you are apparently misunderstanding my posts. And as I have stated, I dont entirely understand some of your early replies.

HypoTypoSis

19th October 2006, 02:16 AM

I did say I have been attacked, by demons, or something
Your evidence, i.e. proof of this?

novcncy

19th October 2006, 08:25 AM

chris777

19th October 2006, 09:57 AM

Your evidence, i.e. proof of this?
I can describe what I have experienced personally other than that I have no evidence, so either you believe me or you don't .

I did make several drawings , and notebooks with "wisdom" from the demonic spirit guide that led me astray before I became grounded in the scriptures, other than That I don't know what to tell you.

If Not For Grace

19th October 2006, 11:44 AM

So I'm not saying that ALL mental health issues are spiritual, but I am of the opinion that most of them are.

Not only Mental Health, but Physical as well are based on lack of spiritual and other knowledge long pointed out in scripture.

Take Obesity, and Diet,--If we eat (not that we are commanded to) as is told is good for us. If we live, work, as we are told is good for us to, if we love, marry and forgive and raise children as we are told we should---we would all be healthier all the way round.

I suggest ultimately everything is a spiritual matter.

If Not For Grace

19th October 2006, 11:47 AM

I can describe what I have experienced personally

Tell me how you gained victory from it.

InDeoHonorium2

19th October 2006, 12:04 PM

So do you believe in Demons as actual entities? That is, do they have a corporeal form ? Or are they simply Ideals?
What is your opinion........

JPPT1974

19th October 2006, 05:07 PM

When I think also of demons I think
Of stuff like witchcraft or from Harry Potter.

chris777

19th October 2006, 07:10 PM

Not only Mental Health, but Physical as well are based on lack of spiritual and other knowledge long pointed out in scripture.

Take Obesity, and Diet,--If we eat (not that we are commanded to) as is told is good for us. If we live, work, as we are told is good for us to, if we love, marry and forgive and raise children as we are told we should---we would all be healthier all the way round.

I suggest ultimately everything is a spiritual matter.

I agree, which is why I am so against things that arent scriptural.

I

Tell me how you gained victory from it.
that was my whole point I have not, it has been several weeks or so since my last attack, but they have not ended. I was asking if anyone had any experience or suggestions, as If it werent happening to me I would not believe it, but unfortunately it is.

HypoTypoSis

19th October 2006, 10:48 PM

Sorry bout that, Hypo, I wasn't trying to be contentious. The point is that pills or therapy cannot treat spiritual issues.

If God wills, yes, He can cure anything, "poof" as you said it. And while I'm not saying that doesn't happen, I do think that more often than not, God uses the knowledge He has allowed us to uncover via science and applied through the medical fields to treat many of our physical diseases/sicknesses.

So I'm not saying that ALL mental health issues are spiritual, but I am of the opinion that most of them are. Part of our problem is that we put WAY too much stock in that vein of thinking, instead of realizing that the vast majority of "mental health" issues are a direct result of sin in our lives, and its affects on our consciousnesses and minds.

Hey, it's a lot easier to rationalize smacking my kids (anger management problems...) if it's not my fault, I was raised in an abusive home, and I have imbalances. So I find a "doctor" who tells me what I want to hear, gives me some pills, and offers an explanation to the courts which get me off the legal hook. (At least, here on earth...) It's a bit more difficult to admit that I'm a filthy sinner whose only goal in life is to please myself, and my anger at my kids is rooted in that sin and selfishness. (A hypothetical situation, at least, the smacking my kids part..., and I sure am glad that God has declared me to be righteous, and doesn't see that filthy sinner any more...just a redeemed one. :) )

Thank you, novcncy; in our own ways we appear to be saying much the same thing.

I think it is remiss for any to self-diagnose or treat their own self. "Physician, heal thyself" is tantamount to the lawyer's adage, "he who represents himself has a fool for an attorney". We simply do not have the objectivity to treat-or represent-ourselves. If we could we would have no need, as a prime example, for "the Great Physician" or, from the legal perspective, our heavenly "Advocate".

Undoubtedly, sin plays a large part in mental health issues and, sadly, most in the mental health profession (even the bulk of so called 'Christian psychologists') are trained in a secular vein (of which those that are Christians then have that vein covered with a thin veil of 'Christianity').

But, again, these mental/emotional issues still need to be brought to the surface and reckoned with. The secular professionals do not believe in the spiritual aspects and the Christian professionals, by and large, are far too ill-equipped (plus their approach is first and primarily secular) to deal with the matter from a spiritual (demonic) approach. IOW, even the Christian mental health professionals are, for the most part, incapabable of either diagnosing or treating demonic influences.

Also, when it is a result of personal sins this is a responsibility issue that rightfully belongs to the person and that must be admitted and not written off in a blame game approach of, "oh, the devil made me do it so it's all his fault".

This is not to say there are not those instances where actual demonic activity is present, although, that is extremely rare and, in the case of Christians coming under attack this is the result of external (demonic) forces and not internal (possession). Again, in such cases, we are instructed to 'flee evil', not take a pro-active and offensive stance of warring against it. To do so is to focus on the evil ignoring that which our attention should be focused on, the Word and Person of Jesus Christ.

There is a difference between mental battles with evil (whether just our own thoughts or our thoughts versus the demonic forces) as opposed to that of multiple personality issues involving demonic possession. But, then, there is also a huge difference between actual MPD disorders (such as chemical imbalances, etc) and actual possession. Here again we see the ineptitude of both secular and Christian mental health care professionals in diagnosing such.

Perhaps one of the most important things to remember about 'counselors' is that it is never their 'job' to heal the individual but, rather, it is their job to 'stir the mental soup pot' enough that the patient can look beyond the mental rut they are in, see new possibilities, take action and, in effect, heal themselves.

This, for most (if, indeed, not all), is almost always emotionally painful and, frequently, shortly after the pain begins is the crux, the split in the road, where they either push forward despite the pain toward facing their hidden issues or, as for all too many, they buck and balk ceasing treatment and return to the comfort zone of repressed pain, feelings and thoughts never realizing how close they really were to improved mental health and stability. It is, also, at this point, that many holler the loudest decrying how awful and neo-demonic the mental health profession is. And so we return to the impossiblity of "physican, heal thyself".

Mental health, even without the (remote) possibility demonic influence factored in, is a very real issue for a great many people and it does help many if given the opportunity. Then, again, this is not to say there are not, as with anything, abuses and ineptitude within the professional ranks.

Traditionally, psychiatrists are second only to psychologists in professional suicide rates. Being but mere mortal sin-ridden humans they are incapable of curing their own problems much less cure others by taking on all their 'psychic' guilt and problems as well.

Also, traditionally, a large number of psychologists enter the profession by not wanting to seek help and, instead, go to school desiring to find the tools to cure themselves. Sadly, we see the obvious error cyclically repeating itself once again in this faulty "physican, heal thyself' attempt.

HypoTypoSis

19th October 2006, 10:51 PM

When I think also of demons I think
Of stuff like witchcraft or from Harry Potter.

Yeah, well, much of that sort of Hollywood stuff is nothing more than the world being prepared not to be surprised at anything thus readily accepting the anti-christ when he eventually makes his appearance.

If Not For Grace

20th October 2006, 09:47 AM

I have past experience with "mental health" care with my ex wife and following our divorce, I bought into all that garbage

Chris: I work in a Mental Hospital. This is one of the reasons I pose these questions. Not all MH professionals are non-christians. Just like you have look to find a Christian MD, you have to search out Christian Counselors and MH professionals.

But Hypo is correct--we often give the "devil"
too much due. Blaming him for things or situations we got ourselves into and that there are ways out.

I'm sorry you have not yet gotten your victory. Perhaps I might suggest a spiritual Detox. Starting simply with affirmations (I am Blessed and Highly Favored, I will be happy just for today, I am grateful for___.)

I beleive if we change our thought process we change our attitudes, if we change our attitdues we change our outlook and behavior and changed behavior nets us changed results in 90% of cases.

If you get with a spiritual pastor with a background of study in the areas of demons, perhaps you can "rule out" the idea of demon attack or "confirm" it and then deal with the result accordingly.

I pray for you to be delivered victoriously from your struggle. Don't despair, God is still in control...

tonysma

20th October 2006, 11:30 AM

I agree, which is why I am so against things that arent scriptural.

that was my whole point I have not, it has been several weeks or so since my last attack, but they have not ended. I was asking if anyone had any experience or suggestions, as If it werent happening to me I would not believe it, but unfortunately it is.

Have been reading your post...very interesting...Yes, I can see how you feel they are not reading your post... I have something that is similar happening to me also...if you would like to talk about this privately, which i do not wish the world to read, you can email or private message me...

chris777

24th October 2006, 12:14 AM

Chris: I work in a Mental Hospital. This is one of the reasons I pose these questions. Not all MH professionals are non-christians. Just like you have look to find a Christian MD, you have to search out Christian Counselors and MH professionals.
What I am talking about is the entire study of mental health is based on the foundation of atheistic freud, and demonicly influenced jung,
everything else is based upon their theories. To come in and try and Christianize the id, and the collective unconcious is just plain foolish.
I am not saying that the intentions arent noble, but historicaly the entire field of "mental health" is in its infancy, and its a decidedly satanic infancy at that. the problem is that it permeates so much so quickly and yet it has very little track record, its snake oil at its best.
Can you honestly say that the majority of your co workers do not follow popular thought on mental health as near gospel?
It is much like evolution, where the majority buys into it, without anything but secondary evidence as example.

But Hypo is correct--we often give the "devil"
too much due. Blaming him for things or situations we got ourselves into and that there are ways out. Hey I am not blaming anyone, or saying I didnt get myself into this, I just described what has happened to me, and asked about it, Seriously how often do you hear the modern church talk about demons seriously, I see apostacy every day, and a clueless church, and I know all too well how mental health has replaced spirits with delusion. I have even discounted my ex wifes ramblings about a conversation she allegedly had with a demon. This is not something I am proud of, this is not something I feel completely comfortable speaking of, because it is largely dismissed in our modern times, and to have it happen to me, in a manner that is not clearly defined in scripture is troublesome. Hencce why I asked.

I'm sorry you have not yet gotten your victory. Perhaps I might suggest a spiritual Detox. Starting simply with affirmations (I am Blessed and Highly Favored, I will be happy just for today, I am grateful for___.)I know we are all important, and special to god, but I feel much of the self esteem self talk is prideful, I remember hearing it, and told to basically chant it.

I beleive if we change our thought process we change our attitudes, if we change our attitdues we change our outlook and behavior and changed behavior nets us changed results in 90% of cases. Oh I have changed my attitude completely I used to believe people were basicaly good, and Now I know we are not. But Christ saved us anyway.

If you get with a spiritual pastor with a background of study in the areas of demons, perhaps you can "rule out" the idea of demon attack or "confirm" it and then deal with the result accordingly. That was my reason for posting, its like many things in the modern compromised church, demon is a word that is largely ignored in the sence it is embarrassing to Christians. You know how there are all these apostate churches condowning all manner of sin like homosexuality and such, under the guise o"f God is love" yet they ignore verses of God condemning even the angels.
That is why I dont Go broadcasting it.

I pray for you to be delivered victoriously from your struggle. Don't despair, God is still in control...
I know I am just having so much go on now, I don't doubt He will provide, I am just impaitent, I have so many problems swamping me currently, and to top it off I have this issue with whatever this is that attacks me, which it really is a side concern to my other issues. Its almost surreal, in that I almost feel like an observer, because my ability to have affect in my life is so limited.

novcncy

24th October 2006, 08:32 AM

What I am talking about is the entire study of mental health is based on the foundation of atheistic freud, and demonicly influenced jung,
everything else is based upon their theories. To come in and try and Christianize the id, and the collective unconcious is just plain foolish.
I am not saying that the intentions arent noble, but historicaly the entire field of "mental health" is in its infancy, and its a decidedly satanic infancy at that. the problem is that it permeates so much so quickly and yet it has very little track record, its snake oil at its best.
Can you honestly say that the majority of your co workers do not follow popular thought on mental health as near gospel?
It is much like evolution, where the majority buys into it, without anything but secondary evidence as example.

Hey I am not blaming anyone, or saying I didnt get myself into this, I just described what has happened to me, and asked about it, Seriously how often do you hear the modern church talk about demons seriously, I see apostacy every day, and a clueless church, and I know all too well how mental health has replaced spirits with delusion. I have even discounted my ex wifes ramblings about a conversation she allegedly had with a demon. This is not something I am proud of, this is not something I feel completely comfortable speaking of, because it is largely dismissed in our modern times, and to have it happen to me, in a manner that is not clearly defined in scripture is troublesome. Hencce why I asked.

II know we are all important, and special to god, but I feel much of the self esteem self talk is prideful, I remember hearing it, and told to basically chant it.

Oh I have changed my attitude completely I used to believe people were basicaly good, and Now I know we are not. But Christ saved us anyway.
That was my reason for posting, its like many things in the modern compromised church, demon is a word that is largely ignored in the sence it is embarrassing to Christians. You know how there are all these apostate churches condowning all manner of sin like homosexuality and such, under the guise o"f God is love" yet they ignore verses of God condemning even the angels.
That is why I dont Go broadcasting it.

I know I am just having so much go on now, I don't doubt He will provide, I am just impaitent, I have so many problems swamping me currently, and to top it off I have this issue with whatever this is that attacks me, which it really is a side concern to my other issues. Its almost surreal, in that I almost feel like an observer, because my ability to have affect in my life is so limited.

WOW!! ^^ Thanks for laying it out like that Chris. I couldn't agree anymore than I do with your assessment of the mental health racket. "A little leaven...", (like an inherently Satanic, foundational philosophy, or should I say, humanism), "leavens the whole lump."

I don't know the answer to your dilemma, but I do know that Jesus has already won the victory, so I hope that at least encourages you to keep seeking Him.

If Not For Grace

24th October 2006, 08:47 AM

the problem is that it permeates so much so quickly and yet it has very little track record, its snake oil at its best.

As you can imagine -- I disagree

One of the major problems MENTAL and PHYSICAL health professionals have is that the clients do not heed the professionals advice. (As a man thinks so is he).

We encourage people to look for the positive
to STOP pouring negative concepts in their brains. We want them to look for a hand up and not a hand out (some do). MH is also victimized by the legal system who use "insanity" pleas to get a better deal for their clients and the clients themselves who are looking only again to escape the consequences for their actions.

Also the FAMILY demise is another obstacle.
It is hard to teach an adult "coping" skills. Some reach for a Valium if someone gets their parking space. Responsibility is often a dirty word.

Plus we are used to warehouse the poor, the poorly behaved and the socially unaccepted (HIV positive for example) as well as the elderly that have been left behind, which depletes our resources.

Our Christian community bears some of the blame, we would rather send our groups to Vail on Ski trips than house the homeless.

MH is not where it should be by any means, but we have had to take on the churches role in feeding and clothing and housing people rather than addressing their illness--kind of like the schools have had to do with our children.

Greed is the cause, now what will we do about it?

novcncy

24th October 2006, 10:11 AM

Also the FAMILY demise is another obstacle....

....kind of like the schools have had to do with our children.

Greed is the cause, now what will we do about it?

Greed is actually a symptom. The real cause is sin.

Public education is a MAJOR factor in the demise of the family...it enables greedy parents to farm their God given responsiblity for educating their children to the state...but that's definitely another issue. By now, the general public is accustomed to recieving these 'benefits', they can't even concieve that educations is NOT a function of government. And so on....

It's related, but probably should be a different thread.

If Not For Grace

24th October 2006, 10:32 AM

Is greed not sin? Perhaps it the major tool of the enemy, are we possessed by greed? Just rambling but its food for thought..

novcncy

24th October 2006, 12:56 PM

Is greed not sin? Perhaps it the major tool of the enemy, are we possessed by greed? Just rambling but its food for thought..
Greed is definitely a way sin manifests itself, so if we look at it from a legal perspective, then yes, greed is sin. But in the end, it is result of the same type of thinking that leads to all sin, choosing MY way over God's way, which I guess could be a definition of greed. To the modern Christian, it boils down to whether or not we are being submissive and yielded to the Holy Spirit. (which, if I were to state it to a mental health professional, would get me labeled with some sort of disorder. "He believes he can be "led" by the "Holy Spirit"! What a nut! He needs some (fill-in-the-blank-drug) so he'll stop listening to the voices in his head!"

Then there's the philosophy that greed is a natural result of man's evolutionary process, and an outgrowth of his survival instinct...... ;) I'm not exactly buying that one, though.

If Not For Grace

24th October 2006, 02:03 PM

Well what I do buy, is that if we want different results we have to do something different.

We can not give up, and we can not quit.

People who have not received the Holy Spirit can not be led by it. It seems to me the first step is like I said before to demonstrate the Love of God, by teaching, feeding, clothing and helping those wounded and let attraction be part of the package (or Witness).

But anyway back to Chris,

but I feel much of the self esteem self talk is prideful,

Why? God so loved us He sent His only Son.
Is that prideful, pride has to do with the motive, IMHO. Resist the devil and he will flee..seems to me has to be part of beating the attack.

If it is prideful to say My God is Almighty, or The only God,or that He loves even me--- then color me full of pride.

JPPT1974

24th October 2006, 06:20 PM

Jesus overcame a lost and dying world
For us in order for us to be made right
With God and it is up to us to accept
God through Jesus Christ as Savior & Lord
Repenting of our sins don't forget
He(God)was thinking of Christ even before
Adam & Eve were going to sin in the Garden
Of Good & Evil.

chris777

26th October 2006, 08:31 PM

Why? God so loved us He sent His only Son.
Is that prideful, pride has to do with the motive, IMHO. Resist the devil and he will flee..seems to me has to be part of beating the attack.

If it is prideful to say My God is Almighty, or The only God,or that He loves even me--- then color me full of pride.
ill touch on this reply in that it is shorter and simpler to anwser.

All the self talk and self esteem I remember getting from mental healt h practitioners , was all based on ME beig able, and My abilities, and all that, it had nothing to do with Christ enabling me to do all things, thats why I call it prideful, in that the end does not justify the means.

I dont know for sure if this is true in your case, but as example, I hear many christians state that behaviors, and actions in themself are "christian" when in fact they are not

JPPT1974

28th October 2006, 01:20 AM

Well what I do buy, is that if we want different results we have to do something different.

We can not give up, and we can not quit.

People who have not received the Holy Spirit can not be led by it. It seems to me the first step is like I said before to demonstrate the Love of God, by teaching, feeding, clothing and helping those wounded and let attraction be part of the package (or Witness).

But anyway back to Chris,

Why? God so loved us He sent His only Son.
Is that prideful, pride has to do with the motive, IMHO. Resist the devil and he will flee..seems to me has to be part of beating the attack.

If it is prideful to say My God is Almighty, or The only God,or that He loves even me--- then color me full of pride.

:amen: :amen:

DeepMindQuest

5th December 2006, 05:18 PM

Demons are the Offspring of the Nephilim Many Christians would agree with me at this point, but they would question my conclusion about demons being the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, even though the book of Enoch specifically declares this. They may disagree by saying, "You can't prove anything by the book of Enoch. You must prove it by the Bible."
And to that argument, I agree! At the same time, skeptics must understand that the book of Enoch was highly regarded by the Jews in Jesus’ day and by the apostles. The Apostle Jude, in fact, quotes from it:
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (verses 14-15)
How did Jude know what Enoch prophesied? After all, the Bible never mentions one word that Enoch spoke. The only reference to Enoch in the Old Testament is in Genesis 5:18-24. Read it and you’ll find no reference to this prophecy which Jude mentions. The Bible just mentions the fact that Enoch walked with God and was no more, because God took him away. Nothing is mentioned about his prophesying.
So how did Jude know that Enoch had prophesied these words? He knew it because the book of Enoch mentions it. My point is simple: The book of Enoch was widely known during the days of the Apostles, and they freely quoted from it thus giving the book credibility.
This doesn’t mean that the book of Enoch deserves to be part of the canon of Scripture; nevertheless, we should analyze its teaching about demons. And since it teaches that demons are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, we should consider this view. I know of no other view that is as credible.
Tormentors
What are demons after all? They are tormentors. This is what the name Nephilim means. It not only means giants, but it also carries with it the meaning of tormentors, bullies, and tyrants. So just the name itself implies that these are demon spirits.
There is something else that Genesis 6:4 says which most people simply overlook.
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men...

Notice that the Nephilim were on the earth in those days. Those days were the days preceding the flood. However, Genesis also says that they were on the earth afterward. In other words, they were on the earth after the flood. Genesis 7:21 says that all mankind perished in the flood.. they came after that (flood) to .. Half Human, Half Angel
Genesis 6:4. The Nephilim were on the earth after the flood. Their bodies were destroyed by the flood, but their spirits remained.
You see, these Nephilim were half human and half angel. We know that when a human dies, he goes either to heaven or hell. But what about these beings who are neither fully human or fully angelic? Where would they go when they died?
They went nowhere. They stayed on the earth. They are the demon spirits that walk through the earth, looking for bodies to inhabit. They know that one day they will be cast into the pit when their time comes. Demons cried out to Jesus, "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" (Matthew 8:29).
There is an appointed time for their punishment. It is not now. So we must still deal with demon spirits.

It is important to understand the difference between demons and fallen angels, because you deal with them differently. You cast out demons, but you pray to God for Him to deal with the fallen angels, just like Daniel did in Daniel 10. is there anything practical which we can learn from knowing the origin of demons? Is there any down-to-earth benefit in knowing that demons are the offspring of fallen angels who had sex with women? Yes, demons are like their fathers—they gravitate more to sexual sins than to any other kinds of sins.
If you want to open yourself up to demons, then practice sexual immorality, and demons will hang around you. Demons are sex-hungry.
This might explain why the mad man of Gerasenes was naked, and when the demons left him, he clothed himself (Mark 5:15). This why Mary of Magdalene—through being a prostitute—had opened herself to seven demons (Mark 16:9). Sexual perversion opens the door to demons.
Most of the hideous mass murderers were in bondage to sexual perversion. We wonder how in the world could someone kill dozens of people. What could make them do such a thing? Demons could do it. When demons are in control, humans will stoop to anything. Demons can drive people to commit horrible acts that defy human comprehension and sensibility.
Sexual sins can expose people to these demons. When you live free from sexual sins, you close the door to many demons.

HypoTypoSis

5th December 2006, 06:59 PM

The terms "demon" and "demons" are not found in either the Old or the New Testaments.

The term "devil" is found 57 times in the New Testament. Which passages refer to "the" devil and which to "devils" as underlings of 'the' devil or as spiritual remains of the Nephilim are a matter of individual study.

The term "devils" is found 4 times in the Old Testament and 44 times in the New Testament.

Satan, in his pre-Fall identity of Lucifer, is spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, among others.

Isaiah 14:12-14, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Back to the thread's question, "hat are demons?"

Evidence points to the fact that demons are not fallen angels but are thye spiritual reamins of the progeny of fallen angels and womankind known as Nephilim (Gen 6:4 and many other O&NT references).

Those evil fallen angels that committed this offense are kept in the bottomless pit until near the end of time when Satan will be allowed to free them for a short time (Likely they will atempt to recreate their previous acts with womanhood, this time in an age of genetics and cloning).

One compelling factor in defense of this (uncomfortable) view is that for angels, which are God created spirit beings, it is not uncomfortable for them in their natural spirit state.

This is not the case for what is variously referred to as demons and devils which find existence without a physical body as uncomfortable, even painful, thus they choose anything, ie man, animal and, possibly, even plant life such as trees, etc).

This is most poignantly exhibited in the case of the Gaderene demoniac (Mark 5:9, Luke 8:30) where Legion begged Jesus to allow them to go into and possess a herd of two thousand hogs; the result of which caused the hogs to go insanely mad and run off a cliff killing themselves entirely.

Jude 1:6, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

This is the source of Pagan mythologies such as Norse, Roman and Greek.

Numbers 13:33, "And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."

Joel 2:2-9, "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief."

Revelation 9:1-3, "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."

Revelation 9:7-11, "And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

The Nephilim, or Giants (http://www.levendwater.org/)

The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam are called in Gen. 6, Ne-phil-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Gen. 3:15).

This was why the Flood was brought "upon the world of the ungodly" (2Pet. 2:5) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude 14).

But we read of the Nephilim again in Num. 13:33 :

"there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim". How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood? The answer is contained in Gen. 6:4, where we read : "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (i.e. in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Heb. gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (lit. men of the name, i.e. who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness).

So that "after that", i.e. after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan". It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before.

As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Gen. 12:6) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated : "The Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land." And in Gen. 14:5 they were already known as "Raphain" and Emim", and had established themselves at Asteroth Karnaim and Shaven Kiriathaim.

In ch. 15:18-21 they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples : "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Gen. 15:19-21; cp. Ex. 3:8, 17; 23:23. Deut. 7; 20:17. Josh. 12:8).

These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deut. 20:17. Josh. 3:10). But Israel failed in this (Josh. 13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:18. Judg. 1:19, 20, 28, 29, 30-36; 2:1-5; 3:1-7); and we known not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology.

As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from on Anak which came of the Nephilim (Num. 13:23), and Rephaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them. From Deut. 2:10, they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (v. 20, 21) and Avim, &c.
As Rephaim they were well known, and are often mentioned : but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These Rephaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isa. 26:14 (where the proper name is rendered "deceased," and v. 19, where it is rendered "the dead"). It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:5. Ps. 88:10. Prov. 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. Isa. 14:8; 26:19). It is rendered "deceased" in Isa. 26:14.

It is retained as a proper name "Rephaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Gen. 14:5; 15:20. Josh. 12:15 (marg.). 2Sam. 5:18, 22; 23:13.& b31 nbsp; 1Chron. 11:15; 14:9; 20:4 (marg.). Isa. 17:5. In all other places it is rendered "giants", Gen. 6:4; Num. 23:33, where it is Nephilim; and Job 16:14, where it is gibbor. By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings.

It is certain that the second irruption took place before Gen. 14, for there the Rephaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Gen. 14:5).

Anak was a noted descendant of the Nephilim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans. Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Gen. 35:27. Josh. 15:13; 21:11); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Arbahim after him, but Anakim after Anak. They were great, mighty, and tall (Deut. 2:10, 11, 21, 22, 23; 9:2), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Num. 13:33). Og king of Bashan is described in Deut. 3:11.
Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem. Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by the Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty. See note on Num. 13:22.

If these Nephilim, and their branch of Rephaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. Why not in Egypt as well as in "the giant cities of Bashan" which exist, as such, to this day?
Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks.
Thus the Babylonian "Creation Tablets", the Egyptian "Book of the dead", the Greek mythology, and heathen Cosmogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorted in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away.

JPPT1974

5th December 2006, 11:47 PM

Denoms I think always come from Devils
As well as Satan's idea of his "angels"
Like God has angels that come to help and
Bring calm and peace
Satan brings his demons to bring harm and hurt
To us if we look at it like that.

HypoTypoSis

6th December 2006, 01:11 AM

Daniel speaks to the governmental order of fallen angels in their rule of the earth.

As to Enoch's two hundred "Watchers" their present consignment can only be Satan's last big ditch effort 'secret weapon' by repeating their prior human line polluting escapades.

The Nephilims' demonic entities are, possibly, a "next to last secret weapon' for not only their, still once again, cohabitating with womankind there is, also, the issue of cloned individuals that would not appear to be blessed with God's breath of life, therefore, their life substance could quite likely be the result of possession by either/or the Nephilims' spiritual/soulical entities that are trapped on the physical plane and/or the fallen evil angels.

DeepMindQuest

6th December 2006, 06:22 PM

http://www.numberman.net/The_Nephelim_Giants.html (http://www.numberman.net/The_Nephelim_Giants.html)
Here are 3 more translations of this same verse.
Daniel 2:43 And just as you saw the iron and the clay of the earthenware mixed together, so the two will be mixed together in human seed; but they will not hold together any more than iron will blend with clay. – New Jerusalem Bible
Daniel 2:43 "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. – New King James
Daniel 2:43 You saw iron mixed with common clay; that means: they shall intermingle with the offspring of men, but shall not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. –Tanakh JPS 1985

"They" are not human. Otherwise it would be saying they are humans mixing with other humans. When we mix together we hold together just fine. If we didn't we wouldn't last long as a human race.
When they do this they are physical when they taught side by side with mankind all the forbidden secrets they were physical. In Enoch it’s mentioned they are preparing Instruments/Devices. Physical sounding things wouldn't you say?

HypoTypoSis

7th December 2006, 11:10 AM