General Questions

[Shane Roach]

For the longest time I just assumed that Messianic Judaism was simply Jewish people who accepted Christ. I figured that they all still practiced Judaism just as early Jewish Christians did, while at the same time understanding the teaching that Gentiles need not become Jews, and likewise that Jews need not become like Gentiles, but each could both be Christians.

Then I bumped into a Messianic Jewish poster in the open forums who was non-Trinitarian. I came to these forums looking for a quick rebuttal to that view, and while I see that there is a sticky thread on the subject, just in general it appears that non-Trinitarian Messianic Jews are relatively common, which leads to my first question. Is this perception of mine accurate?

Secondly, is there anything any of you can point me towards that more or less follows the history of Messianic Jews, by which I mean those Jews from Israel at the time of Christ on to the present day. I note a thread about the split of 135, and perhaps that is the beginning of what I am asking about, but even after that, is there a distinct line of Christian Jews, or does anyone know the fate of the Christian Jews after that time, and how it relates to modern Messianic Judaism?

Book references would be appreciated as well.

Thank you for your time in advance, those who think to answer me. I appreciate it. I am a little busier these days than I had recently been, so am not here as much, but I will check on this thread as regularly as I may!

[Wags]

For the longest time I just assumed that Messianic Judaism was simply Jewish people who accepted Christ. I figured that they all still practiced Judaism just as early Jewish Christians did, while at the same time understanding the teaching that Gentiles need not become Jews, and likewise that Jews need not become like Gentiles, but each could both be Christians.

Then I bumped into a Messianic Jewish poster in the open forums who was non-Trinitarian. I came to these forums looking for a quick rebuttal to that view, and while I see that there is a sticky thread on the subject, just in general it appears that non-Trinitarian Messianic Jews are relatively common, which leads to my first question. Is this perception of mine accurate?

Secondly, is there anything any of you can point me towards that more or less follows the history of Messianic Jews, by which I mean those Jews from Israel at the time of Christ on to the present day. I note a thread about the split of 135, and perhaps that is the beginning of what I am asking about, but even after that, is there a distinct line of Christian Jews, or does anyone know the fate of the Christian Jews after that time, and how it relates to modern Messianic Judaism?

Book references would be appreciated as well.

Thank you for your time in advance, those who think to answer me. I appreciate it. I am a little busier these days than I had recently been, so am not here as much, but I will check on this thread as regularly as I may!

I woudn't say that non-tri messianics are all that common in the messianic population at large.

You can read about some of the history here:
1. Paul & the Early Church Fathers (http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Paul%26Fathers.pdf)
2. The Growing Split between Synagogue and Church in the 1st Century: the Fiscus Judaicus (http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/Last%20Fiscus%20Judaicus.pdf)

[Shane Roach]

Ah, thanks! :)

[Shane Roach]

Okay, after reading these I have an understanding of why Messianic Judaism would have become rare early on in the Church history, but I am still curious if there is any record of ongoing Messianic Jewish communities, or if modern Messianic Judaism is more or less a recent development?

[plum]

Well believing Jews are not a new phenomenon. the organizing of the congregations and ministries is pretty new, however. Like the MJAA and similar organizations are quite new, but Jewish believers go all the way back.

[Shane Roach]

Well believing Jews are not a new phenomenon. the organizing of the congregations and ministries is pretty new, however. Like the MJAA and similar organizations are quite new, but Jewish believers go all the way back.

While common sense would tend to have me agreeing with you, I am not finding much in the way of documentation of this view. Here again, if you have any references they would be much appreciated.

I read the Wikipedia articile and it appears their consensus that is being built establishes the more or less modern Messianic movement as originating in England in the late 1800's. I was not able to find a link to explain how one might trace Jewish followers of Christ back further than that.

Thanks, yet again, for your help and attention. :)

[yod]

I can't remember where I read it now but the original assembly of Jerusalem seems to have disappeared in southeastern Europe in the 13th Century by best estimate.

I recommend you check into Daniel Gruber's books.



http://www.elijahnet.net/

[HaNotsri]

Shane Roach,

Since the time of Jesus there have always been Jews who have been converted to Christianity one way or another (by force, security for ones well-being, or even by faith). But there hasn't been a continuous Jewish believing community as many Messianics would have you believe. A lot will say that Messianic Judaism is not a new faith, well in the relative scheme of things it is. The modern Hebrew Christian and Messianic movements only started really getting their feet off the ground after the haskalah (the enlightenment). Early pioneers included David Baron and Adolph Saphir and there was an Orthodox rabbi named R' Lichtenstein as well. Over the last century it has progressively developed into the modern Messianic movement (complete with all the cults that have arisen surrounding it).

There isn't a continuous movement of Jewish believers since the time of Jesus. However, there is a newer movement of Jewish and gentile (of which makes up the majority of "Messianic" believers) believers who are trying to resurrect the way that Jesus and his earlier followers may have lived. Both Judaism and Christianity have developed in the last 2,000 years in ways that it would impossible to replicate it exactly. But it's a good (and appreciated effort)

[Tishri1]

Okay, after reading these I have an understanding of why Messianic Judaism would have become rare early on in the Church history, but I am still curious if there is any record of ongoing Messianic Jewish communities, or if modern Messianic Judaism is more or less a recent development?I can tell you we all feel exceptionally privileged to be apart of something ABBA is doing in these end times...the more you research and study this the more you will probably see this as well...it all kinda fits together like a piece of the puzzel

[Charles YTK]

While common sense would tend to have me agreeing with you, I am not finding much in the way of documentation of this view. Here again, if you have any references they would be much appreciated.

I read the Wikipedia articile and it appears their consensus that is being built establishes the more or less modern Messianic movement as originating in England in the late 1800's. I was not able to find a link to explain how one might trace Jewish followers of Christ back further than that.

Thanks, yet again, for your help and attention. :)
With the Messianics being rejected by both the synagogue after the move to Yavneh, and the Christian faith which had become a Roman institution, it is easy to see why the Messiancs would need to stay well under the radar. Their very lives were in danger because of their belief. But we do know that they continued as Nazarenes, into the 4th century. Here is some historical documents for this.


4. Epiphanius.
When we come to Epiphanius (born and raised in Palestine), we finally get a by-name mention of the Nazarenes. His Panarion (generally known as the Refutation of All Heresies) was written during the period 374-376. Panarion 29 is a rather extensive treatment of his sources and data on the Nazarenes, and the salient facts about them are listed below:
a. The use both the Old and New Testaments, without excluding any books known to Epiphanius (7,2):
"For they use not only the New Testament but also the Old, like the Jews. For the Legislation and the Prophets and the Scriptures, which are called the Bible by the Jews, are not rejected by them as they are by those mentioned above [Manicheans, Marcionites, Gnostics]. "
b. They have a good knowledge of Hebrew and read the OT and at least one gospel in that language (7,4; 9,4):
"They a good mastery of the Hebrew language. For the entire Law and the Prophets and what is called the Scriptures, I mention the poetical books, Kings, Chronicles and Ester and all the others, are read by them in Hebrew as in the case with the Jews, of course."
"They have the entire Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew. It is carefully preserved by them in Hebrew letters."
c. They believe in the resurrection of the dead (7,3):
"For they also accept the resurrection of the dead "
d. They believe that God is the creator of all things (7,3):
"...and that everything has its origin in God"
e. They believe in One God and His Son Jesus Christ (remember the patristic defn. of divine Son!) (7,3; 7,5):
"They proclaim one God and his Son Jesus Christ."
"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things." (Note how significant this is--they did NOT differ from Christians in Christology! This demonstrates a High Christology on their part!).
f. They observe the Law of Moses (7,5; 5,4; 8,1ff)
"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things."
"By birth they are Jews and they dedicate themselves to the Law and submit to circumcision."
g. They are hated by the Jews and are officially ostracized in the synagogue prayer--probably the birkat ha-minim (9,2-3):
"However, they are very much hated by the Jews. For not only the Jewish children cherish hate against them but the people also stand up in the morning, at noon, and in the evening, three times a day and they pronounce curses and maledictions over them when they say their prayers in the synagogues. Three times a day they say: 'May God curse the Nazarenes.' For they are more hostile against them because they proclaim as Jews that Jesus is the Christ."
Pritz summarizes the data from the most important section of Epiphanius (Panarion 29,7) [NT:NJC: (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/bookabs.html#NT:NJC)44]:
"The data in this section present us with a body in every way 'orthodox' except for its adherence to the Law of Moses. If we remember that the Jewish Church of Jerusalem also kept the Law through the period covered by the books of Acts, then we have a picture of the earliest Jewish Christian community...The picture is not full, certainly, but what we are given in very way confirms the identity of the Nazarenes as the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem congregation."
Thus, Epiphanius is our first source on the Nazarenes, and he describes them as decidedly orthodox in all matters (including the deity of Christ), except that of observance of Jewish customs.

[Steve Petersen]

This is from the Encyclopaedia Judiaca article Christianity:

"A major difficulty in tracing the growth of Christianity from its beginnings as a Jewish messianic sect, and its relations to the various other normative-Jewish, sectarian-Jewish, and Christian-Jewish groups is presented by the fact that what ultimately became normative Christianity was originally but one among various contending Christian trends. Once the "gentile Christian" trend won out, and the teaching of Paul became accepted as expressing the doctrine of the Church, the Jewish Christian groups were pushed to the margin and ultimately excluded as heretical. Being rejected both by normative Judaism and the Church, they ultimately disappeared. Nevertheless, several Jewish Christian sects (such as the Nazarenes, Ebionites, Elchasaites, and others) existed for some time, and a few of them seem to have endured for several centuries. Some sects saw in Jesus mainly a prophet and not the "Christ," others seem to have believed in him as the Messiah, but did not draw the christological and other conclusions that subsequently became fundamental in the teaching of the Church (the divinity of the Christ, trinitarian conception of the Godhead, abrogation of the Law)."

The divinity of Jesus was by no means unanimously accepted by Jewish believers.

[zhilan]

Interestingly there have been communities of Christian believers who followed Jewish law for quite some time, often in pockets outside of the movement. For example, have you heard of the Sabbatarians? They were a group of Christians in Transylvania who adhered to Kosher laws, celbrated Jewish holidays and worshiped on Saturday. This was in the sixteenth century. Another example is the Subbotniki ("Sabbath worshippers" in Russia who became Christians while retaining much of their Jewish identity. I didn't know about this until reading a book for a class on Khazarian Jews and they had a chapter on Jewish Proselytism that talked about these groups. Very interesting!

[Shane Roach]

With the Messianics being rejected by both the synagogue after the move to Yavneh, and the Christian faith which had become a Roman institution, it is easy to see why the Messiancs would need to stay well under the radar. Their very lives were in danger because of their belief. But we do know that they continued as Nazarenes, into the 4th century. Here is some historical documents for this.


4. Epiphanius.
When we come to Epiphanius (born and raised in Palestine), we finally get a by-name mention of the Nazarenes. His Panarion (generally known as the Refutation of All Heresies) was written during the period 374-376. Panarion 29 is a rather extensive treatment of his sources and data on the Nazarenes, and the salient facts about them are listed below:
a. The use both the Old and New Testaments, without excluding any books known to Epiphanius (7,2):
"For they use not only the New Testament but also the Old, like the Jews. For the Legislation and the Prophets and the Scriptures, which are called the Bible by the Jews, are not rejected by them as they are by those mentioned above [Manicheans, Marcionites, Gnostics]. "
b. They have a good knowledge of Hebrew and read the OT and at least one gospel in that language (7,4; 9,4):
"They a good mastery of the Hebrew language. For the entire Law and the Prophets and what is called the Scriptures, I mention the poetical books, Kings, Chronicles and Ester and all the others, are read by them in Hebrew as in the case with the Jews, of course."
"They have the entire Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew. It is carefully preserved by them in Hebrew letters."
c. They believe in the resurrection of the dead (7,3):
"For they also accept the resurrection of the dead "
d. They believe that God is the creator of all things (7,3):
"...and that everything has its origin in God"
e. They believe in One God and His Son Jesus Christ (remember the patristic defn. of divine Son!) (7,3; 7,5):
"They proclaim one God and his Son Jesus Christ."
"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things." (Note how significant this is--they did NOT differ from Christians in Christology! This demonstrates a High Christology on their part!).
f. They observe the Law of Moses (7,5; 5,4; 8,1ff)
"Only in this respect they differ from the Jews and Christians: with the Jews they do not agree because of their belief in Christ, with the Christians because they are trained in the Law, in circumcision, the Sabbath, and the other things."
"By birth they are Jews and they dedicate themselves to the Law and submit to circumcision."
g. They are hated by the Jews and are officially ostracized in the synagogue prayer--probably the birkat ha-minim (9,2-3):
"However, they are very much hated by the Jews. For not only the Jewish children cherish hate against them but the people also stand up in the morning, at noon, and in the evening, three times a day and they pronounce curses and maledictions over them when they say their prayers in the synagogues. Three times a day they say: 'May God curse the Nazarenes.' For they are more hostile against them because they proclaim as Jews that Jesus is the Christ."
Pritz summarizes the data from the most important section of Epiphanius (Panarion 29,7) [NT:NJC: (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/bookabs.html#NT:NJC)44]:
"The data in this section present us with a body in every way 'orthodox' except for its adherence to the Law of Moses. If we remember that the Jewish Church of Jerusalem also kept the Law through the period covered by the books of Acts, then we have a picture of the earliest Jewish Christian community...The picture is not full, certainly, but what we are given in very way confirms the identity of the Nazarenes as the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem congregation."
Thus, Epiphanius is our first source on the Nazarenes, and he describes them as decidedly orthodox in all matters (including the deity of Christ), except that of observance of Jewish customs.


Very helpfull, thanks! :) Where did this quote come from again?

[Shane Roach]

Indeed, thanks to all who have posted here to help me. More sources and so forth will be appreciated. :)