Political Christianity - is it ultimately damaging?

[Kelly]

I don't know if you feel it, but the rift between the 'right' and the 'left' seems to get greater every day.

By trying to legistlate Judeo Christian values on such things as gay marriage, creationism taught in schools, 10 commandments in court houses, and even abortion - are we trying to impose our concepts of morality on a world that doesn't know our God?

Are we going to bring anyone to Christ by any of these things? WIll it spread the Good News? During Christ's ministry, he came to speak to people who already considered themselves one of God's children, people who called themselves religious. If others heard, great, but they weren't the primary target.

Why do we seem to care less about immigrants (even the illegal ones), the poor, equality, epidemics like AIDs, etc. These types of things are always on the front of the left's adgenda.

I hate abortion. But instead of outlawing it - should we be reaching out to those who are of the social/economic level more apt to consider it? Striving for our tax dollars to go for better schools, cheaper daycare, rights for mothers in the workplace?

We wrap the fight against gay marriage around 'protecting children', but why aren't we protesting divorce? Divorce hurts a greater percentage of kids BY FAR?

I think with each election we seem to have less and less compassion and worry more about protecting the status quo. This sounds a lot like the pharisees, doesn't it?

[Starcrystal]

Christians should be influencial in their communities and by extension that includes the political realm - but the battle of the right wingers vs. the left is rediculous. It turns people away from God when they see all the mudslinging.
You cannot legislate morality. Jesus didn't try it. He reached individual people.... and if enough individuals turn to God and do what they are supposed to then the state of the nation should naturally change.
Remember, it was Babylon the legislated that people MUST worship the God of heaven when Nebuchadnezar became impressed with Gods power, then later King Darius did the same thing. But it was enforced by law and soon enough people turned back to idolatry because God wasn't in their hearts - it was required by law so it was outward motions of worship only for most of the population. I'm afraid that's what happens in America when they try to legislate morality. Some people might obey because it is law, but their hearts say otherwise. And others just skirt the law and sneak and do it anyway.

So individual hearts need changed, and this is far more important than getting all caught up in politics and directing your energy into support of a temporal and fallible system.

Funny, after Wednesdays Bible study a friend of mine said they seem to harp on the gay issue more than other sins. It's true. Actually in our small rural community there are few if any gays. I think things need balanced out. Why not preach against gangs, and the destructiveness of the gangsta life style. How about the music that supports and promotes it? How about the dark metal music that promotes Satanism and promiscuity? And yes, I agree divorce is too prevelant and too easy to obtain.

And what about alcohol? They spend all these efforts on enforcing marijuana laws when it is so obvious that alcohol causes far more problems than marijuana. Why don't they? Because politicians like their drinks, and they also know prohibition didn't work in the 20s - more proof that legislating morality is nearly useless! But they sent soldiers down to Panama and Columbia to eradicate the marijuana trade.... and the pot smokers in the US just started growing their own in secret grow rooms... and making it stronger - so the legislation and enforcement, and millions of dollars wasted in central and South American countries was an excercise in futility. Then the politicians got rid of the pot there (also killing villagers and poisoning the land with herbacides like paraquot...) so they turned their eyes to Cocaine to try and get rid of that in Columbia and Peru. What happened? At least for awhile the amount of Cocaine coming into the US increased! So much for enforcement and the illusionary benefits of the "war on drugs." And not only that, crack Cocain started becoming more popular, and people started up domestic Meth labs to compensate for the hassles with Cocaine... so bottom line is these political moves designed to legislate morality (stopping drug trafficing and the availability of drugs to users) only backfired, cost billions of do9llars, and actually created more powerful and dangerous drugs as a result!

Bottom line.... change of heart, turn to the LORD, be born again, and by the Spirit stop sinning.

[dalej42]

Your comments actually sound like some of the sermons in my own gay church.

Here are some lines from one of the sermons:

We must speak boldly the true values of Christ:

Caring for the poor, the sick, and elderly;
Peace for all the earth;
Justice and equality for all God’s children;
And a place for every human in the family of God! We must live out these values by:

Generosity and compassion;
Direct dealing, forgiveness, and conflict resolution;
Working as hard to seek justice for others as we do for ourselves;
And practicing unconditional hospitality and grace with all.

[Joshua Howard]

This sounds a lot like the pharisees, doesn't it?


Bottom Line? No. You say there's a growing rift between the right and the left... Well first of all let's get it straight what we're talking about.

If you want to debate with me over systems of government I'm not going to stand in your way... but if you want to take liberal politics and and apply it to morality and religion, I've got a message for you... IT WON'T WORK.

There's alot of things that we as Christians fight over needlessly... denominational differiences and doctrinal arguments. But there's one thing that the Church has stood solid on for many years... and that is right and wrong.

It's people like you that make good and evil a matter of right against left when it should be a battle of right against wrong. There comes a time when everyone must choose a side and fight for it. There's no middle ground, folks.

Blind diplomacy that seeks to be positive at the cost of fundamental truth and virtue is the sleve that covers a cancerous wound. It's only a matter of time time till the cancer brings death... hidden or not.

[ROGER459]

(Matthew 5:13) Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

POLITICS, is the Largest RELIGION in America!

There are More Members than any Church

They will LIE, STEAL and CHEAT, to get their CANDIDATE elected.

They Often use the NEWS MEDIA, to back their Point of VIEW, EVEN THOUGH IT MAY GO AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD!

Ture Christianity, will HAVE a change on the Inside of MANKIND, and that will translate to the Outside! i.e. Into Society!

REMEMBER, Simon the Zealote? One of our Lord's Deciples? IF you will study their sect, they were Political Activisits!

When Simon followed Christ, DID HE CAMP OUT AT THE ROMAN BARRACKS IN PROTEST? NOT!

Yes, there is a time to speak out, AS I DID AT TERRI SHIAVO'S death camp! Yet I say MANY, that called the Name of Christ, = YELL AND SCREAM as Big Babbies, TO try and get their Point Across....!

AND yet, when I asked them, Have you prayed about what you are doing, "I was told, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.... WE'RE CHRISTIANS STANDING FOR TRUTH!"

I have pictures from there, if you want one, send me a PM.

Thanks, Roger459

[Starcrystal]

Your comments actually sound like some of the sermons in my own gay church.

Here are some lines from one of the sermons:

We must speak boldly the true values of Christ:

Caring for the poor, the sick, and elderly;
Peace for all the earth;
Justice and equality for all God’s children;
And a place for every human in the family of God! We must live out these values by:

Generosity and compassion;
Direct dealing, forgiveness, and conflict resolution;
Working as hard to seek justice for others as we do for ourselves;
And practicing unconditional hospitality and grace with all.


Ok I agree with all those values presented here, but the first comment, "My own gay church..." I just came from a thread where same sex marraige was brought up and I am just amazed at the (growing) number of "Christians" who ignore Gods position on this issue.
Post # 139
http://www.christianforums.com/t3753499-women-should-submit.html&page=14

Now there is a place for every person in the family of God, but the scripture is clear that God insists on REPENTANCE. John the Baptist preached it and Jesus preached it. Not some legalistic conformity, but a life of holiness before the LORD.
While there appears to be only a little in the New Testement dealing with homosexuality, there is plenty in the O.T.

Leviticus 20:13:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

No, we do not put them to death as that part of the law was done away with, but just because the Mosaic penalty was removed does not mean the SIN of the act was removed! That's where people make the error. Here is where the forgiveness and mercy comes in, but along with forgiveness and mercy we do not have to legalize or legitimize their sins! God forbid! Nor should people be permitted to teach such "gay" agendas to our young children in school. If people insist on living like that then do it in private, don't flaunt it. I think many Christians become intolerant because this so called "lifestyle" is flaunted to the point of being pushed on children in society.
How many husbands and wives go out in public and purposely make out, I mean REALLY make out passionately? Hold hands, kiss - yes, but few make out passionately. Yet homosexual men (I've witnessed personally) purposely will go out in public and passionately make out with each other so people will see them! They flaunt it, and add sin to sin by doing so.

Bottom line, while I agree with all the "values" I will not comprimise with certain issues that are obvious sins. I may be considered liberal or moderate in political views, I believe in socialized health care, protecting the environment, getting out of these wars we're in.... but in other ways I am considered a conservative: I oppose gay marraige and abortion, which the latter is nothing but cold blooded murder of an innocent life created by God.

Oh, "Beloved, let us love one another..." in 1st John means brotherly love, Christlike love. I've heard this and other verses twisted out of context by "gay" churches to condone their sins.

[JTLauder]

First of all, we are indeed called to live a Godly life both personally and collectively as a community/nation/etc. Second, the Bible also instructs us to respect and obey the authority of the governing party--regardless if they are "christian" or not.

In regards to the place of religion in politics, mostly what we have today, relgion is being used more as a leverage to gain the support of certain groups for votes--it's really not much more than that--actual almost everything a politician does is catered to gain as many votes as possible for himself. So I really don't trust any politician's expressed beliefs and opinions.

Anyway, I digres...although I believe politics and laws should be ethical and moral, I hold firm to the separatation of church and state. People should not be denied from practicing and saying what they want, such as expressed beliefs in school. But what I believe is that this country should not, can not, call itself a "Christian nation" even though Christianity may be the religious majority. I can only imagine that working in an ideal world where everyone agrees and follows Christianity. My problem is forced religion. We can and should follow moral and ethical principles, but we cannot force the particulars of one specific religion onto others, and that's what we would be doing by calling us a "Christian nation." This country is not prepared to do that. We would then be no different than an Islamic nation that forces its beliefs and practices on everyone and then kills off anyone who strays the least bit. I am very uncomfortable with the idea of America following course under the guise of "Christianity". If the example of Islamic countries is too far removed from our experiences to relate to, think about even the divides between Christianity. IF we were to officially declare this to be a "Christian nation", which "christianity" do we follow? Catholicism? Evangelical? Fundamentalist? Imagine forcing one church's practice onto everyone--even if everyone is a "christian".

As for the divide between the 2 major political US parties, it's really nothing more than the typical conflict between the preservation of self vs. the betterment of the greater community that has always existed between the two parties. The addition of religious fervor has only served to widen the gap with viciously heated onslaughts towards each other in a fight for power.

The Sojourners community (www.sojo.net (http://www.sojo.net)) is perhaps the only politically-minded organization that I know of that has a truely Biblically objective and correct stance in regards to religion and politics. It's purpose is following Biblical principles to promote social justice and working to influence government (whichever party is in power) towards that goal. They are not afraid to ask the hard questions and challenge everyone--to both Democrats and Republicans--to do what is right according to Biblical principles. Jim Wallis is one its founders and he has written a number of excellent books on the subject. The subtitle to his latest book, God's Politics, says it best: "Why the Right Gets it Wrong, and the Left Doesn't Get it."

[Wisdom's Child]

Politics is a man made thing......Voting is an expression of values and opinion.
If you believe in a set of values, and vote against those values, you have become a hypocrit, period.
The world would love for christians to get their morality out of the world. Do you think it will stop at politics? After that then what?
Expressing moral values in public will come under attack, reading the Bible will become "hate speach", in some areas that has already occurred.

How can someone be two faced?
Have one expressed belief about God, but express a different (opposing) viewpoint in the political realm.
Goverment should not be establishing religions, they should not be establishing Athiesm either. When you agree to separate God from Politics you are removing God from a part of YOUR life.
It is your choice, you are the Voter, politicians work at Your descretion and not the other way around.

Now the IRS is sending nasty grams to the churches, threatening their precious 501c3 tax exempt status if they do not remove themselves from the political arena.
I say to them.......Who do you serve? God or Mammon?
If the tax exempt money is enough to hush you from speaking the truth, then you are not walking boldly in faith.
Think about it

[linssue55]

I don't know if you feel it, but the rift between the 'right' and the 'left' seems to get greater every day.

By trying to legistlate Judeo Christian values on such things as gay marriage, creationism taught in schools, 10 commandments in court houses, and even abortion - are we trying to impose our concepts of morality on a world that doesn't know our God?

Are we going to bring anyone to Christ by any of these things? WIll it spread the Good News? During Christ's ministry, he came to speak to people who already considered themselves one of God's children, people who called themselves religious. If others heard, great, but they weren't the primary target.

Why do we seem to care less about immigrants (even the illegal ones), the poor, equality, epidemics like AIDs, etc. These types of things are always on the front of the left's adgenda.

I hate abortion. But instead of outlawing it - should we be reaching out to those who are of the social/economic level more apt to consider it? Striving for our tax dollars to go for better schools, cheaper daycare, rights for mothers in the workplace?

We wrap the fight against gay marriage around 'protecting children', but why aren't we protesting divorce? Divorce hurts a greater percentage of kids BY FAR?

I think with each election we seem to have less and less compassion and worry more about protecting the status quo. This sounds a lot like the pharisees, doesn't it?

Christian activism is bad at any time, this is NOT the way God wanted us Christians to act. Politics should stay out of Christianity and visa-versa.

[ChristianSoldier2]

You cannot legislate morality.

Ah, NOT TRUE! The laws of our country are, by and large, just that, taken straight from the 10 commandments, which are now BANISHED from our courthouses by the activists at the ACLU (founded by an atheist and communist).

We SHOULD consider the USA a Christian nation, as it was founded by Christians (NOT deists, as many would have us believe).

Christian complacency is allowing the erosion of the moral fabric of our world, Sodom is alive and well and coming to a neighborhood near you if you don't find the backbone to stand up for Christ in the political arena. Evolution is taught as Scientific fact, while Intelligent Design is outlawed in our schools.

Gay Church? That's an oxymoron. REPENT.

Blessings.

Christian Soldier

[Kelly]

Christian activism is bad at any time, this is NOT the way God wanted us Christians to act. Politics should stay out of Christianity and visa-versa.

Here's an example of my dilemma:

It's time to vote for a govenor here in Michigan. We have a Democrat who has done "OK" given the circumstances . Michigan WAS the auto industry, which is in it's death throws as it currently exists (i.e. Americans making the parts).

The imcumbant Dem supports Gay civil union, abortion rights and has plans for the financial stabiilty of the state. The Rep. is focusing on hetero marriage, outlawing late term abortion.and plans to repair the economy.

Do I follow my wallet? Do I follow who gives the most personal freedoms? Do I follow my PERSONAL spiritual convictions?

Personally, gay marriage isn't an issue to me, but abortion is. BUT is the way to solve the abortion issue to OUTLAW it or to give pregnant women other alternatives/incentives to birth their babies. Or should I not vote and just pray?

[ChristianSoldier2]

Here's an example of my dilemma:

It's time to vote for a govenor here in Michigan. We have a Democrat who has done "OK" given the circumstances . Michigan WAS the auto industry, which is in it's death throws as it currently exists (i.e. Americans making the parts).

The imcumbant Dem supports Gay civil union, abortion rights and has plans for the financial stabiilty of the state. The Rep. is focusing on hetero marriage, outlawing late term abortion.and plans to repair the economy.

Do I follow my wallet? Do I follow who gives the most personal freedoms? Do I follow my PERSONAL spiritual convictions?

Personally, gay marriage isn't an issue to me, but abortion is. BUT is the way to solve the abortion issue to OUTLAW it or to give pregnant women other alternatives/incentives to birth their babies. Or should I not vote and just pray?
What you should follow is Gods Word. Period.

Gay marriage should be an issue. God's word.

Abortion is murder. God's word.

How can abortion be allowed, when a helples baby is being murdered? Its a no brainer.

Stand on the Word! Stand firm!

http://christiansoldiers.neodemesne.com/images/cs_logo.gif

[christianmomof3]

Do I follow my wallet? Do I follow who gives the most personal freedoms? Do I follow my PERSONAL spiritual convictions?

Or should I not vote and just pray?
Pray, Pray, Pray, and then follow the Lord's leading. If He leads you to vote, then do so. If not, then don't. But, do pray that whoever is elected will be under the Lord's ruling and authority and that the Lord's will be done in all things.

We all have different views on politics and they are our opinions. What matters is what God is doing and what His will is and the only way to know that is to pray. I do not believe that religion and politics should be mixed. I do not think that religious leaders should tell people who to vote for or how to vote. That is mixed motives. We each should follow the Lord and we should all pray for the political situation on the earth.

[Wisdom's Child]

Here's an example of my dilemma:

It's time to vote for a govenor here in Michigan. We have a Democrat who has done "OK" given the circumstances . Michigan WAS the auto industry, which is in it's death throws as it currently exists (i.e. Americans making the parts).

The imcumbant Dem supports Gay civil union, abortion rights and has plans for the financial stabiilty of the state. The Rep. is focusing on hetero marriage, outlawing late term abortion.and plans to repair the economy.

Do I follow my wallet? Do I follow who gives the most personal freedoms? Do I follow my PERSONAL spiritual convictions?

Personally, gay marriage isn't an issue to me, but abortion is. BUT is the way to solve the abortion issue to OUTLAW it or to give pregnant women other alternatives/incentives to birth their babies. Or should I not vote and just pray?

The answer is simple my friend.....
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Now look at each position and ask this simple question.
Who do you serve?

Do I follow my wallet?
Am I the servant of Mammon?
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Do I follow who gives the most personal freedoms?
Am I the servant of Sin?
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Do I follow my PERSONAL spiritual convictions?
Am I the servant of God?
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

[Starcrystal]

Anyway, I digres...although I believe politics and laws should be ethical and moral, I hold firm to the separatation of church and state. People should not be denied from practicing and saying what they want, such as expressed beliefs in school. But what I believe is that this country should not, can not, call itself a "Christian nation" even though Christianity may be the religious majority. I can only imagine that working in an ideal world where everyone agrees and follows Christianity. My problem is forced religion. We can and should follow moral and ethical principles, but we cannot force the particulars of one specific religion onto others, and that's what we would be doing by calling us a "Christian nation."


I agree in part about "forcing" religion on people. But first I want to address the comment about "separation of church and state." Most people get that from the first ammendment. Sorry, the 1st amend and nothing else in the US constitution ever says such a thing. What it does say is Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of a religion... this means the government cannot make a state religion and force it upon the nation as a national religion. The Soviet Union made that mistake before.
The second part of the 1st amend statement says "or prohibiting the free excercise thereof." The government also cannot forbid you to practice your religion. Unfortunately it has skirted the constitution and done so by taking prayer out of schools, removing the 10 commandments from public places, and such things. Problem is that while Christian stuff is removed all other religious propoganda is allowed. that is hypocricy!

Separation of church and state is an unconstitutional statement and does not mean to keep religion out of politics, or to ban religious practices and statements from the public. Those who use the term have no constitutional foundation because the 1st ammendment does not say separation of church and state, it says the govt won't establish a religion or prevent the practice of religion, or free speech, etc...

Now as far as politics, I still don't think Christians should get overly involved, and when they do it should be more passively. However when it comes to issues like abortion I think they need to take a more active stand since the poor little babies are defenseless and someone needs to try and protect them. Jesus did not blindly obey the godless authority of his day.... he constantly debated with the sanhedrin & Pharisees, even denouncing their practices. When he told Pilate he had no power over him except what was given by God , that was a huge slap in the face to a roman who believed his only power derived from Caeser. Jesus also went into the temple and drove out the money changers with a whip.... the money changers were there by permission and sanction of the Roman authorities at the time. So Jesus was not a passive little whimp when it came to authorities committing acts against God.... but notice he took direct grass roots action, he didn't run for a government office - and he was far more effectual.

[JTLauder]

I'm not talking about the 1st Amendment and adhering to the spirit of its intend. I am actually talking about the abstract concept of the separation between church and state in exactly the way you described.

I am not talking about the separation of church and state in the sense that they are mutually exclusive. Rather, the state should not enforce any one particular religious principles or practices onto the populace; and likewise no one church/regligious organization should have undue influence in the state that would effect the entire populace.

Case in point: homosexuality. Yes, the Bible condemns it. It's Biblically wrong, but is it morally wrong from a philosophical point of view? How can a state proclaim itself to promote religious freedom by enforcing a particular religious belief onto the whole populous that does not believe in it? It can't.

In this case, it would be the Bible--you can't force people to follow the Bible. It's been used a lot in politics and tolerated because "christianity" is the majority religion here. Just because I happen to belong to the majority, I recognize how contraining that is. What if Islam was the majority? In the same regard, I would not want to be forced to follow the Koran.

So unless the US is prepared to really call itself a "christian nation" and tolerate only christian practices and beliefs, it can not and should not allow one religion to take presedence and influence over others.

[boo42]

I always thought it was funny you have to give 10 percent of your income to charity to get a tax write-off. Ten percent--interesting number.

[boo42]

I think you can be a Christian and political. Or a Christian and not political. But being a "political Christian"--that seems to say all Christians have specific politics, when Christians may have different opinions on a variety of things..

[Starcrystal]

I'm not talking about the 1st Amendment and adhering to the spirit of its intend. I am actually talking about the abstract concept of the separation between church and state in exactly the way you described.

I am not talking about the separation of church and state in the sense that they are mutually exclusive. Rather, the state should not enforce any one particular religious principles or practices onto the populace; and likewise no one church/regligious organization should have undue influence in the state that would effect the entire populace.

Case in point: homosexuality. Yes, the Bible condemns it. It's Biblically wrong, but is it morally wrong from a philosophical point of view? How can a state proclaim itself to promote religious freedom by enforcing a particular religious belief onto the whole populous that does not believe in it? It can't.

In this case, it would be the Bible--you can't force people to follow the Bible. It's been used a lot in politics and tolerated because "christianity" is the majority religion here. Just because I happen to belong to the majority, I recognize how contraining that is. What if Islam was the majority? In the same regard, I would not want to be forced to follow the Koran.

So unless the US is prepared to really call itself a "christian nation" and tolerate only christian practices and beliefs, it can not and should not allow one religion to take presedence and influence over others.

This is where it can get sticky. If laws are too extreme against homosexuality then it may appear the govt is enforcing religious values on its citizens... but, on the other hand if the laws are lax (which they are) then the homosexuals flaunt their so called "lifestyle" publically, they bring it into schools (where you can't teach from the Bible), and they go to the extent that it is they who seem to be forcing their beliefs on others.

If I was a politically active person, or if I was running for an office my stand on the issue would be this: Same sex marraige would be illegal. Homosexuals would be forbidden to promote their "lifestyle" publically, especially in schools, and while I don't think there should be a law making the practice illegal, the practice of homosexuality in public should be a forbidden. Many people do not want to walk through the park with their families, including their children and see 2 guys lying on a blanket making out and touching each other you know where. And they do just that. How come heterosexual couples don't do that, or it's rare?

So the pushing and flaunting of it needs to be curtailed. Basically it's back in the closet.

I could cite medical evidence showing homosexuals have much lower life expectancy than heterosexuals... I think the average is in the 40s, or at least 20 - 25 years younger than the average. It's also health risk because even today most AIDS cases are within the homosexual community, and it was there that the disease really got its foothold then branched out into the drug addicts and heterosexuals. I've also see a study about homosexual teens and a higher rate of suicide/suicide attempts.

Just for medical reasons alone we should keep a grip on the issue.

[JTLauder]

This is where it can get sticky. If laws are too extreme against homosexuality then it may appear the govt is enforcing religious values on its citizens... but, on the other hand if the laws are lax (which they are) then the homosexuals flaunt their so called "lifestyle" publically, they bring it into schools (where you can't teach from the Bible), and they go to the extent that it is they who seem to be forcing their beliefs on others.

If I was a politically active person, or if I was running for an office my stand on the issue would be this: Same sex marraige would be illegal. Homosexuals would be forbidden to promote their "lifestyle" publically, especially in schools, and while I don't think there should be a law making the practice illegal, the practice of homosexuality in public should be a forbidden. Many people do not want to walk through the park with their families, including their children and see 2 guys lying on a blanket making out and touching each other you know where. And they do just that. How come heterosexual couples don't do that, or it's rare?

So the pushing and flaunting of it needs to be curtailed. Basically it's back in the closet.

I could cite medical evidence showing homosexuals have much lower life expectancy than heterosexuals... I think the average is in the 40s, or at least 20 - 25 years younger than the average. It's also health risk because even today most AIDS cases are within the homosexual community, and it was there that the disease really got its foothold then branched out into the drug addicts and heterosexuals. I've also see a study about homosexual teens and a higher rate of suicide/suicide attempts.

Just for medical reasons alone we should keep a grip on the issue.

Again, you are not posting a counter-argument to what I am saying.
The concise conclusion here in what we are both saying is that you can't use any particular religion to promote a non-religious affliated state.

To further use the homosexuality issue as an example, you can't push legislation against homosexuality based on the Bible because not everyone accepts the Bible. To do so would be forcing the entire populace to follow Biblical principles. (And to those who ask what is wrong with that, what if it was an extreme Islamic principle that was being forced upon you.)

HOWEVER, if you can pose valid and practical rationales apart from direct religious dogma against homosexuality, such as what you point out as serious health risks, then you have a legitimate argument to ban or restrict it. But then, that can only go so far too--look at smoking. Everyone knows it's bad for you and for everyone around you, and while stricter anti-smoking laws are in place now, it's still legal to smoke.

[christianmomof3]

[quote=

HOWEVER, if you can pose valid and practical rationales apart from direct religious dogma against homosexuality, such as what you point out as serious health risks, then you have a legitimate argument to ban or restrict it. But then, that can only go so far too--look at smoking. Everyone knows it's bad for you and for everyone around you, and while stricter anti-smoking laws are in place now, it's still legal to smoke.[/quote]
I second the serious health risks - I used to work with a lady whose dad was a proctologist - a large percent of his patients are homosexual and the problems they have are serious.
I also agree that it is difficult to get things changed.
I personally think that cigarettes should be illegal. They are highly addictive and cause severe health problems and death. But, the tobacco industry pays politicians lots of money and so they remain a legal drug although tobacco has no beneficial uses and is highly addictive and deadly.

[ChristianSoldier2]

I think you can be a Christian and political. Or a Christian and not political. But being a "political Christian"--that seems to say all Christians have specific politics, when Christians may have different opinions on a variety of things..


:preach:

If those of us who PROFESS to be Christians actually used the Word of God as the text of our daily lives, we would be of ONE MIND (God's) and not of a variety of opinions.

We would be a huge voting block of single-minded individuals, making full use of the political system that was put in place by Chrisitian founding fathers. Why are so many Christians complacent, to the point of foolishness? Why are so many hiding in their churches on Sunday while Satan works 24/7 influencing the world, destroying the very moral fabric of the society of which we are all a part?

Either you believe the Bible is the Word of God or you don't.

Those of you who believe that you should not vote need to wake up. You will find one day that your beliefs have become criminal and then it will be a choice of following man's laws or God's laws. Which will you pick then?? Will that be a political decision? WAKE UP!

http://christiansoldiers.neodemesne.com/images/cs_logo.gif

[linssue55]

You cannot legislate morality.


BINGO and RIGHT ON!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

This is like trying to legislate common sense, or how to balance a check book, how to think according to THEIR (self righteous, legalistic crowd) standards.

What needs to be done "WITHOUT" legislation is every believer to "SATURATE" their souls with bible doctrine "DAILY", (we are in desperate times and we need to take desperate measures, for the time is short) and take in and "USE" (you can know it, but it does no good if you don't apply it) the word of God.

This is what turns things around. To legaslate personal habits is to legislate "HITLER" rule, which crushes our freedom to choose right or wrong. Freedom is God given, and at EVERY turn we should FIGHT any and ALL that try to diminish that freedom.

[linssue55]

Here's an example of my dilemma:

It's time to vote for a govenor here in Michigan. We have a Democrat who has done "OK" given the circumstances . Michigan WAS the auto industry, which is in it's death throws as it currently exists (i.e. Americans making the parts).

The imcumbant Dem supports Gay civil union, abortion rights and has plans for the financial stabiilty of the state. The Rep. is focusing on hetero marriage, outlawing late term abortion.and plans to repair the economy.

Do I follow my wallet? Do I follow who gives the most personal freedoms? Do I follow my PERSONAL spiritual convictions?

Personally, gay marriage isn't an issue to me, but abortion is. BUT is the way to solve the abortion issue to OUTLAW it or to give pregnant women other alternatives/incentives to birth their babies. Or should I not vote and just pray?

You follow the mandates of the Lord, regardless of parties. We are to live in the light of eternity and NOT put our affections on the things of the world. We are here for a very, very, very SHORT time and we are here to please the Lord, NOT man, or ourselves, if it goes against the written word.

So your solution is VERY simple, ALWAYS, ALWAYS think "Divine viewpoint" in ALL things, and put HUMAN viewpoint aside, for it means nothing to God. Go with scripture, ALWAYS!! By doing this is makes life so very simple, and let the Lord worry about the political arena, He know's what He is doing, and really doesn't need us sinners help. So relax.........and follow Divine Viewpoint.:)

[linssue55]

I always thought it was funny you have to give 10 percent of your income to charity to get a tax write-off. Ten percent--interesting number.

This 10% came from the bible that the people needed to pay, the state levy tax. It has "NOTHING" to do with tithing. According to the bible, ALL.......ALL people "NOW" should pay 10%, rich or poor (then we would not need income tax forms at the end of each year) and we should ONLY have to pay state tax, this federal tax is WRONG and EVIL! We are truly messed up in this country, but we are reaping what we have sown. So be it!

[Starcrystal]

:preach:

If those of us who PROFESS to be Christians actually used the Word of God as the text of our daily lives, we would be of ONE MIND (God's) and not of a variety of opinions.

We would be a huge voting block of single-minded individuals, making full use of the political system that was put in place by Chrisitian founding fathers. Why are so many Christians complacent, to the point of foolishness? Why are so many hiding in their churches on Sunday while Satan works 24/7 influencing the world, destroying the very moral fabric of the society of which we are all a part?

Either you believe the Bible is the Word of God or you don't.

Those of you who believe that you should not vote need to wake up. You will find one day that your beliefs have become criminal and then it will be a choice of following man's laws or God's laws. Which will you pick then?? Will that be a political decision? WAKE UP!

http://christiansoldiers.neodemesne.com/images/cs_logo.gif


Your last paragraph reminds me of The Prophecy 2024 by Kirt Poovey... the scenario he paints in that book and its sequel Tradgedy & Hope is far more realistic than some of the stuff written in the Left Behind series by Lahaye.

I agree with those who say hearts need changed and individuals must come to know the Lord - and know the Lord as the Lord teaches, not as these wishy washy mainstream denominations teach because they actually deny Christ by their preaching (or lack thereof) and their actions.

As far as voting.... does it really matter? Politicians lie in the primaries, get voted into office and then don't follow through on promises made. They manipulate votes. And I remember last election many Christians voted for the guy presently in office and look at the mess with the war that could bankrupt the country, as well as other issues. Sure I agree with him on the abortion and gay marraige issues, but there's so much more that is a mess. Will it matter if the country goes bankrupt?
I just don't see voting as a cure all because you never get anyone in there who has a large majority of good & godly policies. Any candidate out there who could possibly win that will fight hard to outlaw abortion even if to make it a decree to ban the murder of babies, keep marraige between male & female only, withdraw from these senseless wars, open a dialogue with the terrorist regimes and make the initiative to withdraw first. In other words a truce but if they violate it then bomb the country harboring or sponsoring them off the planet. A candidate who would be pro environment with strict anti pollution laws, who whould cut the reliance on forieng oil and instead mandate ethanol & biodiesel to be produced from the crops grown on American farms = jobs for farmers, with incentives. A candidate who would bring in socialized health care for all similar to Canada's program, paid for by taxes on alcohol, tobacco and marijuana. The end to drug wars and involvement in south & central American nations.... legalization of marijuana/hemp both for personal use (in privacy of home or property), taxed by the govt, and hemp production offering jobs to small farmers that can be used for paper, fiber & lumber, as well as a huge recycling program that doesn't rape the environment constantly.....
Oh, and I don't necessarily agree with pot smoking but people do it just like they smoke tobacco so instead of wasting millions on futile drug wars, why not legalize it, regulate it, and MAKE money off of it, plus by doing so offer jobs to thousands of Americans.... between the hemp industry and the ethanol & bio fuels we could turn the farm crisis around, make farming worthwhile and lucrative, both small and medium farmers who are the ones who suffer most and often lose their farms at present....
Find someone like that who has backbone and won't let down and maybe I'll vote for him or her. :)

[ChristianSoldier2]

As far as voting.... does it really matter?YES! It does.

Are you aware that South Dakota legislatures (comprised of elected officials) recently banned abotion in that state (http://www.google.com/search?q=south+dakota+bans+abortion&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)??

If we leave politics to non-Christians, we will spiral down to the conditions of Sodom and we aren't that far from it NOW.

If you didn't participate in the last elections, you have no business slamming Bush, or anyone else. You gave up that right through sheer apathy.



http://christiansoldiers.neodemesne.com/images/cs_logo.gif

[dillfazie]

I agree we must vote...
I see the points of it's a worthless, and hopeless task...

However, let us look to our Lord and ask his direction.... as many have posted we need likemindedness, a source of great power we seem to ignore...

what if we prayed for a worthy representative, one that does God's will, do we have the faith for this, or are we just giving up... i wish to fight the greatest way i know, face down praying and asking for God's help...

anyone willing to join me??

[ChristianSoldier2]

I agree we must vote...
I see the points of it's a worthless, and hopeless task...

However, let us look to our Lord and ask his direction.... as many have posted we need likemindedness, a source of great power we seem to ignore...

what if we prayed for a worthy representative, one that does God's will, do we have the faith for this, or are we just giving up... i wish to fight the greatest way i know, face down praying and asking for God's help...

anyone willing to join me??
Count me in. Anyone else?

Christian Soldier

[Starcrystal]

YES! It does.

Are you aware that South Dakota legislatures (comprised of elected officials) recently banned abotion in that state (http://www.google.com/search?q=south+dakota+bans+abortion&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)??

If we leave politics to non-Christians, we will spiral down to the conditions of Sodom and we aren't that far from it NOW.

If you didn't participate in the last elections, you have no business slamming Bush, or anyone else. You gave up that right through sheer apathy.



http://christiansoldiers.neodemesne.com/images/cs_logo.gif


Alright South Dakota!

Well, we did vote and it was not for any major party candidate. Then after the election all I saw was reports of vote tampering, threats, intimidation at the polls.... certainly not the fruits of Christian people, but this all occurred supposedly in support of the "Christian" candidate. Now I'm sure some of that was exaggered, but some did take place.

And the point about if we don't vote then it will only be the liberals voting.


Point is, what do you do when none of the candidates uphold enough good values to even be worth it? I'm talking presidential only, not lesser candidates like senators and stuff. Sometimes it's probably better getting the right ones in those offices.

This thread started out as political christianity, and I think got sidetracked into voting. I still feel that Christians who spend all their time on political issues are missing the mark as far as Christs mission. Voting is fine, supporting a candidate is fine - but when whole ministries give most of their time and money to politics it detracts from what Jesus truly wants people to be doing.