Charismatic-Kundalini connection

[nikolai_42]

What are your thoughts on this?

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-kundalini-shakers-charismastics.htm

[Alabare]

May God open your eyes to the truth.

[nikolai_42]

That doesn't say much. Could you expand on that? What, specifically, are you in disagreement with? It isn't my page, just something I thought was useful for discussion.

[Andrew]

Just proves to me the devil is out there counterfeiting the genuine gifts of God.

also, owner of the site is obviously anti-Charismatic/Pentecostal etc, so I'd just brush it aside as another self-appointed church policeman sort of site. I think these self-appointed heresy hunters shld GET-A-LIFE! *LOL

[nikolai_42]

Hi Andrew,

And how do you know which are counterfeits and which are real?

[All4Christ]

I'd say it's sickening for someone to do that. Of course there are times when non-Christians will LOOK like they're doing something that is of the spirit. Why do you think Paul warned the people of Corinthians about focusing too much on tongues? Why do you think he told them that they needed to test interpretations and prophecies against the Bible? There were many cases at that time where "unchristian" and "unorthodox" religions were doing much of what that guy showed in the article about kundali. Paul told them to desire the gifts of the spirit...key word SPIRIT, but to make sure that the prophecies, interpretations, tongues, etc. were of God, and not Satan/man. It is sickening when people mock/twist the occurances of what happens with the gifts of the spirit into saying that they make someone equivalent with something like kundali.

[All4Christ]

Oh, and Alabare, I couldn't agree more whole-heartedly....to everyone who believes what that article says.

[nikolai_42]

Today at 11:19 AM All4Christ said this in Post #6 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=718715#post718715)

I'd say it's sickening for someone to do that. Of course there are times when non-Christians will LOOK like they're doing something that is of the spirit. Why do you think Paul warned the people of Corinthians about focusing too much on tongues? Why do you think he told them that they needed to test interpretations and prophecies against the Bible? There were many cases at that time where "unchristian" and "unorthodox" religions were doing much of what that guy showed in the article about kundali. Paul told them to desire the gifts of the spirit...key word SPIRIT, but to make sure that the prophecies, interpretations, tongues, etc. were of God, and not Satan/man. It is sickening when people mock/twist the occurances of what happens with the gifts of the spirit into saying that they make someone equivalent with something like kundali.



Where did Paul say to test the spirits against the bible? What does one do to discern between the spirit that comes upon a guru and a spirit that comes upon a believer when the manifestations are the same (e.g. speaking in tongues)?

[All4Christ]

Okay Nicolai...I was just learning about this in Bible class at my college....I don't have all the references here...one of them is in 1 Corinthians... 12:1-3....it doesn't say those specific gifts but the passage is talking about gifts, and it is saying what you can't say if you have the Spirit of God with you. 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. Every member of the body of Christ has been given some spiritual gift that is an evidence of the Spirit's working in his life. All the gifts are intended to build up the members of the Christian community. They are not to be used for selfish advantage, as some in the Crointhian community apparently were doing. verse 10 To another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. Okay, so look at distinguishing between spirits. Since there can also be false prophecies that come from evil spirits, this gift is necessary in order to distinguish the true from the false. 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. Much of 1 Corinthians (mainly withing 11-14) deals with the misuse of gifts. Forgive me about the part about the prophecies being tested by the Bible, I should have said scripture, as the canon obviously wasn't complete at the time this letter was written. I'll do some more searching to find the references or the more clear and precise passages. There are some that are much more specific and deal precisely with this, but I have my notes at school so I'll have to find them on my own.

[nikolai_42]

Thanks for your response, AllForChrist. I agree fully that discernment is needed. And that discernment must be spiritual and cannot be physical. I have noticed that whenever the Spirit of God comes upon a person in the bible, it is unto revelation and understanding. It isn't a thing of fleshly manifestation. But, that said, Jesus did breathe on the disciples (in John 20, I think) and gave them the Holy Spirit YET, even so, He told them to wait until they were endued with POWER from on high. Many men in the OT had the spirit of God come upon them, and some of them (e.g. Balaam, Saul, Samson) were not good, but that didn't stop God from using them. But in the NT we see evidence of power (see my signature...I'm starting to understand it) and manifestations. Well, this is a new thing and it requires (as you say) spiritual discernment. And the problem I have is not that there are manifestations, but that the bar to judge such things seems (quite often) to be physical (e.g. he's a Christian so it must be the holy spirit , or he's not a Christian so it can't be the holy spirit) instead of spiritual. He that is spiritual, as Paul says, judges ALL things.

[All4Christ]

I couldn't agree more whole-heartedly. The audience that Paul was speaking to was for the most-part a Christian audience. Many Christians today misuse the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I can say from even within my own church that some Christians misuse the Holy Spirit. I also would agree that, just as you said, the bar to judge must be a spiritual one. If you need me to back that up with scripture, ask and I will.

[Andrew]

Hi Andrew,

And how do you know which are counterfeits and which are real?


1. Does it point to Christ and his finished work?
2. What is the fruit? eg a person speaks in tongues. What then are the changes in his life after that? Does he draw closer to God, have more intimate rleationship, etc.
3. Does it line up with scripture or go against it. eg a prophecy that tells you God wants you to divorce your wife is nonsense.

What does one do to discern between the spirit that comes upon a guru and a spirit that comes upon a believer when the manifestations are the same

i think this is pretty common sense. If he's a medium or guru, obviously he's not a born again Christian so why wld the Holy Spirit be using him? So we can safely conclude its not the Holy Spirit.

[nikolai_42]

Today at 11:10 PM Andrew said this in Post #12 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=720330#post720330) 

If he's a medium or guru, obviously he's not a born again Christian so why wld the Holy Spirit be using him? So we can safely conclude its not the Holy Spirit.



 But what about the other way? What if the person is a Christian (or at least seems to be) and is in an assembly? Do you automatically judge the manifestation to be 'good'?  How are any of the standards you listed spiritual discernment? Isn't that what is required for spiritual manifestations?

 As for a guru manifesting, just because a non-believer manifests isn't reason enough to discount the manifestation. There are Hindu experiences that are identical in nature to those that Christians have and are seen today.

[Alabare]

Today at 03:58 AM nikolai_42 said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=720440#post720440)


 As for a guru manifesting, just because a non-believer manifests isn't reason enough to discount the manifestation. There are Hindu experiences that are identical in nature to those that Christians have and are seen today.



look at Andrew's point #1
:clap: true, not all those who cry Lord Lord are of the Lord. Not all give glory to God. But, The Bible does teach that the Holy Spirit testifies leads us in the ways of God. If the masifistation does not edify the church, which is Jesus' bride or point us to a closer walk with the Lord Jesus, then it isn't the Holy Spirit but a false spirit.
I am the Lord your God, have NO other God before me.
Jesus the one and only.

[nikolai_42]

Today at 02:57 AM Alabare said this in Post #14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=720783#post720783)

look at Andrew's point #1
:clap: true, not all those who cry Lord Lord are of the Lord. Not all give glory to God. But, The Bible does teach that the Holy Spirit testifies leads us in the ways of God. If the masifistation does not edify the church, which is Jesus' bride or point us to a closer walk with the Lord Jesus, then it isn't the Holy Spirit but a false spirit.
I am the Lord your God, have NO other God before me.
Jesus the one and only.




 Yet he seemed to be saying that discernment was based - not on spiritual discernment - on externals. As for edifying the church, even Paul says that tongues don't always edify the church. If someone speaks in another tongue (whether it be earthly or not), they edify only themselves. But Paul doesn't deny that the gift of tongues is a true spiritual gift.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 08:51 AM nikolai_42 said this in Post #15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=721082#post721082)




 Yet he seemed to be saying that discernment was based - not on spiritual discernment - on externals. As for edifying the church, even Paul says that tongues don't always edify the church. If someone speaks in another tongue (whether it be earthly or not), they edify only themselves. But Paul doesn't deny that the gift of tongues is a true spiritual gift.



As Andrew has already pointed out, the devil is a good imitator of the real.  There is no reason to have a fake if there is no real.

If a tongue is spoken in a known language, whoever is within the hearing of that word, and understands it, is built up.

I have a friend, I've told this story many times, who while under an anesthitic and in surgery spoke in tongues the whole time.  

Afterwards, he was approached by the nurse asking him how long he had spoken Hebrew.  He told her he did not know Hebrew.  She informed him that his doctor, being Jewish, had understood every word and my friend was witnessing to his doctor the whole time.  The only one in the room who could understand was the doctor, so it uplifted him. 

[Andrew]

ÊBut what about the other way? What if the person isÊa Christian (or at least seems to be) and is in an assembly? Do you automatically judge the manifestation to be 'good'?Ê HowÊare any of the standards you listed spiritual discernment? Isn't that what is required for spiritual manifestations?

there are a number of simple tests you can do:

1. Does what is being said, done or promoted line up with the Word of God?
eg a prophecy that God is going to judge America tomorrow for their sins does not square up with God's Word on his grace and reconciliation of the world. so it aint from the Holy Spirit.
2. Does the thing point to Christ and his finished work? Acknowledge Jesus as Lord and God? Glorify the son? or does it point to some other person?
3. what is the unction in your spirit. Is it in agreement? Or is there a tension or uneasiness about the manifestation.
4. Look at the fruit. What's the long-term or short-term outcome?

ÊAs for a guru manifesting, just because a non-believer manifests isn't reason enough to discount the manifestation. There are Hindu experiences that are identical in nature to those that Christians have and are seen today.

I'm not discounting the manifestation. I believe some are real just that the power comes from the devil, not God. But some can simply be explained away by science. There was a Discovery Channel docu exposing these Hindu guru fakes. Then there was also a National Geographic docu on spiritists -- that's the real stuff where they go into trances (the demon they worship/serve takes over their body) and they can't rem what they did after that.

[SnuP]

Or maybe there is a better test.

Two points. 

the Holy Spirit always glorifies Jesus:  If the gospel of Christ is being administered or furthered then it is of God.  (remember:  every spirit that comfesses Jesus has come in the flesh?)

and you can better discern by drawing from your relationship with God than you can from your own understanding of the scriptures.  True, this will only work if you have a good relationship with God and know His voice well.  But if you do know the voice of God, He will always testify of Himself.  An example would be the times that I did not like what I was hearing and wanted to totally write of someone, but instead I asked God for His imput and was astounded to find out that this was God's man and I was the one who was wrong.  But because of my good relationship with God, I was able to avoid gross error and recieved a blessing from the man of God.  I wish greatly that more people in the body of Christ would do this, because it would produce more fruit of unity than we now have and much less attacks of annointed men of God.

[dignitized]

snup: good point - the devil NEVER pushes you towards God - he works to push you away from Him. :) The Holy Spirit proclaims Jesus Christ, repentance, and holiness.

[Hoonbaba]

Just thought I'd jump in here:

As 'weak' as this argument may be, there were many miracles that Jesus did and they weren't written down because "the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written" (John 20:25). I think John was exaggerating but the fact is that phenomena like Slain in the spirit, uncontrollable laughter, physical jerks and Animal sounds, and roaring may've happened, just maybe not written down. So I guess I'm arguing from silence.  But it's something that shouldn't be brushed aside too quickly.

New spiritual insights & revelations - Public revelation ended with the apostles, however, congregational prophesying was to be used for the edification of the church and this kind of prophesying was actually to be tested, why else would scripture say, "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said". So there's a clear difference between those two types of prophesying.

Demon possession of adherents - I'm not sure i know what this is referring to, but aren't we all aware of demon possession mentioned in the gospels?

Spontaneous movements - Again, I'm not sure what this is referring to.

Leaders is Divine - I don't recall any bible centered charismatics claiming to be divine..

Feel energy surge, electricity or fire - Jesus felt the power go out of him when the woman touched him (Mark 5:30-31)

Revival like meetings - Maybe we can say Pentecost is an example (Acts 2)

Repetitive singing, chanting - The 4 creatures in heaven say 'holy, holy, holy is the lord God almight' and they say it forever (Rev 4:8). Maybe we ought to do the same.

Clearing the mind, emotionalism Anti-intellectual - Nothing wrong with emotionalism. We all should be emotional about Jesus's death. Even King David was so emotional for God that he danced to the point of disrobing himself (2 Sam 6:14-22).

Leaders Rich - Why is this even an issue?? LOL