Turning a blind eye

[chris777]

I had some people ask me about a comment I made in a locked thread, and I thought it deserved its own topic.

So here it is.

We are all sinners, Yet many seem to turn a blind eye toward others, and portray them as somehow holier, and or saintlier than they really are or were, for example.
Martin Luther, the famed reformer, had some horrible words, for the Jews, long after he started the reformation. Yet there is very little mention of it, all that Gets Brought up is the Quotes tha tpeople like to say, or that support their point.

Billy Graham was similar I have heard people claim he saved more people than anyone else in history, Yet He is on tape with richard nixon slamming the Jews.

I do not understand how these people have become more revered than the scriptures.

And when I say that, I am speaking of where the scriptures say to test all things to see if they are of God.
If these were old testament prophets, they would have been stoned.

And dont Get me wrong , my point is not that they were sinners, but rather that they are revered and there are some major issues that they had, that are just overlooked.

dubbaya bush is the same way, all these christian Groups raly around him, as a christian, yet the man called mohammed a prophet of God (which he was not)

I almost forgot pat robertson, and many of his recent comments that are less than Christ like

think about it this way, If it had been a "scandalous " sin they would have been railroaded out, For example, (and yes I realize these people are not nessesarily the best examples, but then again we are all sinners) Jim bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and God old Slick willy himself Clinton.(and agai n I stress I do not endorse, or agree with these men either, they are uses solely as examples)
These men wer villified on scandals, yet their sins are no worse in Gods eyes.

It almost seems borderline idolatry to me. We should be looking to Gods word for leadership , and example, not sinful men.
I dont know why either, I have my suspicions, but I won't get into them yet.

But I do I feel like we turn a blind eye to certain people because of teir alleged "christianess" without testing their fruit, to see if it matches the tree first.
Mel gibson is another good example with his recent outburst,
And agai nthis is not directed at any person in particular , but rather the phenomena of turnin ga blind eye toward sin.

[DeaconDean]

think about it this way, If it had been a "scandalous " sin they would have been railroaded out, For example, (and yes I realize these people are not nessesarily the best examples, but then again we are all sinners) Jim bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and God old Slick willy himself Clinton.(and agai n I stress I do not endorse, or agree with these men either, they are uses solely as examples)
These men wer villified on scandals, yet their sins are no worse in Gods eyes.

Then answer me this friend. Jim Baker, convicted on fraud. Admitted to homosexual activites. Sentenced to prison. Yet is allowed today to stand in the pulpit. Why is that?

Jimmy Swaggert, admitted on national television, that he had committed adultry with a prostitute. The congregation forgave him. He admitted again that he committed adultry with the prostitute again. (Second time) The congregation forgave him. Admitted a third time he had committed adultry with the prostitute again. This time, the prostitute admitted to the fact that Swaggert asked for her to bring her 12 y/o daughter so he could "know" her. (See the interview in a popular adult magazine) How is it that this man, who has shown that he is no longer a man of God. How is it that he is still allowed to preach in his church?

I'll tell you why, because all mankind still sins in one form or another. There is none righteous, no, not one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Everybody sooner or later will stumble and fall. And as Jesus said:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" -Matt. 6:14

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." -Matt. 18:21-22

If you do not like George W. Bush, then it is the right of every American to vote him out. Although that will not be an issue next time. Just like Swaggert. or Baker, the congregation should vote them out. If you don't like Mel Gibson's remarks, don't go to his movies. etc. That is why I would not, could not, and refuse to sit under Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert as my pastor.

Preachers and teachers are to be held to a higher standard:

"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." -Jas. 3:1

Are you going to hold Luther guilty for something he did 500 years ago? The same with Graham, are you going to hold him guilty for something he did 50 years ago?

Who am I to pass judgment on these men?

In fact, I only know of one "man" who spoke the truth in every single word He said. I only know of one "man" who did no sin whatsoever. And no man, on the face of the earth can compare or measure up to Him.

To quote a line from a movie: "Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows the fool."

God Bless

Till all are one.

[arunma]

It's quite true that we tend to whitewash the lives of various historical figures so that we can revere them. I'm not saying we should dismiss Martin Luther as an important Christian theologian (he was a very important teacher), but it's also important to recognize these men's flaws. John Piper says this regarding our tendancy to idealize America's founding fathers:
Greater distance in time between us and our heroes makes admiration easier. This is one reason why some Evangelical Christians stumble over Martin Luther King Day, but not over President's day. King is too close, and his warts can still be seen at the distance of 33 years. But George Washington stands 201 years away from us and through the haze of time we do not see so clearly that his Anglican faith was largely a social convention; that he seems never to have taken communion. John Adams, the second president was skeptical of traditional Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, the third president scoffed at the notion of the Trinity and the deity of Christ. And James Madison, the fourth president drifted toward the deism typical of men of his standing in Virginia in the early 1800's. (Mark Noll, A History of Christianity in the United States and Canada, [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1992], pp. 133-135, 404). But from a distance we don't feel the same indignation about the flaws of our heroes that we feel when they are so close that their sins feel threatening.
From a distance we can make distinctions. We can say: this was an admirable trait, but not that. This we will celebrate and that we will deplore.
It does seem to me that we tend to do the same thing with various figures from Christian history. But seeing as how all men are sinful, it is important for us to use some discernment. Yes, Martin Luther advocated violence against the Jews. John Calvin, whom I often look to for theological guidance, believed in executing heretics. Even the Apostles and the Prophets of Israel had a few flaws. Apart from Jesus, we aren't going to find any teachers who are not sinful in some way or another. So by all means we should recognize the flaws of earlier saints. But this doesn't necessarily mean that we can't learn from them.

Regarding George Bush, I think the problem is entirely different. Although I'd never vote for Bush, I don't doubt that he is a genuine Christian brother. The problem, I think, is that many people see him as a Christian leader, when he neither is a Christian leader nor claims to be. The President is a Christian who happens to also be a secular leader, and we should treat him as such. Unfortunately, many of the more political evangelicals (like Pat Robertson, whom you also mentioned) have proclaimed him as a sort of pope, when he has not even sought such a title. So I do not blame the President for this. Was it right to call Mohammad a true Prophet? Seeing as how I view Mohammad as a terrorist, absolutely not! At the same time, we need to understand that many conservative Christians misunderstand the President's role.

[Cright]

Yeah, and apostles of the NT have denied knowing Jesus, have sinned.. but they also died for Christ's cause.

King David slept with another mans wife, tried to cover up her preganancy, ended up having her husband killed in battle then married her.

People today as leadership in the church SHOULD be above reproach. As members of the body of Christ, we should be able to understand that they will still make mistakes.

We have all throughout history.

Carina

[chris777]

[QUOTE]Then answer me this friend. Jim Baker, convicted on fraud. Admitted to homosexual activites. Sentenced to prison. Yet is allowed today to stand in the pulpit. Why is that? First off I didn't pose this thread to stir up a hornets nest, this is a genuine concern, that I see that concerns me, as we already have enough false teachings abounding from those that are not Christians. As for your question I am as dumbfounded as you as to why it is allowed, considering the scripture says that a deacon can only have one wife , much less a pastor.

Jimmy Swaggert, admitted on national television, that he had committed adultry with a prostitute. The congregation forgave him. He admitted again that he committed adultry with the prostitute again. (Second time) The congregation forgave him. Admitted a third time he had committed adultry with the prostitute again. This time, the prostitute admitted to the fact that Swaggert asked for her to bring her 12 y/o daughter so he could "know" her. (See the interview in a popular adult magazine) How is it that this man, who has shown that he is no longer a man of God. How is it that he is still allowed to preach in his church? Man I didn't know he was a pedophile as well. And again I didn't use them as men, above reproach. but Rather parallell.

I'll tell you why, because all mankind still sins in one form or another. There is none righteous, no, not one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Everybody sooner or later will stumble and fall. And as Jesus said:
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" -Matt. 6:14
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." -Matt. 18:21-22 I wasnt pointing it out as an accusation, it is disheartening, that many turn a blind eye to their sins, in effect justifying them, I wasnt talking about forgiving them, I was talking about either ignoring their sins or sweepig them under the rug.
I remember my grandmother used to just sweep Clintons stuff under the rug because he "seemed like such a nice man"

If you do not like George W. Bush, then it is the right of every American to vote him out. Although that will not be an issue next time. Just like Swaggert. or Baker, the congregation should vote them out. If you don't like Mel Gibson's remarks, don't go to his movies. etc. That is why I would not, could not, and refuse to sit under Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert as my pastor. My point was to point out that many christians are too eager to embrace people, and ideas, without first testing their fruit. And by endorsing them, they automaticly unite themselves with them.

Preachers and teachers are to be held to a higher standard:
"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." -Jas. 3:1 Thats my point,

Are you going to hold Luther guilty for something he did 500 years ago? The same with Graham, are you going to hold him guilty for something he did 50 years ago? I am not talking about these guys before they were saved, I am talking about behaviors and teachings made well after salvation, that I am unaware that either repented of., And for the most part people are either ignorant of , or choose to ignore.

Who am I to pass judgment on these men?
Again I did not intend it in an accusatory manner, but a concerned one of many following false teachings, think of it this way, we hear of all the "good "teachings of martin luther, Yet rarely of the heretic, and yet they both came from the same man, and unfortunately the latter did come after the first, so why not disown at least the teaching rather than sewwp it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen, though it does make me Question the big picture ,and want to look further into it.

In fact, I only know of one "man" who spoke the truth in every single word He said. I only know of one "man" who did no sin whatsoever. And no man, on the face of the earth can compare or measure up to Him.

To quote a line from a movie: "Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows the fool."
I think they Got that here
Matt.15
[1] Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
[2] Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
[3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4] For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[5] But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
[6] And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
[10] And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
[11] Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
[12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
[13] But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
[14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
[15] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
[17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
[18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
[19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

God Bless
Till all are one.
You too

[Matthan]

Shouldn't we all be a lot more concerned regarding our own personal relationship with Jesus, and not concerned so much with the personal spiritual relationships of any other persons? So Luther didn't think much of the Jews. So what? Oh, well. That is his problem that he will have to answer for. Same goes for every other person who ever drew breath. They will all be called to account for their every sinful action.

I desparately want every person to know Jesus, and form a loving, trusting relationship with Him. But, in the end, all I can do is tell those persons I can about Jesus and His love for those who believe in Him. The only person I can have a true effect on is me. I can seek out Jesus because I want to. I can learn as much about Him is I possibly can, again because I want to.

Matthan

[JPPT1974]

Yeah, and apostles of the NT have denied knowing Jesus, have sinned.. but they also died for Christ's cause.

King David slept with another mans wife, tried to cover up her preganancy, ended up having her husband killed in battle then married her.

People today as leadership in the church SHOULD be above reproach. As members of the body of Christ, we should be able to understand that they will still make mistakes.

We have all throughout history.

Carina

At least David really felt bad with
What he did and apologized to God
After being a fool despite really being
A faithful and true sevant of God
We do need to be reproached but in a
Gentle and kind way as Christians.

[chris777]

Shouldn't we all be a lot more concerned regarding our own personal relationship with Jesus, and not concerned so much with the personal spiritual relationships of any other persons? So Luther didn't think much of the Jews. So what? Oh, well. That is his problem that he will have to answer for. Same goes for every other person who ever drew breath. They will all be called to account for their every sinful action.

I desparately want every person to know Jesus, and form a loving, trusting relationship with Him. But, in the end, all I can do is tell those persons I can about Jesus and His love for those who believe in Him. The only person I can have a true effect on is me. I can seek out Jesus because I want to. I can learn as much about Him is I possibly can, again because I want to.

Matthan
Again I am more concerned with how the flock blindly follows these people. Its not the whole pious "thank you lord that I am not a sinner like the tax collector deal.
This is concern for how the church seems so easily swayed, by false teachings.

[TwinCrier]

Yes, the church is easily swayed by false teachings. Satan is crafty, and has more power when Christians forget the power we have in Christ. Only Jesus is above reproach, and even by the standards of the world He was found guilty.

[Cright]

At least David really felt bad with
What he did and apologized to God
After being a fool despite really being
A faithful and true sevant of God
We do need to be reproached but in a
Gentle and kind way as Christians.


We don't know that these other "famous" Christians didn't repent and ask for forgiveness. I know there are plenty of things in my lifetime that I've done and I'm repentant for, but because life is life, I'm sure that I haven't been able to tell every person who saw me do something wrong that I'm sorry it happened and that I'm repentant of that sin.

Matthan has it right IMHO.

Carina

[mlqurgw]

It is our natural tendency to follow men we admire. We do not always agree with what they say or do but we still follow. Mankind will always justify his own sin by looking to those who are public figures and in essense saying, " see he did it too." Paul had to correct the Corinthians for following men rather than Christ. Add that most are just to lazy to think for themselves and haven't the time or inclination to do so. We depend far too much on others to do our thinking for us. One more thing, men are easily deceieved by those who appeal to them in some way.

[DeaconDean]

Shouldn't we all be a lot more concerned regarding our own personal relationship with Jesus, and not concerned so much with the personal spiritual relationships of any other persons? So Luther didn't think much of the Jews. So what? Oh, well. That is his problem that he will have to answer for. Same goes for every other person who ever drew breath. They will all be called to account for their every sinful action.

That is exactly right. I can't answer for the actions of these men, I'm gonna have a hard enough time standing in front of the righteous judge and answer for my actions. What these men said about the Jews is nothing new. Antisemitism is as Old as 3500 years ago. Why does this suprise most people. It is common knowledge that their a re certain "right wing racist groups" here in the USA that preach and teach antisemitism in the name of Jesus. How stupid is that. They teach that because the Jews rejected the Savior they should be wipped off the face of the earth. How wrong is that?


Yes, the church is easily swayed by false teachings. Satan is crafty, and has more power when Christians forget the power we have in Christ. Only Jesus is above reproach, and even by the standards of the world He was found guilty.


That is what it is all about! When one sees that the church Jimmy Swaggert is allowed to preach in in spite of his sins, they see the church saying well those sins weren't that bad, after all, he did ask forgiveness. And pertty soon Satan uses that to fool the people into thinking that well I stole $10 dollars, but at least I didn't commit adulty, so I'm still better than Swaggert. That is what is happening in our churches today. If the Catholic church wasn't so strick in their standard about priests being unmarried, perhaps those crimes they committed against those altar boys might not have happened. But when the church turns a blind eye to this, what are the poeple suppose to do? Satan is leading us down the road to apostasy. It is the duty of each and every Christian that sees this sort of activity going on, to stop it. Whether it is the pastor of a 10,000 member church or a pastor of a 50 menber church. If an elder is stealing from the church, they should be dealt with, remove them from the eldership. If the pastor is caught in adultry, vote them out of the pulpit. That is our duty to God, that is our duty to our fellow Christian. Woe onto me if I bring shame on the name of Christ or His church. Fact is, people don't want to "rock the boat." But we as Christians, are to "rock the boat."

Satan is in every church people. We bring him with us when we come to church with the wrong attitude. We are to go to church to worship and praise Him for what He has done for us. Just 250 years ago, if a pastor would have been caught in a situation like these other men, the whole town, not only the church, but the whole town would have run him out. Every generation that was born after the Korean War, has contributed to the moral down fall of America.

I could care less what happens in a persons life before the were saved. It is only after they come to the Lord that concerns me. It is time that Christians stand up for what is right. But as long as the church itself turns a blind eye, the congregation will follow. So who is the more to blame, the church. or the body?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[chris777]

Deacon your last post just made my arguement for me, particurly the second half.

[DeaconDean]

Exactly friend!

[GordonSlocum]

Show me a Christian who is willing to openly blast and re-buff a believer who falls and I will show you one who is struggling with internal serious sin themselves.

Christians - all of us - are still sinners saved by Grace through our faith in Christ.

We are not free of the capability to sin. We must submit to Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit everyday.

We need to teach against sin, and all evil deeds of darkness but not slam a brother regardless of who they are in public or with other Believers. Our hears should be humbled and we need never condemn them. What secret sin do you harbor in your life. Is it a sex sin, pride, rebellion of some kind. I am no different form David, Peter, you, all the rest that have been mentioned and neither are you - so to take the lion and lamb approach (this side of the 1000 yr. kingdom) is to take the wrong approach. Point out sin but lets not slaughter the fallen. He that says he has not sinned is a liar and the truth is not in him. May it be far from my lips to take a condemnation approach to openly slander a fallen brother. God will chastise them not me. It is a tragedy that these have sinned and much bad testimony came from it but as a believer we are not called to judge their sin in the public square.

We teach and preach and witness what God's word says about sin but it is not our place to openly chastise them but to show the world we love eachother when one has fallen.

My two and one half cents.

Gordon

[mlqurgw]

Show me a Christian who is willing to openly blast and re-buff a believer who falls and I will show you one who is struggling with internal serious sin themselves.

Christians - all of us - are still sinners saved by Grace through our faith in Christ.

We are not free of the capability to sin. We must submit to Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit everyday.

We need to teach against sin, and all evil deeds of darkness but not slam a brother regardless of who they are in public or with other Believers. Our hears should be humbled and we need never condemn them. What secret sin do you harbor in your life. Is it a sex sin, pride, rebellion of some kind. I am no different form David, Peter, you, all the rest that have been mentioned and neither are you - so to take the lion and lamb approach (this side of the 1000 yr. kingdom) is to take the wrong approach. Point out sin but lets not slaughter the fallen. He that says he has not sinned is a liar and the truth is not in him. May it be far from my lips to take a condemnation approach to openly slander a fallen brother. God will chastise them not me. It is a tragedy that these have sinned and much bad testimony came from it but as a believer we are not called to judge their sin in the public square.

We teach and preach and witness what God's word says about sin but it is not our place to openly chastise them but to show the world we love eachother when one has fallen.

My two and one half cents.

GordonThe Gospel is about forgiveness. Well said.

[chris777]

I think the point got lost somewhere. It is not to pick out and target certain Christians. It was to point out that many follow them when they are UNREPENTANT. I am not trying to point fingers or anything like that, as all I have to do to see the biggest sinner I know of is to look in the mirror. But I admit it. Basically what I wanted to point out is how people are venerated almost as saints, even after unrepentant sins.
It' s in my opinion almost a form of compromise, in that we are pointing out the sins of the unsaved, yet we ignore, or sweep the sins of our leaders under the rug. Now if their were repentance, I would have no issue, but many don't believe they have sinned or don't admit it.
It is similar to the homosexual issue, where many believe they are not in sin, when the scriptures say otherwise.

[RED that's ME]

Do you think if a person in leadership truly repents and proves themselves after a certain period of time, should they be eventually allowed back into a leadership position?

[mlqurgw]

I think the point got lost somewhere. It is not to pick out and target certain Christians. It was to point out that many follow them when they are UNREPENTANT. I am not trying to point fingers or anything like that, as all I have to do to see the biggest sinner I know of is to look in the mirror. But I admit it. Basically what I wanted to point out is how people are venerated almost as saints, even after unrepentant sins.
It' s in my opinion almost a form of compromise, in that we are pointing out the sins of the unsaved, yet we ignore, or sweep the sins of our leaders under the rug. Now if their were repentance, I would have no issue, but many don't believe they have sinned or don't admit it.
It is similar to the homosexual issue, where many believe they are not in sin, when the scriptures say otherwise.
The problem with men such as Luther and others of those of bygone days is that they were just as much a product of their culture as we are. We simply cannot judge them according to our standards. If their sin is without question on of blatant disregard of the plain and clear teaching of the Scriptures then yes we may make a judgement of that sin. If it is one that was not considered a sin in their day and isn't one that is clearly defined in the Scriptures, not according to our interpretation but one which cannot be denied as sin, then we must take them as they are.

[GordonSlocum]

Yes great men have fallen. You have fallen. I have fallen. The difference we are not in pubic life. Our approach and attitude should be caution and prayer. Those you speak of -may be you today or tomorrow. None of us are exempt from the attacks of Satan, the Flesh, and the World system.

I want to make an appeal to show compassion, not approve of their sin or ours but in that they are Christians regardless of slant in doctrine we are constantly battering them in public. Many that were mentioned I personally was not a follower of, but it does not give me personally the right to open the wound. Look at David’s dealings with Saul. In spite of Saul’s hate for David - David never once reviled or slandered God’s Anointed. Saul - the anointed King of Israel - rebellious and all - was still the King and God’s anointed. God was the revenger not David. Don’t you think we should practice a David approach verses what we are doing?

Their plight can be use in a more positive way. It serves notice to us.

Lets try to take a different approach to these that have fallen.

[christian73]

Remember what Jesus said to the pharisees? "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

The Bible tells us how to recognize false teachers. When we see them, we should go the other way.

I look at it this way. God will deal with those people. I have enough to answer for.

[chris777]

Do you think if a person in leadership truly repents and proves themselves after a certain period of time, should they be eventually allowed back into a leadership position?
Depends on the sin, there are certain restrictions on the position, such as marrage.
I am divorced, So if I ever remarry, then I do not think I could personally hold any office.
A friend of mine recently was attending a church where the majority of the deacons were remarried, and when he discussed it with the pastor, the pastor basically disregarded scripture, saying he would have no deacons, my friend replied, and what would be wrong with that?

We are represenatives of Christ on earth, and as such we should hold that responcibility as best we can. Another example is a methodist dinner we were envited to today, the pastor is a woman, considering the blatant scripture in this reguard, we passed up the opportunity to meet her, as I am sure she has been confronted with it before, so instead of starting a rucus, we kept our mouths closed.
But it is indicative of the situation at hand, that we tolerate and accept too many things that are either not in scripture, or blatantly against it.

[chris777]

The problem with men such as Luther and others of those of bygone days is that they were just as much a product of their culture as we are. We simply cannot judge them according to our standards. If their sin is without question on of blatant disregard of the plain and clear teaching of the Scriptures then yes we may make a judgement of that sin. If it is one that was not considered a sin in their day and isn't one that is clearly defined in the Scriptures, not according to our interpretation but one which cannot be denied as sin, then we must take them as they are.
The key word is culture, which is one reason I have rejected my culture entirely, as apostate. Because if not then fornication, and adultry (among many other things)are no longer sin, of which I am guilty of both.
As for Luther, scripturally I do not see any justification now or then, for his stated views on the Jews. It is like slavery, it is allowable, yet as christians they were to treat their slaves as well as possible.
I personally contend it still is in existence today only in a different form.

[Pepperoni]

Depends on the sin, there are certain restrictions on the position, such as marrage.
I am divorced, So if I ever remarry, then I do not think I could personally hold any office.
A friend of mine recently was attending a church where the majority of the deacons were remarried, and when he discussed it with the pastor, the pastor basically disregarded scripture, saying he would have no deacons, my friend replied, and what would be wrong with that?

We are represenatives of Christ on earth, and as such we should hold that responcibility as best we can. Another example is a methodist dinner we were envited to today, the pastor is a woman, considering the blatant scripture in this reguard, we passed up the opportunity to meet her, as I am sure she has been confronted with it before, so instead of starting a rucus, we kept our mouths closed.
But it is indicative of the situation at hand, that we tolerate and accept too many things that are either not in scripture, or blatantly against it.
Absolutely. And I also agree with the poster who pointed out that pastors/deacons are to be held to a higher standard. Yes, we're to forgive others when they fall, but that doesn't mean there are no repercussions (sp?). i.e. loss of leadership role within the church. Not that our church leaders are expected to be perfect, but if they are deliberately and publicly going against God's Word on an issue . . . then they should forfeit that leadership role.

[chris777]

Yes great men have fallen. You have fallen. I have fallen. The difference we are not in pubic life. Our approach and attitude should be caution and prayer. Those you speak of -may be you today or tomorrow. None of us are exempt from the attacks of Satan, the Flesh, and the World system.

I want to make an appeal to show compassion, not approve of their sin or ours but in that they are Christians regardless of slant in doctrine we are constantly battering them in public. Many that were mentioned I personally was not a follower of, but it does not give me personally the right to open the wound. Look at David’s dealings with Saul. In spite of Saul’s hate for David - David never once reviled or slandered God’s Anointed. Saul - the anointed King of Israel - rebellious and all - was still the King and God’s anointed. God was the revenger not David. Don’t you think we should practice a David approach verses what we are doing?

Their plight can be use in a more positive way. It serves notice to us.

Lets try to take a different approach to these that have fallen.
I never meant any of it as slander or reviling in it, the problem i have is that it has turned into praise for them, at the cost of covering their sins, It would be different if they repented of them as david did of hs sins, but they did not, and it s almost as if we justify them by their works , and that somehow justifies their sins. I say this as an attempt to root out sin from among us, not to point fingers or what not.

[RED that's ME]

Yes great men have fallen. You have fallen. I have fallen. The difference we are not in pubic life. Our approach and attitude should be caution and prayer. Those you speak of -may be you today or tomorrow. None of us are exempt from the attacks of Satan, the Flesh, and the World system.

I want to make an appeal to show compassion, not approve of their sin or ours but in that they are Christians regardless of slant in doctrine we are constantly battering them in public. Many that were mentioned I personally was not a follower of, but it does not give me personally the right to open the wound. Look at David’s dealings with Saul. In spite of Saul’s hate for David - David never once reviled or slandered God’s Anointed. Saul - the anointed King of Israel - rebellious and all - was still the King and God’s anointed. God was the revenger not David. Don’t you think we should practice a David approach verses what we are doing?

Their plight can be use in a more positive way. It serves notice to us.

Lets try to take a different approach to these that have fallen.



David is a good example. :) He was in leadership and messed up royally but God still called him *a man after God's own heart* and God used him in many ways. We can learn from David's life and still do when we read/study/apply Psalms.

We have to be careful how we judge others. We have to also forgive as God forgives. We have enough to worry about just taking care of our own life. That's not to say we should close a blind eye to others. We are to humbly confront other christians when there's sin in their life to help restore them in their relationship to God & others.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

simple

[MrJim]

I think one of the side effects of these "celebrity" leader downfalls is that is causes distrust of leaders in the church, and causes people to become a tad bit more withdrawn...fostering a bit of a Lone Ranger approach to Christianity, and in our individualistic society that is going the wrong way.

[Nadiine]

David is a good example. :) He was in leadership and messed up royally but God still called him *a man after God's own heart* and God used him in many ways. We can learn from David's life and still do when we read/study/apply Psalms.

We have to be careful how we judge others. We have to also forgive as God forgives. We have enough to worry about just taking care of our own life. That's not to say we should close a blind eye to others. We are to humbly confront other christians when there's sin in their life to help restore them in their relationship to God & others.


I so agree to this! Unfortunately, we have so many today trying in the name of "love" to embrace the sin with the sinner. As if the minute you call something sin, you're "condemning" them, or judging or being hateful.
Things seem to be getting so out of balance. :sigh:

I think it would be so helpful if our pastors might teach on what real Godly love & proper biblical judging are to set things straight for everyone.
There seems to be so much confusion and accusing going on that if we just had some proper definitions, it might stop alot of this?

[JPPT1974]

I so agree to this! Unfortunately, we have so many today trying in the name of "love" to embrace the sin with the sinner. As if the minute you call something sin, you're "condemning" them, or judging or being hateful.
Things seem to be getting so out of balance. :sigh:

I think it would be so helpful if our pastors might teach on what real Godly love & proper biblical judging are to set things straight for everyone.
There seems to be so much confusion and accusing going on that if we just had some proper definitions, it might stop alot of this?

We need to stop judging unless we want to be judged ourselves and that comes from loving and not judging people different than us
Or if we don't agree with them, we can agree to disagree!

[Ian68]

I had some people ask me about a comment I made in a locked thread, and I thought it deserved its own topic.

So here it is.

We are all sinners, Yet many seem to turn a blind eye toward others, and portray them as somehow holier, and or saintlier than they really are or were, for example.
Martin Luther, the famed reformer, had some horrible words, for the Jews, long after he started the reformation. Yet there is very little mention of it, all that Gets Brought up is the Quotes tha tpeople like to say, or that support their point.

Billy Graham was similar I have heard people claim he saved more people than anyone else in history, Yet He is on tape with richard nixon slamming the Jews.

I do not understand how these people have become more revered than the scriptures.

And when I say that, I am speaking of where the scriptures say to test all things to see if they are of God.
If these were old testament prophets, they would have been stoned.

And dont Get me wrong , my point is not that they were sinners, but rather that they are revered and there are some major issues that they had, that are just overlooked.

dubbaya bush is the same way, all these christian Groups raly around him, as a christian, yet the man called mohammed a prophet of God (which he was not)

I almost forgot pat robertson, and many of his recent comments that are less than Christ like

think about it this way, If it had been a "scandalous " sin they would have been railroaded out, For example, (and yes I realize these people are not nessesarily the best examples, but then again we are all sinners) Jim bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and God old Slick willy himself Clinton.(and agai n I stress I do not endorse, or agree with these men either, they are uses solely as examples)
These men wer villified on scandals, yet their sins are no worse in Gods eyes.

It almost seems borderline idolatry to me. We should be looking to Gods word for leadership , and example, not sinful men.
I dont know why either, I have my suspicions, but I won't get into them yet.

But I do I feel like we turn a blind eye to certain people because of teir alleged "christianess" without testing their fruit, to see if it matches the tree first.
Mel gibson is another good example with his recent outburst,
And agai nthis is not directed at any person in particular , but rather the phenomena of turnin ga blind eye toward sin.
Good thought!

The only way I know to avoid this is to keep exalting the Lord Jesus Christ. The very best of us can't touch his standard. When we lose sight of it, we risk exalting they "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."

[Nadiine]

We need to stop judging unless we want to be judged ourselves and that comes from loving and not judging people different than us
Or if we don't agree with them, we can agree to disagree!

Well that's very true, I agree:thumbsup:
Your post actually supports my cause for asking our Leaders to teach us PROPER judging...

We aren't to wrongly judge - Jesus said:
Jhn 7:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn007.html#24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


We judge the fruit people display:
Mat 7:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat007.html#16)-20 Ye shall know them by their fruits...Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit...Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

We all judge every day. We discern right from wrong.

Like, you read my post and 'judged' my position needed to be corrected.
That is a judgment you made; it was your evaluation, discernment about my statement.
If you can kindly correct my post, why can't we kindly correct someone who says "there's nothing wrong with having sex w/out marriage"? or, "cheating isn't wrong as long as it doesn't hurt anyone"? etc.

We use judgements about everything; the difference is, ARE WE HATING & CONDEMNING PEOPLE for their sin.
Do we attack them for it in anger? Do we sit in contempt of them -treat them poorly? If so, God will judge OUR sin & treat us the same way.
When we lovingly correct, we aren't doing wrong.

**We have a close set of friends who live together w/out marriage, not once have we 'judged' them about it. They know that we disagree w/ their lifestyle becuz he asked my husband details about what we think about it - and that's enough. :holy:
We love the unsaved, we kindly let them know God's stance on it (when the timing is right to talk about it), THEN WE LEAVE THEM BE.
That isn't judging, that's gentle, loving correction & truth.

If we do not openly share the truth of God, then I don't think we're doing our job of being a LIGHT to the world by keeping silent. :wave:

peace:angel: