News "they" don't want you to have.

[dignitized]

Palestinian Defilement of Old Testament Burial Site Ignored by Mainstream Media

By Jim Brown

March 6, 2003

(AgapePress) _ A former presidential candidate says not one individual in the Palestinian community is emerging as a leader that can be trusted.

The Palestinians recently broke a pledge to protect the grave of the biblical patriarch Joseph. Arab vandals desecrated the burial site last month in the town of Nablus __ or Shechem, as it is referred to in the Old Testament.



Pro_Israel activist Gary Bauer says sadly, as bad as Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has been, the alternatives to him are in some ways bigger "thugs" than he is. He says that is why is he remains skeptical of President Bush's continued call for the creation of a Palestinian state.

"I think the Palestinians are still committed to the destruction of the state of Israel," Bauer says. "And I think if Christian religious sites fall under the control of the Palestinian Authority ... we will see more tragedies like the one that occurred at Joseph's grave."

Bauer notes that desecration the of Joseph's tomb received scant media attention worldwide and elicited little outrage outside Israel, even though the Palestinians reneged on a promise to protect the site. He says things would have been quite different had the tomb been that of a Muslim leader.

"If a Muslim religious site under the control of either Christians or of Prime Minister [Ariel] Sharon's government in Israel was desecrated in this way, it would be the lead item on the evening news," he says.

And it likely would not stop there, Bauer adds. "We would have an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council, there would be resolutions condemning Israel, and there would probably be riots in the streets of those countries where Islam prevails," he says. "So the double standard here is extraordinary."

An Israeli government spokesman said the desecration of Joseph's tomb showed the moral bankruptcy of the Palestinian Authority. An Israeli news agency has reported that Israel defense forces may restore a Jewish civilian presence to Joseph's tomb.

© 2003 AgapePress all rights reserved.

[dignitized]

Palestinians Already Have a State, Coalition Says


By Chad Groening
March 5, 2003

(AgapePress) - A national coalition of Christians and Jews is trying to educate Americans on the truth about the Palestinian question.

The National Unity Coalition for Israel is calling its campaign "Chutzpah - The Battle for Truth." Coalition president Esther Levens says far too many people do not understand that there has never been a historical place called Palestine -- and that so-called "Palestinians" already have a state, called Jordan.

"Jordan really is, in effect, a Palestinian state already in existence," Levens says. "It represents 76% of the British mandate that was supposed to be all of Israel, really, but that piece was chopped off and given to the Saudi Kingdom."

Levens adds there has never really been a historical group of people known as Palestinians.

"The Palestinians are sort of a created group -- people who were living maybe in tents throughout what is now Israel," she explains. "Really it was never a state, and the Palestinian people were never defined differently from the Arabs. Their language is the same [and] their culture is the same."

Levens says more than 70% of Jordan's population is Palestinian, so there is no need to further carve up Israel. She says in fact, the Palestinians are being used as "pawns" in the Arab world's effort to destroy the Jewish state.

© 2003 AgapePress all rights reserved

[MissytheButterfly]

Hmm.. I find the Agape press questionable.. I have read many of their articles and they seem to always have some underhanded agenda..

Missy

[Pray4Isrel]

Thank you for the articles, Br Max...
Here is a site I think you would like as well:
www.infoclick.org/conflict.html
I definitely agree that there is a double standard as it is explained in the first article you posted.
I also agree that very few are actually informed of the situation of Jordan in relation to a Palestinian state.
The site above is a great resource.

[Auntie]

A few weeks ago, I read about the vandals desecrating Joseph's grave, and I wondered WHY there wasn't worldwide outrage about it!! :(


It burns me up:mad: , the total disrespect for JOSEPH!!!:cry:

[Pray4Isrel]

Amen Auntie!

[Didymus]

I guess I am missing something here. I mean desecrating a grave is an insult but why does it matter if it is Joseph s ? And how do they know it is his grave anyway ? and he is dust by know so what could they deacrate ? i am very pro-israel but i just don t get why everyone is so angry ?

[Auntie]

Today at 07:03 PM Didymus said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701702#post701702)

i am very pro-israel but i just don t get why everyone is so angry ?



I love Joseph, and it upsets me the same as if someone had desecrated the grave of any of my loved ones.

[Didymus]

I guess i am too tired to think tonight. i don t love Joseph--sure he was a great man and his grave should have been left alone but I don t think he cares. A few months ago vandels wrecked sometombstones in a local cemetary and yes they were caught and were punished but even then i didn t get why people were so upset. The dead are dead and you can t do anything for them. my mother gets annoyed with me every memorial day because I don t spend a fortune on flowers for my grandparents graves. they re dead If they were alive I would buy them anything they wanted but worrying about graves is pointless to me.

[Didymus]

for got to say--If my child s grave was desecrated I woould be angry but i know they aren t hurting her just a piece of rock so while i would press charges i wouldn t be out for blood.

[Pray4Isrel]

Think of Joseph thousands of years ago and the fact that his grave is still there today! Can you imagine his grave being desecrated? So sad... thousands of years old.
Having been to Israel helps but his grave is not speculative it is the actual "proven" grave.
It angers me that something so special, a landmark of history so to speak has been desecrated.

[Didymus]

I still don t get it. Now if a synagouge had been desecrated that would make very angry.

[Pray4Isrel]

Anything desecrated is a sign of disrepect and rebellion.

It hurts my heart to hear of any of these sites that has been desecrated.  History is important to me.

[Didymus]

I enjoy history too and we can learn from it but the living are more important then the dea. I don t expect you to understand my viewpoint on this as it strems from my upbringing which is too complicated to go into here. The most i can say is i am sory you are upset.

[Pray4Isrel]

Thank you.

[Ruhama]

The dead are dead but history is alive so long as it is able to be preserved. What makes me sad about this is to see how serious things have become, how deep the hate, that something - the memorial and memory of a great man - that has lasted and been reverenced through thousands of years of wars is now subject to even no respect.

The present, as always, destroys the heritage of the past.  It is a generation of devastation and foolishness, and for that I am afraid and saddened.

[keng]

Didymus, the dead are dead but the living are alive. These types of expressions throw gasoline on the fire of those who are envious and have no real reason for their wrath. If an archaeologist were to disturb the grave it would not be the same expression, there is at least some good intent. If we want to teach love we will uphold loving acts. What kind of turmoil is going on in the mind of those who do this? Is it good for them to do this?

[dignitized]

Those dirty underhanded Christians trying to get News out that expresses their world view! The NERVE!! We should all stick to CNN and the ultra liberal brainwashing News of the Left . . .

Sound silly?

No more than some other things said . . . .

8th March 2003 at 02:12 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=699538#post699538)

Hmm.. I find the Agape press questionable.. I have read many of their articles and they seem to always have some underhanded agenda..

Missy




 

 



 

[dignitized]

9th March 2003 at 08:26 PM Didymus said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701723#post701723)

I guess i am too tired to think tonight. i don t love Joseph--sure he was a great man and his grave should have been left alone but I don t think he cares. A few months ago vandels wrecked sometombstones in a local cemetary and yes they were caught and were punished but even then i didn t get why people were so upset. The dead are dead and you can t do anything for them. my mother gets annoyed with me every memorial day because I don t spend a fortune on flowers for my grandparents graves. they re dead If they were alive I would buy them anything they wanted but worrying about graves is pointless to me.



 

The death of their physical self does not negate the example they left or the respect they are due. Joseph is a Patriarch of the Jewish people - and thus of Christians as well. Joseph was a Christ figure - a Precursor to Jesus himself. Joseph was also a man of God.

Would you be so inclined if it were your grandmothers grave that was desecrate? What if some one dug up your grandmother and gave her bones to dogs and Chew toys? What if it were John the Apostles grave or John Calvin’s? Would you be so lax in your response then?




 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 05:21 PM Br. Max said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=713212#post713212)

Those dirty underhanded Christians trying to get News out that expresses their world view! The NERVE!! We should all stick to CNN and the ultra liberal brainwashing News of the Left . . .

Sound silly?

No more than some other things said . . . .


Oh goodness.. you went all the way back to post number 3 to make a gripe at me.. grow up dude.. grow up.  Doing that is what is silly and childish no less.  :(

 

Missy 



   

   



 

[Auntie]

Today at 01:29 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=713485#post713485)




....grow up dude.. grow up.




What an insulting thing to say! Very rude, and antagonistic.:(

[Alabare]

As a Gentile, I believe the Bible that the Jewish People have provided the light for us. It is an abomination to think what the Palasinitans are doing. The Bible is very clear that whoever blesses Jerusalem will be blessed. History shows that eventually EVERY country that opposes the Jewish people fall. We need to keep her in our prayers. Arise Jerusalem and be Blessed.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 07:45 PM Auntie said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=713513#post713513)




What an insulting thing to say! Very rude, and antagonistic.:(




Auntie, I would agree if I had said that simply out of the blue. But it was a response to this:

Those dirty underhanded Christians trying to get News out that expresses their world view! The NERVE!! We should all stick to CNN and the ultra liberal brainwashing News of the Left . . .

Sound silly?

No more than some other things said . . . .

With this quoted right after that in the same post:

Hmm.. I find the Agape press questionable.. I have read many of their articles and they seem to always have some underhanded agenda..Missy



That's what I find rather rude and antagonistic.. but everyones entitled to their own opinion.


 

[dignitized]

Missy: if you have a gripe against me you are supposed to bring it to me first in private. That is according to scriptures you are. :( I have not had the opportunity to spend much time checking up on some threads as other people have. I commented on post 3 when I saw post #3.

[dignitized]

Abbas: Puppet Or Power?
With Arafat still around, how much authority a Palestinian prime minister will wield is unclear.
Joshua Mitnick - Special To The Jewish Week

Ramallah, West Bank — Was it an innocent error of Arabic grammar or a Freudian slip?

Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat had come before the central committee of the Palestinian Liberation Organization to nominate his deputy, Mahmoud Abbas, as prime minister. But Arafat’s botched pronunciation of a word tense implied a passive role for the newly created executive instead of the unprecedented power-sharing pulpit demanded for months by the United States, Europe and members of his own Fatah party.

The PLO delegates were quick to correct Arafat, who graciously accepted the tweaking. The hushed auditorium promptly dissolved into the laughter of comic relief.

Intentional or not, Arafat had stumbled upon the main tension underlying the series of meetings this week intended to formalize a new power center in the Palestinian political landscape.

Would the position be invested with enough authority to give Abbas any real strength to operate independently, or would he function as a democratic window dressing like in other Arab countries? And would Arafat let Abbas, one of the first Palestinian politicians to openly criticize the militarization of the Palestinian uprising, direct peace negotiations with Israel or would the new prime minister be confined to domestic issues?

The upshot was a compromise that Palestinian legislators called a historic impingement on Arafat’s previously absolute authority in running Palestinian government affairs. After holding out for days on accepting the post, a maneuver calculated to ratchet up the pressure on Arafat to relinquish some of his powers, Abbas was expected to give his consent to the nomination.

“This is a starting point,” said Nabil Amr, a former Palestinian cabinet member and a leader of a group within Fatah to push the government to undertake sweeping reforms and clean up corruption. “There was international pressure on this issue, but I think the Palestinians want to see a real prime minister with clear authorities and constitutional authorities.”

Under a draft of a law defining the powers of the prime minister, Abbas will get a range of authority such as the appointment of cabinet ministers, day-to-day managerial oversight of the government, and control of some of the Palestinian security services.

Even so, the buck will still stop with Arafat, who will retain the power to dismiss the prime minister and the ultimate authority to sign any peace treaties. Many believe the real powers of Abbas have yet to be determined. The strength of the prime minister will depend on how well he works with a politician who has never had to share power.

“It’s hard to outmaneuver Arafat, but at least [Abbas] can challenge him. It’s one step in the marginalizing of Arafat,” said Hillel Frisch, a political science professor at Bar-Ilan University. “It is unprecedented that someone seeks real prerogative with lasting impact.”

Some Palestinian observers noted that true reform would be impossible until elections are held. Palestinians blamed the postponement of a Jan. 19 vote on Israel’s military presence in the West Bank.

Abbas, nicknamed Abu Mazen, was one of the founding members of the PLO and was responsible for secret talks with left-wing Israelis in the 1980s. During the ’90s he led the Palestinian negotiating team that negotiated the Oslo Accords and was a signatory to the 1993 Declaration of Principles. In recent months, he led the Fatah’s effort during talks in Cairo to reach a cease-fire with Islamic militants like Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Although Abbas has worked closely with Arafat, the relationship has been tense at times. In September, with Arafat holed up in his Ramallah headquarters surrounded by the Israeli army, Abbas held a meeting in his house to discuss forcing Arafat to appoint a prime minister.

Abbas’ dovish positions on negotiations with Israel have hurt his popularity among everyday Palestinians, many of whom have grown disillusioned with the peace process. But he still has the support of Palestinian military figures like Jibril Rajoub, the dismissed commander of Palestinian forces in the West Bank.

The appointment drew a measured response from officials in the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, which for months has pressed for a change in the Palestinian leadership — specifically Arafat — before moving ahead with any sort of peace process. Few Israelis and Palestinians believe that Abbas is in a position right now to rein in Palestinian militants.

“Ultimately the test will be a test of execution,’’ said Israeli Health Minister Danny Naveh. “The test is whether we see a change that’s not only cosmetic … but a true change in which the Palestinian Authority is moving. It’s still too early to say that.”

But Abbas’ success will depend also to a large extent on whether Israel eases up its occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. In the last year, the pounding has helped strengthen popular support for Islamic groups opposing the government, such as Hamas.

Israeli opposition politicians who see Abbas’ appointment as a sign of progress on reform warned Sharon against any provocative military action that might crush the fragile new mandate given to the Palestinian prime minister.

“There is an important move going on in the Palestinian Authority, and we must be sensitive,” said Matan Vilnai. “Maybe there is a chance to begin halting this crazed terrorism and the bloodbath, and reach something else. It would be easy to cause this move to fail.”

[MissytheButterfly]

Yesterday at 09:16 PM Br. Max said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=713680#post713680)

Missy: if you have a gripe against me you are supposed to bring it to me first in private. That is according to scriptures you are. :( I have not had the opportunity to spend much time checking up on some threads as other people have. I commented on post 3 when I saw post #3.




Follow your own advice.. I don't have any gripe against you and if I did.. I'd say it and you know it. If you have an issue with how I give my opinion on something simply avoid responding to it. I would be absolutely fine with you doing that.

God bless and take care I wish to carry this no further with you.

Missy

[dignitized]

I have tried to make peace both publicly and privately.

[MissytheButterfly]

LOL! :holy: :D  

[sklippstein]

Yesterday at 11:13 PM MissytheButterfly said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=714432#post714432)

LOL! :holy: :D  



He's tried to make peace with u and u laugh?


:(

[Ruhama]

I think that was a laugh of disbelief.

[MissytheButterfly]

Exactly..

Missy

[dignitized]

I will thank you then missy, to keep your personal animosity towards me out of the public forums. If you cannot deal with me as an adult in a civil manner - refrain atleast from the juvenile comments.

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 03:47 AM Br. Max said this in Post #32 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=716156#post716156)

I will thank you then missy, to keep your personal animosity towards me out of the public forums. If you cannot deal with me as an adult in a civil manner - refrain atleast from the juvenile comments.




There is no "personal" matter of any kind between us. You don't cross my mind enough. Take care and God bless you. ;)

Toodles,

Missy

 

[notto]

When did the destruction of the grave happen? The only reference I can find has it happening in 2000. Has there been something recent that happened?

[Pray4Isrel]

This thread is closed.
Everyone please remember the forum rules for future posting.

Notto, my apologies for having to close this thread. You have some great questions and I would love for you to start a new thread here so that someone can answer them for you. I apologize for the immature behavior displayed here and hope that this will not deter your questions from being answered.