thread on infant baptism

[kamikat]

There is a post that is somewhat concerning, but since I don't think I know enough to refute this, can someone take a look at what Scott laFrance is saying?
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=27263672&postcount=57
The EO believe in the exact same things regarding baptism as the CC does. Our sacraments and their mysteries are identical.



kamikat

[Oblio]

Does the CC belief that if an infant dies unbaptised, it's soul is in peril ?

[kamikat]

They used to teach that unbaptized babies went to Limbo,neither heaven nor hell. I think Limbo has been officially abandoned. Most older Catholics still believe that unbaptized babies cab't go to heaven. I think the currently teaching is basically "we don't know what happens to unbaptized babies, we can only hope God will be merciful".

kamikat

[RobNJ]

Since we don't subscribe to the Augustinian view of Original Sin, while they do.... the view can't be identical, can they?

[kamikat]

that's what I thought, but since I'm not well-versed enough in the EO view, I didn't want to get into it. Scott used to be Orthodox, so he knows how to argue against EO theology.

[Jacob4707]

"The EO believe in the exact same things regarding baptism as the CC does. Our sacraments and their mysteries are identical."

I don't think this is correct.

Scott LaFrance's profile testimony says:

Personal Testimony - How I became a Christian:I was born, baptised and raised in the Catholic faith. When I left home for the military I became sort of an agnostic hedonist for a few years. I met my first wife and converted to the Greek Orthodox religion (of which I had two daughters baptised). She left me for an Italian guy, and I fell head over heels for a Puerto Rican woman. We married and for a while attended a Baptist church. At this point I had a spiritual reawakening, and began to search for truth. I began to read the bible and researched the history of Christianity and Christian doctrine. My work lead me right back the the Catholic Church. I understand the people within Catholicism are flawed and sometime reprehensible, but that did not nullify its doctrine. I am now a fully reunited Catholic and stallwart defender of the Catholic faith.From what I've read of Orthodox theology, I'm not sure that researching Orthodox and Catholic doctrines would lead one to conclude that their sacraments and mysteries and how the respective churches view them are the same. They're not even the same in outward form, let alone in meaning:

Eucharist:
Orthodox: Leavened bread carefully cut from a loaf and placed in a chalice with wine (which must be red)
Catholic: Unleavened coin-like wafer that is taken separately; white wine can be used

Baptism:
Orthodox: Full immersion three times
Catholic: Sprinkling (is it done three times?)

It's a mortal sin in the Catholic Church to deliberately miss Mass - i.e., make a conscious choice when one knows that one should go. I don't know if the Orthodox Church even has the concept of "mortal sin" - or at least not the view/definition the Catholic Church has. The Orthodox view of the Eucharist and the necessity of eating the elements is different. The Catholic view of baptism = salvation is I think also more stringent than the Orthodox view in terms of the state of unbaptized persons, or maybe used to be. The purpose and effects of baptism are I think understood differently, too.

Others here more knowledgeable than I can clarify or correct this.

[Theophorus]

If we believed the same concerning the sacrament of batism, as well as the sacrament Holy communion, then why do we commune infants, and they do not.

[Ilian]

This is from the The Orthodox Catechism: Basic Teachings of the Orthodox Faith (http://orthodoxcatechism.org/)by Metropolitan Archbishop Sotirios of The Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto, Canada, 1989. The section on Baptism says the following:


Baptism

The first of the seven sacraments of our Church is Baptism. It is sent from God. Christ Himself commanded it when he said to His disciples: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew, 28:19); elsewhere He said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark, 16:15-16).


In these words of Christ we see firstly that He established baptism, and secondly that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."


It should be noted here that, even though He was sinless, Christ was baptized He was baptized so that He could teach us in a practical way that we benefit from being baptized.


The command and example of Christ were applied by the Apostles, and are and will continue to be applied till the end of the world by the Church.


Actually, baptism should take place after catechism. The person who will be baptized is first of all catechized. He is taught the Orthodox faith. He accepts the faith and is then baptized. Infant baptism has prevailed, however, even from the first centuries of Christianity. Why? The reason is that no one should die unbaptized, since there is no salvation for him who is not baptized. You may ask what happens to a little baby that dies before it is baptized? We cannot answer this question. What we do know is that the baptized person is saved. What will happen to the person who apart from his own will, dies unbaptized is a matter for God and He will judge. We cannot know the will of God, nor can we become judges of God. What happens, though, with the catechesis of an infant? All the responsibility of the catechesis falls on the godparent and the parents of the baptized. They must catechize the baptized infant.


Baptism is performed with three immersions in water, just as Christ ordained, "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The Orthodox Church does not accept baptism by sprinkling or pouring of water, unless there is absolute need for it. It does not accept these other forms of baptism because the very word baptism means immersion, plunging in water. Christ said "baptized" not "sprinkled."


He who is baptized is cleansed from original sin and from all other sins that he has committed up to the time of his baptism. His immersion in water symbolizes death. The sinful man dies. The baptized person is reborn and becomes a member of the Church, the mystical body of Christ. He puts on Christ. "Those who are baptized in Christ, put on Christ." After baptism, or rather with baptism, he enters the Kingdom of God. He is saved. This creates a problem, however. Because he has entered the Kingdom of God, because he is saved, does this mean he will remain there? No. That will depend on the individual and the effort he puts into not soiling the new garment again with sin, and not dirtying the beauty of the soul. We say that it depends on the individual because "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy, 2:4). Although with baptism he is cleansed from all sin and from original sin, the Christian does not cease to be free, and not unlike his forefathers who disobeyed God, so too after his baptism he may not follow God or do His will, but rather do his own will. St. Paul tells us "Do you know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans, 6:3-6). This is how it is. We should not be serving sin and working for the sake of sin after baptism. Unfortunately, though, many of us return to our old ways. Though we entered the Kingdom of God through baptism, it is possible to be driven out from the Kingdom of God by the sins that we commit, just as Adam and Eve were driven out of Paradise.


Baptism is also called illumination because with it man comes out of the darkness of sin and into the light of righteousness--the light of Christ. He is illumined. He becomes wholly light and life, and radiates divine light and spirituality. In the past, the catechumens were called the "illumined." Baptism is also called the fountain of renewal because man is reborn through baptism.
Christ, You are the true light Who illumines and sanctifies every man who enters the world, You who by deed and word taught and established the sacrament of baptism in order for man to be cleansed from original sin, from all sin, Who gave baptism for the death of the old man, and for the reborn man to become a member of Your Church--Your mystical body--and to work no longer in sin and for sin, make, O Lord, everyone accept this great gift of baptism. Make the baptized and reborn return no more to the old deception, nor become slaves of sin. Make them remain in the light, in freedom, and in Your grace, love, and kingdom. Make them remain holy, honourable and healthy members of Your mystical body as long as they are on earth, and after death grant them eternal life and Your kingdom. Accept O Lord our thanksgiving and doxology, for to You belongs all glory, thanksgiving, praise, and worship.

The section on Original Sin says the following

Original Sin And Its Consequences

The disobedience and transgression of Adam and Eve is called Original Sin. What happened? As we have previously said, God gave Adam and Eve permission to eat the fruit of all trees except the fruit of the tree “of the knowledge of good and evil.” Here is what the Bible says: “You may freely eat of every tree of the Garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die”(Genesis 2:16-17). In other words, God said to Adam and to Eve, “You may eat the fruit of all of the trees that are in the Garden and that are edible; it is only the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that you should not eat. On the day that you do eat it, you shall die.”

A guilty person wants an accomplice. Satan, who had been an angel and had disobeyed God, becoming Satan, felt guilty and terribly alone. He could keep company only with the other Satans, the demons. His nature had been perverted; he was unable and is unable ever to think about goodness. He always thinks and desires evil. He always seeks evil for others. He was jealous of man. He saw that he was so very happy in Paradise in the company of God. So he put his evil plans into action. As the spirit that he is, he entered the body of a snake. Then he climbed the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil.” He waited there. Eve came and peered at the tree. Satan intruded upon her curiosity. He asked her, “Tell me, Eve, is it true that God told you not to eat the fruit of all of the trees?” Eve answered, “No. He told us to eat the fruit of all the trees except the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because if we did we would die.” The serpent said, “You shall not die. God knows that on the day that you eat of that fruit, your eyes will open and you will become as gods. You will know good and evil.” Eve liked Satan’s sweet and slanderous words. She stretched out her hand. She took a fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She ate some, and she also gave some to her mate, Adam. They ate together. Immediately, “their eyes were opened” and they realized that they were naked (Genesis 3:1-7).

Because many people say that the Bible is being metaphorical and that by the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil the Bible refers to the sexual relationship of Adam and Eve, we repeat here that this is not true. God had decreed the sexual relationship of Adam and Eve when he told them to “increase and multiply.” Then what shall we say is the original sin? It is the denunciation of God. If you will, it is the attempt of man to disenthrone God and to enthrone himself in His place, to become God in the place of God. It is not merely that he ate fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. St. John Chrysostom says about Eve, “She was filled with grandiose imaginings, hoping to be equal to God.” Hoping to be equal to God, she lost her senses.

That is original sin. And its consequences? A.) Spiritual death. That is, the separation of man from God, the source of all goodness. B.) Bodily death. That is, the separation of the body from the soul, the return of the body to the earth. C.) The shattering and distortion of the “image.” That is, darkness of mind, depravity and corruption of the heart, loss of independence, loss of free will, and tendency towards evil. Since then “the imagination of man’s heart is evil “(Genesis 8:21). Man constantly thinks of evil. D.) Guilt. That is, a bad conscience, the shame that made him want to hide from God. E.) Worst of all, original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve’s. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin. We all of us participate in original sin because we are all descended from the same forefather, Adam. This creates a problem for many people. They ask, Why should we be responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve? Why should we have to pay for the sins of our parents? they say. Unfortunately, this is so, because the consequence of original sin is the distortion of the nature of man. Of course, this is unexplainable and belongs to the realm of mystery, but we can give one example to make it somewhat better understood. Let us say that you have a wild orange tree, from which you make a graft. You will get domesticated oranges, but the root will still be that of the wild orange tree. To have wild oranges again, you must regraft the tree. This is what Christ came for and achieved for fallen man, as we shall see in the following sections.

Our Creator and Maker, ours is the fault. Adam and Eve, listening to Satan, blasphemed. Out of egotism, they allowed themselves to be misled. They distorted the “image.” They darkened the beauty of the soul. They weakened the nature of mankind. Because of them, we became unrecognizable. “The imagination of our heart is evil.” We constantly think of evil. We feel so guilty. We are so far away from You. We have been grafted to evil. We have lost our self-control and our free will to do good. We thank You for Your love, and for sending Your Only-begotten Son to regraft us to goodness. For giving us the possibility of returning to You. You, Lord “want every man to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Do not deprive us of this. Do not deprive anyone of salvation. We thank You Lord.

[Jacob4707]

This is from the The Orthodox Catechism: Basic Teachings of the Orthodox Faith (http://orthodoxcatechism.org/)by Metropolitan Archbishop Sotirios of The Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto, Canada, 1989. The section on Baptism says the following:


Baptism

The first of the seven sacraments of our Church is Baptism. It is sent from God. Christ Himself commanded it when he said to His disciples: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew, 28:19); elsewhere He said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark, 16:15-16).


In these words of Christ we see firstly that He established baptism, and secondly that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."


It should be noted here that, even though He was sinless, Christ was baptized He was baptized so that He could teach us in a practical way that we benefit from being baptized.


The command and example of Christ were applied by the Apostles, and are and will continue to be applied till the end of the world by the Church.


Actually, baptism should take place after catechism. The person who will be baptized is first of all catechized. He is taught the Orthodox faith. He accepts the faith and is then baptized. Infant baptism has prevailed, however, even from the first centuries of Christianity. Why? The reason is that no one should die unbaptized, since there is no salvation for him who is not baptized. You may ask what happens to a little baby that dies before it is baptized? We cannot answer this question. What we do know is that the baptized person is saved. What will happen to the person who apart from his own will, dies unbaptized is a matter for God and He will judge. We cannot know the will of God, nor can we become judges of God. What happens, though, with the catechesis of an infant? All the responsibility of the catechesis falls on the godparent and the parents of the baptized. They must catechize the baptized infant.


Baptism is performed with three immersions in water, just as Christ ordained, "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The Orthodox Church does not accept baptism by sprinkling or pouring of water, unless there is absolute need for it. It does not accept these other forms of baptism because the very word baptism means immersion, plunging in water. Christ said "baptized" not "sprinkled."


He who is baptized is cleansed from original sin and from all other sins that he has committed up to the time of his baptism. His immersion in water symbolizes death. The sinful man dies. The baptized person is reborn and becomes a member of the Church, the mystical body of Christ. He puts on Christ. "Those who are baptized in Christ, put on Christ." After baptism, or rather with baptism, he enters the Kingdom of God. He is saved. This creates a problem, however. Because he has entered the Kingdom of God, because he is saved, does this mean he will remain there? No. That will depend on the individual and the effort he puts into not soiling the new garment again with sin, and not dirtying the beauty of the soul. We say that it depends on the individual because "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy, 2:4). Although with baptism he is cleansed from all sin and from original sin, the Christian does not cease to be free, and not unlike his forefathers who disobeyed God, so too after his baptism he may not follow God or do His will, but rather do his own will. St. Paul tells us "Do you know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans, 6:3-6). This is how it is. We should not be serving sin and working for the sake of sin after baptism. Unfortunately, though, many of us return to our old ways. Though we entered the Kingdom of God through baptism, it is possible to be driven out from the Kingdom of God by the sins that we commit, just as Adam and Eve were driven out of Paradise.


Baptism is also called illumination because with it man comes out of the darkness of sin and into the light of righteousness--the light of Christ. He is illumined. He becomes wholly light and life, and radiates divine light and spirituality. In the past, the catechumens were called the "illumined." Baptism is also called the fountain of renewal because man is reborn through baptism.
Christ, You are the true light Who illumines and sanctifies every man who enters the world, You who by deed and word taught and established the sacrament of baptism in order for man to be cleansed from original sin, from all sin, Who gave baptism for the death of the old man, and for the reborn man to become a member of Your Church--Your mystical body--and to work no longer in sin and for sin, make, O Lord, everyone accept this great gift of baptism. Make the baptized and reborn return no more to the old deception, nor become slaves of sin. Make them remain in the light, in freedom, and in Your grace, love, and kingdom. Make them remain holy, honourable and healthy members of Your mystical body as long as they are on earth, and after death grant them eternal life and Your kingdom. Accept O Lord our thanksgiving and doxology, for to You belongs all glory, thanksgiving, praise, and worship.

The section on Original Sin says the following

Original Sin And Its Consequences

The disobedience and transgression of Adam and Eve is called Original Sin. What happened? As we have previously said, God gave Adam and Eve permission to eat the fruit of all trees except the fruit of the tree “of the knowledge of good and evil.” Here is what the Bible says: “You may freely eat of every tree of the Garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die”(Genesis 2:16-17). In other words, God said to Adam and to Eve, “You may eat the fruit of all of the trees that are in the Garden and that are edible; it is only the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that you should not eat. On the day that you do eat it, you shall die.”

A guilty person wants an accomplice. Satan, who had been an angel and had disobeyed God, becoming Satan, felt guilty and terribly alone. He could keep company only with the other Satans, the demons. His nature had been perverted; he was unable and is unable ever to think about goodness. He always thinks and desires evil. He always seeks evil for others. He was jealous of man. He saw that he was so very happy in Paradise in the company of God. So he put his evil plans into action. As the spirit that he is, he entered the body of a snake. Then he climbed the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil.” He waited there. Eve came and peered at the tree. Satan intruded upon her curiosity. He asked her, “Tell me, Eve, is it true that God told you not to eat the fruit of all of the trees?” Eve answered, “No. He told us to eat the fruit of all the trees except the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because if we did we would die.” The serpent said, “You shall not die. God knows that on the day that you eat of that fruit, your eyes will open and you will become as gods. You will know good and evil.” Eve liked Satan’s sweet and slanderous words. She stretched out her hand. She took a fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She ate some, and she also gave some to her mate, Adam. They ate together. Immediately, “their eyes were opened” and they realized that they were naked (Genesis 3:1-7).

Because many people say that the Bible is being metaphorical and that by the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil the Bible refers to the sexual relationship of Adam and Eve, we repeat here that this is not true. God had decreed the sexual relationship of Adam and Eve when he told them to “increase and multiply.” Then what shall we say is the original sin? It is the denunciation of God. If you will, it is the attempt of man to disenthrone God and to enthrone himself in His place, to become God in the place of God. It is not merely that he ate fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. St. John Chrysostom says about Eve, “She was filled with grandiose imaginings, hoping to be equal to God.” Hoping to be equal to God, she lost her senses.

That is original sin. And its consequences? A.) Spiritual death. That is, the separation of man from God, the source of all goodness. B.) Bodily death. That is, the separation of the body from the soul, the return of the body to the earth. C.) The shattering and distortion of the “image.” That is, darkness of mind, depravity and corruption of the heart, loss of independence, loss of free will, and tendency towards evil. Since then “the imagination of man’s heart is evil “(Genesis 8:21). Man constantly thinks of evil. D.) Guilt. That is, a bad conscience, the shame that made him want to hide from God. E.) Worst of all, original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve’s. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin. We all of us participate in original sin because we are all descended from the same forefather, Adam. This creates a problem for many people. They ask, Why should we be responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve? Why should we have to pay for the sins of our parents? they say. Unfortunately, this is so, because the consequence of original sin is the distortion of the nature of man. Of course, this is unexplainable and belongs to the realm of mystery, but we can give one example to make it somewhat better understood. Let us say that you have a wild orange tree, from which you make a graft. You will get domesticated oranges, but the root will still be that of the wild orange tree. To have wild oranges again, you must regraft the tree. This is what Christ came for and achieved for fallen man, as we shall see in the following sections.

Our Creator and Maker, ours is the fault. Adam and Eve, listening to Satan, blasphemed. Out of egotism, they allowed themselves to be misled. They distorted the “image.” They darkened the beauty of the soul. They weakened the nature of mankind. Because of them, we became unrecognizable. “The imagination of our heart is evil.” We constantly think of evil. We feel so guilty. We are so far away from You. We have been grafted to evil. We have lost our self-control and our free will to do good. We thank You for Your love, and for sending Your Only-begotten Son to regraft us to goodness. For giving us the possibility of returning to You. You, Lord “want every man to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Do not deprive us of this. Do not deprive anyone of salvation. We thank You Lord.

The highlighting in blue is my own.


http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=3&SID=3

Original Sin

QUESTION:

I would like to know what is the orthodox canon regarding the "original sin." The following confuse me:

Father Michael Azkoul states that God punished man only once for the original sin by introducing death, and the original sin wasn't transferred to the next generations.

He says (on the OCF website): "The Church does not accept the idea that the Mother of God was born with the (inherited) guilt of Adam; no one is ..."

On the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto's page there is a totally different statement:
"Worst of all, original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam andEve's."



ANSWER:

Concerning the original -- or "first" -- sin, that commited by Adam and Eve, Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin, the foremost of which is death, only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin. Roman Catholicism teaches that everyone bears not only the consequence, but also the guilt, of that sin. In the article by Fr. Azkoul, he deals with this quite clearly in the sections above the quote which you sent in your email. There is nothing wrong with his statement.

Concerning the second passage -- from the Toronto Metropolis' web site -- it would probably have been clearer to the reader had the sentence read as follows: "Worst of all, the consequences of the original sin are hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's." I am not sure that there is any conflict whatsoever; rather, the second passage needs to be clarified.

Finally, the "Orthodox canons" are not statements of doctrine; rather, they are the "canon laws" drafted by the early Church councils. Canons deal with Church discipline and order, not with doctrine. They are found in the proceedings of the seven ecumenical councils and the local councils of the early Church. If by asking "if the Orthodox canons are published and available for purchase" you refer to Canon Law, please let me know, and I will direct you to places where you can purchase them. If you are interested in doctrinal material, however, collections of canons would not contain the fundamental teachings of the faith.

[Ilian]

This is from "Our Orthodox Christian Faith: A Handbook of Popular Dogmatics" by Athanasios S. Frangopoulos, theologian and teacher. Published by The Brotherhood of Theologians, “O Sotir”, in Athens, Greece, 1984.


Chapter 9, The Original Sin:

4.d. Guilt. The original sin which brought about man’s depravity also brought about his guilt. Man, through his transgression, became guilty before God as a transgressor of the divine command, guilty and accused before the justice of God the Lawgiver. The transgression contained guilt within it. Both are simultaneous. As soon as he committed the transgression he sensed guilt. within him. His conscience thundered out and said: “Sinner, you are guilty and stand accused before God”. It was this sense of guilt that made the first couple realize that they were naked, and hasten to hide before the face of God. Thus, wherever sin is to be found, there, too, exists guilt. The sin that Adam committed in Paradise did not result only in the depravity and moral perversion of man. It ushered also guilt and then God’s sentence and condemnation. This is felt by every man who sins. Immediately, remorse and pangs of conscience set in: a clear proof and confirmation of guilt. And the consequence of guilt is condemnation and punishment.

And this is the final phase of sin relevant to the body. Man was created from earth and unto the earth he is entrusted. God said this when He pronounced His verdict upon Adam: «ln the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread until thou return to the earth out of which thou was taken, for earth thou art and to earth thou shall return» (Gen. 3, 19).

4.e. The inheritance of Original Sin. The saddest and ugliest aspect of Original sin is its transmission from the first man to his descendants and; from generation to generation to the entire human race: a hereditary transmission as a state and sickness of human nature and as a personal guilt of every man. That is to say, not only Adam sinned but in his person all his offsprings, all men who were to be descended from Adam. This means that Adam did not sin only as an individual but as progenitor and representative of the human race. For this reason God imputed upon all men the sin of the one. And to verify this Holy Scripture states: “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3, 23). These words of the holy Apostle while certainly presenting the universality of sin do not tell us whence came this universal unhappy legacy. This the Apostle clearly defines further along when he says that it springs from the fall of the first parents. “Wherefore,” says the divinely-inspired Apostle, “as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5, 12); that is, in the person of Adam all his descendants were included and all inherited the sin of Adam and the results of that sin which are guilt, corruption and the depravity of our nature, the tendency and inclination towards evil and finally death. Thus, as we have already said, “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. In the psalms we find the verse that says: “For behold I was conceived in iniquities and in sins did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 50, 5), and which can be applied to each and every one of us. Job, aware of the weight of sin, asks, “Who is pure from uncleaness?” and gives the answer himself: “Not even one; if even his life should be but one day upon the earth” (Job 14, 4-5). Furthermore, the Evangelist St. John emphasizes that we all have need to be reborn in water and the Spirit, for through birth the pollution of sin is transmitted to all of us, for “that which is born of flesh is flesh” (John 3, 6), and every sinful man is by nature subject to divine wrath in accordance with the saying “we were by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. 2, 3).

Of course this is an incomprehensible mystery. How could men who weren’t even born and consequently had neither thought nor will - necessary elements for sin - sin? How am I guilty of the sin of another, of a sin of which I personally possess no consciousness? That at sometime, somewhere I sinned and am thus justly guilty and subject to divine wrath? This is indeed an inexplicable mystery. Yet it is a fact that God imputed Adam’s sin upon the entire human race, and this imputation is a mysterious one; yet its transmission is completely natural. We have already brought forth similar examples and have said that a cloudy stream springs forth from a cloudy spring and that from a rotten root rotten branches and fruit blossom forth, and that from sick parents sick children are born. Such is the case here. With infected leaven all the dough will become infected; hence if the ancestors and progenitors were sinful and corrupt so will all the descendants be. Naturally and out of unavoidable necessity and consequence.

But let us not look only at the evil heritage which we all of course deeply sense within us and for the weight and wretched consequences of which we often weep. Let us also look upon our good and excellent heritage which we enjoy as Christians unto eternal life and salvation. The former is for us a curse, the latter a blessing. Cause of the first, our carnal progenitor, the first Adam. Cause of the latter, the blessing and the grace, is the second Adam and our progenitor, the Lord Jesus Christ. The evil inheritance we possess as carnal men, the good inheritance as spiritual Christians. We bear the curse because of our descent. The blessings we possess through faith and submission to Christ the Saviour.

[Jacob4707]

Based on these posts and quotes there seems to be a split among Orthodox teachers/priests/theologians on the doctrine of original sin versus original guilt, and on the passing on of sin and/or death due to Adam's sin. Is this lack of a consensus a recent thing, or can one see both views being held by large numbers of Eastern Fathers on each side from the first century through the 7th Council?

[Ilian]

From the Longer Catechism of St. Philaret of Moscow

153. Wherefore did the Son of God come down from heaven?
For us men, and for our salvation, as it is said in the Creed.
154. In what sense is it said that the Son of God came down from heaven for us men?
In this sense: that he came upon earth not for one nation, nor for some men only, but for us men universally.
155. To save men from what did he come upon earth?
From sin, the curse, and death.
156. What is sin?
Transgression of the law. Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John iii. 4.
157. Whence is sin in men, seeing that they were created in the image of God, and God can not sin?
From the devil. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. 1 John iii. 8.
158. How did sin pass from the devil to men?
The devil deceived Eve and Adam, and induced them to transgress God’s commandment.
159. What commandment?
God commanded Adam in Paradise not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and withal told him, that so soon as he ate thereof he should surely die.
160. Why did it bring death to man to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Because it involved disobedience to God’s will, and so separated man from God and his grace, and alienated him from the life of God.
161. What propriety is there in the name of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Man through this tree came to know by the act itself what good there is in obeying the will of God, and what evil in disobeying it.
162. How could Adam and Eve listen to the devil against the will of God?
God of his goodness, at the creation of man, gave him a will naturally disposed to love God, but still free; and man used this freedom for evil.
163. How did the devil deceive Adam and Eve?
Eve saw in Paradise a serpent, which assured her that if men ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would know good and evil, and would become as gods. Eve was deceived by this promise, and by the fairness of the fruit, and ate of it. Adam ate after her example.
164. What came of Adam’s sin?
The curse, and death.
165. What is the curse?
The condemnation of sin by God’s just judgment, and the evil which from sin came upon the earth for the punishment of men. God said to Adam, Cursed is the ground for thy sake. Gen. iii. 17.
166. What is the death which came from the sin of Adam?
It is twofold: bodily, when the body loses the soul which quickened it; and spiritual, when the soul loses the grace of God, which quickened it with the higher and spiritual life.
167. Can the soul, then, die as well as the body?
It can die, but not so as the body. The body, when it dies, loses sense, and is dissolved; the soul, when it dies by sin, loses spiritual light, joy, and happiness, but is not dissolved nor annihilated, but remains in a state of darkness, anguish, and suffering.
168. Why did not the first man only die, and not all, as now?
Because all have come of Adam since his infection by sin, and all sin themselves. As from an infected source there naturally flows an infected stream, so from a father infected with sin, and consequently mortal, there naturally proceeds a posterity infected like him with sin, and like him mortal.
169. How is this spoken of in holy Scripture?
By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Rom. v. 12.
170. Had man any benefit from the fruit of the tree of life after he had sinned?
After he had sinned, he could no more eat of it, for he was driven out of Paradise.
171. Had men, then, any hope left of salvation?
When our first parents had confessed before God their sin, God, of his mercy, gave them a hope of salvation.

[Teke]

Some info from ordained clergy would be necessary to clarify baptisms better. As there seems to be some difference of a regular baptism and one into the Church (Orthodoxy).

My bishop baptised a relatives child, but the childs parents weren't Orthodox, so it is a different baptism than the Orthodox baptism of the Church.

From my observation on the matter, there seems to be a general agreement on baptism in general, irregardless of who does the baptism. (as converts know, they are not rebaptised)

[Ilian]

Some churches baptize all converts regardless of former status.

[Teke]

Some churches baptize all converts regardless of former status.

I agree, but not full immersion. I've seen the sprinkling done in the ceremony.

There is the exorcism aspect of this to consider. Which I believe is a relative part of the whole. And is likely a consideration when recieving converts.

[Ilian]

Nope, full immersion. Some churches do it that way, even if the convert was previously baptized in another confession.

[OnTheWay]

Roman Catholics do infant baptism because of their view of original sin. We preform infant baptism because we want our children to be part of the new covenant, just like male children were circumsized on the 8th day so they were part of the old covenant.

Communion is also quite different. We use leavend bread and wine. The Catholics use unleavend bread, and the individual communicants regularly don't even take the wine. Children take communion for infancy in the Church. I believe the Catholics usually give first communion around 7 or 8.

The Orthodox do not have a concept of mortal of venial sin, or the "living in a state of grace" theology the Catholics do.

The Catholics lock in 7 scraments, whereas the Orthodox do not have a defined number.

While our beliefs in many respects are quite similiar, rooted in the fact both Churches are Apostolic, they have become different in a number of regards. Thus saying we believe exactly the same things is inaccurate.

[Ilian]

We preform infant baptism because we want our children to be part of the new covenant, just like male children were circumsized on the 8th day so they were part of the old covenant.

- We baptize because Christ commanded it.
- Because it cleanses the effects of Original Sin.
- It brings full membership in the church.

See the pieces I posted earlier.

individual communicants regularly don't even take the wine. I don't believe that's true for Roman Catholics. Eastern Catholics commune the way we do (the ones of Byzantine heritage).

The Orthodox do not have a concept of mortal of venial sinhttp://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=27266984&postcount=4

The Catholics lock in 7 scraments, whereas the Orthodox do not have a defined number.There are seven generally recognized sacraments. Any priest when asked how many there are would not respond "there's an undefined number".