Iraq

[panterapat]

Is there any significance to the fact that Iraq was once the "cradle of civilization" and may be where the Garden of Eden was located?

[Talmid HaYarok]

Don't know about the whole Garden of Eden thing, but...

there is definitely plenty of signifigance to the fertile crescent, Babylon, Baghdad, etc.

The U.S. has a short memory, they've already forgotten the lessons of going into Lebanon. :(

[panterapat]

I was looking for a spiritual significance.

[Blindfaith]

Good morning!

God had promised the land to Abraham and his descendants.  Remember God telling Abraham to go outside and attempt to count the stars?  That's how many descendants he'll have?  Iraq, i.e., Babylon, was part of the real estate package that God promised Abraham and his descendants, along with what is now Iran, Saudi Arabia (correct me if I'm wrong on this one), Egypt and one other one I'll have to research and find. 

 Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Even though the Jews had occupied these lands at one time, they've never fully controlled or have ruled them.  The time is coming when they will, according to God's covenant, which He never breaks. :)

I hope this vague answer helped? :sorry:

[Talmid HaYarok]

Note though that this land was promised to the descendants of Abraham, and not specifically to the children of Israel.

Then keep in mind that Arabs are also children of Abraham.  ;)

So even without the Jews, the Lord is still fulfilling his promise to Abraham. His promises never fail.

[Pray4Isrel]

Amen BlindFaith!

[Blindfaith]

Descendants of Abraham can also be taken as those who believe in the Messiah, from the line of Judah, Jews and Gentiles alike. :)

You have to admit ~ with Jews and Gentiles alike, that's a whole lot of stars to be counting ;).

I don't buy the Arab theory, if they don't believe that Christ is the Messiah. If they believe he's just a nice prophet guy who performed some pretty neat miracles, that isn't enough to get to the "inheritance".

Sorry...I'm digressing. The subject was Iraq and the promised land, right?

*ugh*......me bad.

[Talmid HaYarok]

The Lord established a covenant with a conditional blessing upon the descendants of Israel.

He also made a promise to Abraham and a blessing upon his son Ishmael.

Genesis 15:2 already dealt with the issue of adopted children, this is how Abraham expected the promise to be fulfilled because they were childless. Verses 3 and 4 assure us that those who fulfill his promise shall be his genetic descendants.

Now the covenant with Israel must be fulfilled through Israel. The Lord doesn't accept any replacements. For the gentiles there is a new covenant, not a replacement of the old one.

If the Lord gave the land to an adopted slave child then he would be violating his word in Genesis 14:2-4. Israel also can not always possess the land because the covenant dictates blessings and curses. When they are cursed they can be driven from the land. So how to fulfill the promise to Abraham when Israel is not upholding the covenant with the Lord? Simple, he had 23 other children at least and one of them was especially blessed (His grandchild Edom was also special).

The Lord keeps his promises. Amen.

[MissytheButterfly]

Interesting Talmid. Very interesting.. I wondered about Ishmael's role and his descendants.. I would be interested in you elaborating even more on this if you feel up to it.

Bless you,
Missy

[Talmid HaYarok]

Well, I shouldn't spend much time on the forums right now... but I'm an addict.  :)

Ishmael is definitely set up to be the Lord's comparison people and why it isn't enough to simply be blessed by the Lord. The genealogies for instance are quite interesting, because its a parallel of Edom's and Israel's. 12 tribes of Ishmael, especially blessed by the Lord.

The only real difference is the covenant, and this is what is important! Even though the covenant comes with both blessings and curses (for keeping or disobeying) and you would think a people that are only blessed would be better off. Because what is really important is the relationship the covenant establishes with the people of Israel.

Anyways I'll go into this in more detail probably in another week or so after I've moved. I hope this is enough to get you started though!

[Blindfaith]

How can Ishmael's descendants be blessed by God when they're the "fathers" of Islam? That makes no sense to me, unless I'm reading you wrong Talmid.

[Ruhama]

Well it depends what the blessing was. I don't know what other blessings he may have gotten but this is what I remember:

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

So that isn't a blessing in the sense of "in God's favor" I'd say, but rather is a blessing in the sense of being given a positive promise.

[panterapat]

Talmid HaYarok,

I'll be anxously awaiting a continuation.

blindfaith,

Ishamel was the first son of Abraham (with his slave girl for Sarah was thought to be sterile) Then the angel visited Abraham and Sarah and promised a child. Issac was then born and Ishamel was then banished. Iccac is the line of Judeism and Ishamel is the line of Islam. However, they are BOTH decendants of Abraham.

I think that the anomosity between Ishmeal & Issac has ramifications for the conflict we are experiencing today. This added to the fact that Iraq is in the furtile crescent (the cradle of civilization) thought to be the location of the Garden of Eden. It seems that ancient hatreds are reemerging in a biblical way.

Any thoughts on this by anyone???

In Christ, Patrick

[Ruhama]

I can't help keep thinking that Islam, while the dominant religion among Arabs, really hasn't been around long. It is widespread today due to political conquest. Before that, the Middle East had many religions, not insignificant among which was (and is) Christianity. Therefore I prefer to say that Isaac was the child of the Covenant, the promise and the inheritor of Abraham's "walk" with God, and Ishmael merely went the way of the world (though God has kept him in mind). 

[Talmid HaYarok]

The verses that Ruhama quoted, Genesis 16, and Genesis 25:12-18 all apply to Ishmael. Note that the Lord established the twelve tribes of Ishmael before he was even born. Coincidence? - coincidences aren't worth mentioning in the bible.

If Ishmael's children can't be blessed because some of them created Islam, how can any other pagan people be blessed?

The Lord is establishing to the people's in Genesis how to make a "Great Name". First we have the people of Babel who try to do it on their own, they fail miserably and to this day we have people failing at doing it on their own. So the Lord picks a member from the people of the "Name" (Semites - from the Hebrew word Shem: Name).

Ishmael is also another counterexample, is a blessing or gift from the Lord sufficient? No, only the covenantal relationship with the Lord is sufficient for his great work, to establish a great name for a people, and for salvation and deliverance.

The Ishmaelites shows the orphan nations (gentiles) that it isn't enough to be a "Prodigal Son" who receives an inheritance from the Lord (an impersonal, gift-giving G-d; which is coincidentally how Islam portrays G-d) and goes on with "their" destiny seeking their own way.

The covenant, even though it comes with blessings and curses is superior to just being blessed by the Lord because it means you go on as a part of "his" destiny.

As also pointed out, the Arabs give the Lord a way of fulfilling his promise to Abraham even when he must fulfill his curses to the Jews of the Covenant. A warning to all those in covenant with the Lord (New and/or Old) he will still uphold his end of the covenant and fulfill the promises with you.

My reply of the night, because I just can't keep away from this thread. :)

[panterapat]

Does Islam and Judeism worship the same God but in a different way?

[Ruhama]

No. The Qur'an says that Jewish and Christian scriptures are corrupted, and that Jesus is not the Son of God. Along with a number of other things, the God portrayed in the Qur'an is more hostile, unforgiving and controlling than the God of the Bible. Definitely not the same God (although yes, Muslims believe it is).

[panterapat]

So I take it that Jews and Muslims worship the same God- The God of Abraham- But their understanding of, and worship of this God, are different.

 

So this means that Jews, Muslims, and Christians, all worship the God of Abraham but with different understandings of His being.

 

Veeery Interesting!

 

In Christ, Patrick 

[Ruhama]

No. This is what I used to think, but it isn't really true. I mean, that is if you are speaking in a strictly spiritual sense.

Mormons, Baha'is, Jehovah's Witnesses, plenty of people all think they worship the same God. But the important thing is the spirit behind it. Is it the true God, or is he merely given the same name?

[Talmid HaYarok]

Yes, and I'll add to what Ruhama said in that all those that Ruhama listed and Islam came out of the error of replacement theology.

Out of the sin which cut off the congregations of the Jews has come only a host of evils and deceits from the true church.

[MissytheButterfly]

In my personal opinion one does not have to believe that Jesus is the son of God in order to worship the God of Abraham. I mean Abraham himself believed in God and didn't even know Jesus was the Messiah..why ? because Abraham was before Jesus' earthly time.

So to say Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham is not exactly accurate. Muslims just don't worship him in the way Christians and Jews feel is proper. That's different than not looking to the same God as the one true God..

I for one most definitely believe that Ishmael/Issac conflict is because Issac is the descendant from the Jewish line which God originally had planned but Abraham slept with the Egyptian hand maid woman named Hagar producing Ishmael. Ishmael was not the seed that the Jewish people were to be lineaged through, Issac was, but Ishmael was not forgotten and still promised a covenant with God. And that conflict comes about because Ishmael's people are Arabs.

If you take a look Genesis 16. You will see that the angel of the Lord spoke to Hagar and told her this:

9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Ishmael means "God Hears" and was intended to remind Hagar of God's intervention on her behalf. Ishmael is to become a wild man and shall dwell in the presence of all his brethern. The Hebrew actually means "in defiance/disreguard of" as shown in Genesis 25:18 and Deut. 21:16. The contexts shows a hostility on the part of Ishmael (and his descendants) toward his brethern (Issac and his descendants) and even among Ishmael's own people ( CLUE CLUE.. ERRRRR SOUND FAMILAR ???) . All this began the Jewish and Arab conflict, due to an act of the flesh of Abraham.

In today's society, many people do not wish to accept this because they cannot see past some of the ways Arabs live and most definitley Christians and Jews because of the hostility that lies way back to the days of Issac and Ishmael. They cannot accept that God would make a promise to an Arab. Well the fact is Arabs are indeed descendants of Abraham and all you have to do is read the bible to find that out. Reguardless of how one views the Arabs, they too are children of a covenant with God..and YES that's right the God of Abrabham. We all look at the Arabs and think of terriorism and so forth and think, "Oh no, God doesn't have anything to do with them..not OUR God". Well God does have something to do with them indeed since he made the covenant to their mother Hagar.

I mean hasn't anyone noticed how Arabs look ? Abraham was a Jew and the handmaid Hagar was Egyptian. Now think to what a Jew and a Egyptian look like (and I mean a Jew from Israel and a Egyptian from Africa, not what we see in America today, I mean people from the actual land)..

Now think, what kind of child would they produce ? What would they look like.. And darn if they don't look like ARABS! Ever notice the features of an Arab ? if you look closely you can see why they have their olive skin tone (Egyptian genes) and you if you look REALLY closely you can see the Jewish genes in them as well especially in the facial features.

Take a look at these pictures:

These are 2 Arabs:

http://www.acsamman.edu.jo/~ms/immigration/cia/images/arab2.gif



These are Jews in a synaguoge in Israel:
http://www.him.co.il/gg/images//161.jpg 

They almost look like the same sort of people..funny.. :rolleyes:

It's easier for most to put God in a box to try to rationalize our small understanding of him, and disreguard facts that are starring us in the face.. Why ? Because we cannot accept something outside of the box we have put God in. But God cannot be put into a small convient box to make one's conscience feel better. He is a mystery to many and will remain to be so until he does otherwise.

So instead of reacting poorly to Arabs (because of what you see in the news media) perhaps it may be more wise to understand that they too have a covenant with God through Ishmael..perhaps we don't understand why but that covenant does exist.. and not all Arabs are these terroristic animals that the media makes them out to be..

 Note: This is not directed at any one person. It is to show another view point of a subject to anyone willing to look at it, if you aren't then simply disreguard it. If anyone takes offense take it up with God please because he made the covenant with them, I didn't. I simply pointed it out.  



Missy

[Talmid HaYarok]

Well according to the Bible a covenant is exactly what they don't have. Ishmael got the blessing, Isaac got covenant.

When Abraham took Isaac up to the mountain, the Lord established the covenant through Isaac (even though its implied that Ishmael was there).

Second, the Eqyptians of today primarily are Arabs, so of course they look like them.  ;)  The original Egyptian people were already largely gone by Yeshua's time. Egypt went through long periods of rule by Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and the original Egyptian people were eventually no longer distinguishable.

Later on Muslim warriors swept into Egypt and made it predominatly Arab (though there were already some there).

[panterapat]

MissytheButterfly

Good post. I've been looking for this kind of information pertaining to Abraham's sons

In Christ, Patrick

[panterapat]

Talmid HaYarok

I also appreciate your contributions

Patrick

[MissytheButterfly]

I offer another perspective about Islam..

I took Comparative Religions in college and kept the book..like I keep ALL my books because I am a BOOK HOG! But seriously..check this out:
The book is called The Religious World: Communities of Faith

It says this: Islam was founded by Muhammad born around 570 C.E. Muhammad most profound moments came through the acts of solidarity meditaion and self-contemplation on Mount Hira. Out of these experiences emerged the prophetic call that was to alter daramatically Arab and world history in times to come.

During such one evening in a cave, Muhammad heard a voice. The words he heard heralded a series of revelations that were to come to him for the rest of his life. They are recorded in the Quran, which is for Muslims as faithful recording of the entire revelation of God through Muhammad, his chosen Prophet to humankind.

The basic themes of the early message were the majesty of the One, unique God: the futility of idol worship, the threat of judgment; and the neccesity of faith, compassion, and morality in human affairs. All these themes represented an attack on the materialism and idolatry prevalant to Mecca and among the Bedouins.

Muhammad drew comfort from the knowledge revealed to him about other prophets such as Abraham, Joseph, and Moses, each of whom had been persecuted, tested, and challenged by seemingly invincible forces.

I offer this to show a little of how Islam actually started... by the way, the book says the revelations started to Muhammad around 610 C.E.

Missy


 

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 08:29 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #22 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=699636#post699636)

Well according to the Bible a covenant is exactly what they don't have. Ishmael got the blessing, Isaac got covenant.

When Abraham took Isaac up to the mountain, the Lord established the covenant through Isaac (even though its implied that Ishmael was there).

Second, the Eqyptians of today primarily are Arabs, so of course they look like them.  ;)  The original Egyptian people were already largely gone by Yeshua's time. Egypt went through long periods of rule by Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and the original Egyptian people were eventually no longer distinguishable.

Later on Muslim warriors swept into Egypt and made it predominatly Arab (though there were already some there).



Talmid, A covenant is defined simply in reguards to religion as this in the American heritage dictionary: God's promise to the human race. And from Easton's Bible dictionary:


2.) The word is used with reference to God's
revelation of himself in the way of promise or of favour to men. Thus God's promise to Noah after the Flood is called a covenant (Gen. 9; Jer. 33:20, "my covenant"). We have an account of God's covernant with Abraham (Gen. 17, comp. Lev. 26:42), of the covenant of the priesthood (Num. 25:12, 13; Deut. 33:9;
Neh. 13:29), and of the covenant of Sinai (Ex. 34:27, 28; Lev. 26:15), which was afterwards renewed at different times in the history of Israel (Deut. 29;Josh. 1:24; 2 Chr. 15; 23; 29; 34; Ezra 10; Neh. 9). In conformity with human custom, God's covenant is said to be confirmed with an oath (Deut. 4:31; Ps.89:3), and to be accompanied by a sign (Gen. 9; 17). Hence the covenant is
called God's "counsel," "oath," "promise" (Ps. 89:3, 4; 105:8-11; Heb. 6:13-20;Luke 1:68-75). God's covenant consists wholly in the bestowal of blessing (Isa.59:21; Jer. 31:33, 34). The term covenant is also used to designate the regular succession of day and night (Jer. 33:20), the Sabbath (Ex. 31:16), circumcision
(Gen. 17:9, 10), and in general any ordinance of God (Jer. 34:13, 14). A "covenant of salt" signifies an everlasting covenant, in the sealing or ratifying of which salt, as an emblem of perpetuity, is used (Num. 18:19; Lev. 2:13; 2 Chr. 13:5). COVENANT OF WORKS, the constitution under which Adam was placed at his creation. In this covenant, <I>(1.)</I> The contracting parties were (a)
God the moral Governor, and (b) Adam, a free moral agent, and representative of all his natural posterity (Rom. 5:12-19).

So I was not incorrect in my description of a covenant entered into God with Hagar. A covenant with God is a promise that he makes with man, sometimes these are conditional other times they are not.

And I most definitley beg to differ on what Egyptians look like.. many actually believe Cleopatra was an Egyptian woman..but she was not..so that's a misconception that doesn't fall far from the "I know what someone is based on how they look" tree.

Lastly, Yeshua was not in earth as a human at the time of Abraham, Hagar, Sarah, Ishmael and Issac..so you saying that the people didn't look like the original people during Yeshua's times is rather moot considering I was talking about WAY BEFORE his time..

And Egyptians sure had to look a little different than a Jew otherwise there would be no designation on who is what.. It's rather uneducated yes to look at someone and assume you know what they are.. but people of same ethnicities do have similar features in some respect and that is a fact.. That's how people tell what someone is in yes, and rather uneducated or lowly educated way..when I look at a Black person, I don't mistake them for white, reguardless of whether that black person is as light as Mariah Carey or as dark as Flip Wilson...

&nbsp;

Missy




&nbsp;

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 08:45 PM panterapat said this in Post #23 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=699658#post699658)

MissytheButterfly

Good post. I've been looking for this kind of information pertaining to Abraham's sons

In Christ, Patrick



Welcome..

[MissytheButterfly]

Oh I had a question for anyone willing to answer it or give an opinion..

As I pointed out Islam was started by Muhammad..which of course he wasn't around at Ishmael's time.. So that means Ishmael's people weren't actually Muslim at least in his day.. so how do you think they worship God ? Do you think they worshipped him as the Jews did or were Ishmael's descendants pagans ?

Yeah, I know I could probably read and find out..but I would like to hear someone else's view points..

Missy

[MissytheButterfly]

Today at 08:29 PM Talmid HaYarok said this in Post #22 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=699636#post699636)

Well according to the Bible a covenant is exactly what they don't have. Ishmael got the blessing, Isaac got covenant.

When Abraham took Isaac up to the mountain, the Lord established the covenant through Isaac (even though its implied that Ishmael was there).

Second, the Eqyptians of today primarily are Arabs, so of course they look like them.&nbsp; ;)&nbsp; The original Egyptian people were already largely gone by Yeshua's time. Egypt went through long periods of rule by Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and the original Egyptian people were eventually no longer distinguishable.

Later on Muslim warriors swept into Egypt and made it predominatly Arab (though there were already some there).



Un oh.. Talmid, I think I owe you and apology. I just talked to my husband about what you posted here and he (my husband) is a Old Testament buff.. And he says that it depends on how one looks at the word covenant.. He says that you are more correct than myself in the term covenant because God did indeed make a covenant with Issac but it was more of a promise/blessing that he made with Ishmael's mother..

So I am TOTALLY sorry..you are correct in that respect and I was wrong.. I asked my husband because after I thought about it, I was like, "Uh oh..Talmid does sort of make sense there..let me ask the Old Testament genius (my husband)."

So sorry..my mouth wrote a check my tail couldn't cash..YIKES!&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;:( :eek: :sigh:

Missy


&nbsp;

[panterapat]

"Do you think they worshipped him as the Jews did or were Ishmael's descendants pagans ??

That is the crux of what I've been attempting to discover.

Patrick

[MissytheButterfly]

Exactly..that's what I am trying to figure out Pant.. because if Mahammad discovered Islam they certainly weren't Muslim and as we already know the Muslim worship only on God, which is Allah..

Does anyone know biblically how Ishmael's descendants worshipped ?

Ok.. bible scholars now is your chance! HELP!

Missy

[Talmid HaYarok]

The Bible doesn't talk about who or what the Arabs worshipped though so you can't go into it.

According to many Arab muslims I've talked to, their people were mainly polytheists before Islam came along. The shrine in Mecca was once a place where the many idols the arab tribes worshipped were set. I'm not sure this is any different from any of the other mesopotamian peoples though, including the Jews who often strayed into Idolatry.

Its also known that there were many Christian communities in Arabia back in the day. Besides the obvious Egyptian, Persian and Assyrian churches there are a few Christian communities on the Arabian peninsula known historically.

If you go to pre-Christian times, then I have no idea myself.

[Ruhama]

Well there's basically no historical evidence for how the Arabs in Arabia were worshiping aside from the Muslim writings which say that (a) there were Jews and Christians (mentioned in the Qur'an), and (b) polytheism was rampant (mentioned in tradition and implied in the Qur'an). However, there really isn't proof outside the literary sources to corroborate that.

As to before Christian times, I'd have to fall back to the same answer as Talmid, although I venture a guess that they were doing the same things the pagan nations were. I mean, how many nations are mentioned in the Bible? Edom, Moab, Assyria, Persia, Egypt... they all had various practices going on that were more or less similar to one another (i.e. similar cult practices, priesthoods and pantheons, and household gods of one sort or another. Even Israel did it.&nbsp;

Though, you know something, I wonder. Was Muhammad even a descendant of Ishmael? I mean I know the Arabs hold themselves to be, but really, did Ishmael go down to Arabia and live there only? Seems to me that the Ishmaelites probably spread everywhere, not just Arabia (because back then the Middle East wasn't Arab.&nbsp; Only Arabia was).

Maybe the people from whom Islam came weren't even descendants of Abraham.

[Talmid HaYarok]

The Ishmaelites were all over the middle-east even before Islam. Remember the twelve great tribes of Ishmael? Heh, I'm quite sure there were more tribes of Ishmael than that (just like the Israelites too :p )

Arabs were already in Palestina, Syria, and Egypt at the time. The Arabs of Syria were giving the Romans a tought time of it just a few centuries before.