Lutherans and "them catholics"

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

For so long the relations between Roman Catholics and Lutherans have not been lets just say the best. I still know many people today who were either raised on the concept or came by their own understanding that catholics are "terrible christians" or sometimes accused of not being Christian at all. But I think that the recent decades have forced us to challenge that thought. Starting with Vatican II (the first Catholic Council to include prodestants) to all the efforts of John Paul II to the "Join Document on Justification" (though it should be noted that most people believe there are still discussions regarding this issue that should be made and many Lutheran Theologians actually responded against this document). But many changes and ecumenical efforts, nonetheless have been made. So much that there has also been a number of Lutherans who returned to catholocism because of all its changes. So what do think? Feel free to comment on any extent of this relationship as I am intentionally trying to leave it open. You can discuss salvation, communion, simple relations, good efforts, bad efforts, what else should be done, etc. All I ask is for reasoning for whatever you say and that no matter your opinion a level of respect be maintained...although I don't think that to be a problem. Peace be with you! :crosseo:

[IowaLutheran]

I have a great fondness for Catholicism, because I have a great deal of respect for tradition, history, and liturgy. Lutheranism has suffered because it has thrown out the baby with the bath water in many situations. If given the choice between attending Catholic mass and a "praise" Lutheran service which consists of a bunch of people at the front of the sanctuary singing into microphones leading people singing Michael W. Smith songs where the words are flashed on video screens, I will choose attending the mass every time.

I am not Catholic because while the Joint Doctrine on Justification revealed that we can at least talk on the same page, Catholic doctrine in practice still doesn't quite get what it means to be saved by God's grace alone. IMHO God's grace is still muddled by the legalistic, bureaucratic nature of the Catholic Church. Despite all the errors of the modern Lutheran churches, grace is still at the center, as manifested by the law/gospel distinction and doctrine of "we are simultaneously saints and sinners".

[If Not For Grace]

IMHO God's grace is still muddled by the legalistic, bureaucratic nature


This is not just Catholic or Lutheran, the Baptist's preach grace then "add on".

I wish we could just be more accepting to disagree on the minutia

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

This is not just Catholic or Lutheran, the Baptist's preach grace then "add on".

I wish we could just be more accepting to disagree on the minutia
Forgive my ignorance, "minutia", what does that mean?

[IowaLutheran]

Forgive my ignorance, "minutia", what does that mean?

The small details.

[stumpjumper]

I was Baptised Catholic and my mother's side of the family still has a lot of Catholic members... I enjoy Catholic mass, have a great deal of Catholic friends, and attended a Catholic college so I'm very open to Catholicism...

That being said, I still believe that some Catholic dogma is either ascriptural, or even contra-scriptural in some cases, and so I feel at home both liturgically and theologically in a Lutheran Church...

[RegularGuy]

I was Baptised Catholic...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you were Baptized in a Catholic church. Being baptized made you a Christian, not a Catholic. I believe that both Lutherans and Catholics would agree.

[St_AnthonyofPadua]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you were Baptized in a Catholic church. Being baptized made you a Christian, not a Catholic. I believe that both Lutherans and Catholics would agree.
Yeppers

[Tetzel]

I have a great fondness for Catholicism, because I have a great deal of respect for tradition, history, and liturgy. Lutheranism has suffered because it has thrown out the baby with the bath water in many situations. If given the choice between attending Catholic mass and a "praise" Lutheran service which consists of a bunch of people at the front of the sanctuary singing into microphones leading people singing Michael W. Smith songs where the words are flashed on video screens, I will choose attending the mass every time.



I am of the opposite opinion. Bad music is annoying, but bad doctrine is a much more serious problem. If I need to sit through praise music in order to hear a sermon which properly distinguishes law and gospel, so be it.

[progressivegal]

My Paternal Grandfather was Lutheran and then converted to Catholicism when he married his first wife. His second wife, my grandmother was also Catholic so my dad was raised Catholic, as was my mom, and as was I. All of my Dad's realatives on his fathers side are Lutheran (Missouri Synod no less). My Dad always had great things to say about Lutherans, he never showed any sense of being prejudice against them or being shown a prejudice from them because he was Catholic. I also grew up next door to a Dominican nun who has always had a very fond opinion of Lutherans. That's just my experience tough. for the record I LOVE visiting Lutheran churhes, I love that I know the songs and I love the litergy, but certain things that bothered me about RomanCatholic curches are absent. I would not hesitate to attend an RC or a Lutheran Church or to doubt the Christianity of a person of either denomination (Though I know Roman Catholicism isn't technically a denomination, my parents always referred to it as such though :)).

[catlover]

For so long the relations between Roman Catholics and Lutherans have not been lets just say the best. I still know many people today who were either raised on the concept or came by their own understanding that catholics are "terrible christians" or sometimes accused of not being Christian at all. But I think that the recent decades have forced us to challenge that thought. Starting with Vatican II (the first Catholic Council to include prodestants) to all the efforts of John Paul II to the "Join Document on Justification" (though it should be noted that most people believe there are still discussions regarding this issue that should be made and many Lutheran Theologians actually responded against this document). But many changes and ecumenical efforts, nonetheless have been made. So much that there has also been a number of Lutherans who returned to catholocism because of all its changes. So what do think? Feel free to comment on any extent of this relationship as I am intentionally trying to leave it open. You can discuss salvation, communion, simple relations, good efforts, bad efforts, what else should be done, etc. All I ask is for reasoning for whatever you say and that no matter your opinion a level of respect be maintained...although I don't think that to be a problem. Peace be with you! :crosseo:

Sorry, some folks get sick of sexism and homophobia. I believe Catholics are Christians, but those in charge of the RC use God as an excuse to hold sexist views towards women, and fear of sex as an excuse to hold bigoted views against homosexuals.

[BachMania]

For so long the relations between Roman Catholics and Lutherans have not been lets just say the best. I still know many people today who were either raised on the concept or came by their own understanding that catholics are "terrible christians" or sometimes accused of not being Christian at all. But I think that the recent decades have forced us to challenge that thought. Starting with Vatican II (the first Catholic Council to include prodestants) to all the efforts of John Paul II to the "Join Document on Justification" (though it should be noted that most people believe there are still discussions regarding this issue that should be made and many Lutheran Theologians actually responded against this document). But many changes and ecumenical efforts, nonetheless have been made. So much that there has also been a number of Lutherans who returned to catholocism because of all its changes. So what do think? Feel free to comment on any extent of this relationship as I am intentionally trying to leave it open. You can discuss salvation, communion, simple relations, good efforts, bad efforts, what else should be done, etc. All I ask is for reasoning for whatever you say and that no matter your opinion a level of respect be maintained...although I don't think that to be a problem. Peace be with you! :crosseo:
Despite all of the outward similarities and the joint declaration, Roman Catholics and Lutherans have profound differences in soteriology. Catholics still maintain that grace is a substance infused into the soul making a person righteous enough to merit salvation.

As reformed theologian R.C. Sproul put it in his book, "Faith Alone," in Roman Catholic theology grace makes merit possible and in Reformation theology merit and grace are opposites.

In RC theology justification is a real empirical change in the human heart, a change in one's mode of being. In Reformation theology justification is a declaration and a change in status.

These are profound differences.

[UberLutheran]

Well, I married one of "them Catholics" so I guess I don't have any real problem with it!

Granted, I have problems with some Catholic doctrines and dogmas -- Papal infallibility (don't believe in it), Purgatory (ditto); but since I'm not Catholic these doctrines don't apply to me.

Actually, I get along just fine with my Catholic inlaws. I wish I could say the same for my ultra-fundamentalist extended family of origin who believe that Lutherans are going to Hell because they're not part of "The Elect" as demonstrated by the fact that we Lutherans drink wine during our services, read our prayers out of a book, and have female pastors!

[JoyforJESUS]

I am not sure what to make of this thread. But I will give my impressions.

Lutherans believe in the CHurch Universal. In my lifetime i do not see that there will be a reunification of the Roman Catholic chruch and the Lutheran Churches.

There are seven sacraments in the Catholic Church
Baptism (http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=1)
Penance/Reconciliation (http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=4)
Eucharist (http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=2)
Confirmation (http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=3)
Matrimony (http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=7)
Holy Orders (http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=6)
Extremunction or Anointing of the Sick (http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/sacrament.php?id=5)for an over view visit: http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/newman/Pages/fr-sevensacraments.html

this is a simple statement of the Sacrements of the Lutheran Church

A sacrament is a sacred act instituted by God in which God Himself has joined His Word of promise to the visible element, and by which He offers, gives and seals the forgiveness of sins earned by Christ. In his Small Catechism, Martin Luther described the sacraments that the Lutheran church recognizes -- Holy Baptism (http://www.emmanuelypsi.org/believe/sacraments.html#baptism) and Holy Communion (http://www.emmanuelypsi.org/believe/sacraments.html#communion).

to see what the ELCA states of their Beliefs visit:
http://www.elca.org/communication/brief.html

While there are differences there are a great number of things that we do believe in together as Christian, both capital "C" Catholics and small "c" catholics.

These are just a few of my thoughts.

[TheCosmicGospel]

There was a day when a Catholic and Lutheran would have walked on opposite sides of the street to avoid the other. I think those days are gone for most of us. That is for the better. We have clear distinctives. But we also hold so some things in common. I would like to think that we can hold to both without apology.

Peace and Joy,
Cosmic

[KagomeShuko]

We have more in common than we have differences. I know we are often criticized for the JDDJ, but I really think is is a step in the right direction. We are Christians and that needs to be acknowledged. I always feel that by saying that there is some Pope that will be the antichrist (how else is the "seat of the pope" the antichrist?) that the Catholics are being wrongfully judged.

http://www.elca.org/mosaic/RomanCatholic/index.ht

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I've love for this to be a general discussion in the general forum, if someone would like to begin a thread there on it, or if the opening poster wouldn't mind transfering the thread there.

My entrance into Lutheranism was in large part via Catholicism, and I still cross myself, refer to her as "Our Lady" and occasionally turn on a Catholic channel I get for the Rosery. In many ways, Lutheranism seems like a very good form of Catholism - one void of the things that troubled me, PLUS much that is so rich (the Theology of the Cross, the Law/Gospel distinction, etc.).


Sorry for the intrusion...


Pax! (oh, there's another one!)


- Josiah

[KagomeShuko]

I've love for this to be a general discussion in the general forum, if someone would like to begin a thread there on it, or if the opening poster wouldn't mind transfering the thread there.

My entrance into Lutheranism was in large part via Catholicism, and I still cross myself, refer to her as "Our Lady" and occasionally turn on a Catholic channel I get for the Rosery. In many ways, Lutheranism seems like a very good form of Catholism - one void of the things that troubled me, PLUS much that is so rich (the Theology of the Cross, the Law/Gospel distinction, etc.).


Sorry for the intrusion...


Pax! (oh, there's another one!)


- Josiah
Josiah,

If this is you posting, you know how to start a thread in the forum and not have to transfer threads! I hope this wasn't you because the suggestion made here is not one that is a good for a staff member to make - JUST START A NEW THREAD!!!