Episcopalian?

[Job_38]

 Is this a legitimate sect of Christianity? I am asking because a good friend of mine is a member of this church.

[Auntie]

What makes you think they are not "legitimate"? Do they deny Christ?

[paulewog]

Whether or not the denomination is a "legitimate Christian" one is one thing, whether or not someone IN the denomination is another.

:)

[Job_38]

Today at 09:53 PM Auntie said this in Post #2 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684026#post684026)

What makes you think they are not "legitimate"? Do they deny Christ?




 If you do not know how to answer a question, please do not waste my time. I never indicated that I thought they were not.

 

 I can accept Christ and not follow Christian doctrine, its rather easy.



 

[Auntie]

Today at 04:13 PM Job_38 said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684044#post684044)

If you do not know how to answer a question, please do not waste my time. I never indicated that I thought they were not.






Do you always judge people so harshly, Job?

You seemed to be questioning the legitimacy of the Episcopalians. I misread your question, and that is enough for you to jump down my throat and accuse me of wasting your time? I'm sorry that you immediately think the worst of people. I will gladly put you on ignore, preventing me from reading your questions and never again to ask a question of you.

I assumed you knew something of the Episcopalians, something that had caused you to question their legitmacy. This is flat text, and it is sometimes difficult to express ourselves and communicate our thoughts to each other. But I am reading you loud and clear, and I have no need for someone so quick to anger and judgement.

[Athlon4all]

Honestly, I think that they are off in some doctrines (Predestinational salvation, they don't think the Bible is infallible), and they are in the same category as the Catholic church and the calvinistic Reformed church. I struggle some times with whether I can have fellowship with some of these churches which I feel are off in some key areas. They do not deny AFAIK the diety of Christ (just as the Catholics and Reformed church don't deny the diety of Christ) and that is a very important thing. I think that really it comes down to how the person is living. People must be doers of the Word, and really must be in a relationship with Christ (ie like in John 15, and I John 1)

[Didymus]

my husband was raised an epes. and still considers himself one although he has not attended that denomination in 24 years. He is defintely a Christian but had not recieved much bible training as a youth. I have a friend who is an epec. priest and to the best of my knowledge she is also a christian.

[Annabel Lee]

The Episcopalian Church and the Anglican Church are the same.
Of course they are a legitimate sect of Christianity
.
http://www.anglican.org/church/index.html

[jeffkrantz]

Well, just for the sake of continuing the discussion, I'm an Episcopalian, and I think I'm a legitimate Christian. I may disagree with Job on some certain points of doctrine, but that doesn't make me think Job is an illegitimate Christian.

Gotta say, it's pretty weird watching some of y'all talk about us as though we're a different species altogether.

God's Peace,

Jeff K

[Annabel Lee]

Hello Jeff.


Please don't let one very rude poster color your opinion of this site.
Some people, instead of doing a simple search or going directly to the church website, prefer to ask questions like this in order to spark a controversy.

They also enjoy examining every single sect of Christianity for doctinal differences with their own.
It's a hobby called, "Who is The True Christian?". When they are called on it they, of course, feign innocence.

Welcome to Christian Forums. :)

[Auntie]

Today at 07:08 PM jeffkrantz said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684280#post684280)


Gotta say, it's pretty weird watching some of y'all talk about us as though we're a different species altogether.

God's Peace,

Jeff K




Welcome to CF, Jeff.:wave:

I hope you will hang around and post, coz there are some good people here. Some of my ancestors were Episcopalian, and are buried in St. Johns Episcopal Churchyard at Elizabeth, New Jersey. I have a big soft spot in my heart for Episcopalians.:)

[Job_38]

Man you people are insane. You guys would make good Mormons.

[Job_38]

Do you always judge people so harshly, Job?

No, I am being rather mild right now.



Hello Jeff.


Please don't let one very rude poster color your opinion of this site.
Some people, instead of doing a simple search or going directly to the church website, prefer to ask questions like this in order to spark a controversy.

They also enjoy examining every single sect of Christianity for doctinal differences with their own.
It's a hobby called, "Who is The True Christian?". When they are called on it they, of course, feign innocence.

Welcome to Christian Forums.

No, I want to see if a beloved friend of mine is going to a Church that is teaching practical Christian doctrine. I never mentioned anything of one being saved or not.

sorry if my believing that one should have an accurate view of God and truly knowing Him offends you.

[paulewog]

on a little note, you can say you accept "Christ" but whether or not it's really Christ or some person that you made up and call Christ is a different story.

For example - I do not believe the Mormons believe in the same Jesus that I believe in. Well I know they don't, from what I understand they think Satan is Jesus' brother and that Jesus was created.

:)

Maybe an episcopalian could say what they believe about Christ :D hehe, that would answer a lot of questions!

(by the way, the test that John gave in 1st John about bad doctrines is to see if they believe in Jesus (the one in the Bible :P))

[seebs]

Well, here's a starting point: If they accept the Nicene Creed, then, for purposes of this site, they're a "legitimate sect of Christianity".

Oh, you want God's opinion? I believe it's mostly "Hey, dude, there's something in your eye."

It's not your job to know or care whether or not someone else is a "legitimate" Christian; it's your job to know whether *you're* doing your best.

[Caedmon]

Today at 12:27 AM Job_38 said this in Post #12 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684732#post684732)

Man you people are insane.

No... actually, most of us are tired of seeing people getting kicked to the curb by other people, because they attend a church that believes differently and are thus labeled as not a "true" Christian.

You guys would make good Mormons.

No, I don't think so... they don't honor Mary. I wouldn't fit in.

Besides, I don't consider myself to be a god in embryo.

[seebs]

Today at 12:30 AM Job_38 said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684737#post684737)
sorry if my believing that one should have an accurate view of God and truly knowing Him offends you.


The only offensive part is the idea that us fallible humans can judge with accuracy whose view of God is the accurate one.

[PresbyGal]

Yesterday at 05:08 PM jeffkrantz said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684280#post684280)

Well, just for the sake of continuing the discussion, I'm an Episcopalian, and I think I'm a legitimate Christian. I may disagree with Job on some certain points of doctrine, but that doesn't make me think Job is an illegitimate Christian.

Gotta say, it's pretty weird watching some of y'all talk about us as though we're a different species altogether.

God's Peace,

Jeff K



 

Hi Jeff :wave:  I have not read all the way thru this thread but your post pop out at me and thank God it did. I was begining to think I had arrived at the wrong board. :scratch: funny, I can't imagine coming close to thinking that Episcopalian wasn't legit. I have consider switching over to them as a matter of fact. I'm a Presbyterain :)

I'd love to ask you a few questions about being Episcopalian.

Peace,

Janine




 

[PresbyGal]

Job wrote:  
No, I want to see if a beloved friend of mine is going to a Church that is teaching practical Christian doctrine. I never mentioned anything of one being saved or not.

sorry if my believing that one should have an accurate view of God and truly knowing Him offends you. [/B]

 
 Job,
Oh dear, I can see some education is in order here...you need to go to your local College and sign up for a class in history on religion or read an actual book on the reformation..ooo now theres an idea..read a book.

The Ep church has a better and more solid view of God then you could probably handle. Last word..grow up and read, then come back and have an adult conversation. :rolleyes:

Peace,

Janine

 

[MizDoulos]

A note to everyone:

Let's not start flaming each other but step back and take a breather. Use your private message option to contact each other to resolve personal conflicts.

Thank you.

[Job_38]

Today at 03:46 PM PresbyGal said this in Post #19 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685072#post685072)

 
 Job,
Oh dear, I can see some education is in order here...you need to go to your local College and sign up for a class in history on religion or read an actual book on the reformation..ooo now theres an idea..read a book.

The Ep church has a better and more solid view of God then you could probably handle. Last word..grow up and read, then come back and have an adult conversation. :rolleyes:

Peace,

Janine

 



Thats funny, seeing that you do not even know me.

 

 One last word and I'm out: What the heck is wrong with you people? I came here and posted a legitmate question and I get things crammed down my throat. I know nothing about this church. Now assume I am a very emotional person. How would I react against the things said? I would probaly be pushed farther away from wanting to learn of their doctrine.

 

 Thanks. You guys have really shown how much you care to assist people in learning.

[seebs]

Er. I guess what's wrong here is that you seem to think that anyone but God knows for sure which denominations are "legitimate". The Episcopalian church has been around for a long time, and seems to produce a fair number of Christians. Good enough for me.

[Job_38]

Ok. I just want to know their doctrine and such. Thats the way I can tell if their CHURCH(not the people.) is one that teaches truth.

[Annabel Lee]

Job,
Here are some Anglican/Episcopalian websites I have bookmarked.


The outline of the Faith:
http://www.ecusa.anglican.org/bcp/outline.html#creeds



http://www.episcopalchurch.org/welcome/

http://anglicansonline.org/basics/index.html

http://www.anglican.org/church/index.html

[Job_38]

Danke

[sklippstein]

Today at 01:27 AM Job_38 said this in Post #12 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=684732#post684732)

Man you people are insane. You guys would make good Mormons.




sheesh!

[Job_38]

Don't take it personally. The reason I said that was the way you guys pounced on me when I asked whether this church taught real doctrine.

[sklippstein]

Thanks Job......and i do understand about plp jumping all over ya....we all need to just chill a bit and not take things so personally. God bless u.

[Wasp]

Cut Job some slack, he asked a legitimate question.
I agree that the Episcopalian church has major theological fallacies, such as the catholic church. However, when it all boils down, what matters is whether or not the person is a new creation, given life through faith in Christ.
Out of curiosity, how similar is the Episcopalian church to Catholicism?

[Caedmon]

Edit: I'm taking Thumper's advice.

[Annabel Lee]

From the Book of Common Prayer

Q. What are we by nature?
A. We are part of God's creation, made in the image of God.

Q. What does it mean to be created in the image of God?
A. It means that we are free to make choices: to love, to create, to reason, and to live in harmony with creation and with God.

Q. Why then do we live apart from God and out of harmony with creation?
A. From the beginning, human beings have misused their freedom and made wrong choices.

Q. Why do we not use our freedom as we should?
A. Because we rebel against God, and we put ourselves in the place of God.

Q. What help is there for us?
A. Our help is in God.

Q. How did God first help us?
A. God first helped us by revealing himself and his will, through nature and history, through many seers and saints, and especially the prophets of Israel.

God the Father

Q. What do we learn about God as creator from the revelation to Israel?
A. We learn that there is one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

Q. What does this mean?
A. This means that the universe is good, that it is the work of a single loving God who creates, sustains, and directs it.

Q. What does this mean about our place in the universe?
A. It means that the world belongs to its creator; and that we are called to enjoy it and to care for it in accordance with God's purposes.

Q. What does this mean about human life?
A. It means that all people are worthy of respect and honor, because all are created in the image of God, and all can respond to the love of God.

Q. How was this revelation handed down to us?
A. This revelation was handed down to us through a community created by a covenant with God.

The Old Covenant

Q. What is meant by a covenant with God?
A. A covenant is a relationship initiated by God, to which a body of people responds in faith.

Q. What is the Old Covenant?
A. The Old Covenant is the one given by God to the Hebrew people.

Q. What did God promise them?
A. God promised that they would be his people to bring all the nations of the world to him.

Q. What response did God require from the chosen people?
A. God required the chosen people to be faithful; to love justice, to do mercy, and to walk humbly with their God.

Q. Where is this Old Covenant to be found?
A. The covenant with the Hebrew people is to be found in the books which we call the Old Testament.

Q. Where in the Old Testament is God's will for us shown most clearly?
A. God's will for us is shown most clearly in the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments

Q. What are the Ten Commandments?
A. The Ten Commandments are the laws given to Moses and the people of Israel.

Q. What do we learn from these commandments?
A. We learn two things: our duty to God, and our duty to our neighbors.

Q. What is our duty to God?
A. Our duty is to believe and trust in God;

I To love and obey God and to bring others to know him;
II To put nothing in the place of God;
III To show God respect in thought, word, and deed;
IV And to set aside regular times for worship, prayer, and the study of God's ways.
Q. What is our duty to our neighbors?
A. Our duty to our neighbors is to love them as ourselves, and to do to other people as we wish them to do to us;

V To love, honor, and help our parents and family; to honor those in authority, and to meet their just demands;
VI To show respect for the life God has given us; to work and pray for peace; to bear no malice, prejudice, or hatred in our hearts; and to be kind to all the creatures of God;
VII To use our bodily desires as God intended;
VIII To be honest and fair in our dealings; to seek justice, freedom, and the necessities of life for all people; and to use our talents and possessions as ones who must answer for them to God;
IX To speak the truth, and not to mislead others by our silence;
X To resist temptations to envy, greed, and jealousy; to rejoice in other people's gifts and graces; and to do our duty for the love of God, who has called us into fellowship with him.
Q. What is the purpose of the Ten Commandments?
A. The Ten Commandments were given to define our relationship with God and our neighbors.

Q. Since we do not fully obey them, are they useful at all?
A. Since we do not fully obey them, we see more clearly our sin and our need for redemption.

Sin and Redemption

Q. What is sin?
A. Sin is the seeking of our own will instead of the will of God, thus distorting our relationship with God, with other people, and with all creation.

Q. How does sin have power over us?
A. Sin has power over us because we lose our liberty when our relationship with God is distorted.

Q. What is redemption?
A. Redemption is the act of God which sets us free from the power of evil, sin, and death.

Q. How did God prepare us for redemption?
A. God sent the prophets to call us back to himself, to show us our need for redemption, and to announce the coming of the Messiah.

Q. What is meant by the Messiah?
A. The Messiah is one sent by God to free us from the power of sin, so that with the help of God we may live in harmony with God, within ourselves, with our neighbors, and with all creation.

Q. Who do we believe is the Messiah?
A. The Messiah, or Christ, is Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son of God.

God the Son

Q. What do we mean when we say that Jesus is the only Son of God?
A. We mean that Jesus is the only perfect image of the Father, and shows us the nature of God.

Q. What is the nature of God revealed in Jesus?
A. God is love.

Q. What do we mean when we say that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and became incarnate from the Virgin Mary?
A. We mean that by God's own act, his divine Son received our human nature from the Virgin Mary, his mother.

Q. Why did he take our human nature?
A. The divine Son became human, so that in him human beings might be adopted as children of God, and be made heirs of God's kingdom.

Q. What is the great importance of Jesus' suffering and death?
A. By his obedience, even to suffering and death, Jesus made the offering which we could not make; in him we are freed from the power of sin and reconciled to God.

Q. What is the significance of Jesus' resurrection?
A. By his resurrection, Jesus overcame death and opened for us the way of eternal life.

Q. What do we mean when we say that he descended to the dead?
A. We mean that he went to the departed and offered them also the benefits of redemption.

Q. What do we mean when we say that he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father?
A. We mean that Jesus took our human nature into heaven where he now reigns with the Father and intercedes for us.

Q. How can we share in his victory over sin, suffering, and death?
A. We share in his victory when we are baptized into the New Covenant and become living members of Christ.

[Annabel Lee]

(continued)
The Holy Spirit

Q. What is the Holy Spirit?
A. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity, God at work in the world and in the Church even now.

Q. How is the Holy Spirit revealed in the Old Covenant?
A. The Holy Spirit is revealed in the Old Covenant as the giver of life, the One who spoke through the prophets.

Q. How is the Holy Spirit revealed in the New Covenant?
A. The Holy Spirit is revealed as the Lord who leads us into all truth and enables us to grow in the likeness of Christ.

Q. How do we recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives?
A. We recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and are brought into love and harmony with God, with ourselves, with our neighbors, and with all creation.

Q. How do we recognize the truths taught by the Holy Spirit?
A. We recognize truths to be taught by the Holy Spirit when they are in accord with the Scriptures.

The Holy Scriptures

Q. What are the Holy Scriptures?
A. The Holy Scriptures, commonly called the Bible, are the books of the Old and New Testaments; other books, called the Apocrypha, are often included in the Bible.

Q. What is the Old Testament?
A. The Old Testament consists of books written by the people of the Old Covenant, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to show God at work in nature and history.

Q. What is the New Testament?
A. The New Testament consists of books written by the people of the New Covenant, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to set forth the life and teachings of Jesus and to proclaim the Good News of the Kingdom for all people.

Q. What is the Apocrypha?
A. The Apocrypha is a collection of additional books written by people of the Old Covenant, and used in the Christian Church.

Q. Why do we call the Holy Scriptures the Word of God?
A. We call them the Word of God because God inspired their human authors and because God still speaks to us through the Bible.

Q. How do we understand the meaning of the Bible?
A. We understand the meaning of the Bible by the help of the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in the true interpretation of the Scriptures.

The Church

Q. What is the Church?
A. The Church is the community of the New Covenant.

Q. How is the Church described in the Bible?
A. The Church is described as the Body of which Jesus Christ is the Head and of which all baptized persons are members. It is called the People of God, the New Israel, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and the pillar and ground of truth.

Q. How is the Church described in the creeds?
A. The Church is described as one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Q. Why is the Church described as one?
A. The Church is one, because it is one Body, under one Head, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Q. Why is the Church described as holy?
A. The Church is holy, because the Holy Spirit dwells in it, consecrates its members, and guides them to do God's work.

Q. Why is the Church described as catholic?
A. The Church is catholic, because it proclaims the whole Faith to all people, to the end of time.

Q. Why is the Church described as apostolic?
A. The Church is apostolic, because it continues in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles and is sent to carry out Christ's mission to all people.

Q. What is the mission of the Church?
A. The mission of the Church is to restore all people to unity with God and each other in Christ.

Q. How does the Church pursue its mission?
A. The Church pursues its mission as it prays and worships, proclaims the Gospel, and promotes justice, peace, and love.

Q. Through whom does the Church carry out its mission?
A. The church carries out its mission through the ministry of all its members.

The Ministry

Q. Who are the ministers of the Church?
A. The ministers of the Church are lay persons, bishops, priests, and deacons.

Q. What is the ministry of the laity?
A. The ministry of lay persons is to represent Christ and his Church; to bear witness to him wherever they may be; and, according to the gifts given them, to carry on Christ's work of reconciliation in the world; and to take their place in the life, worship, and governance of the Church.

Q. What is the ministry of a bishop?
A. The ministry of a bishop is to represent Christ and his Church, particularly as apostle, chief priest, and pastor of a diocese; to guard the faith, unity, and discipline of the whole Church; to proclaim the Word of God; to act in Christ's name for the reconciliation of the world and the building up of the Church; and to ordain others to continue Christ's ministry.

Q. What is the ministry of a priest or presbyter?
A. The ministry of a priest is to represent Christ and his Church, particularly as pastor to the people; to share with the bishop in the overseeing of the Church; to proclaim the Gospel; to administer the sacraments; and to bless and declare pardon in the name of God.

Q. What is the ministry of a deacon?
A. The ministry of a deacon is to represent Christ and his Church, particularly as a servant of those in need; and to assist bishops and priests in the proclamation of the Gospel and the administration of the sacraments.

Q. What is the duty of all Christians?
A. The duty of all Christians is to follow Christ; to come together week by week for corporate worship; and to work, pray, and give for the spread of the kingdom of God.

Prayer and Worship

Q. What is prayer?
A. Prayer is responding to God, by thought and by deeds, with or without words.

Q. What is Christian Prayer?
A. Christian prayer is response of God the Father, through Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Q. What prayer did Christ teach us?
A. Our Lord gave us the example of prayer known as the Lord's Prayer.

Q. What are the principle kinds of prayer?
A. The principle kinds of prayer are adoration, praise, thanksgiving, penitence, oblation, intercession, and petition.

Q. What is adoration?
A. Adoration is the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, asking nothing but to enjoy God's presence.

Q. Why do we praise God?
A. We praise God, not to obtain anything, but because God's Being draws praise from us.

Q. For what do we offer thanksgiving?
A. Thanksgiving is offered to God for all the blessings of this life, for our redemption, and for whatever draws us closer to God.

Q. What is penitence?
A. In penitence, we confess our sins and make restitution where possible, with the intention to amend our lives.

Q. What is prayer of oblation?
A. Oblation is an offering of ourselves, our lives and labors, in union with Christ, for the purposes of God.

Q. What are intercession and petition?
A. Intercession brings before God the needs of others; in petition, we present our own needs, that God's will may be done.

Q. What is corporate worship?
A. In corporate worship, we unite ourselves with others to acknowledge the holiness of God, to hear God's Word, to offer prayer, and to celebrate the sacraments.

The Sacraments

Q. What are the sacraments?
A. The sacraments are outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace, given by Christ as sure and certain means by which we receive that grace.

Q. What is grace?
A. Grace is God's favor toward us, unearned and undeserved; by grace God forgives our sins, enlightens our minds, stirs our hearts, and strengthens our wills.

Q. What are the two great sacraments of the Gospel?
A. The two great sacraments given by Christ to his Church are Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist.

Holy Baptism

Q. What is Holy Baptism?
A. Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God.

Q. What is the outward and visible sign in Baptism?
A. The outward and visible sign in Baptism is water, in which the person is baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace in Baptism?
A. The inward and spiritual grace in Baptism is union with Christ in his death and resurrection, birth into God's family the Church, forgiveness of sins, and new life in the Holy Spirit.

Q. What is required of us at Baptism?
A. It is required that we renounce Satan, repent of our sins, and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Q. Why then are infants baptized?
A. Infants are baptized so that they can share citizenship in the Covenant, membership in Christ, and redemption by God.

Q. How are the promises for infants made and carried out?
A. Promises are made for them by their parents and sponsors, who guarantee that the infants will be brought up within the Church, to know Christ and be able to follow him.




The Holy Eucharist

Q. What is the Holy Eucharist?
A. The Holy Eucharist is the sacrament commanded by Christ for the continual remembrance of his life, death, and resurrection, until his coming again.

Q. Why is the Eucharist called a sacrifice?
A. Because the Eucharist, the Church's sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, is the way by which the sacrifice of Christ is made present, and in which he unites us to his one offering of himself.

Q. By what other names is this service known?
A. The Holy Eucharist is called the Lord's Supper, and Holy Communion; it is also known as the Divine Liturgy, the Mass, and the Great Offering.

Q. What is the outward and visible sign in the Eucharist?
A. The outward and visible sign in the Eucharist is bread and wine, given and received according to Christ's command.

Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace given in the Eucharist?
A. The inward and spiritual grace in the Holy Communion is the Body and Blood of Christ given to his people, and received by faith.

Q. What are the benefits which we receive in the Lord's Supper?
A. The benefits we receive are the forgiveness of our sins, the strengthening of our union with Christ and one another, and the foretaste of the heavenly banquet which is our nourishment in eternal life.

Q. What is required of us when we come to the Eucharist?
A. It is required that we should examine our lives, repent of our sins, and be in love and charity with all people.

[seebs]

Today at 12:28 PM Job_38 said this in Post #23 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685241#post685241)

Ok. I just want to know their doctrine and such. Thats the way I can tell if their CHURCH(not the people.) is one that teaches truth.


Wouldn't a casual web search have yielded this answer, and avoided making a public claim that you doubt the authenticity of their doctrine? The question implies the claim.

[Job_38]

I never made the doubt. You assumed. I tried, but came up with alot of stuff.

[martinluther2003]

maybe job will share what sect of christianity he belongs to so we can shoot it full of theological holes !!

[Job_38]

Excuse me?

[martinluther2003]

yea, which sect do you belong to?

[seebs]

Today at 02:25 PM Job_38 said this in Post #34 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685409#post685409)

I never made the doubt. You assumed. I tried, but came up with alot of stuff.


If you didn't doubt it, why post the question?

Anyway, yes, you come up with a lot of stuff. The idea is that you then read that stuff, because there's a lot of fine points of doctrine to most denominations. It takes time and effort to judge people; this is perhaps another reason not to do it. :)

[Job_38]

Because I wanted to know.

Um, I don't belong to a sect. Here are the doctrines my church follows however:

http://www.ebible.org/bible/ASV/

[Annabel Lee]

(and the rest)

Other Sacramental Rites

Q. What other sacramental rites evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
A. Other sacramental rites which evolved in the Church include confirmation, ordination, holy matrimony, reconciliation of a penitent, and unction.

Q. How do they differ from the two sacraments of the Gospel?
A. Although they are means of grace, they are not necessary for all persons in the same way that Baptism and the Eucharist are.

Q. What is Confirmation?
A. Confirmation is the rite in which we express a mature commitment to Christ, and receive strength from the Holy Spirit through prayer and the laying on of hands by a bishop.

Q. What is required of those to be confirmed?
A. It is required of those to be confirmed that they have been baptized, are sufficiently instructed in the Christian Faith, are penitent for their sins, and are ready to affirm their confession of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

Q. What is Ordination?
A. Ordination is the rite in which God gives authority and the grace of the Holy Spirit to those being made bishops, priests, and deacons, through prayer and the laying on of hands by bishops.

Q. What is Holy Matrimony?
A. Holy Matrimony is Christian marriage, in which the woman and man enter into a life-long union, make their vows before God and the Church, and receive the grace and blessing of God to help them fulfill their vows.

Q. What is Reconciliation of a Penitent?
A. Reconciliation of a Penitent, or Penance, is the rite in which those who repent of their sins may confess them to God in the presence of a priest, and receive the assurance of pardon and the grace of absolution.

Q. What is Unction of the Sick?
A. Unction is the rite of anointing the sick with oil, or the laying on of hands, by which God's grace is given for the healing of spirit, mind, and body.

Q. Is God's activity limited to these rites?
A. God does not limit himself to these rites; they are patterns of countless ways by which God uses material things to reach out to us.

Q. How are the sacraments related to our Christian hope?
A. Sacraments sustain our present hope and anticipate its future fulfillment.

The Christian Hope

Q. What is the Christian hope?
A. The Christian hope is to live with confidence in newness and fullness of life, and to await the coming of Christ in glory, and the completion of God's purpose for the world.

Q. What do we mean by the coming of Christ in glory?
A. By the coming of Christ in glory, we mean that Christ will come, not in weakness but in power, and will make all things new.

Q. What do we mean by heaven and hell?
A. By heaven, we mean eternal life in our enjoyment of God; by hell, we mean eternal death in our rejection of God.

Q. Why do we pray for the dead?
A. We pray for them, because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is.

Q. What do we mean by the last judgment?
A. We believe that Christ will come in glory and judge the living and the dead.

Q. What do we mean by the resurrection of the body?
A. We mean that God will raise us from death in the fullness of our being, that we may live with Christ in the communion of the saints.

Q. What is the communion of saints?
A. The communion of saints is the whole family of God, the living and the dead, those whom we love and those whom we hurt, bound together in Christ by sacrament, prayer, and praise.

Q. What do we mean by everlasting life?
A. By everlasting life, we mean a new existence, in which we are united with all the people of God, in the joy of fully knowing and loving God and each other.

Q. What, then, is our assurance as Christians?
A. Our assurance as Christians is that nothing, not even death, shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen.

Text from The Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church

[Caedmon]

Today at 02:31 PM Job_38 said this in Post #39 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685426#post685426)

Here are the doctrines my church follows however:

http://www.ebible.org/bible/ASV/

Could you give us the link from that page that gives your doctrines? I couldn't find it.

[Job_38]

No, you did.

Main Entry: doc·trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
Date: 14th century
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations

[Caedmon]

Today at 06:56 PM Job_38 said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=685937#post685937)

No, you did.

Main Entry: doc·trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
Date: 14th century
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA c : a principle of law established through past decisions d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations

Huh? :confused: All I saw at that site was books of the Bible.

Doctrines are based on interpretation, and there were no interpretations there. It only gave primary sources.

[seebs]

It's amazing how many total disagreements you can find among people who insist that they are only repeating what God said, not interpreting it at all.

[Job_38]

Its funny, how you guys are exactly what you "fight against"

[Job_38]

Seeing that this lost his purpse, could the admin close it?

Annabel posted some good stuff, thanks a bunch.

[Caedmon]

Today at 07:30 PM Job_38 said this in Post #45 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686012#post686012)

Its funny, how you guys are exactly what you "fight against"

What is it that we "fight against"? I'd like to know what you are claiming we are.

[Job_38]

Say "hypocryte" out loud.

[sklippstein]

y'all can't we learn about one another's faith w/o prescuting each other in the process?

[Caedmon]

Today at 07:50 PM Job_38 said this in Post #48 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686059#post686059)

Say "hypocryte" out loud.

Why are you calling me a hypocrite? :confused:

[Job_38]

No. But you are acting like one right now. You accuse me of "Bashing" another faith, and then you attempt to. But lets forget all about that and discuss.


1) Please point out where I showed any attempts to discredit the Episcopalian church. No comments, just the stuff.

[Caedmon]

Today at 10:30 PM Job_38 said this in Post #51 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686386#post686386)

You accuse me of "Bashing" another faith, and then you attempt to.

First, show me where I accused you of bashing another faith.
Second, show me where I attempted to bash another faith.

[seebs]

I think the original post came across (perhaps unintentionally) as implying that the Episcopalians were presumptively discredited, and needed to have some kind of special support shown before we'd accord them the respect we'd normally accord any other Christian group.

[Caedmon]

Today at 10:41 PM seebs said this in Post #53 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686410#post686410)

I think the original post came across (perhaps unintentionally) as implying that the Episcopalians were presumptively discredited, and needed to have some kind of special support shown before we'd accord them the respect we'd normally accord any other Christian group.

Yes, that was my feeling as well. Perhaps it was unintentional. If it was, and if I have appeared overbearing, I apologize.

[jeffkrantz]

My apologies for having been away for a few days.  It's been a pretty wild period.

I'd be happy to share with y'all what I think are the good things about the Episcopal church, and, maybe even some of the things that I don't like about it. 

I see that most of our catechism has already been posted, which is cool, but I don't think it really captures who we are.  There's so much to say that I hardly know where to start, so some specific kinds of questions might help.  (I have another hellish week coming up, so I can't promise to answer them all within a day, though.)

One question I recall was about our relationship to Roman Catholicism.  We are similar in a lot of ways to the RC church, but different in some meaningful ways, too.  We have the same orders of ministers (laity, bishops, priests, and deacons) and the same seven sacraments.  Our Eucharistic theology is pretty much the same, but our ecclesiologies are very different.

I like to say (and I hope I'm not mis-stating things) that the biggest difference between our two denominations is that in the RC church power begins with one person and "trickles down" while in the Episcopal church, power begins with the laity and is gradually conferred to the leadership.  If you want to be a priest, a bishop can't just decide to do it, two different committees with lots of lay people on them have to approve of it.  If you're elected a bishop, it isn't a choice made by the Pope, but you are elected by the lay people and the clergy of the diocese that you may serve.  Because our church had to re-organize itself after the American Revolution (we were all Anglicans before, but they were pretty angry at us!) we became much more democratic, in keeping with the spirit of this country.

While I don't have too much confidence in most political processes, personally, I still find that this way of starting with the laity usually means we're a lot more responsive to the work of the Spirit than a "top-down" kind of power structure.

On the down side of all this is the "clericalism" that still afflicts us.  It's worse in some parts of the country, and in some parishes, but for the most part, people still think of clergy as "higher" callings than other callings.  I think that's horribly wrong, and the whole "Father this" and "Mother that" (yes, we ordain women as priests) is a big mistake.  Ordination, in my opinion, specializes, narrows a person's ministry, doesn't make it higher.  Just different.  We all have gifts for ministry.  Setting clergy up as higher than others is a recipe for stagnation.

Well, there are a couple of things to begin with.  I'm open to other questions, and I'll get to 'em as fast as I can!

 

Jeff K

[sklippstein]

Welcome back Jeff and ty for setting the record straight!

[PresbyGal]

Today at 04:23 AM jeffkrantz said this in Post #55 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686794#post686794) 


On the down side of all this is the "clericalism" that still afflicts us.  It's worse in some parts of the country, and in some parishes, but for the most part, people still think of clergy as "higher" callings than other callings.  I think that's horribly wrong, and the whole "Father this" and "Mother that" (yes, we ordain women as priests) is a big mistake.  Ordination, in my opinion, specializes, narrows a person's ministry, doesn't make it higher.  Just different.  We all have gifts for ministry.  Setting clergy up as higher than others is a recipe for stagnation. 



Jeff K




Hi Jeff, You came along at the perfect time :) I found this part of your post interesting. I'm a Presbyterain so we too start with laity as far as making decisions. I only want to disagree on a minor point here Jeff. I feel the clergy should be at a higher level..and the reason for that is education. Our clergy, Presbyterain AND EP spend years in seminary. I would rather have that then Jimbob with six months of training and bingo his a pastor..no no no. We look to our clergy for help in scripture interpetation and doctrine. In other words, the uneducated breeds intolerance and BIG misconceptions about scripture and doctrine in the mainline sects.

I don't believe ordination limits ones ministry at all. It fulfills that persons calling and is supposed to be entered into with respect and a place of honor. We all have gifts we bring to our church that also holds honor but someones got to be incharge that knows what they are talking about.  It's funny because my church feels the same way you do..and this is a point I disagree with. :) Hmm I either need to convert to Catholicism or find a local EP church ;)

Thanks Jeff for your post. I may check out that website posted by Ann on here.

Peace,

Janine

[Athlon4all]

I think the original post came across (perhaps unintentionally) as implying that the Episcopalians were presumptively discredited, Yes it did kind of sound like that but I don't think Job meant it to be that way.

[Job_38]

I see how it could. Alot of times, we (people) love to hide what we do in a nice little cloak.

[Wasp]

I'm not trying to start an argument, and I apologize if I missed it in the earlier postings, but what is the Episcopalian view of Mary? Do you consider her a deity like Catholics do, or do you simply recognize her as Godly woman who was obedient?

[jeffkrantz]

Today at 03:21 AM Wasp said this in Post #60 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688664#post688664)

I'm not trying to start an argument, and I apologize if I missed it in the earlier postings, but what is the Episcopalian view of Mary? Do you consider her a deity like Catholics do, or do you simply recognize her as Godly woman who was obedient?



I guess I'd say that most Episcopalians go with your latter description, though I'd probably take out the "simply."  Her obedience to me is exemplary.  She is certainly not divine in any sense, but in many ways she is the perfect model of the follower of Christ, one who is so obedient that Christ can be "born" in him or her.

I'd like to suggest too, that Roman Catholics (you'll notice that I always use "Roman" to designate that particular branch of catholic faith, as I think I'm "catholic" too, just not "Roman Catholic"...)  may in private devotions get the place of Mary confused, she is NOT officially taught to be divine in any sense.  I too am troubled when the God-bearer (Theotokos, not a divine title) starts being called the "Co-Redemptrix," but that's not an official teaching, and in fact it's one the Vatican said a definitive "no" to. 

There are plenty of things to pick on in any denomination, if we want to tear them down (which I'd rather not do) but if you want to criticize, it's a good idea to be sure the criticism's true before you start...

Jeff K.

[Caedmon]

Yesterday at 09:21 PM Wasp said this in Post #60 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688664#post688664)

Do you consider her a deity like Catholics do, or do you simply recognize her as Godly woman who was obedient?

Welcome to the Forums, Wasp. I used to be a Southern Baptist too. ;)

About your post...

Catholics do not consider Mary to be a deity. Mary is not a goddess.

[Terri]

1st March 2003 at 03:29 PM Job_38 said this in Post #1 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683993#post683993)

 Is this a legitimate sect of Christianity? I am asking because a good friend of mine is a member of this church.





:wave: Job_38

I'm sorry you were attacked for asking a question. :)

I don't know if some people will ever learn to always assume the best of others.  When I read you question I didn't assume you were trying to be ugly, just that you wanted some information directly from people that knew about the Episcopalian church.

Many people on this board do not realize that it is their assuming the worst of people and then attacking them because of that assumption that makes this board an unkind place.

I don't know anything about that church either--glad I didn't ask.   

[jeffkrantz]

Yesterday at 10:59 PM Terri said this in Post #63 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=690463#post690463)

:wave: Job_38 

When I read you question I didn't assume you were trying to be ugly, just that you wanted some information directly from people that knew about the Episcopalian church.

 



I can surely understand why other people heard Job's question differently.  After all, who better to ask about Episcopalians than Episcopalians, but no, Job didn't do that.  Instead he asked people who don't know much about being an Episcopalian if the Episcopal church was a legitimate one.  "Legitimate?"  Pleeeeeeeeze.

If people read that as being prone to pass judgement, perhaps Job would do well to learn to ask in ways that are respectful of traditions about which he doesn't yet know anything.

JK

[Wasp]

Today at 08:04 AM jeffkrantz said this in Post #61 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=689402#post689402)

I guess I'd say that most Episcopalians go with your latter description, though I'd probably take out the "simply."  Her obedience to me is exemplary.  She is certainly not divine in any sense, but in many ways she is the perfect model of the follower of Christ, one who is so obedient that Christ can be "born" in him or her.

There are plenty of things to pick on in any denomination, if we want to tear them down (which I'd rather not do) but if you want to criticize, it's a good idea to be sure the criticism's true before you start...

Jeff K.



Hey Jeff,

Thanx for the info.  Sorry for the hasty generalization of Mary's deity, but from the unhealthy amount of attention that Roman Catholics I know give to Mary, it is almost worshipful.  (i.e. prayers, statues, etc.)

You are correct that there are things with each denomination that may seem foreign to others, however, I do not believe that trying to help other believers by pointing out faults in their church is destructive.  I believe that when a church has major faults, the individual should serioulsy consider the effect that it is having on their personal christian walk.  I also believe that the first generation church in the new testament is a good mold to use.

No man (or woman) is a perfect model of the follower of Christ, because all people sin and fall at times.  Therefore the only person we should look to is Christ.  However, if I were looking to another christian for inspiration, I'd have to go with Paul.  ;)

[Terri]

Today at 09:22 PM jeffkrantz said this in Post #64 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691098#post691098)

I can surely understand why other people heard Job's question differently.  After all, who better to ask about Episcopalians than Episcopalians, but no, Job didn't do that.  Instead he asked people who don't know much about being an Episcopalian if the Episcopal church was a legitimate one.  "Legitimate?"  Pleeeeeeeeze.

If people read that as being prone to pass judgement, perhaps Job would do well to learn to ask in ways that are respectful of traditions about which he doesn't yet know anything.

JK



And you make my point about assumptions.  Why would you believe that Job did not think that Episcopalians would be answering him?

That people take such offense says more about them than it does about Job!!   :)

Being easily offended shows a lacking in the love department.  :)

 1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.






 

[Foundthelight]

Hello, my name is Willis Brown. I am new to this forum, this is my first post.

I have been reading this thread with great interest and some amusement. I was raised a Presbyterian, switched to Baptist for a while and am currently attending an Episcopal church.

All denominations have their own "twist" on the Bible and stress what they think is most important. As I have read and re-read the bible I can't say that any are totally right or totally wrong. Many different worship practices have sprung up in the last 2000 years since the coming of our Savior, Jesus of Nazareth. There are as many ways of worshiping Him as there are years since His first coming. We have to let the Holy Spirit guide us in our walk.

To me a Christian church has to exhibit the following:

1. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God must be the principal teaching.

2. The congregation must exhibit Christion love toward one another and those outside the church. A congregation full of backbiting and arguments is not walking in the way of the Lord. A congregation which is full of itself and feeling superior rather than humble is not walking in the way of the Lord.

3. The Epistles must be used to teach us how to live a Christian life. We are strengthened and guided by these letters today as the early church was. We ignore them at our peril.

4. The message of the Gospel is not to be held within the congregation but must be spread to those outside the congregation. Evangelize!

5. The priest/minister/pastor must preach that salvation comes through placing your faith in Christ alone, not in what church you attend. For it is only through the Son that we can reach the Father. Teaching that we were all automatically saved by the sacrifice of the Lord is just wrong. His sacrifice gives us the opportunity to be saved without the Law, through Grace.

Beyond that if there is liturgy, fine. If there isn't liturgy, fine. Whatever floats your boat. As far as Mary is concerned, look at the reverence held by Isreal and the Apostles toward Abraham, Moses, and Elija. What is wrong with feeling that same reverence toward the Mother of God? Or for that matter the Apostles?

But, We must be careful not to let new age influences creep in. I once heard the Rector of a church in Detroit prattle on on about how she could feel the trees and rocks cry out because of pollution. Trees and rocks don't have spirits to cry out.

Thanks for letting me prattle on in this fashion.

Yours in Christ

Willis

[Job_38]

Thanks for the answer.

However, I do have some questions, but those are for another time.

[jeffkrantz]

Yesterday at 04:52 AM Terri said this in Post #66 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691306#post691306)

That people take such offense says more about them than it does about Job!!   :)

Being easily offended shows a lacking in the love department.  :)

[/color][/size]




I'm sorry if I sounded offended.  I wasn't at all, just trying to explain how others might have been.  Funny how assumptions creep in, isn't it?

Perhaps assumption is more a problem for those who assume it's someone else's problem?

JK

[jeffkrantz]

Thanks, Willis, for your cogent list!

Makes perfect sense to me! Certainly seems to be what we strive to do (though, like any group, we fail some) in my (Episcopal) church.

JK

[Terri]

Yesterday at 10:09 PM jeffkrantz said this in Post #69 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=693758#post693758)

I'm sorry if I sounded offended.  I wasn't at all, just trying to explain how others might have been.  Funny how assumptions creep in, isn't it?

Perhaps assumption is more a problem for those who assume it's someone else's problem?

JK



 :D You assumed I was talking about you.

I wasn't!!!!!! :P 




 

[Caedmon]

4th March 2003 at 10:52 PM Terri said this in Post #66 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691306#post691306)

And you make my point about assumptions.  Why would you believe that Job did not think that Episcopalians would be answering him?

That people take such offense says more about them than it does about Job!! :)

Being easily offended shows a lacking in the love department. :)

No Terri, we are correcting out of Love :)

[Terri]

Today at 12:21 PM humblejoe said this in Post #72 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=694865#post694865)

No Terri, we are correcting out of Love :)



Well, I'm just correcting you out of Love!  ;)

"Correcting" out of anger is not Love!  :) 

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 


 

[Caedmon]

Today at 02:20 PM Terri said this in Post #73 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=695149#post695149)

Well, I'm just correcting you out of Love!  ;)

"Correcting" out of anger is not Love!  :) 

Who said I was angry in the way you're indicating? Besides, was Jesus angry when he whipped moneychangers and their animals out of the Temple? ;)

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 

"Love... always trusts..."

You don't trust that I'm correcting out of love, Terri? ;)

[Gabriel]

This thread has run it's course and being that the author asked that it be closed about 4 pages ago. :wave: