Sinner's Prayer?

[sklippstein]

I was told by a Prot friend of mine that in order for me to be saved, i MUST recite the sinner's prayer.  So my question goes out to all Prot friends in here.....do u believe this?

IS this the only way that I can be saved? 

[Job_38]

I have to disagree, because I said this when I was 7 and I was recently became one of Gods.

[sklippstein]

Job......that's what i was wondering.....if just reciting a "sinner's prayer" is the way to salvation.....why isn't it in the bible? I was a little surprised by my friend's answer in the fact that he said it was something that must be done in order for salvation.

[HesMyAll]

A person could say the sinner's prayer a hundred times a day and not be saved. 

I think that what your friend might have meant is that repentance is necessary for salvation.  To tell God that you are sorry for sinning against Him and to cleanse you of those sins.  I don't think there is any formula or any certain words that must be said.  Just a sincere heart longing for God and for salvation. :bow:

[Auntie]

Today at 01:28 PM sklippstein said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685296#post685296)

Job......that's what i was wondering.....if just reciting a "sinner's prayer" is the way to salvation.....why isn't it in the bible? I was a little surprised by my friend's answer in the fact that he said it was something that must be done in order for salvation.



It's in the Bible, it's the parable of the Pharasee and the publican:
(But I don't think it's necessary for salvation, rather Jesus teaching us how to be humble before the Lord.)

Luke 18:9-14
"9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."


Edited to add:

I pray this prayer everyday, it reminds me to be humble before the Lord, that I should never come to the Lord with pride in myself.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Today at 02:44 PM Auntie said this in Post #5 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685315#post685315)

It's in the Bible, it's the parable of the Pharasee and the publican:
(But I don't think it's necessary for salvation, rather Jesus teaching us how to be humble before the Lord.)

Luke 18:9-14
"9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."



Then yes, I suppose it would be necessary to pray the sinners prayer.  GOD BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER.

That's good Auntie, thank's for pointing that out.  I was just thinking "what is the sinners prayer, except a sinner crying out to God for mercy?"




 

[Job_38]

The only problem is when those who never said it claim to be saved and have fruit of it. Such as Paul. We never see an account of that.

[seebs]

I think the idea that there's a specific set of magic words you say that saves you is superstitious at best, idolatry at worst. It's the inevitable progression; someone has a real relationship with God, and describes what happened to him. Someone else writes it down and says "doing this is useful", even though it may not be - it's not the action, it's the changes in heart and soul that *produced* the action. And then, a few people later, you've got people saying you HAVE to do this, or you go to Hell.

I don't recall either way whether or not I've ever said "The Sinner's Prayer". I'm not going to, now; that would be like slapping God in the face and saying "The promises you've made to me, the fulfillment of which has changed my life, aren't good enough for me."

[Auntie]

Seebs, I think the verses are a call to humbleness, and not at all necessary for salvation. If anything, I think Jesus was saying how much it irritates Him for people to be boastful at the expense of others. Like if I prayed "Thank you God that I am not a lowly sinner, like that sorry so-and-so publican is". Similar to the way people say their sins are not as bad as other peoples sins, and so that makes them more righteous. Jesus hates that sort of thing. We are all sinners. The sinners prayer is a humble way of keeping that in mind, but certainly not a necessary thing to do.

[Job_38]

Tell me: What is humility?

And do you watch Joyce Meyers?

[sklippstein]

Job i watch her......i enjoy her! But seriously i think that if u are sincere in repentance.... is it necessary to recite the sinner's prayer in order to be saved? Do u have to use those SPECIFIC words in order to be saved?

[Lotar]

The sinner's prayer is no specific set of words. It is just the prayer we say, when we finally repent of our sins and follow Christ. If you have repented of your sin's, and follow the Lord, you are saved. Anyone who tells you otherwise is misled, following some set ritual is not God's way, that is man's way.

[sklippstein]

Yesterday at 11:10 PM Lotar said this in Post #12 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686339#post686339)

The sinner's prayer is no specific set of words. It is just the prayer we say, when we finally repent of our sins and follow Christ. If you have repented of your sin's, and follow the Lord, you are saved. Anyone who tells you otherwise is misled, following some set ritual is not God's way, that is man's way.




 

Lotar, i agree following a rictual prayer is not God's way.  It's what is in ur heart with a sincere.......SINCERE repentance.  Repentance is to TURN away from sin and not return to it.  Does that mean we can't fall?  No....we will fall and fail......but by God's grace we can get back up. 

Lotar......u said the "sinner's prayer is no specific set of words".....then u said "it is just the prayer we say".....ha....so is there a specific prayer or not?

[eldermike]

The sinners prayer is simple agreement with God that His Son's death on a cross was necessary. The words do not matter, it's just a giving up of yourself and allowing the saving work of the cross of Jesus to begin in your life.

Blessings

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 07:26 AM sklippstein said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685052#post685052)

I was told by a Prot friend of mine that in order for me to be saved, i MUST recite the sinner's prayer.  So my question goes out to all Prot friends in here.....do u believe this?

IS this the only way that I can be saved? 

Your friend seriously needs to study the Bible and stop giving out advice because saying the sinner's prayer doesn't have anything to do with being saved.

God bless

[sklippstein]

thanks y'all.....i'm glad that everyone agrees is not the words spoken, but the sincerity of the repentant heart and the desire to serve the Lord.

[Reformationist]

Today at 01:34 PM sklippstein said this in Post #16 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687763#post687763)

thanks y'all.....i'm glad that everyone agrees is not the words spoken, but the sincerity of the repentant heart and the desire to serve the Lord.

Sorry bro, I don't think that's why we're saved either.  I think the reason we have a sincere heart and a desire to serve the Lord is because we're saved, not a means to be saved.

God bless

[sklippstein]

Today at 04:50 PM Reformationist said this in Post #17 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687807#post687807)

Sorry bro, I don't think that's why we're saved either.  I think the reason we have a sincere heart and a desire to serve the Lord is because we're saved, not a means to be saved.

God bless




I'll have to respond to this after i have a good cry Reform..........sorry bro?  DO Y"ALL look at the pink?  Ur the 3rd person to call me bro or him.... :cry: :cry: 

Is it the name that y'all think i'm male?  do i need to change it?

 

[Auntie]

Today at 03:54 PM sklippstein said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687820#post687820)

I'll have to respond to this after i have a good cry Reform..........sorry bro?  DO Y"ALL look at the pink?  Ur the 3rd person to call me bro or him.... :cry: :cry: 

Is it the name that y'all think i'm male?  do i need to change it?

 




I was just about to tell Ref that you are female!:D

[Reformationist]

Today at 01:54 PM sklippstein said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687820#post687820)

I'll have to respond to this after i have a good cry Reform..........sorry bro?  DO Y"ALL look at the pink?  Ur the 3rd person to call me bro or him.... :cry: :cry: 

Is it the name that y'all think i'm male?  do i need to change it?

 

Ooops!!  Terribly sorry.  Let me tell you something.  Guys, for the most part, have a bit of chauvanism that is a part of who they are.  I don't normally check to see the gender of whose post I comment on and I normally just assume that they are guys, unless I have a reason to believe otherwise.  Rest assured I feel sufficiently abashed at my mistake and will, from this point forward, not make that assumption.

Please forgive me.  And no, there is nothing in your name that implies gender.

God bless,

a big dumb male :sorry:

[sklippstein]

thank you Auntie :hug:

[seebs]

Today at 03:54 PM sklippstein said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687820#post687820)

I'll have to respond to this after i have a good cry Reform..........sorry bro?  DO Y"ALL look at the pink?  Ur the 3rd person to call me bro or him.... :cry: :cry: 

Is it the name that y'all think i'm male?  do i need to change it?



Maybe you need breast enhancement surgery?

/me ducks and runs.

[sklippstein]

Reform.........all is forgiven and forgotten :hug: , i'll respond to ur post when i come back later tonight.

God bless u:)

[sklippstein]

Seebs........NOPE don't need that ;)

[OLDoMiNiON]

LOL, "ya'll" are funny ;)

I think the sinners prayer is just a set of sentances that are sure to cover everything that you need to say, or simply think sincerely to be saved.

Simply accept that Jesus Christ is who the Holy Bible says He is; Almighty God in the Flesh.
That He died for you, rose from the dead, and be willing to turn away from your sins, and follow Him.

Trusting God's Word is what counts:

God promises:

If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your HEART that God raised him from the dead, you will be SAVED.
For it is with your heart that you believe, and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are SAVED.
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Romans 10:9-10

Do what God says you must do to be saved.

1) Believe in your heart that God's Son, Jesus Christ is alive today, risen from the dead. And that He died for you.
2) Trust that Jesus is Almighty God in the Flesh as God's Word declares. Jn. 12:41+45; Is. 6:5; Jn. 1:1+14; Rev. 1:8, Rev 22:13+16; Is. 48:12; Lk. 6:5
3) Confess it, say it, tell it.
4) Call on Him to save you.

The sinners prayer is just a way to say this, but aslong as you say the above, and really mean it, you will be saved.

[dignitized]

sklipp: to me the "sinners prayer" smacks of salvation by works. If I do A God must do B so that I can be C.

[OLDoMiNiON]

Yes indeed Max

[Terri]

Today at 04:16 PM Br. Max said this in Post #26 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687888#post687888)

sklipp: to me the "sinners prayer" smacks of salvation by works. If I do A God must do B so that I can be C.


 :eek:  :eek:  :eek: A prayer is works--I don't think so.  :)

[Reformationist]

Today at 03:02 PM Terri said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688001#post688001) 

 eek:  :eek:  :eek: A prayer is works--I don't think so.  :)

Umm...how do you define "a work" or "works" Terri?

God bless

[Terri]

Today at 05:04 PM Reformationist said this in Post #29 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688004#post688004)

Umm...how do you define "a work" or "works" Terri?

God bless

 

 
:wave: Reformationist,

I was replying to Max's statement so, my definition in that case was works unto salvation (something you have to do to be saved). :)

Is that what you were asking--or did I misunderstand? [of course that has only happened once in my life! :D ]

[Reformationist]

Today at 03:34 PM Terri said this in Post #30 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688095#post688095)

 

 
:wave: Reformationist,

I was replying to Max's statement so, my definition in that case was works unto salvation (something you have to do to be saved). :)

Is that what you were asking--or did I misunderstand? [of course that has only happened once in my life! :D ]



Basically I was just asking what your definition of a work is since you didn't think prayer was a work.  Or did I misunderstand? (this would be the first time for me :D)

God bless,

don

[chelcb]

Today at 04:16 PM Br. Max said this in Post #26 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687888#post687888)

sklipp: to me the "sinners prayer" smacks of salvation by works. If I do A God must do B so that I can be C.




:clap:

[dignitized]

Today at 06:02 PM Terri said this in Post #28 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688001#post688001)

 :eek:  :eek:  :eek: A prayer is works--I don't think so.  :)




Terri: A prayer can be works yes if it becomes an action which EARNS you salvation. 

[Terri]

Today at 06:14 PM Br. Max said this in Post #33 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688185#post688185)

Terri: A prayer can be works yes if it becomes an action which EARNS you salvation. 



:wave: Max,

So did you ever ask God to save you (to have mercy on you--a poor pitiful sinner)?  If you did, was that a work? 

Not trying to nit-pick.  Just trying to understand your position. :)

[Terri]

Today at 06:06 PM Reformationist said this in Post #31 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688172#post688172)

Basically I was just asking what your definition of a work is since you didn't think prayer was a work.  Or did I misunderstand? (this would be the first time for me :D)

God bless,

don



So, don't leave me hanging. 

Do you approve of my definition or do you have a better one? :)

[Job_38]

Today at 12:25 AM Terri said this in Post #34 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688213#post688213)

:wave: Max,

So did you ever ask God to save you (to have mercy on you--a poor pitiful sinner)?  If you did, was that a work? 

Not trying to nit-pick.  Just trying to understand your position. :)




 

 But it was God who gave me the ability to do this. My salvation came before my vocal action.

[chelcb]

Today at 06:25 PM Terri said this in Post #34 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688213#post688213)

:wave: Max,

So did you ever ask God to save you (to have mercy on you--a poor pitiful sinner)?  If you did, was that a work? 

Not trying to nit-pick.  Just trying to understand your position. :)



Does the bible say that - that is all it takes?

[chelcb]

Today at 06:33 PM Job_38 said this in Post #36 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688239#post688239)

 

 But it was God who gave me the ability to do this. My salvation came before my vocal action.



So God's invitation to be saved is what saves?

[Job_38]

Gods choosing of me is what saves. His loving Grace and Mercy is what saves, and from this is given the ability to follow Him.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[OLDoMiNiON]

read my previous post, thats what the Bible says about how we are saved.

[Job_38]

The only problem I see is that it says for YOU to call. If this is done, then who is saving who?

[OLDoMiNiON]

Well, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - thats pretty self explanitory..

[Ratioann]

If anyone pushes someone towards saying a sinners prayer, they are probably just after another decision for christ. I don't want to say that your church friend doesn't care about you but some seem to just want another notch on their belt.

I thought are salvation came totally through our acceptance of the gift God gave. The prayer is just for thanking God after the gift was received.

[chelcb]

Today at 06:47 PM Job_38 said this in Post #39 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688278#post688278)

Gods choosing of me is what saves. His loving Grace and Mercy is what saves, and from this is given the ability to follow Him.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




So what's all that other stuff that is written in the bible there for?

[dignitized]

Today at 07:25 PM Terri said this in Post #34 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688213#post688213)

:wave: Max,

So did you ever ask God to save you (to have mercy on you--a poor pitiful sinner)?  If you did, was that a work? 

Not trying to nit-pick.  Just trying to understand your position. :)



Terri - one day, by the grace of God, through an act of God given faith, mine eyes were opened and I saw and believed without a shadow of a doubt that HE was the Lord God - King of the Universe - Master - and Savior. 

The only prayer I praid before coming to this was a simple one - Lord, if you are out there and you are real, I want to know you, not of you.  I gave no repentance to recieve salvation. Nothing I can or will do will ever be good enough for my salvation and to say that you must do this ACT (prayer the "sinners" prayer) to be saved is salvation by your efforts and thus salvation by works.

Secondly, I would add that MANY people have prayed the "sinners prayer" including one Larry Flynn publisher of Hustler Magazine.  Praying a prayer does not make one saved.

[sklippstein]

Today at 07:57 PM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688303#post688303)

Well, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - thats pretty self explanitory..




um.....so i don't have to have a repentative heart, i can just call upon the Lord and i'm saved?

[sklippstein]

Today at 08:06 PM Br. Max said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688322#post688322)

Terri - one day, by the grace of God, through an act of God given faith, mine eyes were opened and I saw and believed without a shadow of a doubt that HE was the Lord God - King of the Universe - Master - and Savior. 

The only prayer I praid before coming to this was a simple one - Lord, if you are out there and you are real, I want to know you, not of you.  I gave no repentance to recieve salvation. Nothing I can or will do will ever be good enough for my salvation and to say that you must do this ACT (prayer the "sinners" prayer) to be saved is salvation by your efforts and thus salvation by works.

Secondly, I would add that MANY people have prayed the "sinners prayer" including one Larry Flynn publisher of Hustler Magazine.  Praying a prayer does not make one saved.



good post Br. Max

[Terri]

Today at 07:06 PM Br. Max said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688322#post688322)

Terri - one day, by the grace of God, through an act of God given faith, mine eyes were opened and I saw and believed without a shadow of a doubt that HE was the Lord God - King of the Universe - Master - and Savior. 

The only prayer I praid before coming to this was a simple one - Lord, if you are out there and you are real, I want to know you, not of you.  I gave no repentance to recieve salvation. Nothing I can or will do will ever be good enough for my salvation and to say that you must do this ACT (prayer the "sinners" prayer) to be saved is salvation by your efforts and thus salvation by works.

Secondly, I would add that MANY people have prayed the "sinners prayer" including one Larry Flynn publisher of Hustler Magazine.  Praying a prayer does not make one saved.



Max I never said the sinners prayer before I came to know the Lord either.

I really don't think anyone that suggests that someone say the prayer is saying that the prayer will save them.  It is just an affirmation that you are putting your faith in God in my view.  It is just a way to reach out to God as you did in your prayer. :)

[sklippstein]

Today at 04:50 PM Reformationist said this in Post #17 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=687807#post687807)

Sorry , I don't think that's why we're saved either.  I think the reason we have a sincere heart and a desire to serve the Lord is because we're saved, not a means to be saved.

God bless




 

Reform, I know u believe in predestination.......so i'm curious as to ur believe on how we are saved?  IF only those predestinated can be saved, what's the point? 

OH.....and BTW......hee hee i edited the "bro" out of ur post ;)

[Terri]

Today at 07:17 PM sklippstein said this in Post #46 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688341#post688341)

um.....so i don't have to have a repentative heart, i can just call upon the Lord and i'm saved?



When I called upon the Lord I didn't even know what repent meant!

All you have to do is call upon Him and he will guide you into everything you need to know. :)

[OLDoMiNiON]

Today at 01:17 AM sklippstein said this in Post #46 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688341#post688341)

um.....so i don't have to have a repentative heart, i can just call upon the Lord and i'm saved?




No, that was in answer to Job_38... there is more in that verse about how we should go about being saved.

If you admit that Jesus is you lord and savior, and that he died to save you from your sins, by crying our to him like says he did Br. Max, then you are implying that you are a sinner... and God would surely recognise that! You can't say "Jesus i believe you die for me, and i now recognise you as my Lord and Saviour", without admitting that you are a sinner either in words or thoughts! The two things go hand in had!

[Ezra]

The "sinner's prayer" is not a pat formula, and because it has been made into one, it has caused a lot of confusion. It is a genuine response to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit that we are indeed sinners, lost and on our way to hell, as well as the convincing work of the Holy Spirit, that Christ did indeed die for our sins accordping to the Scriptures and rose again the third day for our justification.

So when we turn to God to receive His gift of eternal life or salvation, which is the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, whatever we say to the Lord must include the thoughts behind all of these:

1. God be merciful to me a sinner (Luke 18:13)
2. Lord, if you wilt thou canst make me clean (Matt.8:2)
3. If I may but touch the hem of His garment, I shall be whole (Matt.9:21)
4. Thou Son of David, have mercy on us (Matt.9:27)
5. Then came she and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me (Matt. 15:25)
6. Lord, that I may receive my sight (Luke 18:41) Lord that our eyes may be opened (Matt. 20:33)
7. Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold (Luke 19:8) [REPENTANCE IS A NECESSITY]
8. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:37) [FAITH IS A NECESSITY]
9. Lord, I receive you into my heart today (John 1:12-13) [RECEIVING CHRIST IS A NECESSITY]
10. Lord, I open the door of my heart to you now (Rev. 3:20)
11. Lord, I want the Water of Life from you right now (Rev.22:17)
12. Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? (Acts 9:6).

[OLDoMiNiON]

Amen!

[dignitized]

what need of saying a sinners prayer do I have IF I live a repentant and changed life?

[chelcb]

Today at 07:24 PM Terri said this in Post #50 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688352#post688352)

When I called upon the Lord I didn't even know what repent meant!

All you have to do is call upon Him and he will guide you into everything you need to know. :)



 

and the biblical proof is...

[OLDoMiNiON]

I quoted it before! Read back, please! :)

[Lotar]

A note to the Catholics here, this is getting dangerously close to becoming a debate, there is a thread for this in the debate forum.

Just a reminder ;)

[Lotar]

Now give me a little grace here ;)

Do Catholics ever make up their own prayers, or do they just recite prewritten prayers?

The reason I ask this is because this may be why you are having such a hard time understanding what we mean by the sinner's prayer. This is just a general desciption of what ever prayer someone will say when they repent and give thier lives to Christ. Its not some specific prayer, like the Lord's Prayer. And what I don't understand is how you can take this as works. If a person is to be saved, they must make that desision, God gave us free will. Its not like we say, "say this prayer and you will go to heaven." That is not how it is. Even if you you think you have never said the sinner's prayer, odds are you have. Have you ever at one point asked God for his forgivenes? Well, the first time you did this, and meant it, thats what we mean.

I'm non-denominational, we have altercalls, from time to time. I've never been down to one, but there is no one at my church that would say I wasn't saved. We don't do this because this is what you have to do to be saved, we don't believe that. We just believe in giving people as many opportunities as possible to make that descition. Is there something wrong with that?

[seebs]

I think the problem here is that I've met people who believe there's a specific set of words that you *MUST* pray to be saved.

Every Catholic I've talked to makes up prayers. Keep in mind, the most-repeated prayer of all time probably includes a swear-word; something to the effect of "Oh, ----, HELP!".

I occasionally repurpose poems or songs to be prayers; my .sig is the chorus of a Metallica song, and I'm pretty sure they didn't mean it as a prayer, but I do.

[Lotar]

I don't think anyone really meant that, maybe I'm wrong. I think there is just a lot of confusion. Sometimes easy things are hard to explain correctly.

[Job_38]

I am doing a study through Romans and Paul is talking of circumsision. Now, this is not a big thing in our culture, but the "Sinners Prayer" is. Paul makes it clear that being circumsised is good, but if it is not geniuines, might as wellk not be.

[dignitized]

Any act that must be done to RECEIVE salvation is an act of Salvation by works. A sinners prayer can be a sign of salvation perhaps a public confession of an inward transformation - but to say that I must pray some prayer - and more often than not churches set up their rote formula of words that they repeat and call the sinners prayer - is to say I must do a WORK to receive my salvation.

I have and I'm sure all catholic and protestant all can agree that there is nothing wrong with praying any HEARTFELT and conscientious prayer. Let us not however forget that many who say Lord, Lord will not be saved. The sinners prayer is no magic formula or a guarantee of salvation. I know of many, as I have said who prayed the sinners prayer who have NO relationship with Christ what ever - unless you believe that Larry flynn is saved . . . .

[OLDoMiNiON]

yes Br.Max, precisely!

I think the problem here is that I've met people who believe there's a specific set of words that you *MUST* pray to be saved.
But thats mans doctrine, not Gods, isn't it?!

[Blindfaith]

Tell me: What is humility?

That's a good question Job.  How about starting a new thread?  It should get some good discussion :)

[Blindfaith]

"My" Sinner's Prayer was bawling like an out-of-control-baby at the base of my rocking chair willingly and desperately giving everything to Jesus, and proclaiming Him Lord of my life.

I repented of all of the sins I could name/remember, and repented of the ones that I couldn't.  I acknowledged that I am a sinner, in need of a Savior, and that I can never have eternal life without Him and His saving grace.  Admitting that He is Lord of my life, not me. 

It wasn't a set of specific words, but it was the cry of my heart to Him to Save me, and to Thank Him, and a promise to Love Him.  He was there, holding me, and loving me while the angels celebrated in Heaven, as they have for all of you here when you also were saved. :)

That's my definition of the Sinner's prayer.  I still go back to that "place" with Him, to get back to ground zero and submit what and who I am to Him. 

~Peace in Christ,

BF

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 04:35 PM chelcb said this in Post #38 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688247#post688247)

So God's invitation to be saved is what saves?

No.  It was never an invitation.  We are born from above.  If you can, try to imagine how much cooperation you provided for your physical birth.  You did things, to be sure.  But, what you did was the natural result of what was done to you.  It wasn't like your parents "invited" you to be born.  It wasn't like they consulted you to see if you were interested in being born.  It wasn't like you had a choice.  You were born because your parents, with the grace of God, did something to bring that about.  You were the one it was done to, not the one it was done with.

Our physical birth is a parallel to our spiritual birth.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 04:28 PM Terri said this in Post #35 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688224#post688224)

So, don't leave me hanging. 

Do you approve of my definition or do you have a better one? :)

I would define a work as anything we do.  Anything.  Regardless of what it accomplishes, if we do it, it's a work.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 04:33 PM Job_38 said this in Post #36 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688239#post688239)

 

 But it was God who gave me the ability to do this. My salvation came before my vocal action.

Amen!!  Short, simple and true.

Blessings to you my brother!!

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 05:00 PM chelcb said this in Post #44 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688310#post688310)

So what's all that other stuff that is written in the bible there for?

The Bible serves three main purposes.  First, as a model for law and government.  Second, to tell us what we should do.  Third, to tell us what we shouldn't do.

The Bible is a story about God setting a people aside for His Son, redeeming them, and conforming them to the image of His Son's righteousness.

Salvation was something done to us, not with us.

Sanctification, however, is a different story.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 05:06 PM Br. Max said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688322#post688322)

Nothing I can or will do will ever be good enough for my salvation and to say that you must do this ACT (prayer the "sinners" prayer) to be saved is salvation by your efforts and thus salvation by works.

Don't Franciscan's believe that you must be baptized in water to enter the Kingdom of God?

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 05:17 PM sklippstein said this in Post #46 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688341#post688341)

um.....so i don't have to have a repentative heart, i can just call upon the Lord and i'm saved?

Having a repentant heart is a sign of being saved, not a means to be saved.  No one genuinely calls on the Lord for forgiveness that is not already saved by God's divine intervention.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 05:23 PM sklippstein said this in Post #49 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688350#post688350)

 

Reform, I know u believe in predestination.......so i'm curious as to ur believe on how we are saved?

How are we saved?  God, according to the counsel of His own Will, saves you.  It's something done to us, not with our cooperation.

IF only those predestinated can be saved, what's the point?

What's the point in what, evangelism? :confused:

OH.....and BTW......hee hee i edited the "bro" out of ur post ;)

Thanks!

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 05:24 PM Terri said this in Post #50 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688352#post688352)

All you have to do is call upon Him and he will guide you into everything you need to know. :)

All you have to do for what?  Are you saying that you "have to" call upon the Lord to be saved?

God bless




 

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 10:20 PM Lotar said this in Post #58 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689064#post689064)

I'm non-denominational, we have altercalls, from time to time. I've never been down to one, but there is no one at my church that would say I wasn't saved. We don't do this because this is what you have to do to be saved, we don't believe that. We just believe in giving people as many opportunities as possible to make that descition. Is there something wrong with that?

So you're saved because you made the right decision? :confused:

[chelcb]

REF-

Salvation was something done to us, not with us.

You don't think for us?

Sanctification, however, is a different story.

Do you think you can have one with out the other?

[chelcb]

How are we saved? God, according to the counsel of His own Will, saves you. It's something done to us, not with our cooperation.

Is that in the bible?

Can God give us all the grace that would make us all capable of choosing him?

[chelcb]

Today at 10:26 AM Reformationist said this in Post #66 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689732#post689732)

No.  It was never an invitation.  We are born from above.  If you can, try to imagine how much cooperation you provided for your physical birth.  You did things, to be sure.  But, what you did was the natural result of what was done to you.  It wasn't like your parents "invited" you to be born.  It wasn't like they consulted you to see if you were interested in being born.  It wasn't like you had a choice.  You were born because your parents, with the grace of God, did something to bring that about.  You were the one it was done to, not the one it was done with.

Our physical birth is a parallel to our spiritual birth.

God bless




Would I be able to find this in scripture?

[Reformationist]

Today at 08:45 AM chelcb said this in Post #75 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689774#post689774)

REF-

You don't think for us?

Yes chelcb, for us. 

Do you think you can have one with out the other?

No.  I'm just saying that God divinely regenerates us.  He brings us back to life.  Prior to that we were dead and unable to remedy that by "calling out," saying a prayer, going down for an altar call, getting baptized, etc.  Our sanctification is the process of God purging our sinfulness from us.  This involves us being involved in life and the trials that accompany life.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Today at 08:47 AM chelcb said this in Post #76 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689778#post689778)

Is that in the bible?

No chelcb, I made it up. :rolleyes:  

Can God give us all the grace that would make us all capable of choosing him?

Choosing Him for what?

[Reformationist]

Today at 08:49 AM chelcb said this in Post #77 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689780#post689780)

Would I be able to find this in scripture?

Sure.  Try anywhere between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21.

God bless

[chelcb]

Today at 10:52 AM Reformationist said this in Post #80 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689788#post689788)

Sure.  Try anywhere between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21.

God bless




Funny Ref, real funny...

[Reformationist]

Today at 08:58 AM chelcb said this in Post #81 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689807#post689807)

Funny Ref, real funny...

LOL! ;) :D

[OLDoMiNiON]

.. i thought it was funny neway! :)

[Terri]

Today at 10:39 AM Reformationist said this in Post #73 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689765#post689765)

All you have to do for what?  Are you saying that you "have to" call upon the Lord to be saved?

God bless




 



I called upon Him to help me.  But, I really feel like I have known Him all of my life.  At what point I "became saved", I really don't know.

I believe I had the Spirit of Truth even as a small child.   I was so disappointed when I discovered that people had lied to me about Santa Clause.  :D

[Reformationist]

Today at 02:28 PM Terri said this in Post #84 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690403#post690403)

I called upon Him to help me.  But, I really feel like I have known Him all of my life.  At what point I "became saved", I really don't know.

I believe I had the Spirit of Truth even as a small child.   I was so disappointed when I discovered that people had lied to me about Santa Clause.  :D

LOL!  Well then, you have been truly blessed to have a God filled life.

God bless,

Don

[Lotar]

So you're saved because you made the right decision?

I am saved because of what Christ has done for me. But I must make the choice to recieve this gift.

The problem with predestination is that it contradicts the concept of free will. If you have free will, which the bible clearly preaches, God cannot force salvation on you, or prevent you from choosing it. Why? Because then it would no longer be free will, and God does not contradict Himself. Can you resist God's will, yes, and the bible teaches this. Am I saying that God is not all powerful? No, but I am saying that He does not force His will on us. God wants us to gennuinly love and praise Him. In order to do this, we must have a choice in the matter. Lets say your married (I assume you are because of the baby picture). Does it make you happy when she compliments you and tells you she loves you? I assume so. Now, would it feel the same if you knew she had no choice in the matter, she had to say those things? Even if she thought it was her choice? I doubt it. Why? Because the option to choose otherwise is what makes it so valuable. Otherwise God might as well have made robots.

God says that He wants everyone to be saved. Well if this is what He wants, and he chooses how is saved and who is not, why isn't everyone saved? Why does the bible tell us to spread the word, if God has already chosen who will and will not be saved? I mean, they'll be saved no matter what anyways, so why bother?

For perhaps the first time, I must agree with Chelcb ;)

If this is taught in the Bible, please quote it.

 

Someone said something about being saved before they said any prayer. This is correct, you are saved when you make the decision, not when you say the words. So if you say the words and don't make the decision, you are not saved. God looks at our heart and our motives.

[Lotar]

Oh, and I forgot. I think it was Chelb who said something about falling on our face, and needing to repent again. Sorry, to many posts to sort through. Yes, we believe this. We don't believe you loose your salvation when you sin next, but you do need to continually repent.
If your walking down the street, you lose your temper, say some naughty word, and proptly get run over by a car, you are not going to hell. But you must make sure to continually repent.

[dignitized]

Today at 07:45 PM Lotar said this in Post #86 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690723#post690723)


For perhaps the first time, I must agree with Chelcb ;) 





 

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]!! isn't this one of the signs of the apocalypse????:eek:

RUN!!!!!!! :D:D


:eek:

[Terri]

Today at 06:53 PM Lotar said this in Post #87 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690740#post690740)

If your walking down the street, you lose your temper, say some naughty word, and proptly get run over by a car, you are not going to hell. 



Do you have scripture to support this?

http://luvjc.net/emoticons/laughing/0005.gif

[Terri]

Today at 06:58 PM Br. Max said this in Post #88 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690755#post690755)

 

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]!! isn't this one of the signs of the apocalypse????:eek:

RUN!!!!!!! :D:D


:eek:



http://luvjc.net/emoticons/laughing/0008.gif

I have to agree--this couldn't be good for the universe!

[Job_38]

About free will, where does the Bible affirm this? If anything, the Bible talks of free choice, but we cannot escape Gods will. To talk of free will means we have the ability to overcome Gods.

[Lotar]

About free will, where does the Bible affirm this? If anything, the Bible talks of free choice, but we cannot escape Gods will. To talk of free will means we have the ability to overcome Gods.

Perhaps I can overcome Apollo's will, but Zeus', I can not.  :sorry:

 :eek: THE BLASPHEMY :eek:

If God wished to force His will upon us, of course we could not overcome it.

Now free choice, without free will :scratch:

Anyone else find this to be impossible? We can choose to do what God allows us to do.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

yeh, i see where you're going there... :)

[sklippstein]

Today at 01:28 AM Lotar said this in Post #92 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691526#post691526)

Perhaps I can overcome Apollo's will, but Zeus', I can not.  :sorry:

 :eek: THE BLASPHEMY :eek:

If God wished to force His will upon us, of course we could not overcome it.

Now free choice, without free will :scratch:

Anyone else find this to be impossible? We can choose to do what God allows us to do.

 



Lotar, exactly......so if God gives us free choice to accept his love, then how can predesination come into play?  What would be the point of free will?

[eldermike]

You are free to choose Lords. That's it!
God knows who will choose Him.
Simple.

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 04:45 PM Lotar said this in Post #86 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690723#post690723)

I am saved because of what Christ has done for me. But I must make the choice to recieve this gift.

So are you saved because Christ died for you or are you saved because you "make the choice to receive this gift?"  I'm not asking you if your choice saves you.  I'm asking if you feel that His sacrifice saved you or do you believe that His sacrifice wasn't implemented in your case until you added to His perfect (which means complete, by the way) sacrifice by "making the choice to receive the gift." 

The problem with predestination is that it contradicts the concept of free will.

I'd say, first off, you have an errant view of predestination.  Second, you're right.  It does contradict the biblically unsupported concept of free will.

If you have free will, which the bible clearly preaches, God cannot force salvation on you, or prevent you from choosing it.

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]!!  You're right!  It's so clear now. :rolleyes:

What the Bible clearly teaches is that man, after the Fall, is depraved, evil, an enemy of God, at war with God, dead in their trespasses, unable to reconcile with God, unrighteous, does not desire the things of God, is not thankful to God nor does he glorify God, does not seek after God, and destined to hell.  I don't know what Bible you use but if that's what you got from the Bible you might really want to do a bit more research.

Why? Because then it would no longer be free will, and God does not contradict Himself.

I'm really curious to read Scripture that says unregenerate man loves God and seeks Him freely.  I could show you a ton of Scripture that clearly shows that man does not seek God.  Yet you think that not only does man seek God, fallen man loves God.

Can you resist God's will, yes, and the bible teaches this.

God's Will is not summed up as "God's Will," at least not in the Bible.  God's Will is not as simple as "all men being saved."  God has a permissive Will.  God has a decreed Will.

Let me ask you something, do you believe you can stop God's decreed Will from coming to pass?

Am I saying that God is not all powerful? No, but I am saying that He does not force His will on us. God wants us to gennuinly love and praise Him. In order to do this, we must have a choice in the matter.

Do you think anything happened to man's nature when he fell from grace?  I am lost as to how someone can say that Jesus "saved them" but then say that they "freely chose to love and praise God."  Look man, REGENERATE MAN struggles with his old FALLEN nature but has the desire and ability to do for God's good pleasure.  Unregenerate man is unrighteous.  Loving God is a righteous action.  An unrighteous creation cannot make a righteous dicision.  Yet, according to you, it's clearly preached in the Bible that fallen, unrighteous man does make the righteous choice to freely serve God.  Yeah.  Don't see.  Maybe you could point it out.

Lets say your married (I assume you are because of the baby picture). Does it make you happy when she compliments you and tells you she loves you? I assume so. Now, would it feel the same if you knew she had no choice in the matter, she had to say those things? Even if she thought it was her choice? I doubt it. Why? Because the option to choose otherwise is what makes it so valuable. Otherwise God might as well have made robots.

Lotar, do yourself a favor and read a few books on predestination.  I recommend anything by R.C. Sproul.  There are many great reformed authors but Dr. Sproul is very easy to follow.  Being made into robots is the common view of predestination for people who don't understand anything about predestination.  Also, and this is really relavent, I'm not God.  My wife is not evil.  We are not enemies.  I am not sovereign.  So comparing the interaction of my wife and I to the interaction of God and fallen man shows not only your ignorance of the nature of fallen man but your desire to elevate fallen man and perpetuate the unbiblical idea that man retains some measure of righteousness after the Fall. 

God says that He wants everyone to be saved. Well if this is what He wants, and he chooses how is saved and who is not, why isn't everyone saved?

This is actually a great question and one that I would be happy to answer.  I don't think you have a genuine desire to know but I'll enlighten you anway.  The verses that deal with it being "God's Will" that everyone be saved and that none should perish are speaking of the permissive Will of God and His nature.  God is benevolent and does not delight in the necessary eternal death of the unregenerate but, believe me, it is His decreed Will that it come to pass. 

Why does the bible tell us to spread the word, if God has already chosen who will and will not be saved? I mean, they'll be saved no matter what anyways, so why bother?

Evangelism is one of the methods that God uses to enlighten and gather His flock.  This flock isn't random in size.  God knows who are His.  A person's ability to convincingly deliver the Truth of the Gospel never has been, nor will it ever be, the reason someone comes to faith.  That is a gift of God's grace which He bestows upon whomever is so pleases Him to do so.  You could be the best preacher in the world but if you are talking to someone who has not been given ears to hear you are wasting your time.  God uses His children to spread His Word.  It's not an issue of someone being saved "no matter what."  What did you think, that we "win souls for the Lord?"  God gathers His flock.  You don't gather it for Him.  He just uses us to bring about His Will.  I have yet to understand people incessant need to be autonomous.  I think it stems from our fallen nature that desires to credit ourselves with "seeing the Truth and making the right decision" rather than "being enlightened to the Truth by the Divine intervention of God and being brought to the Truth because it pleased God to do so." 

If this is taught in the Bible, please quote it.

If what is taught in the Bible, predestination?  Lotar, either you don't read the Bible or you don't know what Calvary Chapel teaches.  ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES teach a doctrine of predestination, yes, even Calvary Chapel churches.  The difference is what that their view on it is, not whether it is a valid biblical theme.

Someone said something about being saved before they said any prayer. This is correct, you are saved when you make the decision, not when you say the words. So if you say the words and don't make the decision, you are not saved. God looks at our heart and our motives.

I ask again (though I've yet to get a straight answer to this), are you saved because you made the right decision.  I didn't ask if salvation was available because of your decision.  You have said that because of Jesus' sacrifice salvation was available to you, right?  What I'm asking is, what is it that makes that sacrifice be manifested in you?

Thanks,

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 04:53 PM Lotar said this in Post #87 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690740#post690740)
We don't believe you loose your salvation when you sin next, but you do need to continually repent.
If your walking down the street, you lose your temper, say some naughty word, and proptly get run over by a car, you are not going to hell. But you must make sure to continually repent.

Let me preface this by saying that I don't disagree with this, yet.  I would like to know why it is that you feel "you must make sure to continually repent."  Is there some reason that this is a "must?"  Again, I don't disagree with what you've said here, I just wanted clarification.

Thanks,

God bless

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 06:55 PM Job_38 said this in Post #91 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691038#post691038)

About free will, where does the Bible affirm this? If anything, the Bible talks of free choice, but we cannot escape Gods will. To talk of free will means we have the ability to overcome Gods.

Nicely said. :)

You know, it's funny.  I have a bunch of discussions on this MB about "free will" vs. predestination.  I have stated on numerous occasions that I believe people have the free agency (this is just what I call it) to make choices.  IOW, throughout our life we make a bunch of decisions.  However, these decisions do not affect God's Plan.  The overwhelming initial response to the idea of predestination is that God must make a person a robot that can't make their own choices.  This is not what predestination is.

God bless you Job,

Don

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 10:28 PM Lotar said this in Post #92 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691526#post691526)

Anyone else find this to be impossible? We can choose to do what God allows us to do.

Well Lotar, can you "choose" to do anything?  If not, who is it that you think limited you?

God bless

[chelcb]

Yesterday at 08:55 PM Job_38 said this in Post #91 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691038#post691038)

About free will, where does the Bible affirm this? If anything, the Bible talks of free choice, but we cannot escape Gods will. To talk of free will means we have the ability to overcome Gods.




Duet. 30:19

[chelcb]

Yesterday at 06:53 PM Lotar said this in Post #87 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690740#post690740)

Oh, and I forgot. I think it was Chelb who said something about falling on our face, and needing to repent again. Sorry, to many posts to sort through. Yes, we believe this. We don't believe you loose your salvation when you sin next, but you do need to continually repent.
If your walking down the street, you lose your temper, say some naughty word, and proptly get run over by a car, you are not going to hell. But you must make sure to continually repent.



 :confused:  when did I say that? BUt for good measure, saying a bad word is not a mortal sin.

[Reformationist]

Today at 10:34 AM chelcb said this in Post #100 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=692606#post692606)

Duet. 30:19

Moses was talking to THE JEWS, God's chosen people.  Moses was telling THE JEWS that God has created a covenant with them and they have had the truth revealed to them so live as if they know the truth, rather than as people who don't even know God.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Today at 10:34 AM chelcb said this in Post #100 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=692606#post692606)

Duet. 30:19

Is this the entire basis for believing in "free will" or is there anything else?

[aggie03]

Joshua 24:14 is an excellent illustration. I hate to run in on one of these conversations half way through...it makes it hard to catch up and contribute. Reformationist, are you a calvinist, or do you just believe in predestination? That would just help me to better understand what you mean when you are talking about predestination - also, any further explanation you could offer besides a mere title would be awesome.

[Reformationist]

Today at 02:18 PM aggie03 said this in Post #104 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=693021#post693021)
Joshua 24:14 is an excellent illustration.

This is a specific command given to a covenant people.  This was addressed to God's chosen people.  The author of this book was not talking to all people, and certainly not fallen man.

Reformationist, are you a calvinist, or do you just believe in predestination?

I am a reformed Christian, not a reformed Calvinist.  I think John Calvin has accurately interpreted the Bible, insofar as I have encountered his teachings.  However, Calvin was a created being and, thus, capable of error.  That is not to say that I find any of his teachings to be erroneous.  I'm just sure I haven't read all his teachings so I couldn't speak authoritatively.  And yes, I believe in predestination. :)

also, any further explanation you could offer besides a mere title would be awesome.

Well, I believe that man was created in perfect communion with God.  I believe that man freely chose to rebel against God.  I think that rebellion was part of God's Plan.  I think the Fall was part of God's Plan.  I think that God's providential actions of sending His Son to atone for the sins of His chosen people was foreordained.  I think that man's nature, and thus his communion with God, was radically corrupted by the Fall.  I think fallen man is depraved, does not seek God, does not desire to do God's Will, evil, unrighteous, motivated by unrighteousness, serves his flesh, God's enemy, and considers God an enemy.  I think that Christ came and lived a perfect, sinless life and died as a propitiation for the sins of God's elect.  I think His death was efficacious.  I think that some people, I have no idea how many, will go to hell.  I think that God does not love everyone.  I think we are saved by the grace of God, through His gift of faith.  I don't think we did, do, or will do anything ever to merit salvation.  I think that our good works are a result of His good work.  I think that God divinely preserves His elect and will fully raise them up on the last day.  I do not think a person who is saved by God can lose their salvation, nor do I think a person who is saved by God would ever give it up.

Hope that helps.

God bless

[aggie03]

On the issue of depravity - how do you think that this is passed along - is it done through the flesh? Are both male and female depraved? How is it passed along - through birth? By the male or the female or through both? Is this depravity total and complete? Are children born depraved? Are unborn children depraved?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions. I'm just very curious and not very knowledgeable on the standpoint that you are presenting, I think that we may have started to talk about it once before but never got into some of the details like this. I would really appreciate any help that you could offer.

[Reformationist]

Today at 02:51 PM aggie03 said this in Post #106 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=693114#post693114)
On the issue of depravity - how do you think that this is passed along - is it done through the flesh?

The fallenness of mankind is perpetuated through the seed of man.

Are both male and female depraved?

Yes.  There is no distinction because both male and female come from the seed of their father.  Their mother's contribution is equally important it's just that when God foreordained the provision of a Savior it was necessary for Him to be born, not of the seed of man, but of woman so as not to inherit the fallen nature.  So, since woman are the ones who give birth God removed the causal agent in the transference of a fallen nature, the seed of man.  Thus, Christ was born of the seed of a woman.  I guess God could have made original sin be passed by the seed of woman and made man be the bearers of babies, but I don't think I'll complain. :D

How is it passed along - through birth?

No, through conception.

By the male or the female or through both?

From the seed of a man.

Is this depravity total and complete?

It is "total and complete" in the sense that there is not an area of fallen man's nature that was not affected by the Fall.  I do not, however, mean to imply that man is as bad as he could possibly be.  There are definite levels of depravity, look at Jeffrey Dahlmer.  I'd say that not everyone is that depraved.  The accurate way of understanding it is to understand that every single thought, inclination, and action of a fallen, unregenerate person is motivated by his fallen nature, and is thus, sinful.

Are children born depraved?

Yes.  If you want to see the epitome of sinfulness find a young child (1 year old).  Every single thing they do is motivated by selfishness.  I say this while having a 1 year old child.  I think he's precious but, at this point, nothing he does is motivated by a desire to serve others.

Are unborn children depraved?

If they are people, they are depraved.  That doesn't mean that their depravity has not been provided for.  I am just not aware that the spiritual disposition of the unborn is spoken of in the Bible.  What I can say is that any whose sins are not atoned for will go to hell.  For all I know all unborn children are provided for in Christ's sacrifice.  I don't really know.  I know that whatever God decreed is the righteous decision.  If any go to hell, then they would never have been saved had they lived. 

Sorry for the bombardment of questions. I'm just very curious and not very knowledgeable on the standpoint that you are presenting, I think that we may have started to talk about it once before but never got into some of the details like this. I would really appreciate any help that you could offer.

Nothing to be sorry about.  In fact, I appreciate the godly way that you are asking these questions, even if you don't agree.  That says volumes about your character and I appreciate it.

God bless,

Don

[Lotar]

when did I say that? BUt for good measure, saying a bad word is not a mortal sin.

Sorry, I thought it was you. I knew someone did, and I thought it was you for some reason.

 So are you saved because Christ died for you or are you saved because you "make the choice to receive this gift?" I'm not asking you if your choice saves you. I'm asking if you feel that His sacrifice saved you or do you believe that His sacrifice wasn't implemented in your case until you added to His perfect (which means complete, by the way) sacrifice by "making the choice to receive the gift."

How is making a choice adding to his His will. I am adding nothing, too make a descision, is not a work. Do I somehow deserve that gift, no, did I somehow earn it, no. I would not have made the right descision if it had not been for the Holy Spirit. But there was never any time at which I could not have rejected it. Just because God knows what will happen, doesn't mean He is exerting his control over us.

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Romans 5:1-2).


&nbsp;[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]!!&nbsp; You're right!&nbsp; It's so clear now. <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" border=0>

What the Bible clearly teaches is that man, after the Fall, is depraved, evil, an enemy of God, at war with God, dead in their trespasses, unable to reconcile with God, unrighteous, does not desire the things of God, is not thankful to God nor does he glorify God, does not seek after God, and destined to hell.&nbsp; I don't know what Bible you use but if that's what you got from the Bible you might really want to do a bit more research.


I really don't know where you get some of these ideas.The bible never says man as a whole is evil. It does say that we are predisposed towards evil. Haven't you ever met a non-christain who was moral. No man is perfect, but we do make the right choices from time to time. We have the free will to do good or evil.

&nbsp;

BTW, I&nbsp; hope you mean Oh My Gosh, maybe you shouldn't use that abreviation, since it stands for taking the Lord's name in vain. ;)

&nbsp;God's Will is not summed up as "God's Will," at least not in the Bible. God's Will is not as simple as "all men being saved." God has a permissive Will. God has a decreed Will.

I would really like to hear a verse that makes that distinction ;)

&nbsp;Do you think anything happened to man's nature when he fell from grace? I am lost as to how someone can say that Jesus "saved them" but then say that they "freely chose to love and praise God." Look man, REGENERATE MAN struggles with his old FALLEN nature but has the desire and ability to do for God's good pleasure. Unregenerate man is unrighteous. Loving God is a righteous action. An unrighteous creation cannot make a righteous dicision. Yet, according to you, it's clearly preached in the Bible that fallen, unrighteous man does make the righteous choice to freely serve God. Yeah. Don't see. Maybe you could point it out.

Man is not righteous, but he is capable of making righteous decitions. Haven't you ever seen people who weren't christians do the right thing?

&nbsp;Lotar, do yourself a favor and read a few books on predestination. I recommend anything by R.C. Sproul. There are many great reformed authors but Dr. Sproul is very easy to follow. Being made into robots is the common view of predestination for people who don't understand anything about predestination. Also, and this is really relavent, I'm not God. My wife is not evil. We are not enemies. I am not sovereign. So comparing the interaction of my wife and I to the interaction of God and fallen man shows not only your ignorance of the nature of fallen man but your desire to elevate fallen man and perpetuate the unbiblical idea that man retains some measure of righteousness after the Fall.

Our relationship with Christ is often described as a marriage.

&nbsp;This is actually a great question and one that I would be happy to answer. I don't think you have a genuine desire to know but I'll enlighten you anway. The verses that deal with it being "God's Will" that everyone be saved and that none should perish are speaking of the permissive Will of God and His nature. God is benevolent and does not delight in the necessary eternal death of the unregenerate but, believe me, it is His decreed Will that it come to pass.

Yes, I do ask genuine questions, check out the Mary thread in the debate forum if you don't believe me. I like knowing why people believe things. Anyways, how can I argue with you if I don't know what you believe? Anyways, please post these passages.

If God is the 4 Os (omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omniescent), and why is it His will to send people to hell? Our explaination, is that God does not remove our free-will, and therefore people send themselves (in short). What would your reason be?

&nbsp;

&nbsp;If what is taught in the Bible, predestination? Lotar, either you don't read the Bible or you don't know what Calvary Chapel teaches. ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES teach a doctrine of predestination, yes, even Calvary Chapel churches. The difference is what that their view on it is, not whether it is a valid biblical theme.

Yes, all churches teach us about it, but most teach it as false doctrine, like Calvary Chapel.

&nbsp;Evangelism is one of the methods that God uses to enlighten and gather His flock. This flock isn't random in size. God knows who are His. A person's ability to convincingly deliver the Truth of the Gospel never has been, nor will it ever be, the reason someone comes to faith. That is a gift of God's grace which He bestows upon whomever is so pleases Him to do so. You could be the best preacher in the world but if you are talking to someone who has not been given ears to hear you are wasting your time. God uses His children to spread His Word. It's not an issue of someone being saved "no matter what." What did you think, that we "win souls for the Lord?" God gathers His flock. You don't gather it for Him. He just uses us to bring about His Will. I have yet to understand people incessant need to be autonomous. I think it stems from our fallen nature that desires to credit ourselves with "seeing the Truth and making the right decision" rather than "being enlightened to the Truth by the Divine intervention of God and being brought to the Truth because it pleased God to do so."

So evangelism is purely for the benifit of those who practice it? Of course God works through this person, we don't win souls, God does, but would the same results happen, if we refused to do this? If a person refuses to hear, it doesn't matter what you say, we all believe this. But if God already chose who would be saved and who wouldn't, then wouldn't they be saved no matter what? So we spread God's word just because of our need to bring glory to ourselves? Then why does the bible tell us to?

&nbsp;I ask again (though I've yet to get a straight answer to this), are you saved because you made the right decision. I didn't ask if salvation was available because of your decision. You have said that because of Jesus' sacrifice salvation was available to you, right? What I'm asking is, what is it that makes that sacrifice be manifested in you?

I will answer you again. I am saved because of what Christ did for me. But at some point I have to except this gift from him. Making this descition does not change what Christ did for me, nor does it glorify me in any way. Jesus paid for my sins, whether I accept His gift or not, it says nothing of me.

[Andrew]

Job......that's what i was wondering.....if just reciting a "sinner's prayer" is the way to salvation.....why isn't it in the bible?

actually it is in a sense.

Roms 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

of cse there is no "the sinner's prayer" in the Bible. But they are based on scriptures and are a convenient way for sinners to get saved. of cse, the person leading the sinner in the prayer will always have to emphasise that the sinner must mean from his heart what he says and understnd what he is saying before God. it's not just a magic formula said in vain repetition style.

[Lotar]

"actually it is in a sense.

Roms 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

of cse there is no "the sinner's prayer" in the Bible. But they are based on scriptures and are a convenient way for sinners to get saved. of cse, the person leading the sinner in the prayer will always have to emphasise that the sinner must mean from his heart what he says and understnd what he is saying before God. it's not just a magic formula said in vain repetition style."

good point

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 09:37 PM Lotar said this in Post #108 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=693918#post693918)

How is making a choice adding to his His will.

I didn't say you were adding to His Will.&nbsp; If anything your position purports that you add to, or complete, Christ's sacrifice.

I am adding nothing, too make a descision, is not a work.

See, now, this is the only way to make your argument work.&nbsp; To say that something isn't a work, that is.&nbsp; Let's do a quick test.&nbsp; You believe Christ died for all people, right?&nbsp; So, Christ dies and salvation is available, right?&nbsp; So, here's this thing, salvation, sitting out there because Christ died, right?&nbsp; Are you saved because Christ died?&nbsp; Look closely now.&nbsp; I didn't ask if you could be saved because Christ died.&nbsp; I'm asking, are you saved because He died?&nbsp; Was there anything else that had to happen for you to be saved?&nbsp; If so, then you added to His sacrifice and therefore His sacrifice was incomplete unless, of course, it is your belief that Christ's sacrifice was never intended to save the individual.&nbsp; So, I guess I should ask, "do you believe that the purpose of God sending His Son was so that you, specifically, would be saved or do you think that God wasn't so concerned with our specific salvation but rather just making it possible for us to be saved?"

I would not have made the right descision if it had not been for the Holy Spirit.

Wait, didn't God give everyone the grace to make the choice?&nbsp; What is it about you that makes you so much more compliant to the work of the Holy Spirit?&nbsp; The Holy Spirit didn't "make" you choose God right?&nbsp; Did the Holy Spirit give you more help than it gives someone that doesn't choose Christ?

But there was never any time at which I could not have rejected it. Just because God knows what will happen, doesn't mean He is exerting his control over us.

Lotar, this is getting a bit monotonous.&nbsp; Either it was the goal of the Holy Spirit to bring you to faith and that's why you have faith or the Holy Spirit&nbsp;goal was just to try to bring you to faith&nbsp;and it would have been perfectly okay with Him&nbsp;if you didn't&nbsp;choose Christ.&nbsp; You can't have it both ways.&nbsp; Either the work of God is intended for a specific purpose, your salvation,&nbsp;and He will make sure that comes to fruition, or, He leaves the choice up to you and that means that it is not God's greatest&nbsp;desire that you be saved because there's a possibility that you won't be.&nbsp; You're talking about God like He's some impotent or uncaring Creator.&nbsp; Everything God does He does for a reason.&nbsp; If it is His Will that a person be saved then that means that He will bring that about.&nbsp; What is it that you think God does?&nbsp; Do you think He's just sitting up there in Heaven saying, "Oooohh, I sure hope Lotar makes the right decision?"&nbsp; Come on!!&nbsp; We're talking about God here.&nbsp; He's not like us.&nbsp; He doesn't say, "It's My greatest desire for this to come to pass, and I sure hope it does."&nbsp; No.&nbsp; If it is God's greatest desire for something to come to pass then He makes sure it does.&nbsp; End of story.&nbsp; If something does not come to pass then it wasn't God's greatest desire for it to come to pass.&nbsp; He's not like us.&nbsp; He is sovereign.&nbsp; We are impotent.&nbsp; Nothing comes to pass just because it's our will that it come to pass.&nbsp; The things that we try to bring about are subject to so many things that we don't even have a hand in.&nbsp; That's not how God's decisions work.&nbsp; If He makes a decision for something to come to pass, it does.&nbsp; That's just who He is.&nbsp; He doesn't answer to us.&nbsp; He brings about His decreed Will.

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Romans 5:1-2).

I don't know what it is that&nbsp;you think this verse supports but there is NOTHING in Romans that supports what you're saying.&nbsp; You&nbsp;would do much better to pick a different book.&nbsp; Romans is,&nbsp;without a doubt, the&nbsp;book that&nbsp;is used most often to support my position.

The bible never says man as a whole is evil. It does say that we are predisposed towards evil.

Lotar, please, research the position that you are so adamantly arguing against.&nbsp; The reformed view is NOT that fallen man is as bad as he can get.&nbsp; The reformed view is that fallen man does not make any decision based on their faith in God.&nbsp; Do you think that they do?&nbsp; Do you think that heathens do anything because of their faith in God?&nbsp; If not, it's sin.&nbsp; Sorry if you don't like to hear that but it's true.

Romans 14:23
for&nbsp;WHATEVER is not from faith IS SIN.

Nothing that an unsaved person does is because they have faith.&nbsp; Nothing.&nbsp; Therefore, it's sin.

Haven't you ever met a non-christain who was moral.

What good do you think being "moral" is going to be?&nbsp; Will that non-Christian stand before God and say, "Hey, I was moral, even Lotar says I was?"&nbsp; If something is done for any reason other than a person's faith in God and His Law then it is sin.&nbsp; If a non-Christian saves my child from a burning building you can best bet that I'm going to be eternally thankful.&nbsp; But if the non-Christian did it for any reason other than faith in God, it was a sinful action.&nbsp; That is the Word of God.

No man is perfect, but we do make the right choices from time to time. We have the free will to do good or evil.

As a&nbsp;saved person you have the ability to make decisions that are motivated by your faith in God (right choices) and decisions that are motivated by your flesh (wrong&nbsp;choices).&nbsp; An unsaved person&nbsp;has no faith in God.&nbsp; Therefore, everything they do is motivated by their flesh (wrong choices).&nbsp;

BTW, I&nbsp; hope you mean Oh My Gosh, maybe you shouldn't use that abreviation, since it stands for taking the Lord's name in vain. ;)

Well, thanks for sharing that. :rolleyes:&nbsp;&nbsp;

I would really like to hear a verse that makes that distinction ;)

Well, it&nbsp;takes a bit of study and discernment which you might not be inclined to do but I'll give you verses that show a basic difference:

His decreed&nbsp;Will&nbsp;- This is God's eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His Will, whereby, for His own glory, He has foreordained whatsoever&nbsp;comes to pass (Westminster&nbsp;Shorter Catechism).&nbsp; This is the&nbsp;Will of God that is referred to in Eph. 1:11:

Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His Will

His perceptive Will - This is God's commands, His instruction given in Scripture, concerning how people should believe and behave.&nbsp; This is spoken&nbsp;of in the following:

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect Will of God.

Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the Will of the Lord is.

Colossians 1:9
For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His Will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

1 Thessalonians 4:3-6
For this is the Will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.

Man is not righteous, but he is capable of making righteous decitions. Haven't you ever seen people who weren't christians do the right thing?

It's not the action that makes it righteous or unrighteous&nbsp;Lotar.&nbsp; That's what I've been trying to tell you.&nbsp; It's the motive.&nbsp; If their motive is sinful then their action is not righteous.&nbsp;&nbsp;Everything an unsaved person does is done with an unrighteous (anything other than faith in God) motive and is therefore sinful.&nbsp; It sounds like you don't take issue with what I'm&nbsp;saying but with whether or not the Bible is right about&nbsp;every motive&nbsp;of an unsaved person.&nbsp;

Our relationship with Christ is often described as a marriage.

Sorry man but that's a&nbsp;pretty weak basis for making a&nbsp;point.&nbsp;

(cont.)

[Reformationist]

If God is the 4 Os (omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, omniescent), and why is it His will to send people to hell? Our explaination, is that God does not remove our free-will, and therefore people send themselves (in short). What would your reason be?

First off, God is NOT "omnibenevolent."&nbsp; There are many areas where God sovereignly brings something pass that is not motivated by goodwill for&nbsp;certain people.&nbsp; If God were "omnibenevolent" it would mean that everything He did to all people was motivated by goodwill for them.&nbsp; God sends some people to hell because their sins were not paid for by Christ.&nbsp; People send themselves to hell?&nbsp; People are not their own judge.&nbsp; God judges all people.&nbsp; Now people may merit hell based on them being God's enemy.&nbsp; But, no one sends themselves to hell.&nbsp; That is just said&nbsp;because everyone's afraid to believe that God could do something that they find as unjust.&nbsp; That's putting God in a tiny little box.&nbsp;&nbsp;God is the one who sends people to&nbsp;Heaven or to hell.&nbsp; Those to whom&nbsp;God grants eternal life&nbsp;in&nbsp;Heaven&nbsp;are given that&nbsp;because Christ's&nbsp;righteousness is credited to them.&nbsp; Nothing they did in their whole life would merit entrance into the Kingdom of God.&nbsp; The only thing that ever merits it, they didn't do.&nbsp; Those that&nbsp;God sends to hell are credited with their own works which, invariably, leaves them having to account for their own sinfulness.&nbsp; Therefore, they get eternal death in hell.

Yes, all churches teach us about it, but most teach it as false doctrine, like Calvary Chapel.

I must be typing to fast for you.&nbsp; All Christian churches teach A doctrine of predestination.&nbsp; Yes, even Calvary chapel.&nbsp;&nbsp;They have to have&nbsp;A doctrine on predestination.&nbsp; It's spoken of&nbsp;too clearly in the Bible to ignore it.&nbsp;&nbsp;I didn't say that Calvary chapel&nbsp;taught what I believe about predestination.&nbsp; But, be assured, they do have a doctrine on predestination.&nbsp; Go talk to your&nbsp;Pastor.&nbsp; He'll tell you.&nbsp; I also live in southern California.&nbsp; I have been to Calvary chapel churches.&nbsp; I have heard them preach on the subject.&nbsp; I think they are way off but they do have a doctrine on predestination.

So evangelism is purely for the benifit of those who practice it?

No.&nbsp; That's not what I said at all.

Of course God works through this person, we don't win souls, God does, but would the same results happen, if we refused to do this?

Whose "we," all Christians?&nbsp; It's kind of a non issue.&nbsp; There always have been and always will be Christians who spread the Word of God.&nbsp; Even in the midsts of severe persecution the Gospel was spread.&nbsp; It will be that way until the Last Day.&nbsp; If you're asking do I think God could still bring about His Will without us going around talking about Him then I'd say, "Of course."&nbsp; God is not limited by what we do or don't do.&nbsp; He is God.&nbsp; Just keep reminding yourself of that.

If a person refuses to hear, it doesn't matter what you say, we all believe this.

I understand that but the reason that they "refuse to hear" is becuase they are spiritually dead.&nbsp; It's not just some outward show of being prideful and obstinate.

But if God already chose who would be saved and who wouldn't, then wouldn't they be saved no matter what?

It's not an issue of "no matter what."&nbsp; "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17).&nbsp; This is the way God decided to bring it about.&nbsp; Could He have chosen other ways than His people going out and spreading His Word and being godly and sharing their faith?&nbsp; Yes, I'm sure, but He didn't.&nbsp; That's just the way He chose to do it.

So we spread God's word just because of our need to bring glory to ourselves? Then why does the bible tell us to?

Lotar, what are you talking about?&nbsp; I never said or implied this.

I will answer you again. I am saved because of what Christ did for me. But at some point I have to except this gift from him.

You see, you can't just say, "I am saved because of what Christ did for me."&nbsp; You clearly believe you have to add to that to make it be manifested.&nbsp; It's so sad.&nbsp; Christ is the reason you are saved.&nbsp; Period.&nbsp; End of story.&nbsp; You "accept" the gift and live as one of His disciples because He has brought you back to life and enabled you to do so.

Making this descition does not change what Christ did for me, nor does it glorify me in any way. Jesus paid for my sins, whether I accept His gift or not, it says nothing of me.

Does that even make sense to you?&nbsp; You're telling me that Jesus paid for the sins of those that go to hell?&nbsp; What are they in hell for?&nbsp; Don't say that it's because they made the sinful choice to go to hell.&nbsp; Remember, Jesus paid for that sin too.&nbsp; People go to hell because Jesus didn't pay for their sins.&nbsp; People go to Heaven because Jesus did pay for their sins.

I'd truly love to hear why some people go to hell with their sins paid for.

God bless

[Caedmon]

6th March 2003 at 01:24 AM Andrew said this in Post #109 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=694123#post694123)

it's not just a magic formula said in vain repetition style.

As opposed to the Rosary, right? ;)

[Caedmon]

There's two potential problems with "the sinner's prayer", imo.

1. An individual may not be considered "saved" unless she says it.
2. An individual may not feel that "the sinner's prayer" and it's affiliated concepts need to be repeated along the way, because she feels as though all of her sins have been forgiven, and there is no need to "get saved again" or ask forgiveness for sins, since they have "already been forgiven."

[Andrew]

As opposed to the Rosary, right?

i wasnt even thinking abt that but since you brought it up, yes, the rosary wld qualify. then again, why wld you say the rosary to get saved? ie not related concern

[Caedmon]

So you think that the Holy Rosary is "a magic formula said in vain repetition style"?

Actually, one billion people would disagree with you.

BTW, the way that Christian Forum Rules are set up, you may want to change your phrase from the Rosary is "a magic formula said in vain repetition style", to "[it is my belief that the Rosary is] a magic formula said in vain repetition style." ;)

[Reformationist]

Today at 11:12 AM humblejoe said this in Post #116 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=708493#post708493)

So you think that the Holy Rosary is "a magic formula said in vain repetition style"?

Actually, one billion people would disagree with you.

There are about that many Muslims but I don't think that's a basis for determining&nbsp;the Truth of their beliefs.&nbsp; For that matter, if I'm&nbsp;not wrong, the majority of the world thinks that&nbsp;Christianity is untrue so the fact that there are "a billion" Catholics doesn't mean that they're right.&nbsp; Just for the record, I would not classify the rosary as a vain repitition because I believe that Catholics, for the most part, believe what they pray and they ernestly mean it.&nbsp; I am just informing you that the practice of saying&nbsp;"the Catholic church is the biggest or the oldest&nbsp;so they must be right" only convinces Catholics.

God bless