Great cloud of witnesses

[Sword-In-Hand]

Random question of a random thought. I have alot of those lol.

I'm sure alot of us are familiar with the verse in Hebrews that says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses and we are taught that this means that we are watched by those saints who went on to be with the Lord. I know especially when we are young, it's a comforting thought to think we are being watched over by a passed relative or friend.

But I had this thought. I believe when we die, we go immediately into the presence of Jesus. I don't think we're sleeping in the ground waiting for the Judgment. So in other words, the cloud of witnesses are in heaven. And since heaven is a place without sin, I wondered how could we be watched by those who have went on? I mean if we are being watched over by the witnesses, wouldn't they see us fall in our sin and thus wonder what we were doing? Then wouldn't they know what sin is again?

I know this is bizarre, but if anyone has thoughts on this, please elaborate. It's just a wandering thought at 2am. Nothing big.

[rainbowpromise]

Funny thing is, it is just about 2 am here now. I should be sleeping. Grandmas can't handle all nighters!

I had never heard that the saints watch us before. That would be enough to scare a child. Not a comfort at all!

I have drawn my thoughts from Luke 16:19-31. The rich man makes requests and worries about his family. Lazarus has no more cares of the world.

I take comfort in the fact that my grandmother is in a much better place and really does not have any cares of this world left.

[HypoTypoSis]

the verse in Hebrews that says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses and we are taught that this means that we are watched by those saints
It doesn't say nor imply that at all. The word, "Wherefore", grammatically tells us that what follows is inextricably linked to what came before, i.e. the entire 11th chapter. The entire subject speaks on the subject of faith and has nothing to do with living physical people being surrounded by spirits or even ghosts.

[HypoTypoSis]

The rich man makes requests and worries about his family. Lazarus has no more cares of the world.
Lazarus was a real person although he had a different name than the Jewish myth (Lazarus and the rich man) that was attached to it. But that is another 'story' that historically extends back to Abraham's day.

In reiterating this well known and time worn story to the Jews, Jesus was using these two characters in a metaphorical way.


The rich man represented the Jews of the day.
Lazarus represented certain of the Gentiles that would be grafted in.
The dogs that licked Lazarus' sores represented the rest of the Gentiles that would not be in grafted.

[mlqurgw]

I will have to agree with HypoTypoSis on Heb.12:1. The cloud of witnesses are all those spoken of in the preceeding chapter. Their witness is given us in the Word.

[TwinCrier]

I've heard thios verese used by Catholics as reason why we should pray to the saints, I imagine since they are watching us all just like God, but to me, this is more of a coonfirmation for those who have deceased relatives and wish for someone to be there to see them graduate, get married and have children. I think those in heaven aren't missing out on the joys down here. They don't sit around all day watching the world go by, but they don't constantly wonder about THEIR loved ones either. Reminds me of an e-mail I got repeatedly after my dad passed away:

THE LAST GAME OF THE SEASON
(A BLIND MAN IN THE BLEACHERS)
David Geddes
He's just the blind man in the bleachers
To the local home town fans
And he sits beneath the speakers
Way back in the stands
And he listens to the play by play
He's just waiting for one name
He wants to hear his son get in the game
But the boy's just not a hero
He's strictly second team
Though he runs each night for touchdowns
In his father's sweetest dreams
He's gonna be a star some day
Though you might never tell
But the blind man in the bleachers knows he will
And the last game of the season is a Friday night at home
And no one knows the reason but the blind man didn't come
And his boy looks kinda nervous
Sometimes turns around and stares
Just as though he sees the old man sittin' there
The local boys are tryin' but they slowly lose their will
Another player's down and now
He's carried from the field
At halftime in the locker room
The kid goes off alone
And no one sees him talkin' on the phone
The game's already started
When he gets back to the team
And half the crowd can hear his coach yell
"Where the hell you been?"
"Just gettin' ready for the second half,"
Is all he'll say
"Cause now you're gonna let me in to play."
Without another word, he turns and runs into the game
And through the silence on the field
Loudspeakers call his name
It'll make the local papers
How the team came from behind
When they saw him playin' his heart to win And when the game was over
The coach asked him to tell
What was it he was thinkin' of
That made him play so well
"You knew my dad was blind," he said
"Tonight he passed away"
"It's the first time that my father's seen me play"

Now when I'm dead and gone someday, I don't want to watch everyone read a book or go to the bathroom, but it sure would be nice to see my great-grandkids holding their babies.

[rainbowpromise]

Lazarus was a real person although he had a different name than the Jewish myth (Lazarus and the rich man) that was attached to it. But that is another 'story' that historically extends back to Abraham's day.

In reiterating this well known and time worn story to the Jews, Jesus was using these two characters in a metaphorical way.


The rich man represented the Jews of the day.
Lazarus represented certain of the Gentiles that would be grafted in.
The dogs that licked Lazarus' sores represented the rest of the Gentiles that would not be in grafted.

Sorry for the confusion. I was simply saying that I drew my childhood thoughts about the dead from the story. I was one of those children that was afraid of my own shadow. If someone had told me the dead were watching me, I would not have been able cope with that. I had enough trouble with living things.

I was not going to try to delve any deeper at 2 am.

[novcncy]

I will have to agree with HypoTypoSis on Heb.12:1. The cloud of witnesses are all those spoken of in the preceeding chapter. Their witness is given us in the Word.

I agree with him on that too. It's a reference to a heritage of faith, given credence by the facts and details of these witnesses' testimonies.

I disagree with the idea that Jesus related His account of Lazarus and the rich man as a "myth" or a parable, although the given explanation and interpretation seem rather attractive. This is a literal and factual account, unfortunately. If further discussion is desired/merited, let's start a new thread, to avoid hijacking this one, or maybe we can "recyle" a thread?

[HypoTypoSis]

I disagree with the idea that Jesus related His account of Lazarus and the rich man as a "myth" or a parable, although the given explanation and interpretation seem rather attractive.

If further discussion is desired/merited, let's start a new thread, to avoid hijacking this one, or maybe we can "recyle" a thread?

I agree, let's not hijack the thread, so, suffice it to say there are other thread's that deal specifically with the subject so beyond that I'll only post these two links that delve into greater detail and if further discussion is warranted we can resurrect one of the other threads.

The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man (http://www.nactex.com/real_meaning_of_lazarus_and_the_.htm)
The Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State? (http://www.nactex.com/rich_man_and_lazarus.htm)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Have any of the Baptists here seen a thread started on "christians terrorism" which specifically mentions the Baptist church? :wave:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3899495-christian-terrorism-in-northern-india.html
christian-terrorism-in-northern-india.

[LittleLambofJesus]

I agree, let's not hijack the thread, so, suffice it to say there are other thread's that deal specifically with the subject so beyond that I'll only post these two links that delve into greater detail and if further discussion is warranted we can resurrect one of the other threads.

The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man (http://www.nactex.com/real_meaning_of_lazarus_and_the_.htm)
The Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State? (http://www.nactex.com/rich_man_and_lazarus.htm)The OC Jews would have known what Jesus meant by this symbolic prophetic parable I believe.Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from You[Judah?] and given to a Nation [Israel?] bearing the fruits of it.http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm
abrahams_bosom

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah. They still suffer from that fate to this very day.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is without question one of the least understood of all the teachings of our Lord. What is its aim? It is a similitude of something; for all the parables are similitudes, even though, like the parables of the prodigal son, and the unjust steward, both of which are in direct connection with this one, they are uttered like simple narratives, always beginning with, "A certain man," or "There was a certain man." Of what, then, is this parable the similitude? Whom does the rich man represent? Who is the poor neglected beggar full of sores, lying at the rich man's gate?

[novcncy]

The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man (http://www.nactex.com/real_meaning_of_lazarus_and_the_.htm)
The Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State? (http://www.nactex.com/rich_man_and_lazarus.htm)

The nature of the material in these links reveals much about many of your other posts. I couldn't figure out how to PM you, but I can see how a universalist viewpoint cannot accept this as a historical event, as it is the antithesis of universalism. I will start another thread, or bump one as I respond to it. Be on the look out for it.

[novcncy]

The OC Jews ... lying at the rich man's gate?

So you're saying that Luke was written to/for the Jews.....

[LittleLambofJesus]

So you're saying that Luke was written to/for the Jews.....Well, Jesus did come from the Tribe of Judah and those were the Jews which also had the tribe of the Levitical Priesthood, which both Jesus and Paul railed against.Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: 2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name,"

(Young) Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple [#01964] Doth the Lord [0113 'adown] whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Y@hovah [#03068] of Hosts.Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

[HypoTypoSis]

So you're saying that Luke was written to/for the Jews.....

TO the Jews.
FOR the Jews.
And, later, FOR the edification of the in grafted.
But, no, not TO the in grafted.

[novcncy]

TO the Jews.
FOR the Jews.
And, later, FOR the edification of the in grafted.
But, no, not TO the in grafted.

So Theopholis was a Jew.....I have to say, that's a new one to me.

For some reason, I figured the Jews would have known Abraham's geneology.....or at least been concerned with linking themselves to him....

"curiouser and curiouser" to quote Lewis Carroll.

[holdon]

So Theopholis was a Jew.....I have to say, that's a new one to me.

Just a friendly warning: you may be finding a lot of "new" things.

[HypoTypoSis]

Theopholis

No such word in the KJV.

Indeed, curiouser and curiouser.

[JPPT1974]

Just a friendly warning: you may be finding a lot of "new" things.

But since you do bring up the mods
They may have to enforce the rules
We may be finding new things

[mlqurgw]

No such word in the KJV.

Indeed, curiouser and curiouser.He mis-spelled it. Big deal. Theophilus does appear in my KJV in the third verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke.

[HypoTypoSis]

Theophilus does appear in my KJV in the third verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke.


When did Jesus do these things Luke wrote of?
To whom did Jesus speak?
When did Luke write his 'book'?

To whom did Luke write these things?
Theophilus means, 'beloved of God', a common name of the time, and is mentioned by Luke twice.

[novcncy]

He mis-spelled it. Big deal. Theophilus does appear in my KJV in the third verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke.

Well, it's important to focus on the important things here...

For instance Theophilus is a Greek name. You'll also find that Luke addresses him again in Acts 1.

Both books were written for Theophilus, and contain specifics which appeal to Greek critical thought. Luke, a highly educated Greek doctor, has verified his gospel from the eyewitnesses, and is recounting the story from his decidedly Greek perspective. The gospel is written from a Greek, to a Greek, and therefore includes clear delineations between historical and figurative (parables) stories, as the Greek mind would be unable to frame the difference, based in Jewish culture and context, as an author, and to distinguish the difference from the written context as a reader.

Luke, while divinely inspired, presents the story of the rich man and Lazarus as factual to Theophilus, and us all these years later. To insist that it is a parable to conform to a preconceived ideology is a rather illuminating insight into the general practices that result in such "doctrinal positions" in the first place.

There is no reason to insist on this being a figurative story, aside from its doctrinal implications. There are many other arguments which support the literalness of this account (including the prospect of Jesus using/introducing "pagan" philosophy.....He wouldn't have used such a device) but I am afraid the potential for any constructive dialogue was past before the thread was started. I must bow out, but if you all continue the discussion, I trust it will be educational and edifying for your personal walks.

[HypoTypoSis]

For instance Theophilus is a Greek name. You'll also find that Luke addresses him again in Acts 1.

Time frame for both writings are about the same, in fact, it might appear the Acts reference was penned before the Luke; in any event, somewhere around the early 7th decade which places the writings well past the time the incidents being reported actually took place.

as the Greek mind would be unable to frame the difference, based in Jewish culture and context,

In which case, things were changed to accomadate the Pagan Greek perspective.

Luke, while divinely inspired, presents the story of the rich man and Lazarus as factual

According to your opinion with no substantive verification.

There is no reason to insist on this being a figurative story,

There are a lot of reasons, all of which you will ignore, refusing to respond to and, instead, move on with more of your unsubstantiated opinion.

There are many other arguments which support the literalness of this account

Correction: As previously stated, there are many arguments that you will refuse to address that insist this is not a literal account as it is the linchpin of your eternal torment argument without which you will be required to admit is not possible and you fear your misunderstanding is just that thus you will obstinately refuse to open mindedly face the possibility as since you integrally tie eternal torment with salvation which is total and complete doctrinal error.

I am afraid the potential for any constructive dialogue was past before the thread was started.

By your own adamant choice as you have just so succinctly stated.

I must bow out
I sincerely doubt that but we shall, indeed, see just how truthful you are in that respect.

Now, back on track, a close examination of the account will show that if, as the error prone insist, this were a literal account, then there wouild be no figures of speech, no metaphors, no analogies, etc and, yet, only by claiming there are many figures of speech employed is it possible to even consider this to be a literal account and even then, upon closer examoination, it is easily proven that that there are no figures of speech to be entertained but rather, that they refer directly to actual people and incidents in Hebrew history. No, this is a parable and its purpose has absolutely nothing, nada, zip, to do with eternal torment as a reality nor is such to be found within the origins of Hebrew theological thought.

[GordonSlocum]

"so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us"


The previous chapter spoke of a number of past Biblical individuals.

I believe this refers to them. The use of the word "cloud" in my opinion should not be taken to mean the saints are looking down upon us. This may be true but I am not convinced it means that in this case.

To me it is a synonym for "number" or "group"

The verse to me could read "the saints of old are our examples and their example witnesses to us concerning faith." We have them as our examples.

For me to make the word cloud mean saints in heaven looking down on us would be to spiritualize the word but to see it as a synonym of a group or number “all those just mentioned” as recorded. The emphasis is our exposure to these of faith as it is recorded in God’s word. We read and understand their witness they are the Cloud. They are the ones that make up the cloud or group.

[HypoTypoSis]

The previous chapter spoke of a number of past Biblical individuals.

I believe this refers to them. The use of the word "cloud" in my opinion should not be taken to mean the saints are looking down upon us. This may be true but I am not convinced it means that in this case.

To me it is a synonym for "number" or "group"

The verse to me could read "the saints of old are our examples and their example witnesses to us concerning faith." We have them as our examples.

For me to make the word cloud mean saints in heaven looking down on us would be to spiritualize the word but to see it as a synonym of a group or number “all those just mentioned” as recorded. The emphasis is our exposure to these of faith as it is recorded in God’s word. We read and understand their witness they are the Cloud. They are the ones that make up the cloud or group.

Most well said. I concur completely.

[christian73]

The previous chapter spoke of a number of past Biblical individuals.

I believe this refers to them. The use of the word "cloud" in my opinion should not be taken to mean the saints are looking down upon us. This may be true but I am not convinced it means that in this case.

To me it is a synonym for "number" or "group"

The verse to me could read "the saints of old are our examples and their example witnesses to us concerning faith." We have them as our examples.

For me to make the word cloud mean saints in heaven looking down on us would be to spiritualize the word but to see it as a synonym of a group or number “all those just mentioned” as recorded. The emphasis is our exposure to these of faith as it is recorded in God’s word. We read and understand their witness they are the Cloud. They are the ones that make up the cloud or group.

I agree with this as well. We should use them as examples.

[ZiSunka]

Excellent! Even our pastor accidentally fell into the trap of using this to mean that those who went before us are watching what we do, then he corrected himself by saying the witnesses aren't watching us, they are giving us testimony to the faithfulness of God. :)