Is Church Necessary?

[TheListener]

All we get from Church is prejudice, biggotry, judgemental people, dishonesty, etc etc etc all the usual human traits.

There is not one perfect Church out there. And people get hurt in Church, very badly.

I've been thinking, is Church really necessary? If I want to learn about the Bible I can read. If I really want to sing hymns I can casually visit different Churches. And if I want to give money away there are plenty of organisatons desperate for donations.

What other reasons are there to go to Church? Is it even necessary?

[Morgaine1205]

Well, maybe it depends on each individual person as to whether or not church is important. For me, church is important. I can and do read my Bible on my own, but I also enjoy attending Bible study with others from my church - I also enjoy hearing and learning from the sermons that my pastor lovingly prepares (I've assisted him before, and I've seen the work, prayer and love that goes into his sermons!). I enjoy/need fellowship with other Christians - and yes, I enjoy singing hymns in praise of my Lord. So, is church important? It is to me!

On the other hand, I do understand your question, and have experienced some of the things you've mentioned (judgemental people) as well as jealousy, competition, need for recognition, etc. I think that unfortunately, when dealing with the human race, that is going to happen anywhere - the workplace, the grocery store, etc - but does that make it right? No! That's why myself and others pray daily for each other in our church, and for the world in general.

[TheListener]

What a loving and honest answer. Thank you.

[Morgaine1205]

You're most welcome!

[StTherese]

The Church was given to us by Christ as a means of instruction, communion, and worship...over the years some people have deviated from the Church He established 2000 years ago.
"Remember the sabbath and keep it holy..."
Why would Jesus leave us a Church if he did not want us to participate in it?

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

The word church means "mob". No other religious connotation, apart from its context.

So in and of itself, church should be a mob of believers. Not a rioting mob, but a mob nonetheless.

What you describe are to do with heirarchy an a seperation between the Active and Passive roles enforced in so man churches nowadays, maybe. ;)

The priesthood of all believers is about all being Active, and none passive. And certainly not about paying someone to be active on our behalf . ;)

[SecretOfFatima]

Sacrafice of the Holy Mass.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9949/latinmassqh6.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=latinmassqh6.jpg)

All we get from Church is prejudice, biggotry, judgemental people, dishonesty, etc etc etc all the usual human traits.

There is not one perfect Church out there. And people get hurt in Church, very badly.

I've been thinking, is Church really necessary? If I want to learn about the Bible I can read. If I really want to sing hymns I can casually visit different Churches. And if I want to give money away there are plenty of organisatons desperate for donations.

What other reasons are there to go to Church? Is it even necessary?

[TheListener]

I don't believe any one single Church has all it's doctrines correct. Why should I trust anything that comes from imperfect human beings?

[StTherese]

I don't believe any one single Church has all it's doctrines correct. Why should I trust anything that comes from imperfect human beings?
You shouldn't trust imperfect human beings...you should trust God and the Church that He Himself established for His people.

[TheListener]

Trusting the RCC has hurt millions including people I know and love. Same goes for other denominations. People have done a good job in the past of making a mockery of Church to fill their pockets and/or satisfy their lust for power and other things. Why should I trust the RCC?

[StTherese]

Trusting the RCC has hurt millions including people I know and love. Same goes for other denominations. People have done a good job in the past of making a mockery of Church to fill their pockets and/or satisfy their lust for power and other things. Why should I trust the RCC?
Just because people within the Church do bad things doesn't mean the Church itself is bad. The Church is holy, but people are sinful.People do bad things all the time even the ones who don't attend church at all. It is what the Church stands for that should be used to define it...not the actions of some of its members. No where in the doctrines of the RCC will you find that the Church supports "mockery" or "lust".

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Church is necissary in that community is necissary. But this does not mean that we allow every one to critique our lives. Seek to be a disciple and to disciple others, but choose the right peope. ;)

[progressivegal]

I think a big problem with church is how we view it, as something with all the answers, something that is to be feared, something we have to be "good enough for", or something that makes us feel bad, instead if we viewed church as somewhere where a diverse group of people, who may be similar, or may have little in common other than a love for God, people who are all broken and hurting, and yearning for love, acceptance and hope, can come together and share love for one another, for the poor, and for all. Rather than a place where we go to have "answers" hand fed to us, maybe we can think of it as somewhere to go and ask questions, that sometimes result in more questions, and be OK with that. As Jesus put, maybe we can think of it as truly a hospital for the sick. And we're all sick. A place for healing instead of a place for condemnation and finger pointing, and guilting people into believing or doing as we think they should.

[StTherese]

Church is necissary in that community is necissary. But this does not mean that we allow every one to critique our lives. Seek to be a disciple and to disciple others, but choose the right peope. ;)No we shouldn't allow everyone to critique our lives, not even ourselves...but we should be "one mind" and "one body"...how else is this possible except through submission to Christ through his Church...

[glossylips9084]

Well, I don't think you really have to go to church as long as you believe in God, I'm sure its okay.
Sometimes its nice to go to church though; just to see what people are preaching about, and meeting new people who also believe in the Lord.

[StTherese]

Well, I don't think you really have to go to church as long as you believe in God, I'm sure its okay.
Sometimes its nice to go to church though; just to see what people are preaching about, and meeting new people who also believe in the Lord.
James 2:19
"Even the demons believe and tremble"
Imagine that even the demons have faith (believe) in God, yet do you think they will inherit eternal life?

[flaglady]

Our cell group once met at the house of one of our members. The member was (obviously) a Christian. So was the husband but he declined to attend church. This evening we were 4 women and a man plus the husband. During the meeting, which was largely unstructured, just a fellowship meeting, the husband said he was content to stay home watching Songs of Praise and stuff on tv. He read his bible and he prayed but saw no reason to attend church.

To our surprise, our brother suddenly started telling him how he was right where the enemy wanted him. "So long as ye're sitting here at home on ye's own, ye're doing nowt. Ineffective, that's what ye are. Ye's a loose limb and that old man is having a reet good laff at ya! The bible says we's all different parts of the one body, so how come ya'll sit here and let ye'sel be ineffective and call ye'sel a Christian. Can't be so. Loose limb, that's what ya be and alone, ya'll nivver be nowt else. Ne good te neybody!" (Excuse Geordie accent, just didn't 'sound' the same in Queen's English!).

We were a bit disconcerted that he spoke to roughly to our friend's husband but it seemed it was exactly what he needed to hear. Our brother also said he had no idea where all that had come from and he was somewhat disconcerted to hear himslef but it would come out!

Result: hubbie was in church the next week and has been ever since. He was baptised a few months later and has declared over and over how he now realises that what he took as a life was nothing of the kind. He now has Jesus in a very real and different way and is a very changed man.

See, people didn't do this - the Holy Spirit did. But it was only complete when he became part of the church. Not a church, the church.

[Rick Otto]

That rocks, Flag!
Love your snapshot!^_^

"Just because people within the Church do bad things doesn't mean the Church itself is bad."

I used to think that too. Then I read this:

Joh 13:35 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=joh+13:35&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1Jo 4:21 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+4:21&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

[StTherese]

John 13:33-35
33 My children, I will be with you only a little while longer. You will look for me, and as I told the Jews, 'Where I go you cannot come,' so now I say it to you. 34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." I don't see how this contradicts this statement:Just because people within the Church do bad things doesn't mean the Church itself is bad

[Rick Otto]

Judge by the fruit.

[Morgaine1205]

Our cell group once met at the house of one of our members. The member was (obviously) a Christian. So was the husband but he declined to attend church. This evening we were 4 women and a man plus the husband. During the meeting, which was largely unstructured, just a fellowship meeting, the husband said he was content to stay home watching Songs of Praise and stuff on tv. He read his bible and he prayed but saw no reason to attend church.

To our surprise, our brother suddenly started telling him how he was right where the enemy wanted him. "So long as ye're sitting here at home on ye's own, ye're doing nowt. Ineffective, that's what ye are. Ye's a loose limb and that old man is having a reet good laff at ya! The bible says we's all different parts of the one body, so how come ya'll sit here and let ye'sel be ineffective and call ye'sel a Christian. Can't be so. Loose limb, that's what ya be and alone, ya'll nivver be nowt else. Ne good te neybody!" (Excuse Geordie accent, just didn't 'sound' the same in Queen's English!).

We were a bit disconcerted that he spoke to roughly to our friend's husband but it seemed it was exactly what he needed to hear. Our brother also said he had no idea where all that had come from and he was somewhat disconcerted to hear himslef but it would come out!

Result: hubbie was in church the next week and has been ever since. He was baptised a few months later and has declared over and over how he now realises that what he took as a life was nothing of the kind. He now has Jesus in a very real and different way and is a very changed man.

See, people didn't do this - the Holy Spirit did. But it was only complete when he became part of the church. Not a church, the church.
Awesome post! :)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

No we shouldn't allow everyone to critique our lives, not even ourselves...but we should be "one mind" and "one body"...how else is this possible except through submission to Christ through his Church...

Which is what I said old bean ;)


-------------------------------------------------

The key issue, maybe, is whether we are affecting others? How open we are to those around us and how open they become to us. Discipleship, community, euangellion - call it what you wish.

Personal "homer simpson style" christianity works for a whle, but if it is not accompanied by an increased interaction and interdependence with the "World" then it counts for very little - we become no better than hermits obsessed with our own spirituality - which is what we would often acuse the churches we have left behind of!!!!

[christian73]

It has already been said but church is for worship. Its a place where we can worship with fellow christians.

I also like to study the Bible with other believers. Sometimes, a person can make you see a verse or passage of Scripture in a way you've never seen before. That is not to say that you'll always agree with everybody else because you won't. However, it helps sometimes when you can get another perspective.

[flaglady]

Not only for worship, brother - also for edification, encouragement, testifying, prophesying, praying, teaching .... I'm sure there's more.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

And giving money away!

[flaglady]

And giving money away!

Well, don't know about you, bruv - but I give mine to the Lord! What the church does with it is between the elders and God!

[jesusxchick]

Church was created for God and his purpose. Some churches have strayed away from what God wants them to be, but not all of them are like that. Just remember that you're there for no one else but God. He wants your there.

So yes I do believe that going to church is necessary. It's where you learn about God's word, grow in your spiritual life, and worship our lord.

God Bless :)

[StTherese]

Personal "homer simpson style" christianity works for a whle, but if it is not accompanied by an increased interaction and interdependence with the "World" then it counts for very little - we become no better than hermits obsessed with our own spirituality - which is what we would often acuse the churches we have left behind of!!!!
Christ Himself established the Church...How can you justify being a Christian and deliberately not obeying His Word?

Also, we are called to become dependent soley upon God and not this "World"...being too involved and caught up with worldliness leads us to sin and separates us from God; at the same time we are called to deny ourselves, so that we do not even trust ourselves but trust only in God.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Well, don't know about you, bruv - but I give mine to the Lord! What the church does with it is between the elders and God!

Ah, the OT and NT both show us that our money is for the poor, and not for things such a buildings, leaders wages and so on...

Christ Himself established the Church...How can you justify being a Christian and deliberately not obeying His Word?

Also, we are called to become dependent soley upon God and not this "World"...being too involved and caught up with worldliness leads us to sin and separates us from God; at the same time we are called to deny ourselves, so that we do not even trust ourselves but trust only in God.

LOL. To-may-to, to-mah-to.

Did you missread me? Interdependence, not just dependence. Such a practice is inspired by a God that became vulnerble and exposed to this world by becoming a baby then a child and adult. As part of his church, I follow this example. To rely upon others and so that they rely upon me! Following Jesus into the world he loves so much, and discovering the good in all things.

Holiness is more contagious than sin.
Please dont lecture me old bean ;)

[flaglady]

Well, don't know about you, bruv - but I give mine to the Lord! What the church does with it is between the elders and God!
Ah, the OT and NT both show us that our money is for the poor, and not for things such a buildings, leaders wages and so on...


And my church gives to the poor - we have run a drop in centre for the impoverished and needy local folk for about ten years. We also run youth stuff for the local kids and do home visits and give to people in need. We support various overseas missionary enterprises and much other stuff.

But in order to do all that, we need to have a 'building' and pay our staff wages and so on.... You can't expect pastor and the cleaner,etc. to do their stuff for nothing - they've gotta eat and pay the rent just like the rest of us.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I was thinking of other things... thankyou for the fine justification ;) Peace out.

[flaglady]

'kay! 'nuff said, eh? http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/flagady15/smilies/th_smiliecrossflag.gif (http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/flagady15/smilies/?action=view&current=smiliecrossflag.gif&refPage=all&imgAnch=imgAnch47)

[StTherese]

Ah, the OT and NT both show us that our money is for the poor, and not for things such a buildings, leaders wages and so on...



LOL. To-may-to, to-mah-to.

Did you missread me? Interdependence, not just dependence. Such a practice is inspired by a God that became vulnerble and exposed to this world by becoming a baby then a child and adult. As part of his church, I follow this example. To rely upon others and so that they rely upon me! Following Jesus into the world he loves so much, and discovering the good in all things.

Holiness is more contagious than sin.
Please dont lecture me old bean ;)
You are right sorry!
Interdependence is not the same as dependence...:sorry:

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Wow an apology on cf... nice one old bean.

I hope the church will learn to ask questions with the world, rather than talk overtheir questions with preprepared answers!

[progressivegal]

Wow an apology on cf... nice one old bean.

I hope the church will learn to ask questions with the world, rather than talk overtheir questions with preprepared answers!


I agree with this 100%

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Only 100% huh?

[Randombitsofstring]

Our cell group once met at the house of one of our members. The member was (obviously) a Christian. So was the husband but he declined to attend church. This evening we were 4 women and a man plus the husband. During the meeting, which was largely unstructured, just a fellowship meeting, the husband said he was content to stay home watching Songs of Praise and stuff on tv. He read his bible and he prayed but saw no reason to attend church.

To our surprise, our brother suddenly started telling him how he was right where the enemy wanted him. "So long as ye're sitting here at home on ye's own, ye're doing nowt. Ineffective, that's what ye are. Ye's a loose limb and that old man is having a reet good laff at ya! The bible says we's all different parts of the one body, so how come ya'll sit here and let ye'sel be ineffective and call ye'sel a Christian. Can't be so. Loose limb, that's what ya be and alone, ya'll nivver be nowt else. Ne good te neybody!" (Excuse Geordie accent, just didn't 'sound' the same in Queen's English!).

We were a bit disconcerted that he spoke to roughly to our friend's husband but it seemed it was exactly what he needed to hear. Our brother also said he had no idea where all that had come from and he was somewhat disconcerted to hear himslef but it would come out!

Result: hubbie was in church the next week and has been ever since. He was baptised a few months later and has declared over and over how he now realises that what he took as a life was nothing of the kind. He now has Jesus in a very real and different way and is a very changed man.

See, people didn't do this - the Holy Spirit did. But it was only complete when he became part of the church. Not a church, the church.

:eek:
Now if someone said that to me in my home, I’d probably be showing them the door. Maybe things are different in England, but I was raised to not show disrespect to someone in their own home. If I had ever said something like that to someone my parents would have smacked me into next week.

[flaglady]

:eek:
Now if someone said that to me in my home, I’d probably be showing them the door. Maybe things are different in England, but I was raised to not show disrespect to someone in their own home. If I had ever said something like that to someone my parents would have smacked me into next week

Well, pet, this is Sunderland which is a bit of a rough area to start with and people here are accustomed to speaking their minds for one thing. But the other thing was that it was the Holy Spirit that was speaking though him (he is a very Spirit-filled man) and happily the other chap recognised that. Each to his own, really. I expect if someone was in your house imparting a Spirit filled message it would be delivered in keeping with your life experiences!

[InDeoHonorium2]

Not Neccesary, it is after all a Social Gthering...and for those of us who, for whatever reason, don;t like to socialize, what are we to do then ?

As for the "membeship" thing I see nothing wrong at all with going to a different church whenever we feel like it. I can tell you where the best mucis is, where the best sermons are, where the friendliest people are, and where the nicest building is..and guess what? That is 4 different churches up to an hour away from each other.......
SHould I go on? It would only expland the list....

Perhaps instead, I should say that for me, no, it is not neccesary, because I place being spiritual over being religious
But if it works for you.......I won't stop ya

[hairettic]

Wow, real interesing thread. I totally feel like the modern church has become nothing but a social club. Running excess programs that have little results other than to burn out families and leave them with little time to spend together. I am tired of seeing families running high speed in different directions to get to their christian groups. Somehow I think the modern church has lost its way. And I don't want to do anymore.

On the other hand....I do want to fellowship with people of the same belief system....I just want it to be edifying and not draining..........

Now is that alot to ask or what?

[hairettic]

:( apparently...it is!

[Rick Otto]

ya want fries with that?^_^

This IS a good thread.

Pope Flanders is inflatable.^_^

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Inflatable and edible ;)

[ctay]

Church is for people to go worship and hear the word of God. Just focus on God and not the people

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

You describe a church meeting. Church is people and relationships. Plain and simp.

[Rick Otto]

You would think so.
I would hope so.
But is it realy?

Isn't it an institution?
Some think so.

I heard something realy interesting:

What makes institutions strong makes relationships weak.
What makes relationships strong makes institutions weak.

Some gal on the radio was speechifyin' about the institution of marriage.
She said the original Anglo word for wyfe meant peacemaker. It was a way to make strangers into relatives, and purchase peace for the sake of security/prosperity. It was until the last couple hundred years that the notion of marryin' for love appeared & took hold. Witness the description of an illigitemate offspring - "love child".

When marrying for love gained acceptance, so did divorce. What made a child of love more illegitimate than the offspring of a political/economic union?

This immediately resonated with my consternation over the state of "churchianity' - it's status as an institution & that institution's legitimacy of relationship both with God & its members.

[plmarquette]

Hurting People , hurt people ... not the Church Corporate ...

Churches are made up of people , some are good , some are petty , some are granola bars ( fruits , flakes , and nuts ) ... but they are all " successes " waiting to happen ... waiting to meet Jesus on a personal basis .

The media wants us to believe that the 1% , 5% ,10% of those who fail , fall , and depart from sound doctrine are the norm ... not the exception .

Look at James 2 what are you doing with your faith ?
are you doing the corporal works of mercy ( Mat. 25.32-42 ) or are you doing what satan did in Isaiah 14.12-15 speaking in offense , judgement , and anger .

[mont974x4]

We are the Church and we should carrie on the duties of the Church at every opportunity. Those duties being to follow Christs example and meet the physical needs of the people we come into contact with while sharing the Gospel with them.

Perhaps a better question would have been...do we need fellowship with other beleivers. If so, how?

I would say, yes, we do need fellowship with our brothers and sisters. This serves to allow us to share eachothers burdens, keep us from falling away after false teachings, and keep us accountable. It also makes it easier for us to help meet eachothers physical needs.

However, I am not convinced it has to be in the way we have traditionally come to fellowship. We can "have church" anywhere 2 or more are gathered. We don't need a specially trained pastor, we just need someone to step and lead the group in prayer and worship (to include studying the Bible together) and keep things relatively orderly. We have church when we go camping and on Sunday afternoons during lunch (after a traditional service)...this is usually at least 3 famililes. My wife and I have started having church in the mornings before the kids wake up when we do our morning Scripture reading and then we discuss what we read together.

[Gusoceros]

The purpose of church, is to build-up and edify the believers. If all you are getting is bad things- then I would think there are a few things going on:

1) someone's focus is likely on the negative- as there are bound to be good traits to a church as well.

2) there might be little christian leadership happening in the church, either from the pastor or the members.

3) the focus may have gotten off of fellowship, edification, and worship.

At least, those are some of the thoughts that run through my noggin'.

G

[Jhonson69]

Christ never said that we should have a church then why do we give thousands of dollars to our local churches when it's not even a part of christianity?

[Jhonson69]

Did christ build a church during his time on earth? if not then why do we give money to men who have been proven as having bad characters and unreliable where our innocent children are concerned. being a new christian I need to understand these things.

[Rick Otto]

"Christ never said that we should have a church then why do we give thousands of dollars to our local churches when it's not even a part of christianity?"

What Christ said:
Mt 16:18 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+16:18&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
>>Not that we should HAVE one, but we should BE one.
Different people give money for different reasons.
What is "part of christianity" is arguable.

"Did christ build a church during his time on earth? if not then why do we give money to men who have been proven as having bad characters and unreliable where our innocent children are concerned. being a new christian I need to understand these things."
Apparently He STARTED building it during His time on earth. Not ALL of us give thise men money. Careful how you use that word "we".;)

[nucleocide]

This question is entirely subjective. Some people will be able to keep their faith on their own and some will require the support of their community.

The church is symbolic for (I think) all of mankind.

[Col]

Church as in "people" meeting together is important.
Church as in "bricks and mortar and bake sales" is not as important.

[Galefamily4Christ]

:sorry: ..sorry to bring this topic back up..but. ...I don't go to a Church building... but wouldn't I be having church when my family and myself study the bible together in our living room and discuss things about what we read?? Or on Sunday sit together and watch a sermon on TV?? It says in the dictionary under Church "a group of worshipers"...well there are 4 of us so isn't that a group??..just wanting to know:blush: ...

God Bless;)


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[Rick Otto]

:cool:

[Izdaari]

Wow, real interesing thread. I totally feel like the modern church has become nothing but a social club. Running excess programs that have little results other than to burn out families and leave them with little time to spend together. I am tired of seeing families running high speed in different directions to get to their christian groups. Somehow I think the modern church has lost its way. And I don't want to do anymore.

On the other hand....I do want to fellowship with people of the same belief system....I just want it to be edifying and not draining..........

Now is that alot to ask or what?
You do realize that all those time consuming, energy draining "social club" activities are optional? If they aren't edifying, but draining, don't do them. You can just go worship, then go home if you want. And if you want to be more involved, well, be more selective about what you're involved in.