The Majority Gospel: Working our way to heaven with a choice

[Hagios17]

Dear Baptists

One of the strangest and most ironic of things I have noticed is that the majority of Christians who say they don’t believe in the works-based gospel actually believe in the works-based gospel, believing that they contribute toward God's salvation.

Ask yourself this question, and see if your answer has anything to do with what you did to cause God to respond with giving you salvation: Why did God decide to save you? If your answer was: “Because I chose God”, or “I decided to love God”, or “I believed in him”, or “I asked him into my blood pumping organ”…lol, I mean heart, or etc. then it is clear that you believe in a works based Gospel, because you believe you contributed toward your salvation.



Why did God decide to save you?

“Because I chose God”

Cause of salvation = "I"

Are you a works based believer? Why?

In Christ, the author and finisher of our faith

Hagios17

[TwinCrier]

Faith is not a work. Salvation is a gift, not a prize from a game of chance called the election lotto.

[novcncy]

Dear Baptists

One of the strangest and most ironic of things I have noticed is that the majority of Christians who say they don’t believe in the works-based gospel actually believe in the works-based gospel, believing that they contribute toward God's salvation.

Ask yourself this question, and see if your answer has anything to do with what you did to cause God to respond with giving you salvation: Why did God decide to save you? If your answer was: “Because I chose God”, or “I decided to love God”, or “I believed in him”, or “I asked him into my blood pumping organ”…lol, I mean heart, or etc. then it is clear that you believe in a works based Gospel, because you believe you contributed toward your salvation.



Why did God decide to save you?

“Because I chose God”

Cause of salvation = "I"

Are you a works based believer? Why?

In Christ, the author and finisher of our faith

Hagios17


I say again.....Are you sure you're not "trying to argue", I mean, "posting", in the wrong forum? I don't see a "Baptist" icon on your profile.........


(I think its safe to say I'm not alone in my distaste for the severe myopia which characterizes each post. I'm resonably certain that even this comment will be too subtle, but one can always hope.....)

[PETE_]

I say again.....Are you sure you're not "trying to argue", I mean, "posting", in the wrong forum? I don't see a "Baptist" icon on your profile.........


(I think its safe to say I'm not alone in my distaste for the severe myopia which characterizes each post. I'm resonably certain that even this comment will be too subtle, but one can always hope.....)
Do we need that icon to post here?

I agree that some of these post seem combative but this is not isolated to Haglios. We should all stick to discussing not accusing.

[Sword-In-Hand]

Is the horse dead yet? I feel sorry for the poor thing.

[RichardT]

-God gives us a free gift
-Anyone is ready to receive that gift
-There are reasons why some people decide to refuse the gift of grace

John 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

God so loved the WORLD, not only the elect, he desires ALL to be saved.

Now, calvinism is a complacated doctrine, and it assumes that we don't have free will since God is all knowing, but if that were the case, it would have been in the bible. I see nothing in the bible that might teach this.

[christian73]

Faith is not a work. Salvation is a gift, not a prize from a game of chance called the election lotto.



:amen:

[DiscipleOfIAm]

I have also wondered many times if he is in the wrong forum. See my post to him in his Colosians thread. I, too, believe that these posts are designed to set people up for a debate.

I agree with RichardT and TwinCrier thoguh on this one!

God Bless!

[PETE_]

John 1:12-13
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
(from New International Version)

[RichardT]

John 1:12-13
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
(from New International Version)

John 1:12-13

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Authorized Version

[PETE_]

John 1:12-13

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Authorized Version
says the same thing. They did not do it, God did.

John 1:12-13

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[RichardT]

says the same thing. They did not do it, God did.

John 1:12-13

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are born again not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

exacly..

Notice it says

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Which is the born again experience, that is what verse 13 is talking about, it's not talking about physical birth...

[PETE_]

If you are not born of your own will then you did not choose

[TwinCrier]

This is not speaking of our physical birth, but our spiritual birth, aka, being born again. Why would Christ say "Ye must be born again" if we could not? It seems a sadistic thing to demand of someone who is predestined to hell.

[JPPT1974]

This is not speaking of our physical birth, but our spiritual birth, aka, being born again. Why would Christ say "Ye must be born again" if we could not? It seems a sadistic thing to demand of someone who is predestined to hell.

Everybody must be born again
Spritually in Christ in order to
Achieve eternal life in heaven.

[novcncy]

Although I didn't underline it, I found a brief study (meaning/tense) of the word "received" in verse 12 to be very imformative regarding the individual's will and its involvement in this matter.

[mlqurgw]

Although I didn't underline it, I found a brief study (meaning/tense) of the word "received" in verse 12 to be very imformative regarding the individual's will and its involvement in this matter.
Would you mind giving us some insight into what you found?:)

[novcncy]

Would you mind giving us some insight into what you found?


λαμβανω



Pronunciation Guide lambano {lam-ban'-o}
1) to take
---a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
------1) to take up a thing to be carried
------2) to take upon one's self
---b) to take in order to carry away
------1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
---c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
------1) to claim, procure, for one's self
---------a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
------2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
------3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
------4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
------5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
------6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
---d) to take
------1) to admit, receive
------2) to receive what is offered
------3) not to refuse or reject
------4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
---------a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
---e) to take, to choose, select
---f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
For Synonyms see entry 5877



Tense: Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

Voice - Active

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or
performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The
boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action.

Mood - Indicative

The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an
action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

I trust you can put the pieces together. I wish I knew Greek, but this doesn't seem to be to complicated to me. FYI, all this info is copied and pasted from blueletterbible.com

[rainbowpromise]

Dear Baptists

I cannot tell if you address this letter as a fellow Baptist or as a teacher of Baptists?

One of the strangest and most ironic of things I have noticed is that the majority of Christians who say they don’t believe in the works-based gospel actually believe in the works-based gospel, believing that they contribute toward God's salvation.
This is a fair enough observation. In your 5 or so years of understanding you may very well have noticed this. I have some pretty fair observation in my 35 or so years of understanding as well.

Ask yourself this question, and see if your answer has anything to do with what you did to cause God to respond with giving you salvation: Why did God decide to save you?
This is a very good, thought provoking question.


If your answer was: “Because I chose God”, or “I decided to love God”, or “I believed in him”, or “I asked him into my blood pumping organ”…lol, I mean heart, or etc. then it is clear that you believe in a works based Gospel, because you believe you contributed toward your salvation.



Why did God decide to save you?

“Because I chose God”

Cause of salvation = "I"

Are you a works based believer? Why?

In Christ, the author and finisher of our faith

Hagios17

To give "the answer" in such an arrogant manner leaves people no choice but to agree with you, however if they do agree you can catch them up because you already gave the "right answer."

Why do the teenagers in my life think they know so much more than the Bible college graduates I know?

[holdon]

Why do the teenagers in my life think they know so much more than the Bible college graduates I know?

If youngsters only were willing to learn.... instead of thinking they know it all.

The "Let no one despise thy youth, but be a model of the believers" was said to a young guy.

It means we should not despise them, because they don't give an occasion for us to do so.....

[mlqurgw]

[/font][/size]

I cannot tell if you address this letter as a fellow Baptist or as a teacher of Baptists?
[/font]
This is a fair enough observation. In your 5 or so years of understanding you may very well have noticed this. I have some pretty fair observation in my 35 or so years of understanding as well.


[FONT=Courier New]This is a very good, thought provoking question.

[font=Courier New][size=3][font=Verdana]
To give "the answer" in such an arrogant manner leaves people no choice but to agree with you, however if they do agree you can catch them up because you already gave the "right answer."

Why do the teenagers in my life think they know so much more than the Bible college graduates I know?I remember all those years ago when I too was young and thought I had the world by the tail on a downhill slide. I do find him to display the arrogance of youth but he seems to be a fairly astute young man. Hopefully age and maturity will soften the edges.

EDIT: I should probably add that though it may not have for me there is still hope.

[edb19]

MOD HAT ON


First, just a gentle reminder to stick to the OP.

Second, since it's been mentioned a couple ot times. A person must be a Baptist to debate in the Baptist forum. A Baptist icon isn't specified - rather identifying as a Baptist. Many CF members use a general "Christian" icon, but if you look at their profile they state an affiliation. Others make a post where they state their affiliation. That's sufficient.

edie (edb19)

MOD HAT OFF

[edb19]

Dear Baptists

One of the strangest and most ironic of things I have noticed is that the majority of Christians who say they don’t believe in the works-based gospel actually believe in the works-based gospel, believing that they contribute toward God's salvation.

Ask yourself this question, and see if your answer has anything to do with what you did to cause God to respond with giving you salvation: Why did God decide to save you? If your answer was: “Because I chose God”, or “I decided to love God”, or “I believed in him”, or “I asked him into my blood pumping organ”…lol, I mean heart, or etc. then it is clear that you believe in a works based Gospel, because you believe you contributed toward your salvation.



Why did God decide to save you?

“Because I chose God”

Cause of salvation = "I"

Are you a works based believer? Why?

In Christ, the author and finisher of our faith

Hagios17


I don't know why God decided to save me, nor do I care. What I do know is that He did - I have been saved by grace through faith and that faith a gift of God. I contributed nothing, I did no works, I can't boast.

edie

[christian73]

I don't know why God decided to save me, nor do I care. What I do know is that He did - I have been saved by grace through faith and that faith a gift of God. I contributed nothing, I did no works, I can't boast.

edie


:amen:

Ditto!

[GordonSlocum]

I say again.....Are you sure you're not "trying to argue", I mean, "posting", in the wrong forum? I don't see a "Baptist" icon on your profile.........


(I think its safe to say I'm not alone in my distaste for the severe myopia which characterizes each post. I'm resonably certain that even this comment will be too subtle, but one can always hope.....)
I agree with you. Sould be in the Salvation Forum.

[JPPT1974]

Faith without works is dead
That is what Jesus says!

[Hagios17]

TWINCRIER

Faith is not a work.

Faith is a work. A work of whom, you might ask:


“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”




…John 6:29


Salvation is clearly the work of God.

Salvation is a gift, not a prize from a game of chance called the election lotto.

My God is not a God of chance, but a God of purpose. And I believe in his eternal plan.

[RichardT]

The youth today have access to much more information now than the youth of 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 etc(depends how old you are) years ago..

So we like to think of ourselves as special :)

edit : lol, sorry, derailed the thread again..

[Hagios17]

NOVCNCY

say again.....Are you sure you're not "trying to argue", I mean, "posting", in the wrong forum? I don't see a "Baptist" icon on your profile.........


(I think its safe to say I'm not alone in my distaste for the severe myopia which characterizes each post. I'm resonably certain that even this comment will be too subtle, but one can always hope.....)

Tyranny: Seclusion of denomination, confusion of definition, and misinterpretation of scripture. (Baptists only, even though I am Baptist, that I can’t contend for the faith, and confusing the meaning of the word: argument, that it is altogether bad) And all because you disagree (argumentation here) with what I believe. You won’t bare with me, you won’t reason with me, you’ll rather suppresses me from telling what I believe to be the truth, by branding me as some trouble maker.

“for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness. Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them, for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable; because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened, professing to be wise, they were made fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of fowls, and of quadrupeds, and of reptiles.”

…Romans 1:18-23

[Hagios17]

PETE

Do we need that icon to post here?


Unfortunately, yes.

I agree that some of these post seem combative but this is not isolated to Haglios. We should all stick to discussing not accusing.

I’m not yet perfect in my understanding. So I do make mistakes, and can be aggressive at times. But I’m passionate about Gods word. My bidding here is not to bring strife but to inform of the Gospel.

“But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

…2 Timothy 3:14-17

[Hagios17]

SWORD IN HAND

Is the horse dead yet? I feel sorry for the poor thing.

What godly thing do we hope to accomplish in insulting me? Or do you despise me because I make the works based gospel so obvious?

[mesue]

... Why did God decide to save you? ...
God decided, before He created the universe, that He would save everyone, not just me.
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[Hagios17]

RICHARDT

-God gives us a free gift

This implies something unconditional, which is why one cannot reconcile the free gift of God with free will. For God’s free gift is not given in response to a work of man, choice of man.

There is only one being with the attribute of independents to create choice, and that is God.

-Anyone is ready to receive that gift


“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”



…John 1:10-11


No. Anyone is not ready to receive God.

-There are reasons why some people decide to refuse the gift of grace

Yes there are, but that has nothing to do with free will. If you read Romans 9 you will find that it actually has to do with God either opening or hardening you’re a persons heart.

John 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

God so loved the WORLD, not only the elect, he desires ALL to be saved.

This conclusion is in need of motivation. In other words, how does world in this context refer to all human beings?

Here are some of my own observations. May they help you, but I pray the more that God guide you through these things.:

[John 1:1-9/CREATION & IMAGE OF GOD] Here we are introduced to a name of God: Logos, which namely refers to the process of thought. The image of God in man is also talked of here. [John 1:10-13/WORLD] World in this context, refers to those without the willingness to receive, acknowledge or believe in God. (These are those born of the blood, will of the flesh and will of man). Yet those who believe, (receive, believe and acknowledge), are born of God. [John 1:14-18/INCARNATION & LAW AND GRACE AND TRUTH] Here one learns about the incarnation of God, as one in human flesh. Also, “the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (The law given by Moses, in that form, acts as the law of sin and death to those meant for perdition and condemnation, as Judas was, but in the form of being inscribed upon a man’s heart is of grace and truth: the law of the spirit. Matthew 5:17, Romans 8:2, Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Hebrews 8:10-11) [John 1:19-28/PHARISEES] Here those sent of the Pharisees mistook John for the Messiah and or some prophet, and his water baptism for the spiritual water baptism. They suspected he was the Messiah because of his water Baptism, not knowing that the Baptism was a sign, preparation, of the Messiah to come, and a sign of his spiritual water Baptism, which is talked about by Jesus to the woman of Samaria. -John 4:5-29 [John 1:35-42/ANDREW & PETER] Andrew and Simon Peter, the gathering of these disciples and the renaming of Simon, as Cephas. (God’s calling upon Andrew and Simon) [John 1:43-51/NATHANAEL] Philip informs Nathanael of Messiah, and when the Messias tells Nathanael, also having said there was no guile in nathanael, that he foresaw him sitting under the fig tree, nathanael believed and said he was the Son of God; the King of Israel. (God’s calling upon Nathanael) [John 2:1-11/MARRIAGE] Here Jesus reproves fallible Mary at a marriage in Cana of Galilee. (Giving this passage more thought) [John 2:12-22/TEMPLE] Jesus condemned those who sold merchandise in the temple, driving them out with their merchandise. And the disciples remembered that it was written: “he zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.” Then the Jews asked him what sign he came to show them, and he said: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews mistook the temple he was referring to, being his body, for the one in building for forty and six years. And when Jesus was resurrected from the dead his disciples believed. [John 2:23-25/HEART OF MAN] In Jerusalem many believed on him, but he did not commit himself to them, because he knew all men, needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man. (I recall somewhere in the Old Testament: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?)[John 3:1-12/NICODEMUS] Nicodemus only understands Jesus as good Rabbi. Jesus says that except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Nicodemus questions the possibility of re-entering his mother’s womb to be born once again. Jesus responds and says: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” The rebirth Jesus referred to was a spiritual rebirth of the water and spirit. Jesus then describes the nature of the Spirit through a wind parable, that it goes wherever it so wills, and that those of the spirit are of the same manner. The understanding is that this spirit-water baptism is God’s anointance on whomever he chooses. Then rebuked nicodemus to tell him that he would not receive their witness. And that if he didn’t believe from these earthly things, how then by the spiritual. [John 3:13-18/WORLD] He then related the ascension of the Son of man with God, that the son of man is God. How that the Son of man must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, that whosoever believes in the son of man will not perish and have everlasting life. (This belief is the work of God – John 6:29) And the reason why Christ was lifted up for whosoever of the world to believe was because he loved the world. Thus God didn’t send Christ to condemn the world he so loves, as he sent Jesus to save the world. A person that believes isn’t condemned, and person that doesn’t believe is condemned already. In other words, condemned since the beginning of time. So because Christ came not to condemn the world, those who don’t believe who he condemns are not characterised as part of the “world” in this context. [John 3:19-21/CONDEMNATION] Then Jesus describes the condemnation of men to be their inability to will for God as their deeds are evil; that they hate God and love evil, because their deeds are evil. And that they won’t come to the light, for their deeds will be reproved. But those who “doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Pease and grace

Hagios17


P.S Pease and grace to all those before and after this post too. ;)

[Hagios17]

TWINCRIER

Why would Christ say "Ye must be born again"

What you should be asking is why Christ said to Nicodemus: “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”

[Hagios17]

NOVCNCY

Although I didn't underline it, I found a brief study (meaning/tense) of the word "received" in verse 12 to be very imformative regarding the individual's will and its involvement in this matter.

Life is of God, belief is of God, acknowledgement is of God, the willingness to receive God is of God, all things good are of God. (Ephesians 2:10)

[RichardT]

[John 1:1-9/CREATION & IMAGE OF GOD] Here we are introduced to a name of God: Logos, which namely refers to the process of thought. The image of God in man is also talked of here. [John 1:10-13/WORLD] World in this context, refers to those without the willingness to receive, acknowledge or believe in God. (These are those born of the blood, will of the flesh and will of man). Yet those who believe, (receive, believe and acknowledge), are born of God. [John 1:14-18/INCARNATION & LAW AND GRACE AND TRUTH] Here one learns about the incarnation of God, as one in human flesh. Also, “the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (The law given by Moses, in that form, acts as the law of sin and death to those meant for perdition and condemnation, as Judas was, but in the form of being inscribed upon a man’s heart is of grace and truth: the law of the spirit. Matthew 5:17, Romans 8:2, Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Hebrews 8:10-11) [John 1:19-28/PHARISEES] Here those sent of the Pharisees mistook John for the Messiah and or some prophet, and his water baptism for the spiritual water baptism. They suspected he was the Messiah because of his water Baptism, not knowing that the Baptism was a sign, preparation, of the Messiah to come, and a sign of his spiritual water Baptism, which is talked about by Jesus to the woman of Samaria. -John 4:5-29 [John 1:35-42/ANDREW & PETER] Andrew and Simon Peter, the gathering of these disciples and the renaming of Simon, as Cephas. (God’s calling upon Andrew and Simon) [John 1:43-51/NATHANAEL] Philip informs Nathanael of Messiah, and when the Messias tells Nathanael, also having said there was no guile in nathanael, that he foresaw him sitting under the fig tree, nathanael believed and said he was the Son of God; the King of Israel. (God’s calling upon Nathanael) [John 2:1-11/MARRIAGE] Here Jesus reproves fallible Mary at a marriage in Cana of Galilee. (Giving this passage more thought) [John 2:12-22/TEMPLE] Jesus condemned those who sold merchandise in the temple, driving them out with their merchandise. And the disciples remembered that it was written: “he zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.” Then the Jews asked him what sign he came to show them, and he said: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews mistook the temple he was referring to, being his body, for the one in building for forty and six years. And when Jesus was resurrected from the dead his disciples believed. [John 2:23-25/HEART OF MAN] In Jerusalem many believed on him, but he did not commit himself to them, because he knew all men, needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man. (I recall somewhere in the Old Testament: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?)[John 3:1-12/NICODEMUS] Nicodemus only understands Jesus as good Rabbi. Jesus says that except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Nicodemus questions the possibility of re-entering his mother’s womb to be born once again. Jesus responds and says: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” The rebirth Jesus referred to was a spiritual rebirth of the water and spirit. Jesus then describes the nature of the Spirit through a wind parable, that it goes wherever it so wills, and that those of the spirit are of the same manner. The understanding is that this spirit-water baptism is God’s anointance on whomever he chooses. Then rebuked nicodemus to tell him that he would not receive their witness. And that if he didn’t believe from these earthly things, how then by the spiritual. [John 3:13-18/WORLD] He then related the ascension of the Son of man with God, that the son of man is God. How that the Son of man must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, that whosoever believes in the son of man will not perish and have everlasting life. (This belief is the work of God – John 6:29) And the reason why Christ was lifted up for whosoever of the world to believe was because he loved the world. Thus God didn’t send Christ to condemn the world he so loves, as he sent Jesus to save the world. A person that believes isn’t condemned, and person that doesn’t believe is condemned already. In other words, condemned since the beginning of time. So because Christ came not to condemn the world, those who don’t believe who he condemns are not characterised as part of the “world” in this context. [John 3:19-21/CONDEMNATION] Then Jesus describes the condemnation of men to be their inability to will for God as their deeds are evil; that they hate God and love evil, because their deeds are evil. And that they won’t come to the light, for their deeds will be reproved. But those who “doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Where did you get this from, did you write it yourself?

[Hagios17]

RAINBOWPROMISE

I cannot tell if you address this letter as a fellow Baptist or as a teacher of Baptists?


Ugg… we’ve all got a bit of teacher in us;)

This is a fair enough observation. In your 5 or so years of understanding you may very well have noticed this. I have some pretty fair observation in my 35 or so years of understanding as well.


Fair enough, wisdom comes with age, and some quicker than others.

This is a very good, thought provoking question.


This question has bugged my mind for- so long.

To give "the answer" in such an arrogant manner leaves people no choice but to agree with you, however if they do agree you can catch them up because you already gave the "right answer."


Jesus used the same style of argumentation. Is he arrogant?

Why do the teenagers in my life think they know so much more than the Bible college graduates I know?

A Bible College degree- dung of this world. The Lord is my teacher:

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

…John 6:45

[Hagios17]

HOLDON

If youngsters only were willing to learn.... instead of thinking they know it all.

The "Let no one despise thy youth, but be a model of the believers" was said to a young guy.

It means we should not despise them, because they don't give an occasion for us to do so.....

Let’s have a go at hagios17.

Mmm… the legalistic Pharisees also had a problem with age.

[Hagios17]

MESUE

God decided, before He created the universe, that He would save everyone, not just me.


Universalism.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

“All men” is not of English jargon, this is not without exception, but in the Greek is specific, i.e. all men, as in all of those men, a type of men, not all humanity.

The book of Ephesians specifically relates salvation to the elect of God alone. A careful study of the book’s context will show just this.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

And the next verse:

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

…John 3:18

Which is to say that there are those who are condemned.

3:17 says how he sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but Christ clearly condemned people: Judas, the Pharisees, etc. Therefore, world, in the context of John 3:16 refers to those not condemned by God.

[Hagios17]

Where did you get this from, did you write it yourself?

I wrote it, yes, but my understanding goes out to the big G;) He helps me.

[Hagios17]

First, just a gentle reminder to stick to the OP.

Second, since it's been mentioned a couple ot times. A person must be a Baptist to debate in the Baptist forum. A Baptist icon isn't specified - rather identifying as a Baptist. Many CF members use a general "Christian" icon, but if you look at their profile they state an affiliation. Others make a post where they state their affiliation. That's sufficient.

edie (edb19)

I am Baptist.

[edb19]

I am Baptist.

I know. I was affirming your (and that of any other member who states they are Baptist) right to discuss/participate in the Baptist forum.

edie

[RichardT]

I wrote it, yes, but my understanding goes out to the big G;) He helps me.

God helps you with calvinism?

[mesue]

MESUE




Universalism.
...
Universalism-an understanding of the all-encompassing nature of salvation, including the belief that ultimately all will be saved.
I never said I believed that and how dare you infer my beliefs!
I would think such a learned man as yourself would understand by the scriptures I quoted exactly what I meant. Perhaps I was wrong.

[Hagios17]

EDB19

I know. I was affirming your (and that of any other member who states they are Baptist) right to discuss/participate in the Baptist forum.

edie

Thanks edie;)

[Hagios17]

RICHARDT

God helps you with calvinism?

No. God does not help me with Calvinism- he helps me with the Bible. And has brought me to understand that John 3:16 does not refer to all uhmanity.

[Hagios17]

-

[Hagios17]

s

[Hagios17]

Universalism-an understanding of the all-encompassing nature of salvation, including the belief that ultimately all will be saved.
I never said I believed that and how dare you infer my beliefs!
I would think such a learned man as yourself would understand by the scriptures I quoted exactly what I meant. Perhaps I was wrong.

Misunderstanding is so prominent in this world. I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you, but what you said did seam a little universal. Maybe if you were a little more descriptive I wouldn't made the mistake. Nevertheless I apologize if I have offended you.:)