Colossians 1:16 - consider the context

[Hagios17]

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”


…Colossians 1:16


It doesn’t get any simpler than that- well maybe it does, but the point is that Absolute predestination is really that obvious. For those who don’t understand, this passage of scripture implies that God created all sin, all human decision, all human choice and all human action.

BIBLE ETIQUETTE: Please don’t contribute to this thread by contradicting scripture with scripture for such activity eliminates divine inspiration, (i.e. responding to a verse that establishes absolute creation with a verse that establishes partial; negation of meaning); the idea is to explain the passage in context. Other verses are used to support and elaborate on the meaning, but never to contradict the meaning. Using the divinely inspired Word of God to contradict itself reflects on a mind that either doesn’t understand or doesn’t believe.

In Christ, the starter and finisher- and inbetweener of my salvation:bow:


Hagios17:)

[holdon]

God created all sin

This alone says enough about your view.

[Hagios17]

Ignoring the verse says enough about your view too.

[RichardT]

I personnally don't like the calvinist view.

[Jim1927]

For God to be the author if sin, He would have to strip Himself of His absolute holiness....

Sorry, Col 1:16 does not make God the author of sin.

Cheers,

Jim

[RichardT]

For God to be the author if sin, He would have to strip Himself of His absolute holiness....

Sorry, Col 1:16 does not make God the author of sin.

Cheers,

Jim

Agreed.

[rainbowpromise]

God is not the author of confusion, so Scripture should not condradict itself. However a person's interpretation could very well be contradicted with Scripture.

The passage itself was directed towards the people of Colosse, answering their particular spiritual needs. I believe they needed to be aware of what God's original plans were concerning mankind.
In fact most of chapter one is aimed at greeting the believers at Colosse and laying a foundation of truth (as opposed to beliefs from pagan sources) before continuing the letter.

That is how I see it.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Are you in the right forum?

[novcncy]

Are you in the right forum?

^^ What he said ^^

The thing about understanding scripture is that it must be taken as a whole. Most cults like to zero in on isolated texts, and then derive doctrine from those choice texts while excluding the rest of the Bible, which would shed the light of truth on their ridiculous claims.

In this instance, an arbitrary implication has been assigned to this one verse followed by an attempt to circumvent analyasis from the light of the scriptures as a whole, and prevent the inevitable ridicule such an examination would reveal. All under the guise of, I believe it was stated, "Please don't circumvent inspiration", or some other equally banal statement. The only thing here that would circumvent inspiration is asking people to be wilfully ignorant of the scriptures, and to choose to refuse to understand this assertion in light of the whole counsel of God.

Anyway, as it has been so tactfully pointed out, is this the right forum? The answer is, no. One of the few things in which most, if not all, Baptists are united in is the scriptures as our sole source of authority. It is quite foolish to ask us to set this aside to consider such a bizarre proposition.

What an interesting conundrum....consider the verse in context, but don't bring in any additional scriptures.....sorta leaves me wondering......

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

[PETE_]

God created the opportunity for sin by creating perfect liberty. Sin is the perversion of anything good.

[Matthan]

Actually the very existence of sin is a wonderful argument against the five points of Calvinism. After all, what deternimes that one person is predestined to God while another is predestined to damnation? Is it the "sin" factor? Do those predestined for heaven sin less than the pre-destined damned? Or, are their sins not quite as sinful?

Oh, the Calvinists might claim the selection process is due to the wisdom of God. But, we are told, God is no respecter of persons, right?
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Or, "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." You can check out Ephesians 6:9 and Colossians 3:25, too. But, my personal favorite is, "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" I can only wonder if Calvinists might attempt to argue that "every man" really means every (predestined) man?

So, if God is no respecter of persons, then what method of pre-selection for eternal salvation might He use?
Scripture is clear that God wants all men to come unto Him. He has also permitted each man to exercise his own free will in that regard. Every single person can come to God, but they must do so with (by way of) faith in Jesus. That is why God knows what is in the hearts of all men (Acts 1:24). That is why God commands all men to repent (Acts 17:30). That is why He gave all men assurance by the resurrection of Jesus (Acts 17:31). That is why, since all men came into condemnation by the sin of Adam, God permitted the righteousness of one man to allow the free gift of salvation to come unto all men ("Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Romans 5:18). Paul freely admits (by inference) the existence of man's free will when he stated, "To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." Now, was that "some" only the predestined? Hardly. It was those men who heard his sermon and believed in Christ (by their own free will).

I could go on in this vein, but Scripture is clear enough on this matter. You can believe it, or not.

Matthan

[PETE_]

So, if God is no respecter of persons, then what method of pre-selection for eternal salvation might He use?


Eph 1:4-7
In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
(from New International Version)

[PETE_]

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."


Will anyone fear Him or work righteousness without the Holy Spirit?

[AV1611VET]

Hi, Hagios --- nice to meet you :wave:


For those who don’t understand, this passage of scripture implies that God created all sin, all human decision, all human choice and all human action.

Colossians 1:16

I'm not sure what this verse has to do with anything that happened after the Fall in Genesis 3, as this verse is clearly a reference to the state of the universe in Genesis 1.

It places Jesus where He belongs --- at the Creation in Genesis 1 and 2.

[trinityisunity]

Sin is rebellion against God. Why would God create the very thing opposite to Him. God is Pure, Holy and Just. He is incapable of creating sin, as He is incapable of sinning.

[HypoTypoSis]

Crimanently, this old wore out "God created sin" line is as old and worn out as that old atheist query, "is God powerful enough to create a rock so big He can't pick it up?"

In short, it's the result of improper understanding of scripture mixed with a heapingly unhealthy portion of literalist reading.

"Common--spiritual--sense" should tell any and all in Christ that God is never capable of either sinning or of creating sin; therefore, that not being an option the only remaining proper course of action is to follow that line of logic unquestioningly seeking to understand wherein their own misunderstandings of scripture and personal shortcomings exist.

[AV1611VET]

Sin is rebellion against God. Why would God create the very thing opposite to Him. God is Pure, Holy and Just. He is incapable of creating sin, as He is incapable of sinning.

He didn't, Trinity --- He created perfection, with freewill embedded in it.

[Hagios17]

For God to be the author if sin, He would have to strip Himself of His absolute holiness....

Sorry, Col 1:16 does not make God the author of sin.

Cheers,

Jim

Greetings Jim

Your personal supposition: “For God to be the author if sin, He would have to strip Himself of His absolute holiness....” agrees with the statement: “Col 1:16 does not make God the author of sin.”, but does the verse agree with the statement.

Please, could we try and deal with the verse at hand.

In Christ

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

For God to be the author if sin, He would have to strip Himself of His absolute holiness....

Sorry, Col 1:16 does not make God the author of sin.

Cheers,

Jim


Agreed.




But this isn’t an interpretation; it’s a scripturally unmotivated opinion.

[rainbowpromise]

But this isn’t an interpretation; it’s a scripturally unmotivated opinion.

I am not sure I understand what you want.

First you insist on opinions, since you asked people not to use Scripture to answer your question. Then when someone gives you an answer without using other verses to interpret, you acuse the answer of being a Scripturally lazy opinion.

[Hagios17]

Dear Rainbowpromise

God is not the author of confusion, so Scripture should not condradict itself. However a person's interpretation could very well be contradicted with Scripture.

I love it when the scripture contradicts what we believe. I love it when God’s word makes us ignore it and give irrelevant responses, it shows how truly lost and ignorant we are without his spirit that reveals.

The passage itself was directed towards the people of Colosse, answering their particular spiritual needs. I believe they needed to be aware of what God's original plans were concerning mankind.
In fact most of chapter one is aimed at greeting the believers at Colosse and laying a foundation of truth (as opposed to beliefs from pagan sources) before continuing the letter.

That is how I see it.

Oh yes, addressed to those in Colossi, etc., but I also think he was bringing to attention and acknowledging something very spiritual- God’s absolute sovereignty.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

…Isaiah 45:7

In Christ

Hagios17

[rainbowpromise]

How do you pull one verse out and interpret it apart from the rest?

Yes, Paul was bringing a few items to the attention of the recipients of the letter. I am also glad that we have that letter to learn from now as well, but I still don't see how you can interpret it apart from Scripture. In your OP you ask that Scripture not be used to interpret this.

[Hagios17]

The thing about understanding scripture is that it must be taken as a whole. Most cults like to zero in on isolated texts, and then derive doctrine from those choice texts while excluding the rest of the Bible, which would shed the light of truth on their ridiculous claims.

In this instance, an arbitrary implication has been assigned to this one verse followed by an attempt to circumvent analyasis from the light of the scriptures as a whole, and prevent the inevitable ridicule such an examination would reveal. All under the guise of, I believe it was stated, "Please don't circumvent inspiration", or some other equally banal statement. The only thing here that would circumvent inspiration is asking people to be wilfully ignorant of the scriptures, and to choose to refuse to understand this assertion in light of the whole counsel of God.

Anyway, as it has been so tactfully pointed out, is this the right forum? The answer is, no. One of the few things in which most, if not all, Baptists are united in is the scriptures as our sole source of authority. It is quite foolish to ask us to set this aside to consider such a bizarre proposition.

What an interesting conundrum....consider the verse in context, but don't bring in any additional scriptures.....sorta leaves me wondering......


Dear Novcncy

You speak on behalf of a people that don’t even exist.

In theory the majority pay context attention, but in practicality they don’t. Just read this thread.

I will admit, I too have and will ignore context, but this just reminds me of how much of a blumbering idiot I truly am and how desperately I need God to open my eyes.

In Christ

Hagios17

[novcncy]

I love it when the scripture contradicts what we believe. I love it when God’s word makes us ignore it and give irrelevant responses, it shows how truly lost and ignorant we are without his spirit that reveals.



I also think he was bringing to attention and acknowledging something very spiritual- God’s absolute sovereignty.


“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”



…Isaiah 45:7


In Christ

Hagios17


This post is, in itself, yet another contradiction.

You claim to "love it when scripture contradicts what we believe." What you mean is, that you love it when your interpretation contradicts what others believe. You cannot love it when you yourself are contradicted by the truth of scripture because you refuse to consider it holistically.

Paradoxically, you claim to appeal to scripture, and then your next paragraph is based on "what you think" God's absolute sovereignty means. To be blunt, no one is interested or cares what you think when it is so blatantly opposed to the word. It is clear from the rest of the body of scripture that God did not create sin. Your willful obtuseness does not lend you a shred of credibility.

Troll elsewhere. :)

[Hagios17]

God created the opportunity for sin by creating perfect liberty. Sin is the perversion of anything good.



You’re a Calvinist? I thought Calvinists believed God is the Creator of everything…

[Hagios17]

Dear Matthan

Actually the very existence of sin is a wonderful argument against the five points of Calvinism. After all, what deternimes that one person is predestined to God while another is predestined to damnation? Is it the "sin" factor? Do those predestined for heaven sin less than the pre-destined damned? Or, are their sins not quite as sinful?


No. The one’s sin is condemnable and the other’s isn’t, because the one is covered by sin and the other by Christ.
And this is the belief of those who believe in eternal salvation.

Oh, the Calvinists might claim the selection process is due to the wisdom of God. But, we are told, God is no respecter of persons, right?

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Because God is no respecter of persons his selection process is not based on human works, for he sees all human action, decision and choice in the same light- sin. The evil tree parable in Matthew shows that an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Thus God’s selection is according to the good pleasure of his own will and not our will. – John 1:10-13

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

…Ephessians 1:1-14

So, if God is no respecter of persons, then what method of pre-selection for eternal salvation might He use?

No respecter of persons contradicts the idea of free will.

Scripture is clear that God wants all men to come unto Him.

What God wants he gets. There is nothing suppressing God from his will. ”thy will be done”

He has also permitted each man to exercise his own free will in that regard. Every single person can come to God, but they must do so with (by way of) faith in Jesus. That is why God knows what is in the hearts of all men (Acts 1:24). That is why God commands all men to repent (Acts 17:30).

God commands all men to repent because they are sinner?

No. God commands us to repent because we cant. How else would we know we can’t repent? And why on earth would a sinner want to repent? Or is repentance the fruit of an evil tree?

That is why He gave all men assurance by the resurrection of Jesus (Acts 17:31). That is why, since all men came into condemnation by the sin of Adam, God permitted the righteousness of one man to allow the free gift of salvation to come unto all men ("Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Romans 5:18). Paul freely admits (by inference) the existence of man's free will when he stated, "To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." Now, was that "some" only the predestined? Hardly. It was those men who heard his sermon and believed in Christ (by their own free will).

I could go on in this vein, but Scripture is clear enough on this matter. You can believe it, or not.
Matthan


Do a word search of the phrase “all men”. The phrase is clearly not isolated to one definition.

What you need to do is show how that all men refers to all mankind from the context. If you can’t then you should try and get a little more familiar with scriptural jargon.

How does: "To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." avocate free will, when Paul says that he is made all things to all men; he is created all things to all me. How is God creating him unto these actions a display of free will?

In Christ

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

Dear AV1611VET

Ay… 1611 baby;)

Wow- so many people have been killed for trying to protect the 1611, like the Waldinsies.

I'm not sure what this verse has to do with anything that happened after the Fall in Genesis 3, as this verse is clearly a reference to the state of the universe in Genesis 1.

It places Jesus where He belongs --- at the Creation in Genesis 1 and 2.

Well considering that time is one of those things in earth, he must have created everything after the fall.
And judging by God’s eternal, omnipresent and all seeing nature he would of created past, present and future incidents on earth too.

In Christ, 1611 rocks man:head bang while strumming guitar:

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

Dear Trinityisunity

Sin is rebellion against God. Why would God create the very thing opposite to Him. God is Pure, Holy and Just. He is incapable of creating sin, as He is incapable of sinning.

I’m glad your asking the question:

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

…Isaiah 45:7

But besides the unscriptural motivated opinion, were in the Bible does it say that he didn’t create evil and sin, etc.?

[Hagios17]

Dear HypoTyposis

Crimanently, this old wore out "God created sin" line is as old and worn out as that old atheist query, "is God powerful enough to create a rock so big He can't pick it up?"

In short, it's the result of improper understanding of scripture mixed with a heapingly unhealthy portion of literalist reading.

"Common--spiritual--sense" should tell any and all in Christ that God is never capable of either sinning or of creating sin; therefore, that not being an option the only remaining proper course of action is to follow that line of logic unquestioningly seeking to understand wherein their own misunderstandings of scripture and personal shortcomings exist.

Do you perhaps mean extra revelation when you say: “Common--spiritual--sense”? I’m going to stick with scripture. So if you can, please show where it says in the 66 canonical books of the Bible where it is sin to be the author of sin.

Now even though we could argue opinions forever, scripture remains the same. God created all things, yes- even sin, all human decision, action, and choice. – John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 45:7.

If you are going to post in responsive disagreement to my inductions from John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 45:7, could you please motivate yours from the verses too. If you disagree, show me how my inductions don’t tie up with the context please.

In Christ, the creator of absolutely everything- except sin and human choice:grin:

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

Dear Rainbowpromise

Aah… your name refers to a covenant, hey?

I am not sure I understand what you want.

First you insist on opinions, since you asked people not to use Scripture to answer your question. Then when someone gives you an answer without using other verses to interpret, you acuse the answer of being a Scripturally lazy opinion.

If you reread my post you will find that I was advocating the use of scripture just not to contradict the Bible, and that our conclusions be made from the context- logic and grammar implied, and not personal opinion:

BIBLE ETIQUETTE: Please don’t contribute to this thread by contradicting scripture with scripture for such activity eliminates divine inspiration, (i.e. responding to a verse that establishes absolute creation with a verse that establishes partial; negation of meaning); the idea is to explain the passage in context. Other verses are used to support and elaborate on the meaning, but never to contradict the meaning. Using the divinely inspired Word of God to contradict itself reflects on a mind that either doesn’t understand or doesn’t believe.

In CHrist

Haigo17

[Hagios17]

Dear Rainbowpromise


How do you pull one verse out and interpret it apart from the rest?

Yes, Paul was bringing a few items to the attention of the recipients of the letter. I am also glad that we have that letter to learn from now as well, but I still don't see how you can interpret it apart from Scripture. In your OP you ask that Scripture not be used to interpret this.



The obvious solution is to show me how the statements don’t imply God made everything.

In Christ

Hagio17

[TwinCrier]

Dear Rainbowpromise

The obvious solution is to show me how the statements don’t imply God made everything.

In Christ

Hagio17God made the components in the earch for steel, rubber, petrolium etc. Man used those items to build an automobile. We still say an auto is a man-made item. God made man, gave him a soul, a free will ets. Man sins. God doesn't make cars or sin.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Hagios17,

Are you purposely trying to fight with people? Perhaps the apologetics or debate forum would best suit you? You seem to be wanting to argue with others, purposely trying to set someone up so you can debate them. You are 16, are you trying to prove your intelligence? I think it is great you show such an interest in digging deep in the Word, but the way you're doing it is mean spirited.

From this and other posts, it seems you enjoy the debate or argument. Most people use this forum as a means for encoruagement, edification, fellowship, not hostility, debating, and arguing. Occasionally, this happens, but most of us are not here for that. We go to the other forums for those purposes.

I'm no Mod or anything, just my take on your postings here.

God Bless!

[HypoTypoSis]

"Common--spiritual--sense" should tell any and all in Christ that God is never capable of either sinning or of creating sin; therefore, that not being an option the only remaining proper course of action is to follow that line of logic unquestioningly seeking to understand wherein their own misunderstandings of scripture and personal shortcomings exist.


Do you perhaps mean extra revelation when you say: “Common--spiritual--sense”?

Christ, the creator of absolutely everything- except sin and human choice

I Corinthians 2; 3; 8
I Timothy 3
II Timothy 2
James 4
I Peter 2; 5
I John 3


1. From a “Common--spiritual--sense” do you
drink milk,
eat meat or
gnaw on gristle?
2. Do you qualify as

a spiritual babe or
spiritually mature?
3. On what do you base your above 2 answers?
4. Agreed. God did NOT create sin
5. Disagreed. God DID create free will and free choice.John 8
I Corinthians 14:33

[trinityisunity]

God made the components in the earch for steel, rubber, petrolium etc. Man used those items to build an automobile. We still say an auto is a man-made item. God made man, gave him a soul, a free will ets. Man sins. God doesn't make cars or sin.
Great post TC I wish I could rep ya! It wont let me.

God made all things, but the responsibility for commiting sin rests on the creature not the Creator.

In saying this God, as we know, created Lucifer but Lucifer rebelled, God did not make him evil originally. satan obviously had free will, like us. Who brought temptation and then sin into the garden? satan again. GOD DID NOT AND CANNOT CREATE SIN!!! HE IS A HOLY GOD AND IS UNABLE TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF SIN. Unfortunately we have this free will and for most it leads to evil, but for those of us who find God we then can love and serve God.
To interpret the scriptures as God is the author of sin is bordering if not total HERESY!!!

[HypoTypoSis]

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Would it be considered arrogant, immature or both to repeatedly demand that others do your own study and research by continually asking innocuous questions with obvious ulterior motives yet adding nothing substantive to the conversation?

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved...[]...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[JPPT1974]

God doesn't make cars or sins
As those come from our own hands
And that God is perfect unlike us.

[Hagios17]

TWINCRIER

God made the components in the earch for steel, rubber, petrolium etc. Man used those items to build an automobile. We still say an auto is a man-made item. God made man, gave him a soul, a free will ets. Man sins. God doesn't make cars or sin.


Simply: how does John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 not imply that God made everything?

[novcncy]

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Would it be considered arrogant, immature or both to repeatedly demand that others do your own study and research by continually asking innocuous questions with obvious ulterior motives yet adding nothing substantive to the conversation?

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved...[]...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Hypo,

Perhaps you should simplify this question, so it gets "answered".

[Hagios17]

DESCIPLEOFIAM

Hagios17,

Are you purposely trying to fight with people? Perhaps the apologetics or debate forum would best suit you? You seem to be wanting to argue with others, purposely trying to set someone up so you can debate them. You are 16, are you trying to prove your intelligence? I think it is great you show such an interest in digging deep in the Word, but the way you're doing it is mean spirited.

From this and other posts, it seems you enjoy the debate or argument. Most people use this forum as a means for encoruagement, edification, fellowship, not hostility, debating, and arguing. Occasionally, this happens, but most of us are not here for that. We go to the other forums for those purposes.

I'm no Mod or anything, just my take on your postings here.

God Bless!

No. I'm not trying to cause strife. Age is not the issue. And I was of the impression that most of us here actually love to debate- as long as we're winning, lol.

The problem is that Colossians 1:16 is too difficult for us, babes on milk, here to discuss. So why not just say: we aren’t encouraged and edified by Colossians 1:16.

[dentonz]

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”


…Colossians 1:16


It doesn’t get any simpler than that- well maybe it does, but the point is that Absolute predestination is really that obvious. For those who don’t understand, this passage of scripture implies that God created all sin, all human decision, all human choice and all human action.

BIBLE ETIQUETTE: Please don’t contribute to this thread by contradicting scripture with scripture for such activity eliminates divine inspiration, (i.e. responding to a verse that establishes absolute creation with a verse that establishes partial; negation of meaning); the idea is to explain the passage in context. Other verses are used to support and elaborate on the meaning, but never to contradict the meaning. Using the divinely inspired Word of God to contradict itself reflects on a mind that either doesn’t understand or doesn’t believe.

In Christ, the starter and finisher- and inbetweener of my salvation:bow:


Hagios17:)
Well. the problem is; if another scripture contradicts your interpretation of said scripture, then your interpretation is incorrect. Because the Word of God can in no way contradict itself.

[novcncy]

Well. the problem is; if another scripture contradicts your interpretation of said scripture, then your interpretation is incorrect. Because the Word of God can in no way contradict itself.
^^Bump^^

And to elaborate a bit on a previous observation, (I think it was TC's)

Are we to believe this then:

Inarguably, God, through the second person of the trinity, the Son, created all things.

Equally inarguably, automobiles are a thing.

Therefore, God created automobiles.


Is that right, Hagios? Is that the right interpretation of this verse?

[GordonSlocum]

Regardless of ones "Election view" A reading of the book of Colossians to the point we see the over all theme. It may be that there is one over riding theme. There may be several dominant themes. Try to determine the dominant theme/s and sub themes. Don't make commentary of them just list them.

This verse is in the letter for the purpose to teach and meet the need of the Colossians. Is this a truth He is introducing them to - just to teach or is it to answer questions they are bring up. Either way it would mean the same thing.

For me verses 15-23 speak of the supremacy of Christ. It has a similar or we would be more accurate to say the same theme as Hebrew's Christ is superior theme.

As far as its application to Calvinism one has to press it into the text, not take it from to get philosophical Calvinism. To say it supports Philosophical Calvinism is to read into the text.

Paul warns against such foolishness in Chapter 2: 8. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to be cheated

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace a philosophy not from the Bible

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace empty deceit

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace the tradition of men

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace the basic principles of the world

Rejection of Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace Christ
Philosophy Calvinism is empty deceit, and tradition of men - not from Christ.

[novcncy]

...verses 15-23 speak of the supremicy of Christ

:thumbsup:

[PETE_]

Paul warns against such foolishness in Chapter 2: 8. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to be cheated

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace a philosophy not from the Bible

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace empty deceit

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace the tradition of men

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace the basic principles of the world

Rejection of Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace Christ
Philosophy Calvinism is empty deceit, and tradition of men - not from Christ.

Good thing those believing this philosophical calvinism are rare. You are the only person I know that even knows what it is.

[GordonSlocum]

Good thing those believing this philosophical calvinism are rare. You are the only person I know that even knows what it is.

I like that. You did good. I have to say I got a good laugh out of your answer.

I think there is one behind every bush.

[JPPT1974]

God created all things by and for Him
And visible and invisible things from the
Heavens and the earth on six straight days
But on the seventh, He rested on that day
Now known as Sunday!

[GordonSlocum]

Hagios17,

I am working on trying to post a real diagrammatical exegesis for you but for some reason I am having a problem posting it.

So be patient with me I will show you exactly what exegesis looks like and is.

That way no one will be confused and the PCs can tuck their ______ between their legs and squeaky all the way home.

Gents believe it or not I do have to work here and there. I have the free will to work or not. I think I will make me a dart board with a tulip on it and throw darts at it. It will remind me of the pain they are inflecting on innocent should - capturing them and miss leading the to believe God hates lost people and is partial in give some a ticket to heaven and damning all the rest.

Until all are freed from PCism God Bless.

[Hagios17]

Hyper(F.W.)Thesis

Hypo,

Perhaps you should simplify this question, so it gets "answered".



That verse is irrelevant. I’m not working out anyone’s salvation here- And if I were, I would be saying stuff like: you’re all going to burn in hell because you believe in the works gospel of free will. But I ain’t saying nothing like that.

[Hagios17]

DENTONZ

Well. the problem is; if another scripture contradicts your interpretation of said scripture, then your interpretation is incorrect. Because the Word of God can in no way contradict itself.

Oh, there are plenty verses in the Bible which appear to contradict each other, but this is why context is so important. Milk for babies (throwing verse at eachother), and meat for the mature (deep study).

P.S. I know there is a little more implied by the milk-meat parable.

Peace and grace in Christ

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

NOVCNCY


^^Bump^^

And to elaborate a bit on a previous observation, (I think it was TC's)

Are we to believe this then:

Inarguably, God, through the second person of the trinity, the Son, created all things.

Equally inarguably, automobiles are a thing.

Therefore, God created automobiles.


Is that right, Hagios? Is that the right interpretation of this verse?

Well technically God is a thing, but God did not create himself. So to be more exact, all things were made by him except himself. But that’s pretty obvious.

Automobiles hey- I guess so.

Peace and grace, no strife in Christ

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

GORDONSLOCUM

Regardless of ones "Election view" A reading of the book of Colossians to the point we see the over all theme. It may be that there is one over riding theme. There may be several dominant themes. Try to determine the dominant theme/s and sub themes. Don't make commentary of them just list them.

This verse is in the letter for the purpose to teach and meet the need of the Colossians. Is this a truth He is introducing them to - just to teach or is it to answer questions they are bring up. Either way it would mean the same thing.

For me verses 15-23 speak of the supremacy of Christ. It has a similar or we would be more accurate to say the same theme as Hebrew's Christ is superior theme.

This is a lot to ask of me at the moment, so I need more time with this. I will try submit the themes at a latter stage.

As far as its application to Calvinism one has to press it into the text, not take it from to get philosophical Calvinism. To say it supports Philosophical Calvinism is to read into the text.

Paul warns against such foolishness in Chapter 2: 8. Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to be cheated

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace a philosophy not from the Bible

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace empty deceit

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace the tradition of men

To believe Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace the basic principles of the world

Rejection of Philosophical Calvinism is to embrace Christ
Philosophy Calvinism is empty deceit, and tradition of men - not from Christ.

You think you have me boxed- well, you don’t. I’m not a Calvinist.

How does it benefit us if you don’t motivate your statements of how evil and deceptive Calvinism is, (to have been forged by the devil in the depths of hell, set forth amongst pagans as the ultimate new age gospel (funny though how free will is so popular in pagan religion), to deceive the world into thinking God is the creator of all things, to deceive the world into thinking God has enemies whom he hates, to deceive the world into thinking that their sin prevents them from doing a good action of choice, to deceive the world into thinking that Jesus died to save his sheep only, to deceive the world… etc. etc.)

I will admit though, that I find what Calvin learnt from the Bible on the doctrines of grace to be very inline with the Word of Truth.

Peace and grace in Christ

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

Good thing those believing this philosophical calvinism are rare. You are the only person I know that even knows what it is.

“ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

…Matthew 22:14


Grace and peace in Christ

Hagios17

[Hagios17]

I like that. You did good. I have to say I got a good laugh out of your answer.

I think there is one behind every bush.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[Hagios17]

Hagios17,

I am working on trying to post a real diagrammatical exegesis for you but for some reason I am having a problem posting it.

So be patient with me I will show you exactly what exegesis looks like and is.

That way no one will be confused and the PCs can tuck their ______ between their legs and squeaky all the way home.

Gents believe it or not I do have to work here and there. I have the free will to work or not. I think I will make me a dart board with a tulip on it and throw darts at it. It will remind me of the pain they are inflecting on innocent should - capturing them and miss leading the to believe God hates lost people and is partial in give some a ticket to heaven and damning all the rest.

Until all are freed from PCism God Bless.

An idea: Colosians 1:16 says all things in earth. Human choice is a thing in earth.

Anyway. Perhaps you could also post on my thread about John 3:16.

In Christ

Hagios17

[GordonSlocum]

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Answer this:

Yes or No according to your theology.

God chose some but not all and those not chosen will not, can not and are not going to be saved.

Yes this is true
No this is not true.